The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: AndyWarne on April 13, 2005, 06:09:21 am
-
The problem I have with posting here is that any time I allude to one of Randy T's products he interprets it as an attack. I suppose I will have to live with that. It is not meant to be. I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.
The question is what is the definition of a 4-way stick versus an 8-way?
As I have always understood it, MAME is actually very clever at dealing with 8-way sticks in 4-way games. If you test this by using Pacman for example, using a keyboard to emulate the switches on a joystick, you will find the following moves work, as examples:
Press Right, move right.
As an 8-way stick does not have a restrictor, you might find that when you move up, you actually go Right-Up. So hold Right, and press Up. You actually move up, just as you intended.
Then you might want to move Right. Just releasing Up will cause a move Right.
Then move down, but accidentally go Right/Down. Pressing Down while holding Right causes you to move down, just as you intended.
In fact MAME is very clever in this respect. You can mis-press double "diagonals" and it will go exactly where you want. It can't handle pressing right and left at the same time, but this is not a possible move on a joystick.
The upshot of this, as far as I can see, is that 8-way sticks perform fine, with the limitation of not having a limit plate so the "feel" is not the same as a 4-way game, all of which have limit-plates on the joystick.
The question I have, therefore is this: A 49-way stick does not have a limit plate. Fair enough, maybe the "feel" is not a big issue for many people. But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?
Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.
There are people on here who play many more games than I do, and would probably be able to put me right on what I am missing.
I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
Anyone?
Andy W
-
Yes, there is a benefit, some games are a lot better than others at handling diagonals. Pac-Man is pretty darn good at it. Donkey Kong and Assault are terrible at it.
Pac-Man is probably the worst example game, the sheer way it works makes it highly likely to "guess right" when it comes to diagonals. Donkey Kong just STOPS on diagonals, and it isn't the only game like that.
4-way games without forward momentum built in are the ones that have the most problem with 8-ways. If your little Bomberman or Worrior is standing still at a crossroads and you press down-right, the game has no way to tell if it should be down or right. NONE. Pac-Man can usually guess correctly because Pac is always moving forward.
-
First off, as Paige said, Donkey Kong is a better test game than PacMan.
That said, I am using the Prodigy joysticks with MAME and they definitely play better in 4-way mode in 4-way games. (And I don't mean feel of the restrictor plate, I mean how many times the sprite goes in an unintended direction. And this is in PacMan, b/c I never was any good at DonkeyKong.)
But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?
Obviously it does. I have never used the 49-way sticks, but read through the 13 page introduction thread, especially the test results by 1Up and (I think) Kremmit. Basically, they said the sticks sucked on 4-way games in raw49 or 8-way mode and played great in 4-way. If the mappings didn't have any effect, you would expect the gameplay to be just as good in any mode, would you not? But that's not what the tests show.
Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.
RandyT kept his maps a closely guarded secret, but I would guess that none of the areas are unmapped, thus no dead zones. (I haven't seen, nor do I particularly want to see, the maps).
I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
I guess this indicates why RandyT wanted to keep the maps a closely guarded secret.
-
Good (and quick!) replies, thanks.
So in fact it's the ROM which is doing the sorting-out of 8-way not MAME itself nor the Allegro code in MAME.
Andy
-
Until I played Donkey Kong with a real 4-way stick (actually a Suzo500 stick with restrictor set to 4-way), I thought the game was absolutely impossible and couldn't understand how people could even clear the first level. Mario stopping at the base of a ladder when you wanted him to climb up it was absolute torture! When 4-way emulation was introduced, it made the game a little easier, but still nothing like playing with a real 4-way stick.
My first Mame cab was before the days of 4-way emulation in Mame (I believe this was added in 0.37b14) and with 8-way sticks it made Pac-Man almost as tough as Donkey Kong (ie, Pac-Man wouldn't change direction if you were hitting a diagonal).
I see how the "4-way emulation" in Mame has improved the gameplay using an 8-way stick, and admitidly I haven't tried playing any 4-way games with an 8-way stick in a long time, but I'd imagine Donkey Kong is still pretty annoying with an 8-way. The 49-way sticks "4-way emulation" mode is difficult to imagine without actually having a stick to play with, but it conjures the same picture in my mind as Mame's 4-way emulation.
I'd like to see a side by side comparison of how Donkey Kong plays;
A) Using an 8-way stick.
B) Using a 4-way stick.
C) Using a 49-way set to 4-way mode.
-
The text below is just my understanding of the problem.
BTW, also see these threads from 2003 (relates exactly to what you are asking)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,7288.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,5854.0.html
Good (and quick!) replies, thanks.
So in fact it's the ROM which is doing the sorting-out of 8-way not MAME itself nor the Allegro code in MAME.
Andy
Well, yes and no - I think it's gone into Web-History now, but Derrick Renaud (discrete sound MAMEdev now) did some work on using relays to make an electronically switched 8-way to 4-way joystick. This was eventually converted to software and added to MAME (probably somewhere in the mid-36 or mid 35 Beta series) as what came to be known as "Sticky Mode".
I don't remember which was Sticky and which was non-Sticky, but the basic idea was:
METHOD 1:
If you are moving left and then go to a diagonal, it still reads that you are going left. When you break the diagonal and hit "up", it then changes to up until the next clean direction change.
METHOD 2:
If you are moving left and then go to a diagonal, it immediately switches to the new direction.
The problem is that in either method, it sometimes guesses wrong about what you are intending, and sends the wrong signal. PacMan is more tolerant of wrong guesses than DonkeyKong, so the ROM does have some effect, but it's definitely not the only consideration.
