The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: RandyT on November 13, 2006, 10:36:35 pm
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Most of my testing to this point has been with Arkanoid, thinking it was the king of spinner resolution hogs, but then I tried Revenge of DOH.
It's a great game, better than Arkanoid IMHO, but it appears to be using the Arkanoid geared spinner at 2x ! To be played correctly, this title requires an encoder wheel with a whopping 243 apertures when used with a modern 4x optical interface. This is most likely in order to maintain it's 120 degree turn to screen traverse ratio, while having the in-game ability to make the paddle smaller, meaning a need for more possible positions.
My assumptions are that the game code is actually scaling the input in order to use the extra resolution when it needs it. It could also be maintaining an internal paddle position for ball reactions that is greater than the on-screen resolution (although I'm a bit doubtful that the latter is happening.)
Anyone know what the real scoop is on this title and how it is using all that data? Urebel perhaps?
In any event, it seems like there is a new benchmark for high res spinner titles now....
RandyT
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D'oh! :banghead:
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I have both games in the same cabinet switching with a parallel port switch, sharing a spinner. I can tell you that the vaus travels much faster in DOH than in Arkanoid, which to me seems to indicate that if emulated properly, you'd need less turns for DOH to be tolerable. After playing DOH, it's tough to switch to arkanoid just because everything seems so sluggish (I still sometimes switch it back for the newbies, though :P )
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I have both games in the same cabinet switching with a parallel port switch, sharing a spinner. I can tell you that the vaus travels much faster in DOH than in Arkanoid, which to me seems to indicate that if emulated properly, you'd need less turns for DOH to be tolerable. After playing DOH, it's tough to switch to arkanoid just because everything seems so sluggish (I still sometimes switch it back for the newbies, though :P )
I'm assuming you are talking about the original boards and a real Arkanoid spinner control here, yes?
If so, it sounds like you are saying that the range of motion is no longer 120 degrees, as it was with Arkanoid, rather something else?
Am I understanding you correctly? How far do you need to turn the knob for the Vaus to get from one side of the screen to the other (at it's normal size) with DOH?
Thanks for the info,
RandyT
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I have both games in the same cabinet switching with a parallel port switch, sharing a spinner. I can tell you that the vaus travels much faster in DOH than in Arkanoid, which to me seems to indicate that if emulated properly, you'd need less turns for DOH to be tolerable. After playing DOH, it's tough to switch to arkanoid just because everything seems so sluggish (I still sometimes switch it back for the newbies, though :P )
Was the cabinet originally a DOH, Arkanoid or something else?
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Hey RandyT,
Just an FYI, The new SpinTrak Controller which is a joint venture new product between Ultimarc & SlikStik has already met that benchmark. It has been designed to and delivers a 250 ampeture rate at one complete rotation. It can easily handle DOH and Arkanoid no problem and is the highest resolution spinner ever manufactured.
There hasn’t been an official announcement as of yet, but this can be considered as one. It is now available on the Ultimarc website and will soon be available on the SlikStik website as well.
Features:
• Two modes of operation:
• Can be used as a lightweight Super High Resolution Low-Inertia Trackwheel control as used in "Arkanoid"
• Can also be used as a spinner with the addition of one of two sizes of fly-weight to provide inertia giving long spin-times
• The highest-resolution rotary control ever produced for arcade gaming use.
• Comes with optional choice of Spinner Tops made by SlikStik which are the same design and quality of the renowned SlikStik Tornado Spinner.
• Resolution of 1000 transitions per revolution makes this the only control ever to match the Arkanoid Trackwheel without noisy gearing.
• Precision dual-graticule optics as used on industrial shaft-encoders. Uses two etched Mylar optical grids.
• Sealed unit to prevent dust ingress to maintain precision accuracy.
• Dual sealed ball-bearing races give the ultimate in smooth control.
• One-Piece bearing housing/faceplate CNC machined from a solid alloy billet
• Available in two versions, for direct connection to USB, or for connection to our Opti-PAC or Mini-PAC interfaces.
• Usage not limited to gaming! Also suitable for precision control applications, CNC interfacing and other rotary measurement applications.
In addition it has a very small 2" X 2" installation footprint, can be fitted with 2 different size flyweights for different inertia and spin times, and uses a special version of SlikStik spinner tops.