You could probably add some "fuzzy logic" in MAME and get it more accurate - monitor the amount of time the diagonal was pressed to determine whether a direction change was intentional or not - but this goes against the spirit of the project, so probably won't happen.
The big advantage with the 49-ways (or an analog stick) is the greater resolution allows you to make better guesses, i.e. an 8-way just knows Up and Right are pressed, and has to decide what to do. A 49-way can say Up and a little Right is pressed, so probably Up is what is intended.
But RandyT also posted that the mappings that work are not what you would analytically expect them to be.
-
Also, I am not sure how useful sticky mode can be when Mame doesn't even know the correct joysticks for half the games. Last time I checked Mame listed dozens of 4-way games as 8-way games and several 8-way games as 4-way.
-
Also, I am not sure how useful sticky mode can be when Mame doesn't even know the correct joysticks for half the games. Last time I checked Mame listed dozens of 4-way games as 8-way games and several 8-way games as 4-way.
Yes, there is that as well.
-
... I think I am missing something.
Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
Andy W
This is pretty ironic, considering this post (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,33146.msg286254.html#msg286254).
I guess it's only ok if you are the one knocking off someone else's ideas. This post is tantamount to you "asking permission" from the community to do so.
RandyT
-
For goodness sake...the thought of copying anything did not even occur to me. What do you mean by copying exactly? The concept of mapping a 49-way stick is an old one, documented in several places including here:
http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
I am not intending copying anything at all. When you brought out the Keywiz did I accuse you of copying the I-PAC? Of course not because you didn't. You designed an alternative product which performed a similar task to an existing one. Nothing wrong with that.
Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.
Andy
-
Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.
Andy
So obvious, yet you attacked the GP-Wiz49 as not having any value in doing these calculations in the hardware, but now you are intending to do the same thing in your own product.
Please research and provide links to the sites you mention above.
RandyT
-
Sweet! Another Andy vs. Randy thread.
/me goes and gets some popcorn, kicks back, and puts his feet up.
-
Sweet! Another Andy vs. Randy thread.
/me goes and gets some popcorn, kicks back, and puts his feet up.
If you like this one, you'll LOVE this one. (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35044.0.html)
RandyT
-
I am not intending copying anything at all. When you brought out the Keywiz did I accuse you of copying the I-PAC? Of course not because you didn't. You designed an alternative product which performed a similar task to an existing one. Nothing wrong with that.
Okay, I will likely lose some friends with this post, but it needs to be said anyway. I think to some extent everyone copies ideas that they like from others, and that's not a bad thing. What bothers me is a pattern that I have seen lately where Andy tends to discount a competitor's product, and then makes a similar offering available when it becomes apparent that the competitor's product is successful.
Examples (and apologies if I get the chronology wrong, it is important, just sometimes memory fails me) -
While Andy didn't accuse RandyT of copying the I-PAC, a lot of the members of the board did (a testament to the good reputation Andy has built on the board). The KeyWiz has many unique features (four more inputs, unique shift function), so I don't feel it was a copy.
Andy introduces the Mini-Pac, a combined trackball/keyboard encoder. The design uses an IDE pin header. This was previously used on the MK64 and Hagstrom encoders, but again, basically an original design.
Randy introduces the ECO2, which now has the option of a pin header. (I mention this b/c some will say the pin header was a copy of the mini-pac, but it has been used before).
After trying to discount the KeyWiz as not being worth what you give up for only 4 more inputs, and saying how EEPROM was important to a keyboard encoder, Andy introduces the I-PAC VE, a 36-input encoder that is priced competively with the KeyWiz Max. (Not that revolutionary, given the earlier comments on the KeyWiz, but not a direct copy either, AFAICT).
Randy introduces the GP-Wiz. Andy posts in the intro thread that Gamepads and analog controls don't work well in MAME.
A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz. Again, probably not a direct copy, but a little suspect given the previous comments about gamepads in MAME.
As Randy mentions above (added while I was typing this), Randy introduces the GP-Wiz49. Andy mentions that the encoder probably works well for 49-way games but should probably be left at that as it probably won't do well in MAME for 8-way and 4-way and shouldn't be marketed that way.
Then in this thread, Andy asks about this functionality, as he might incorporate it on his analog stick that is being introduced.
Also - Andy posts that he does not like the Suzo 500 stick. Randy introduces it as the Omni-Stick. Andy says that he still doesn't like it but since so many others seem to, he is going to offer it as the Euro-Stick.
Again, I see a pattern of Andy saying something is a bad idea until he introduces a version of it. Hopefully, Andy has just been having a lot of changes of opinion. At least I would like to believe that. Someone correct me if I got anything horribly wrong.
What do you mean by copying exactly? The concept of mapping a 49-way stick is an old one, documented in several places including here:
http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.
Andy
Yes, Urebel mentioned the general concept long before Randy did, but Randy said that Urebel's mappings did not work well and were quickly abandoned.
And yes, someone else mentioned in the GP-Wiz49 thread about possibly doing the same thing with a true analog stick.
Personally, I don't see that as copying, but I would advise you to document how you determine the mappings, particularly if they happen to end up matching those used by the GP-Wiz49.
Sweet! Another Andy vs. Randy thread.
Don't forget me! BTW, sorry if this gets the thread locked. . .
-
Sweet!
-
Tiger-heli.... it seems to work for Steve Jobs. ;D
-
Tiger-heli.... it seems to work for Steve Jobs. ;D
Or Bill Gates, depending how you look at it :police:
-
No... Bill Gates doesn't denounce a product before he releases the same thing.... he avoids talking about it, then copies it, or buys it out. Steve jobs talks miles of garbage about a sector... then releases something in that same sector.
-
No... Bill Gates doesn't denounce a product before he releases the same thing.... he avoids talking about it, then copies it, or buys it out. Steve jobs talks miles of garbage about a sector... then releases something in that same sector.
okay, wasn't sure where you were going with that!
-
Yes, Urebel mentioned the general concept long before Randy did, but Randy said that Urebel's mappings did not work well and were quickly abandoned.
Personally, I don't see that as copying, but I would advise you to document how you determine the mappings, particularly if they happen to end up matching those used by the GP-Wiz49.
This is something I would like to address.
I was inspired by urebel's page, as well as the thoughts of another user here. I deviated from both of them, as I often do, and created my own vision of what I thought would be possible/beneficial.
I'd like to thank both of the parties responsible for the inspiration, but the functionality and methodology is not the same as the published examples and, as has been assured to me by outside professionals, unique.
It is methodology that is being questioned, not concept.
RandyT
-
Cat fight!
-
I was inspired by urebel's page, as well as the thoughts of another user here. I deviated from both of them, as I often do, and created my own vision of what I thought would be possible/beneficial.
I'd like to thank both of the parties responsible for the inspiration, but the functionality and methodology is not the same as the published examples and, as has been assured to me by outside professionals, unique.
It is methodology that is being questioned, not concept.
RandyT
Howver, at least at face value, it was the whole concept, and not the methodology that Andy was initially questioning.
Whether his question was meant as a way of seeing whether or not he should try to exploit the methodology I guess time will tell.
-
I gotta say I really appreciate all the work randy, and andy and all the others do for this, as i'm sure none of them can quit their jobs and rely on the community, but they all sell great products for good prices, so we aren't all screwed by bigger companies who don't care about the do it yourself'ers.
-
I gotta say I really appreciate all the work randy, and andy and all the others do for this, as i'm sure none of them can quit their jobs and rely on the community, but they all sell great products for good prices, so we aren't all screwed by bigger companies who don't care about the do it yourself'ers.
Yes, I have to agree that it's great watching Andy and Randy introduce products that we didn't know we needed until they developed them. 8)
Tiger-heli, what i got from your whole point is that Andy is doing business. Whether he has a problem with the item or not, if people will and want to buy them, why not sell them? I work for a boat dealership, used to be in accessories, I don't like some of the items we sell, I don't feel it's necessary or whatever, but I'd order them and keep them in stock because people want it. I want to have what people want, so they don't buy some stuff from me, then go down the road to the next boat dealership and pick up others. Obviously in business you'd want as much of a market share as you can get. While these are still just small business, it's still out to make some money. my analogy isn't the best, but it should get the point across.
Well, I can follow the analogy. Let me give you a similar one.
I work part-time for an auto parts store. Some of the products we sell, I don't particularly like, but we keep them. I don't push them on people, but if they want them they are free to buy them. OTOH, there are products that I don't like that I know our competitor's carry, and I will refer people to them if they really want the product and I can't talk them out of it. That's just good business.
But we would lose a LOT of credibility if the store ran an ad stating that Brand-X transmission additive didn't work well, then figured that since eveyone was still buying Brand-X transmission additive, we had better come out with a Brand-Y transmission additive that was basically the same thing, but told everyone else how well it worked.
Another example - A couple of years ago, I was in the Ford dealership for some warranty work and overheard the regional sales guy prepping the salesmen. He was trying to move Escorts and wanted the salesmen to mention that it had fuel injection so it didn't have problems with altitude changes, and it had dual diagonal brake systems, so if one brake failed it wouldn't skid to one side or change directions. Exactly what competing carburated vehicle did he think I might be looking at in 2003? A Yugo? A used 1984 Accord? And the dual diagonal braking thing was a NHTSA mandate from something like 1970. Sure, it's marketing, but is it a good way to do business?
OTOH, I guess this shows the level of competition, which can only be good for end-users like us.
-
so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it? i did ask randy about this in the GP thread, and he had some good points on price and feel of analog sticks. i only ask since it seems to me that your creating an analog stick interface that mimics 49/8/4/2 and even analog sticks. please tell me if i'm wrong, cause i wouldn't want to add to the fight. i am glad that it's a competative market, but...i just hate to see you guys fight. or whatever you wanna call it.
now let me get back out of the way before you guys start back up the fisticuffs...
-
Howver, at least at face value, it was the whole concept, and not the methodology that Andy was initially questioning.
Whether his question was meant as a way of seeing whether or not he should try to exploit the methodology I guess time will tell.
Absolutely, it was the concept I was questioning. It was an attempt at getting an answer to the question, and I did in fact get some very helpful answers.
Unfortunately, as I suspected, just like one of those Rottweilers that, when you pat them and say "nice doggie" they bite you on the leg, things turned nasty.
Before posting this, I discussed this subject with a local MAME enthusiast who does some testing for me (I know he will be reading this) and neither of us could come to any firm conclusion on the value of mapping. Hence turning to the obvious place to research the subject! So, yes, based on the replies I have changed my mind on this!
I have not changed my mind on other issues, for example:
Gamepad issues with certain combinations of OS/software. I allude to this on the A-PAC page and state that XP should be used.
4-Way sticks are best with a restrictor plate.
I personally don't like the Suzo stick, but do sell them.
I have been speaking to manufacturers about our analog stick for some months, the A-PAC was designed specifically for this stick. The stick will have restrictor plates. If I do decide to do any mapping this will in no way be based on Randys product, and in fact could not be, as an analog stick is not the same as a 49-way. I would probably just carve up the circle of movement into 4 or 8 equal sectors.