(http://www.ultimarc.com/images/spintrack3.jpg)
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Hey RandyT,
Just an FYI, The new SpinTrak Controller which is a joint venture new product between Ultimarc & SlikStik has already met that benchmark. It has been designed to and delivers a 250 ampeture rate at one complete rotation. It can easily handle DOH and Arkanoid no problem and is the highest resolution spinner ever manufactured.
Hey Christian,
Didn't you state publicly that resolution wasn't important?
Just curious, how do you adjust that for different thickness panels? No offense, but I am holding something in my hand that will be making spinner manufacturers need to update the claims on their websites ;)
Should be out in about a week.
RandyT
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RandyT,
No, just your previous claims of probable features. The shaft is set for 3/4" wood installation. Cant wait to see what you come out with.
Hey by the way, what ever happened to that rendering of that token spinner top you posted some months ago that never came to pass?
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"why can't we all just get along? " :'(
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(http://www.ultimarc.com/images/spintrack3.jpg)
This thing looks nice! Looks just like a skateboard wheel bearing at the base. If it is I'm getting this spinner as I will have plenty of replacements!
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2" x 2" footprint + high resolution = :notworthy:
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I once criticized Randy for being snarky in a competitor's thread, and said what a turn off it was for me as a potential customer, and I'd be a total hypocrite if I didn't turn around and back him when someone else does the same thing.
It's really distasteful, and a crummy way to get attention for your product. Make your own announcement.
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Cant wait to see what you come out with.
You probably won't like it. But I think it will have a following. ;)
Hey by the way, what ever happened to that rendering of that token spinner top you posted some months ago that never came to pass?
That's one of the reasons we have a new machinist on board. I keep my prices low, so that sometimes means dealing with talented people who don't have much ambition. We have finally found someone now who can meet our needs, and that's going to mean some cool things for the future.
That knob changed directions after a few discoveries along the way anyway. The upcoming one will have added functionality, as well as maintaining most of the eye-pleasing look of the original. I won't do a rendering of this one, as the real deal will be here in a couple of weeks..
RandyT
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I have never jumped in on these threads where disputes break out and I know in the past that Randy has appeared to look hotheaded, but I think he is just really passionate about his products and maybe takes things too personally sometimes, but even when angry, he always tells the truth and stays on topic.
SlikStik on the other hand, this is just total utter crap; thread stealing, baiting and insulting all at once. You are one Class A jerk (as if I didn't already know this.) I don't care how good your product is, I won't buy it.
Man oh man, I can't believe that I have taken sides in this fight. I have always had a personal rule, from way back to BBS and Usenet days, never to engage in these fights, oh well, I am in a cranky mood today.
BTW, Randy, compared to previous posts where you would get angry (often justifiable) your response here was very measured and classy.
I don't know if extra resolution beyond your original Turbo-Twist would be helpful, but I have never had a moment where it didn't perform perfect for me in all of the games I play (including Arkanoid.)
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This is one of the unfortunate evils of the online forum. When business desicions start to be made off of weird emotion because of this type of stuff...man it is tough! I have been in such a similar position as these guys and it sucks!! I lost everything because of a super competitive attitude mixed with very poor decision making as a result. It is so had not to get caught up in it though. When here you are chatting with your competition and your whole market gets to see the conversation and vise-versa. I don't envy you guys for this situation. I wish the best for all of you though and hope your end result is better than mine was!
Peace brothers!
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I have never jumped in on these threads where disputes break out and I know in the past that Randy has appeared to look hotheaded, but I think he is just really passionate about his products and maybe takes things too personally sometimes, but even when angry, he always tells the truth and stays on topic.
LOL! :laugh2: Then why start now? Your commenting on how passionate he is (Are you running for comedian of the year?) 10 hours a day including weekends at the SlikStik for 6+ years is passion pal.
SlikStik on the other hand, this is just total utter crap; thread stealing, baiting and insulting all at once. You are one Class A jerk (as if I didn't already know this.) I don't care how good your product is, I won't buy it.
This is no where even close to thread stealing, it was in rebut to the statement about no spinner having enough resolution for DOH or it being a new benchmark that needs to be met, and that our new spinner exists and that it has more than enough resolution for the game Randy mentions. Insulting, umm check yourself :tool:
Man oh man, I can't believe that I have taken sides in this fight. I have always had a personal rule, from way back to BBS and Usenet days, never to engage in these fights, oh well, I am in a cranky mood today.
I was also a BBS and Usenet user back in the day and your point is? :dunno
BTW, Randy, compared to previous posts where you would get angry (often justifiable) your response here was very measured and classy.
Hmm, if you kiss anymore arse you might get a free RandyT shirt (Hehe I made a new product Randy”T” shirt) :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :tool:
I don't know if extra resolution beyond your original Turbo-Twist would be helpful, but I have never had a moment where it didn't perform perfect for me in all of the games I play (including Arkanoid.)
Umm the Turbo Twist spinner cannot play DOH, in replicating the original DOH spinner because its resolution isn’t high enough, and that’s what is being discussed here, not Arkanoid :banghead:
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Yet another reason I steered clear of both of these guys and bought an Apache Blackhawk. These threads are mind-blowing!
Eric.
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This is no where even close to thread stealing, it was in rebut to the statement about no spinner having enough resolution for DOH or it being a new benchmark that needs to be met
Christian, please quote where I stated that. This thread was an exploration of how the internal code of DOH uses the data, not a product comparison.
It was intended to see if there really is a standard to be met there. So far, I'm not convinced that there is. Only someone with a real machine, or the ability to pick through the ROM code, will be able to tell us for sure.
Umm the Turbo Twist spinner cannot play DOH, in replicating the original DOH spinner because its resolution isn’t high enough, and that’s what is being discussed here, not Arkanoid :banghead:
That may be what you are discussing, but it doesn't seem to be true. I fired it up with the old version of the TurboTwist and increased the sensitivity. It still has single pixel precision over what appears to be the same amount of rotation (there is a legion of TurboTwist users who can verify this for you.)
That tells me that the internal code of the game is dividing (there are only so many positions available for the Vaus due to the screen resolution.) So, unless the range of motion has drastically changed, the extra resolution looks like it is being discarded and may be unimportant.
Something else of interest;
This ROM is said to have problems. The cocktail version has 2 spinners, but the stand up has only one. A trip into the service mode shows that both P1 and P2 spinner values change when the spinner is rotated, with the P1 values going up in increments of 2 for every one of player 2. Something is broken in this title, and it seems to be the input code. I'm really suspecting that DOH and the original Arkanoid are using the same controls scheme, but DOH's is broken in MAME. This says to me that increasing the sensitivity will allow perfect gameplay, even with an original TurboTwist.
But I'm still waiting for the definitive answer on this to know for sure. Does anyone have anything useful to add to this discussion so that we might be able to get to the bottom of the anomaly?
Yet another reason I steered clear of both of these guys and bought an Apache Blackhawk. These threads are mind-blowing!
The thread I started had nothing to do with any particular spinner outside of the requirements of the game in question and the modern day equivalent. If you believe the discussion has degenerated, would it not have been prudent to avoid the furtherance of that issue rather than helping to fuel it?
RandyT
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I just want to throw in support for Randy in this thread. Christian is way out of line here without a doubt. Randy is always around here offering support to anyone and everyone where he can. Christian only shows up to plug products, insult competitors, and berate people who question him.
It is too bad that Ultimarc now has to be drug into the slikstick mudpile now too...
On that note, I'll also throw in my support for Andy at Ultimarc just for good measure.
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I realize this thread has been hijacked, but let's get back to the matter at hand:
The spinner was originally from an arkanoid. I would estimate 150 deg to go end to end in arkanoid, and 75 deg to go end to end in revenge of doh. The motion is still very smooth in doh, so i think that alone is pretty fair confirmation that arkanoid is the one that is intentionally dropping information.
<stoking fire>
Christian,
Wouldn't starting a thread announcing your product be a slightly more productive than dumping it in the middle of a thread started by RandyT (who, by the way, is a contributing member to these forums)? I don't know what this or any of your other pissing matches are about - - but whether you believe it or not, you always seem to be the person instigating.
In all fairness, Randy can get away with a lot more, as he posts in a lot of peoples' topics. I rarely see you jump in to give someone advice as to how to fix their refresh rate on robotron or their jammed coin mech. The only time I see posts from you is when you're trying to kick either a competitor or a customer in the teeth. You really can't blame any of us for thinking Randy is more "passionate" about the hobby than you, and that you are, as you like to say, the tool.