I feel that analog sticks have too much physical travel to be used as 4 -8 way sticks without a restrictor anyway.
Andy
-
so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it?
Andy has stated that he is coming out with an analog stick, so I'll let him provide more details.
Define competitively priced and analog stick. Saitek makes some $15 PC joysticks that are pretty decent. RandyT sells the 49-way for about $33. 1Up has a trigger-stick version of it for around $80. Happ wants I think about $100 for theirs. The same Happ stick goes on E-bay for $15.
-
so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it?
-
Hi to all, hey my first post :D
I have visited this site for years, have a couple of examples in here and feature in Project Arcade. Anyway, I just wanted to say...
A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz.
-
Andy, you are talking apples and oranges here, but let me explain (well, it seemed less like apples and orange as I typed it).
I agree that an analog joystick will need it's range of travel restricted to feel right in digital games. This makes sense to me and is actually a very interesting concept. Two points:
First - You are not doing the same thing. RandyT is taking an optical stick, reading the inputs and then feeding it to the computer as (analog or digital outputs, depending on mode) from an analog joystick. You will be starting with an analog joystick, so not sure how much translation will be required for digital games, but some will, since even with a restricted 4-way, your stick will (essentially) be able to hit two switches at the same time. (I realize it is pot values and not microswitches, but you get the idea).
Second - You will need some way to ensure that the restriction doesn't interfere with the functioning. I.e. if you move the stick up but the restriction stops it at 1/3 travel, MAME still has to interpret this as UP (but the deadzone command can hopefully handle this).
If I do decide to do any mapping this will in no way be based on Randys product, and in fact could not be, as an analog stick is not the same as a 49-way.
Well it could be - depends how you look at it. A 49-way stick has 3 level of travel in each primary direction, an analog has 128, but if you resolve the analog values into 3 "bands", you essentially mimic a 49-way stick. From there, you could mimic a 4-way just like Randy's product does.
I would probably just carve up the circle of movement into 4 or 8 equal sectors.
Well, Randy said that he initially tried that and it didn't work to well.
Sounds like a cool idea, though.
-
Back on topic.... About the 49way ->4way and how to make it work better.
I have always questioned if the 'matrix' was static.
-
Randy does seem to jump down Andy's throat everytime? And yes I'm that "local MAME enthusiast" Andy just mentioned ;D
Dear Andy's "Mom",
Please enlighten your "son" as to how deliberate denegration of competitors products, jumping into announcement threads for those same products with inaccurate negative comments, veiled insults, and condescending comments like "Unfortunately, as I suspected, just like one of those Rottweilers that, when you pat them and say "nice doggie" they bite you on the leg, things turned nasty." is very likely to cause someone who is not enamored by his supposed "prowess" to very possibly jump down his throat.
Thank You,
RandyT
:)
-
A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz. Again, probably not a direct copy, but a little suspect given the previous comments about gamepads in MAME.
I spoke to Andy about the A-PAC a few months ago, whilst in development and before that thread even existed. In addition, how else would you interface a steering wheel, pedals or other analogue device without using a gamepad in Windows? Yes it's a gamepad interface, but primarily an interface for analogue controls.
Well, thank you for validating my earlier points.
You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface. So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.
-
DAAAMN
Andy are you gonna take that? He just questioned the very nature of your upbringing. He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent. I think you should respond for the sake of your family.
-
He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent. I think you should respond for the sake of your family.
Actually, you missed it. I'm sure Andy's Mom is a nice lady (as is mine, believe it or not) It was mrdriver who I was responding to, apparently taking the role. See meaning of "quotes" around things.
Ahh well...if you have to explain, it doesn't work......
RandyT
-
He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent. I think you should respond for the sake of your family.
Actually, you missed it. I'm sure Andy's Mom is a nice lady (as is mine, believe it or not) It was mrdriver who I was responding to, apparently taking the role. See meaning of "quotes" around things.
Ahh well...if you have to explain, it doesn't work......
Worked for me. I initially caught the sarcasm, but not who it was directed at, but now that you explained it . . .
-
I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...
-
I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...
Yes. Methinks it's time to go to the pub...
-
this may seem weird, or not, but i'm getting two gpwiz-49's and an A-pac, and already have a mini-pac.
-
I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...
Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".
It's often how world leaders are elected :P :)
RandyT
-
Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".
It's often how world leaders are elected
My point exactly ...
-
While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's. On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.
I don't see anything useful getting done by the bickering or open hostility.
I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread. If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each. Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6.
I think both have great products. I'll probably end up ordering a couple trackballs and j-sticks from Andy in the next few months but that doesn't mean that RandyT's products aren't as good.
Going back to earlier posts about folks copying others, I guess I don't see it the same way. I don't see product development time for either Andy or RandyT's products getting done in just a few weeks. And lets remember that Dave's AKI interface predated both products but I haven't seen any posts by Dave busting anyones chops for others more or less copying his work (I concede that my understanding is that Dave's AKI interface didn't show up as a gamepad).
-
Hey Peale, hand over some of that popcorn...
-
Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.
"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."
In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?
-
You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface. So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.
I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?
If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options - use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.
-
i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb. randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run. also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks. i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use. after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.
-
On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.
I thought a troll was someone who pretended to be a member just to stir up controversy, not a contributing member with over 1,000 posts.
I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread. If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each. Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6.
You might feel differently if you viewed the thread as started by one of your competitors with the express intention of determining whether it was worth his time to try to steal your intellectual property, which I think RandyT does.
And lets remember that Dave's AKI interface predated both products but I haven't seen any posts by Dave busting anyones chops for others more or less copying his work
Dave keeps a much lower profile.