</stoking fire>
I have both games in the same cabinet switching with a parallel port switch, sharing a spinner. I can tell you that the vaus travels much faster in DOH than in Arkanoid, which to me seems to indicate that if emulated properly, you'd need less turns for DOH to be tolerable. After playing DOH, it's tough to switch to arkanoid just because everything seems so sluggish (I still sometimes switch it back for the newbies, though :P )
I'm assuming you are talking about the original boards and a real Arkanoid spinner control here, yes?
If so, it sounds like you are saying that the range of motion is no longer 120 degrees, as it was with Arkanoid, rather something else?
Am I understanding you correctly? How far do you need to turn the knob for the Vaus to get from one side of the screen to the other (at it's normal size) with DOH?
Thanks for the info,
RandyT
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I'd like to throw in support for .. ME!!!
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SlikStik posts - :spam:
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Christian, you really should think about what you are trying to achieve with a post before you press the "Post" button. Or is it really your intention to run customers away from you?
On the other hand, what was the point of this thread anyway? Yet another "product announcement" for a product that doesn't yet exist?
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I just want to throw in support for Randy in this thread. Christian is way out of line here without a doubt. Randy is always around here offering support to anyone and everyone where he can. Christian only shows up to plug products, insult competitors, and berate people who question him.
It is too bad that Ultimarc now has to be drug into the slikstick mudpile now too...
I too have to throw my support behind Randy and GGG here....
Every time Christian posts here he's either insulting his competitors or insulting members of this forum. It doesn't seem to matter how many times we try to explain it to him, that he's putting off his pottential customers, it doesn't seem to sink in. This is preciselly why I will NEVER EVER buy any of his products.
As for Andy at Ultimarc.... His quality and service record is pretty perfect! (until now) Damned good luck to him actually getting product delivered and promises met from Christian. The number of reports of appauling customer service from him are astounding.
Andy if you're reading this then, you really need to consider who you're involving yourself with. You're risking your own reputation here especially when Christian comes in here insulting people again and again and again.
On that note, I'll also throw in my support for Andy at Ultimarc just for good measure.
He needs all the support he can get if he's involved with slikstick... Maybe we should club together and buy him a few sessions with a therapist? I'm just not sure what he was thinking here.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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It’s pretty simple really, but why try to make something into something it isn’t. I could be a kiss A*S and jump in here 24/7 like RandyT does answering every possible question with a helpful answer to every BYOAC members post with its sole intention to drum up more business and look like a super hero but instead of being a message board rat I tend to think more along the lines of letting the products speak for themselves.
RandyT made a blanket statement without actually stating that there is a product that is already in production and for sale that already exceeds that specification and I made a public “albeit not in its own post” statement confirming its existence. In fact the new Spintrac spinner is by far the highest resolution spinner to date at 250 apertures and will play Arkanoid and DOH exactly as it was meant to be.
RandyT followers come out in droves with total crap comments, you’re absolutely correct; I did defend my self. Don’t get a fat head Randy, there aren’t many of them.
It is what it is; SlikStik manufactures the highest quality components for this industry and is always coming out with new improved and radical components for arcade systems.
Many BYOAC dwellers own and use SlikStik products, and confirm their proven quality.
Fozzy, your comments are simply ludicrous, you have no info to back up your statements and you have no clue as to what you are talking about.
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I could be a kiss A*S and jump in here 24/7 like RandyT does answering every possible question with a helpful answer to every BYOAC members post with its sole intention to drum up more business and look like a super hero but instead of being a message board rat I tend to think more along the lines of letting the products speak for themselves.
Christian,
I think that's the first time I've been called that here :)
But in any case, if you take stroll through the archives, you'll see that I have been a contributing member here LONG before I ever had a thing for sale. I've been involved in this hobby for decades, and I don't view it as a "money grab" like a lot of vendors do. If you think that is who I am, then you obviously don't know me.
On the other hand, what was the point of this thread anyway? Yet another "product announcement" for a product that doesn't yet exist?
Not sure where you got that from, but until now, when the spinner resolution issue pops up, it seemed like Arkanoid was at everyone's lips. DOH surpasses that requirement and I am trying to figure out why, seeing as the graphic resolution of the game is the same. These things have to be considered when building controls, and last I checked, that was the theme of the site.
I realize this thread has been hijacked, but let's get back to the matter at hand:
The spinner was originally from an arkanoid. I would estimate 150 deg to go end to end in arkanoid, and 75 deg to go end to end in revenge of doh. The motion is still very smooth in doh, so i think that alone is pretty fair confirmation that arkanoid is the one that is intentionally dropping information.
Thank you. The last calculation I did put Arkanoid at 120 degrees, so DOH is probably half of that at 60. Arkanoid isn't really dropping info, it's apparently just not collecting all that it could from the control. I'm still doing some calculations, but it looks like DOH may actually be collecting it and using it to reduce the turn to travel ratio.
Time to crunch some more numbers.....
RandyT
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That has just got to be the bloody limit, now he's accusing RandyT of contributing in a helpful way ??? ::) :dizzy:
BTW Sorry for missing the point of the thread. Hope you get the answers you're looking for.
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I realize this thread has been hijacked, but let's get back to the matter at hand:
The spinner was originally from an arkanoid. I would estimate 150 deg to go end to end in arkanoid, and 75 deg to go end to end in revenge of doh. The motion is still very smooth in doh, so i think that alone is pretty fair confirmation that arkanoid is the one that is intentionally dropping information.
Thank you. The last calculation I did put Arkanoid at 120 degrees, so DOH is probably half of that at 60. Arkanoid isn't really dropping info, it's apparently just not collecting all that it could from the control. I'm still doing some calculations, but it looks like DOH may actually be collecting it and using it to reduce the turn to travel ratio.
Time to crunch some more numbers.....
RandyT
Theoretically, wouldn't this mean that you could double the (software) sensitivity of the spinner in arkanoid while losing zero accuracy?
I still don't understand how in a MAME context this changes anything. the old spinner had X teeth. if DOH uses all of them, then for ACCURATE emulation, wouldn't you need X teeth? Hardware is hardware, right?
btw - - I'd like to point out that i have never purchased a GGG product, or a slikstik product. I only know what i read.
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RandyT, let me know when you figure out this Arkanoid spinner thing. The lady of the house will love you for it :)
/threads like this just remind me never to buy SlikStik...
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RandyT isnt a Saint either people. As far as I remember, he has barged in on others
product announcements before. His comments to other vendors, and even board
members has contained some pretty nasty things. And overall, his attitude can
be just as bad if not worse, than all of the other vendors.
I dont blame Christian for his hostile post, because RandyT Im sure, has been
hostile twords him in the past... (or used non hostile, but provoking
tactics)
However, as the saying goes.. "Two wrongs dont make a right".
Who will be the bigger man? Will any of these vendors ever Grow up?
Stay Tuned...
:P
Well, at least we have good competition that will improove products much
faster hehe
My money goes to the best products. I could care less how bad thier
attitudes are.. though I do hope things change for them. Thier
baggage must be pretty heavy to lug arround all the time.
And thier hyper inflated egos just kill everything arround them.
A little 'humble pie' goes a long way.
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RandyT,
No, just your previous claims of probable features. The shaft is set for 3/4" wood installation. Cant wait to see what you come out with.
Hey by the way, what ever happened to that rendering of that token spinner top you posted some months ago that never came to pass?
Not one to take sides here but isn't the pot calling the kettle black?
Brandon,
I guess great minds do think alike. Here are some early photos of our WIP version of the SlikStik Tornado spinner DOT style that we have been working on, it employs the same exact theory in the diagram you posted.
Spring tensions and vertical glide options are being developed as we speak.
This project has now been accelerated and will be released as soon as it is perfected.
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I could be a kiss A*S and jump in here 24/7 like RandyT does answering every possible question with a helpful answer to every BYOAC members post with its sole intention to drum up more business and look like a super hero but instead of being a message board rat I tend to think more along the lines of letting the products speak for themselves.
Wow. Just...wow. This makes me suspect an actual personality disorder of some kind.
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I have Tornado and I'm not able to play on Arkanoid, it's crap (I tested different analog settings). I remember Arkanoid arcade machine where spinner works perfectly, beautiful. Only one game where Tornado is really good is Pole Position.
I want to ask where is difference between SpinTrak and Tornado? Can someone tested it on Arkanoid, Plump Pop or others breakout?
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... (or used non hostile, but provoking tactics)
You mean like the one you just used? I'm a real person too, Steve, and real people react when provoked. You and I have a history that involves debates over technical issues where you are frequently incorrect, and never seem to do the research or admit when you are mistaken . And because I bring light to that fact, you are part of a very few select individuals who ride me every chance they get and this post is no exception. You shouldn' t be surprised when the "kid gloves" get removed for you, and that doesn't make my interactions with you as an individual, representative of how I interact with other, more reasonable members of this community.