(I concede that my understanding is that Dave's AKI interface didn't show up as a gamepad).
Your understanding is incorrect - The AKI is similar to the A-PAC - an analog and gamepad interface. Daveb's 49-way interface is similar to the GP-Wiz49, but I don't know if it has button inputs or not.
-
While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's. On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.
I have to say that I totally agree with that. I've re-read Andy's original post several times and I honestly believe he went out of his way not to be confrontational. I really don't think he could have been more diplomatic. He's merely seeking feedback from potential customers to see what their requirements are. As others have said this is good business practice.
-
i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb. randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run. also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks. i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use. after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.
Sorry about that
I should have used quotes. I think there is a point to the product. I want one and I hope to get one soon.
I was refuting the post about thread hi-jacking not the product.
-
Hey Peale, hand over some of that popcorn...
/me hands some popcorn, and asks for a Pepsi
-
You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface. So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.
I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?
If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options - use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.
You missed my point. I never argued that an analog interface shouldn't be a USB interface.
My point was that if he was developing one on his own, he shouldn't be posting that they sucked for MAME in the GP-Wiz thread while his own solution was being developed.
-
While Andy did make a few comments on the GP49 announcement thread I don't feel that i've ever seen any of Andy's posts that were as agressive or openly confrontational as RandyT's. On other boards, I could easily see RandyT's posts in this thread getting moderated as trolls.
Well, it's a personality issue really. Some folks you can never really get to know (or trust), while others will put things right out on the table so you can make an informed assessment. Likewise, some folks will smack you in the chops for insulting their wives, and others will smile and wait until you aren't looking before they stick a shiv between your ribs. The example is a little extreme, but you get the idea.
I'm honestly curious what RandyT feels he needs to prove by hi-jacking this thread. If anyone disagree's with my hi-jacking statement please feel free to count postings by each. Before I began writing this response, Andy had 5 posts including the one starting this thread, RandyT had 6.
It's a history lesson that I'm not going to type out for you. It's all here. Just read and put yourself in the shoes of the person you wish to condemn.
Going back to earlier posts about folks copying others, I guess I don't see it the same way.
So. I take it you are not an IP attorney :)
RandyT
-
i'd have to counter your argument monkeybomb. randy's interface is still very viable if you look at the fact that there aren't yet that many games that require analog sticks, and some that do don't run. also, analog sticks are in the hundreds, where 49-ways are 30 bucks. i'd still get the 49 interface just due to price, but also, it doesn't make sense to me to pay 200-300 more for something i'll rarely use. after that though, i'd love to pay 200-300 for a star wars yoke.
Flinkly,
You missed what Andy is developing. If he successfully makes an Analog joystick that can be limited in firmware to digital throw and 4-way and 8-way modes, then it essentially works for all the joystick games in mameTM including yoke and pot-based steering wheel games, analog joystick and digital joystick. Whether he can pull that off, we don't know yet.
Peale,
When you finish the Pepsi, how come my IP address is posted and everone else's says "logged" and how do I fix it.
-
You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface. So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.
I think you're being unfair. What choice does Andy have?
If you want to develop an analogue interface then at this point in time you really have only two viable options - use the old gameport/midi interface or make use of the USB HID standard. Gameport interfaces are slowly disappearing so that leaves USB HID devices.
You missed my point. I never argued that an analog interface shouldn't be a USB interface.
My point was that if he was developing one on his own, he shouldn't be posting that they sucked for MAME in the GP-Wiz thread while his own solution was being developed.
IIRC (and I really can't be bothered to look up the thread) he didn't say they 'sucked for MAME' he merely said that a keyboard interface is preferable for digital devices, something I agree with.
-
tiger click your address it will say this
"Your IP address is shown only to you and moderators. Remember that this information is not identifying, and that most IPs change periodically.
You cannot see other members' IP addresses, and they cannot see yours."
-
IIRC (and I really can't be bothered to look up the thread) he didn't say they 'sucked for MAME' he merely said that a keyboard interface is preferable for digital devices, something I agree with.
Quote from Andy:
I can offer a reason for this. I designed an analog gamepad USB device with a shedload of buttons last year. The Mini-PAC board has the hardware capability of analog but it's not used by the firmware. But then I shelved the whole thing. The reason was I found that apps, including MAME don't seem to perform well when there is an analog gamepad device present. I did not do much research on the cause of this problem, whether it was Windows or the app itself. The problem is, so few games use analog that having a performance hit on the vast majority that don't use it, was unacceptable. I get quite a few emails from people complaining about button sticking or mouse (trackball) stuttering and the solution is usually "turn off joystick support".
I might do some more investigation into this at some point.
Posted in the GP-Wiz intro thread here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,31677.msg270941.html#msg270941, reply #53 on 10Feb05
-
Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.
"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."
In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?
Selective editing (as is mine below) ... he wasn't asserting that Randy was wrong, he was asking what he was missing ...
I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.
This statement is pretty clear and Andy admits that he may be missing something ... after that admission, is there much need for the character assassination ?
This goes both ways ... there is certainly no need to characterize Randy as a troll ... I've learned a lot from his postings and he has cool products.
If we keep on with "(R)andy is good, [R]andy is bad" stuff, we'll be left with fewer suppliers posting here, and that would be a loss for all of us.
Cheers.
-
tiger click your address it will say this
"Your IP address is shown only to you and moderators. Remember that this information is not identifying, and that most IPs change periodically.
You cannot see other members' IP addresses, and they cannot see yours."
Ah, thanks! If I click on it Firefox crashes, probably b/c both it and Proxomitron are preventing pop-ups!