As for whether I am as "bad or worse than all of the other vendors", I think your view may be a little biased.
And for anyone still interested in the original topic, I'm still on it. Just got sidetracked by some parts sourcing issues that kept me up all night....need coffee first......
RandyT
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And for anyone still interested in the original topic, I'm still on it. Just got sidetracked by some parts sourcing issues that kept me up all night....need coffee first......
RandyT
Saw you posted and was hoping it was something technical... oh well. If you have anything else you want me to figure out, let me know.
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Saw you posted and was hoping it was something technical... oh well. If you have anything else you want me to figure out, let me know.
Yeah, sorry. Got my coffee now :P
Here's something quick: Yes, if the hardware is not using all of the information it is collecting, either by dividing it or discarding it, increasing the sensitivity in MAME will still allow for "near perfect", if not completely authentic gameplay.
However, MAME limits the upward scaling to 2.55 x of the original, which may or may not be enough to get it there. This in turn, may be addressed through mouse speed settings in windows, but that starts getting messy. More info shortly. :)
EDIT:
Also, tooth count on one does not always equal tooth count on another, as it can be interpreted at 1x, 2x or 4x depending on the hardware. From what I can tell (need more research) DOH appears to be using 2x, while Arkanoid uses 1x.
RandyT
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Also, tooth count on one does not always equal tooth count on another, as it can be interpreted at 1x, 2x or 4x depending on the hardware. DOH appears to be using 2x, while Arkanoid uses 1x.
Sorry, you're losing me on this "hardware" thing... they both have identical hardware (a 2 led spinner) connected to the L and R of a jamma harness. To me, this means that there are the same number of pulses being sent to the PCB per revolution. As Doh does not jump more than one pixel at a time, I would argue that DOH uses 1x and Arkanoid uses 1/2x on the software side... 2x seems, to me, to indicate that DOH skips, which it doesn't.
If you're saying that you can use 3 led's to get double the sensitivity out of a wheel than with 2, I'd agree that you'd only need 1/2 the teeth that an arkanoid spinner has.
Hmm - Maybe we should categorize spinners by pulses per revolution, not teeth?
Or is this just a tomayto-tomahto thing, and i've missed the point completely?
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Is the hardware truly identical or could the gearing be different?
Consider that the # of apertures passing by is what makes a difference (and sample rate of course)? For example, you could have a large wheel that spins at one rate, or have a very small wheel with less holes in it, geared such that it spins very fast and the result is the same # of apertures passing over the sensor...
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RandyT,
I am confused about what you are confused about.
davieboynj says that the angle is about half.
You think Doh is using a higher resolution, 2x.
It seems that you figured everything out in that Doh uses 2x and Arkanoid uses 1x.
And davieboynj has basically confirmed it by testing his boards.
I've been following the thread, but I'm not sure what else are you looking for?
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Also, tooth count on one does not always equal tooth count on another, as it can be interpreted at 1x, 2x or 4x depending on the hardware. DOH appears to be using 2x, while Arkanoid uses 1x.
Sorry, you're losing me on this "hardware" thing... they both have identical hardware (a 2 led spinner) connected to the L and R of a jamma harness. To me, this means that there are the same number of pulses being sent to the PCB per revolution.
The difference is how the same "pulses" are decoded. ("Pulse" is the wrong term though, as it implies a limited time on, while the actual signal is on or off depending on if the sensor is blocked or not, and can be steady on if it doesn't move.) Remember that while PC mice decode the signals themselves and send the decoded info to the PC, (most) arcade spinners and TBs send the raw signals to the PCB. So the PCB does the decoding.
This is how one arcade game can be 1x and the other 2x with the same spinner; different PCBs decoding differently.
I can go into the details of 1x, 2x, 4x, but to quote parapharse MEASUREMENTS & CONTROL, September 1988, Gerald S. Gordon (http://www.gpi-encoders.com/Square_vs_Pulse_Waves.pdf):
"... quadrature square-waves contain 4 edges [or states] per [tooth]. Simple circuitry can be used to detect 1, 2, or 4 of these edges [states]."
Older tech detected on edges, current tech does state changes, but both can do the 1x, 2x, or 4x per tooth.
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Also, tooth count on one does not always equal tooth count on another, as it can be interpreted at 1x, 2x or 4x depending on the hardware. DOH appears to be using 2x, while Arkanoid uses 1x.