-
Tis is why he had to hi-jack the thread.
"Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit."
In other words, is there really any point to that thing Randy just released?
Selective editing (as is mine below) ... he wasn't asserting that Randy was wrong, he was asking what he was missing ...
I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.
This statement is pretty clear and Andy admits that he may be missing something ... after that admission, is there much need for the character assassination ?
This goes both ways ... there is certainly no need to characterize Randy as a troll ... I've learned a lot from his postings and he has cool products.
If we keep on with "(R)andy is good, [R]andy is bad" stuff, we'll be left with fewer suppliers posting here, and that would be a loss for all of us.
Cheers.
To me he is saying that he missed the point of what Randy did. That comes with implications. Read it how you want, I'm dyslexic anyway. (For real I am)
As for pointing out how important they both are to us, I couldn't agree more.
-
To me he is saying that he missed the point of what Randy did. That comes with implications. Read it how you want, I'm dyslexic anyway. (For real I am)
As for pointing out how important they both are to us, I couldn't agree more.
Monkeybomb, you have it right. You have to look at the history.
First in the GP-Wiz49 thread, there was this post (technically by Lotus, but it sure sounds like AndyWarne's point-of-view, and RandyT hinted at that and it was never responded to):
Just have to de-lurk at this point..
I think we need to remember that it is conventional wisdom that the definition of an 8-way and 4-way stick is mechanical not electronic. The feel of the stick, ie not allowing the corners and being able to slide over the restrictor plate is why the sticks are different and why the T-Stick and even GGGs own 4-8 stick exist. So logically locking the diagonals does not gain much over what MAME already does.
I suspect that in this case the switching is necessary not to add any "feel" but because the 49-way stick is emulating the regular stick through an analog interface. So it's an extra hassle which does not result in an overall gain.
I suspect that if this was simply aimed at being a 49-way stick interface for anyone who wants such a stick, for games that use one, then it would have been accepted here with less of the "trial by fire". It's a great product for this basic purpose.
Basically saying "That interface should work great for 49-way games, but not for anything else."
Then there's today's post by Andy saying basically: "I still don't understand why or if this DRS stuff works, but if it does I'll include it on my new analog stick that I'm releasing."
Of course that's highly edited and paraphrased, but you can see why it garnered the response it did.
-
<\shrugs>
Peale ... trade you a beer for some popcorn ...
-
So. I take it you are not an IP attorney :)
And proud of it. :P
-
actually hes right.
mame does act weird with -joystick enabled in some cases. I think when you are using a mouse also. (like mouse games with joystick enabled when you aren't using them).
I DEFINATELY have seen some stuff. And its more obvious recently since I added hotswap to a Daves AKI board. Since its now turned on all the time... I have to make sure to remove the -joystick for any games using it.
But I think it might be the analog itself. Because I don't remember seeing the same problems with my 49 way interface installed. It might ahve to do with when values change or something.
Anyway... I've seen it...
-
Randy,
I was merely trying to point out earlier, that I know for a FACT, that A.W was only trying to establish if there were any real advantages of using an interface like yours combined with a 49-way stick in MAME (other than 49-way games of course). Myself and many others I'm sure, have been wondering the same since you announced your 49-way interface a few weeks ago. In no way am I knocking your product
It was nothing more than a genuine interest to understand something that until recently I had not given much thought. People are bound to be interested in how your product works and if it's worth buying.
I'm amazed that you reacted to my post in the way you did? There goes yet another potential customer.
-
I was merely trying to point out earlier, that I know for a FACT, that A.W was only trying to establish if there were any real advantages of using an interface like yours combined with a 49-way stick in MAME (other than 49-way games of course).
14 pages of replies couldn't do that for him?
-
I'm amazed that you reacted to my post in the way you did?
I'm amazed that you're amazed. But not really, considering you magically appeared to take Andy's side of things and apparently live next door to him.
There goes yet another potential customer.
Considering your immediate demonstration of bias, there was never any "potential" there anyway. You were just "bringing your own stick to hornet nest poking party" :)
RandyT
-
Hey whatever, there is no need for all this petty squabling. This sort of thing should be fun. And for what it's worth, I have known Andy for a few years and he seems like a decent & honest bloke to me.
-
Anybody got another stick? I think we broke the first one on the proverbial dead horse... lol
-
Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".
It's often how world leaders are elected
History is influenced much more by the silent, than the vocal.
That was the basis behind Edmund Burke's quote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
-
Peale,
When you finish the Pepsi, how come my IP address is posted and everone else's says "logged" and how do I fix it.
It's not posted; it's visible to only you.
-
Jeez, I go away for a day...
Damn if I'm gonna go back through this whole thread to dig up all the quotes from stuff I'd like to reply to, but:
re: Andy's original question:
As I said in This Post (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32747.msg303455.html#msg303455), "Of course, there's the question of whether or not it's worth doing anyway. ... plus the fact that they (edit: analog sticks) feel NOTHING like a regular digital joystick, more like flopping a wet noodle around. Even with the software restriction, the long throw and lack of resistance would probably make 2,4, & 8 way games unplayable on an analog stick."
So, since your stick design will have physical restriction, all you have to overcome is the long throw (could be handled by the physical restriction as well), and the lack of restistance. Current arcade analogs are way too loose for digital joystick games. Fix those problems, and you've got a candidate for electronic restriction.
re: 49-way testing & DRStm:
Yup, it makes a difference. Play is improved by DRStm. Any stick with resolution greater than the stick the game was originally programmed for should play better with electronic restriction. I still like the feel of physical restriction, but that's because I'm an authenticity nut. Still, I found 4 and 8-way games to play just fine with the DRStm system.
re: Custom grid mappings (what you think works, doesn't; and what you think wouldn't, does)
I believe that what Randy found was that the mechanics of the 49-way sticks were such that pushing the stick exactly 1/3 of the way left and 1/3 of the way up didn't necessarily register electronically as the diagonal in the first circle of grid squares, and the same for pushing the stick exactly 2/3 of the way. In other words, the electronic grids didn't match up exactly with the position of the stick handle, and this is why his grid mappings aren't divided up exactly the way one would cut them up if they only had a picture of the grid in front of them, and no access to the actual stick for testing. So, since his custom grid mappings were determined by the mechanical properties of the two 49-way sticks, it follows that grid mappings for an electronic restriction system for an analog stick would have no connection to the ones used by the GP-49. (Randy- feel free to correct me if I've botched this part- and thanks for taking the time to get the grids right, for both varieties of the stick. )
re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick. Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE. One product is a stick, the other is an interface. One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks. The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction. Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen. Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here. Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode". That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.
re: copycat products
Omni-Stick Prodigy vs. T-Stick+
One switchable with visable mechanism, for instant visual feedback and ease-of use. One switchable with invisible mechanism, for a cleaner appearance. Different products.
Omni-Stick Prodigy vs. Euro-Stick
Above panel switching vs. underpanel switching. Different products.
Keywiz vs. I-Pac2
One PS/2 only, one USB + PS/2. One with constant-on keyboard pass-thru, one with switched pass-thru. 28 inputs, 32 inputs. Etc. Different products.
Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 28. Etc. Different products.
GP-Wiz vs. A-Pac
Digital only gamepad encoder vs. Analog capable gamepad encoder. Different products.
GP-Wiz49 vs. A-Pac
49-way capable gamepad encoder vs. Analog capable gamepad encoder. Different products.
GP-Wiz49 vs. Andy's proposed new analog stick
Encoder vs. stick. Different products.
Shucks, the meat of all those old threads that've been dug up is largely about why one product or the other is superior to the competing one; hence, they're different, by the manufacturers' own arguements. Nobody's copying anybody. If everybody's making these products, there's gonna be some cross-over, but they've all got their own special niche. Nobody's selling anything that's technically or functionally identical to their competitors' products. (including Dave's products, which I haven't mentioned, since he's not here.)
re: Kremmit loves everybody.
Randy and Andy (hey, never noticed that before ;D ), I hope neither of you feels like I'm picking on you or taking sides here. I've got two Ultimarc encoders, two Ultimarc sticks, to GGG encoders, one GGG stick, and two Druin's, to boot. My current shopping list includes products from both vendors, as well. I'll use anything that works, and every product I've used from either of you has worked well.
re: sitting back and watching the fur fly:
Can I get a Pepsi and some popcorn too? No, wait, I want a beer with my popcorn. Two beers. Hell, beers for everybody!
-
re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick. Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE. One product is a stick, the other is an interface. One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks. The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction. Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen. Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here. Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode". That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.
The joystick needs an interface for it to operate.
Here's where the lawyers would probably see it differently from what you stated:
No other product has ever used this methodology to make the joystick "smart" and allow it to transform into another type of joystick at the interface level. It makes no difference whether resolution of the stick is 49 or 49,000. The methodology is the same and the simple fact is, if you originally said it had no value and don't know how it works or why anyone would want it, then it isn't yours.
If the same functionality were talked about being implemented as a driver on the computer side in support of this new joystick, then there would be no discussion. But .well...that's why there's a controversy here.
RandyT
-
Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here.
So, you do want to claim electronic restriction is your IP?
*Kremmit opens another beer*
-
re: Intellectual Property theft:
Andy asked aboud implementing electronic restriction as part of an ANALOG joystick. Randy has electronic restriction implemented as part of a 49-WAY INTERFACE. One product is a stick, the other is an interface. One product is for 49-way sticks, one product is for analog sticks. The only thing they have in common is the use of electronic restriction. Furthermore, since one product would be implementing electronic restriction on a 256x256 grid, and one would be implementing it on a 7x7 grid, there's no chance that the top-secret grid mappings are being stolen. Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here. Including an electronic restriction mode that forces the analog stick to work in a "49-way mode". That MIGHT make the GP-49 obsolete (might, might, MIGHT!), but it's definately not a function the GP-49, or any other product I know of currently has, so again, no IP theft.
The joystick needs an interface for it to operate.
Here's where the lawyers would probably see it differently from what you stated:
No other product has ever used this methodology to make the joystick "smart" and allow it to transform into another type of joystick at the interface level. It makes no difference whether resolution of the stick is 49 or 49,000. The methodology is the same and the simple fact is, if you originally said it had no value and don't know how it works or why anyone would want it, then it isn't yours.
If the same functionality were talked about being implemented as a driver on the computer side in support of this new joystick, then there would be no discussion. But .well...that's why there's a controversy here.
RandyT
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG
There are dozens and dozens of PC gamepads and playstation gamepads with analog sticks that change to 8-way mode with the press of the button. You did not invent that idea. Sorry, not even close.
I have one sitting in my backpack right now that I bought a couple YEARS before people were even talking about 49-way interfaces.
SO I guess no other product has EVER done that, except for the hundreds of high end gamepads, flight sticks and industrial joysticks that have done so for years and years.
-
Jeez, I go away for a day...
Kremmit, nice summary and good technical info without "fueling the fire". One correction:
Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 28. Etc. Different products.
S/b:
Keywiz Eco vs. I-Pac VE
USB vs. PS/2, 32 inputs vs. 32. Screw terminals vs. Pin header. LED's vs. no LED's. Etc. Different products.