Sorry, you're losing me on this "hardware" thing... they both have identical hardware (a 2 led spinner) connected to the L and R of a jamma harness. To me, this means that there are the same number of pulses being sent to the PCB per revolution. As Doh does not jump more than one pixel at a time, I would argue that DOH uses 1x and Arkanoid uses 1/2x on the software side... 2x seems, to me, to indicate that DOH skips, which it doesn't.
A quadrature based optical device (spinner, mouse, trackball) can deliver up to 4x the number of apertures (teeth) in actual movement data. This is real data, not interpolated. But to get 4x, the hardware needs to be very fast, as the computations are more complex than the ones to get 2x the movement data, with 1x being the simplest.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because this will skew the conclusions immensely, but from what I have heard discussed, the Arkanoid spinner has no logic on board and is just sending pulse data as any other spinner would. That means that there has to be a piece of hardware (with appropriate firmware) somewhere further up the chain that converts these pulses to movement data. The pulse waveforms are the same in both instances, but how they are interpreted is apparently different between the two machines. Because DOH has a smaller range of movement over the same travel of the Vaus, it indicates that more movement data is present and being acted upon than in Arkanoid.
Some of this research on Arkanoid was done by 2600 and u_rebel, and at the end of the day it was decided that Arkanoid used a 1x decoding based on the code of the ROM. When all of the numbers are crunched, (number of apertures, screen res, number of Vaus positions, ect) this adds up to 132 degree knob turn to 1 screen traverse. If DOH has a 66 degree turn to screen traverse, which is in line with your observation on the real hardware, then it stands to reason that the code in DOH is acting on twice the amount of movement data as Arkanoid, given that all other factors are equal.
What does this mean for us? If we know that Arkanoid needs a modern (4x decoding) spinner with at least 122 apertures, then we can assume that DOH requires one with 244 apertures minimum for absolute authentic gameplay. Christian was correct in stating that the first version of the TurboTwist is below this number. That means that in order to play DOH at the 66 degree knob turn to screen traverse relationship, the MAME sensitivity level would need to be increased to 187%, which is fortunately within MAME's sensitivity scale, but increases the granularity of movement (skips every other on-screen position). In all fairness, it should also be mentioned that other spinner controls with apertures in the 48 to 50 range would require a sensitivity setting in the 500% area, which is twice what MAME allows, but even if it were possible, would cause the Vaus to jump 5 positions at a time.
The other option with either variety of spinner is to not introduce granularity issues, rather change the amount of movement required at the knob. WIth DOH, using a spinner with a 130 aperture encoder wheel at 100% (no position skipping) would change the knob range to 124 degrees, which is a little smaller than that of Arkanoid, which makes it playable, but not authentic. However a spinner with 50 apertures would require a range of 320 degrees (again, with no position skipping) which is almost one complete revolution to get the Vaus from one side of the screen to the other. As one would expect, there is a larger issue there.
The best approach to handle this situation, outside of buying a new spinner, would probably be to find an area in-between larger granularity and movement range that you feel you can live with.
Is the hardware truly identical or could the gearing be different?
Consider that the # of apertures passing by is what makes a difference (and sample rate of course)? For example, you could have a large wheel that spins at one rate, or have a very small wheel with less holes in it, geared such that it spins very fast and the result is the same # of apertures passing over the sensor...
Another possible variable, but my hunch is that they are the same. Re-tooling costs money and DOH is faster paced, so the original control is probably the same, just being decoded at 2x.
I am confused about what you are confused about....It seems that you figured everything out in that Doh uses 2x and Arkanoid uses 1x....And davieboynj has basically confirmed it by testing his boards.
I've been following the thread, but I'm not sure what else are you looking for?
I'm not confused or looking for anything else. I've been at that conclusion for a while. However, I think there might only be a handful of people reading this that even know what 1x and 2x mean in this context. It's my intention to bring other readers along for the ride so they understand what all this is about, and why it can be important. Without all of the numbers, there's no way to think about it. Putting the numbers together is what took the time (and I'm trying to be as accurate as I can :) )
Sorry if I went back over what 2600 and U_rebel wrote. This has been in the editor for a while and I'm not going back and changing it ;) Also, I modified a couple of numbers after going back through my notes. This should be pretty accurate, but if someone finds otherwise, please feel free to jump in.
Thanks,
RandyT
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definitely helpful... i had no idea that the decoder was solely on the pcb, and that different read methods could make higher resolution from the same number of teeth. right there that clears pretty-much everything up.
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because this will skew the conclusions immensely, but from what I have heard discussed, the Arkanoid spinner has no logic on board and is just sending pulse data as any other spinner would.
I can confirm that one for you. Nothing on the optical PCB but the emitter/receiver pairs and a resistor or two. I have to assume both games used the same hardware, as I'm pretty sure Doh was sold as a conversion kit for Arkanoid.
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I could be a kiss A*S and jump in here 24/7 like RandyT does answering every possible question with a helpful answer
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Don’t get a fat head Randy, there aren’t many of them.
Oh, so it is better to BE an A*S and jump in without helpful answers ?
Don't BE a fat head, Christian.
Cheers.
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Next question;
Who has an Arkanoid control with the original knob still on it?
What is the diameter?
Thanks,
RandyT
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Next question;
Who has an Arkanoid control with the original knob still on it?
What is the diameter?
Thanks,
RandyT
I'll see if I can't dig it out later tonight.
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Next question;
Who has an Arkanoid control with the original knob still on it?
What is the diameter?
Thanks,
RandyT
I'll see if I can't dig it out later tonight.
Was an answer for this established ??
I'm wondering how the knob diameter compares with the Big Blue or TokenTop knobs on Randy's TurboTwist 2 spinner.
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...with the recent discussion of SlickSlick's forum being closed, I find the irony of this post popping up to be as thick as it comes. I wonder if Christian has any opinions of the TT2 or the Token Knob now?
I too would like to know why DOH's speed doubled on an Arkanoid knob when switching between the two?
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I too would like to know why DOH's speed doubled on an Arkanoid knob when switching between the two?
We've talked about this before on this forum, but to rehash:
The optical "sensor" produces a "Quadrature" signal. The quadrature has four possible states for every move equal to one tooth-gap combo. Arcade spinners (almost always) send the raw quadrature signal directly to arcade PCB. Quadrature can be decoded at 1x, 2x or 4x per cycle (or per tooth). The newer DOH PCB can decode at 4x, while the older Arkanoid PCB decodes at 2x. Thus the "same" hardware can have different speeds.
FWIW, in very general terms, the very old arcade hardware could decode at 1x (atari football, pole position, etc), all the modern hardware decode at 4x (including PC mice), and 2x was the stepping stone. The changes started in the early 80's with the then-new games at either 1x or 2x. The late 80's to mid 90's saw 2x & 4x.
PC mice are different in that they decode the quadrature signal and send the decoded info to the PC. Except for rarely usued protocols like BusMouse; IOW serial, PS/2, & USB decode in-mouse. PS/2 & USB have always been 4x. (I don't know about serial always being 4x, but I'm pretty sure it was.)
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The newer DOH PCB can decode at 4x, while the older Arkanoid PCB decodes at 2x.
Wouldn't that be DOH at 2X and Arkanoid at 1X?
PS/2 & USB have always been 4x. (I don't know about serial always being 4x, but I'm pretty sure it was.)
This is not always a given across the axes. With some "off the shelf" mouse controller chips, the Z is decoded at 2x, while X and Y are at 4x.
RandyT
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Next question;
Who has an Arkanoid control with the original knob still on it?
What is the diameter?
Thanks,
RandyT
I'll see if I can't dig it out later tonight.
Was an answer for this established ??
I'm wondering how the knob diameter compares with the Big Blue or TokenTop knobs on Randy's TurboTwist 2 spinner.
Ended up answering it in another thread:
These look awfully nice, good job on the button-hole mounting setup. Stellar idea!
(Hey Kremmit! How about that knob measurement from the original? Heh)
RandyT
Oops, sorry, forgot about that. Been really busy lately, blah blah blah. I don't have any calipers handy, but my super-scientific eyeball and tape measure says it's one and 9/16 inches; or 40mm.
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The newer DOH PCB can decode at 4x, while the older Arkanoid PCB decodes at 2x.
Wouldn't that be DOH at 2X and Arkanoid at 1X?
D'oh! ;D
PS/2 & USB have always been 4x. (I don't know about serial always being 4x, but I'm pretty sure it was.)
This is not always a given across the axes. With some "off the shelf" mouse controller chips, the Z is decoded at 2x, while X and Y are at 4x.
Right. I forget the Z axis when I find it convenient. ;)