Although, price and feature-wise, the I-PAC VE stacks up better (and aligns closer) with the KeyWiz Max 1.5.
And I am only adding this post to point out that you got the number of inputs wrong on the I-PAC VE.
-
Well I come back here to find that the attack has sunk to the level of attributing posts to me that I did not even make!
Oh well..
On the subject of copying: As I said, the thought that my intention regarding analog sticks would be interpreted as copying and/or IP theft did not even occur to me. Even I am not stupid enough to post here "I have a plan to steal the design of someone else, who is well known here, what do you think?".
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept. It's something that I have thought about many times before but not really pursued because I (incorrectly as it happens) thought that it would have little value in gameplay.
Andy
-
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.
i thought it was rather revolutionary
-
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.
i thought it was rather revolutionary
SO revolutionary that they have been doing it on gamepads for years.
-
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.
i thought it was rather revolutionary
SO revolutionary that they have been doing it on gamepads for years.
Paige,
Please give me the name of the joystick/gamepad that does what you are saying so that we can make a proper comparison. If it's true, I will withdraw that assertion.
Thanks,
Randy
-
This thread reminds me of the political threads in the Everything Else forum during last years election.
Why can't we all just get along?
-
Unless Randy wants to claim the very concept of electronic restriction is his IP (and I can't imagine he does), then there's no theft of IP possible here.
So, you do want to claim electronic restriction is your IP?
No. Not the concept. You can't claim a concept, only an implementation.
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on this.
RandyT
-
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on this.
Paige is talking about the button that says Analog on the Playstation 2 gamepads (and others).
-
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on this.
Paige is talking about the button that says Analog on the Playstation 2 gamepads (and others).
I'll look into that situation as well, but I want to hear what example Paige is talking about....from Paige. :)
Thanks,
RandyT
-
Are you really considering arguing a legal issue with Andy about making a product?
You will become VERY unpopular around here if you start legally going after someone else. Especially Andy who you really did base your company after.
He has really helped this community a LOT. And for a lot longer then you have.
I've never said anything bad about you or any of your products. But if you try and stop Andy or anyone from poducing anything thats really in the good of the community. Don't expect to have a single thread make it around here without being trashed. I believe you will loose a ton of face and respect if you start talking lawsuits.
He isn't talking about cutting into your business. He isn't talking about adding something you sell. But yet I think it could EASILY be said in the other direction.
This is suppost to be a fun project / hobby. Not a bunch of <edit> who try and threaten lawsuits just because.
-
>Especially Andy who you really did base your company after.
That is like saying Chevrolet based their company after Ford, or Apple based their company after IBM. . .
>He isn't talking about cutting into your business.
Let's get real - they sell competing products. Each of them is cutting into the other's business.
>He isn't talking about adding something you sell. But yet I think it could EASILY be said in >the other direction.
Not according to Kremmit, but that may be up to the courts to decide.
>This is suppost to be a fun project / hobby.
For us, it is. For them, it's a business. (Although hopefully a fun hobby/business, or at least an excuse to write-off arcade controls on their tax forms).
>Not a bunch of <edit> who try and threaten lawsuits just because.
I don't think I would take it as either "just a threat"or "just because".
-
Applying electronic mapping to an analog stick seemed to me something rather obvious and even trivial, not a revolutionary concept.
i thought it was rather revolutionary
SO revolutionary that they have been doing it on gamepads for years.
Its all relative. IT was a new concept to me and many others here, so it seems revolutionary. If two people invent teh same thing but never know the other person exists or about thier product, does that make one persons product less unique than the others?
-
Randy is complaining because Andy is considering trying to make his analog controller work with 8ways and 4ways at the same time.
-
/me raises his eyebrows a bit, lowers them. Tosses a piece of popcorn in the air and catches it in his mouth. Nods to PointDaBlame
-
Randy is complaining because Andy is considering trying to make his analog controller work with 8ways and 4ways at the same time.
Read the thread again. Andy's analog controller (A-PAC) ALREADY works with 8ways and 4ways at the same time. And Randy hasn't said a word about it.
Randy is complaining about Andy implying that he will add software restriction to his upcoming analog 4-/8-way joystick, b/c Randy feels his implementation (not the concept) of software restriction is his intellectual property.
If ANYONE around here should complain its...
Hagstrom for Andy making IPacs
Andy for Randy making KeyWiz
Oscar for selling hacked mice
Dave for Andy making APacs
Dave for Randy making Wiz49.
Why should Oscar complain about selling his mouse hacks, and if it bothered him, couldn't he just quit?
I've seen the prices these guys sell their controllers for. They really aren't making that much to call it a business. They could / should really be charging MUCH more for all the research / development out there. If Randy considered his development time, it would probably take him 6 months to a year to make a profit from the GP49... And by then his sales will probably be slowing down and he will be working on the next project.... Why? Because that is what he likes to do.
There's an old saying about making up in volume what you lose on the per item price. Are you complaining about the prices they charge being too low? Does that make it not a business?
And I'm pretty sure they both have full time jobs. Just because you make a profit on your hobby doesn't mean its not a hobby.
Tell it to the IRS.
This isn't because of business but lining each other up and checking their ...part... sizes.
/me asks Peale for popcorn.
-
btw, mame has been doing this for ages.
used to require extra setup... (left not up not down. up not left not right... ect)... but it IS done is software now.
So any intellectual property is crap.
And what do you think the difference between its now in the APac but now hes talking about adding it???
btw... I don't think Andy handled it well in the keywiz49 announcement thread at ALL. I just think we should all be excited about any project out there. Heck if someone comes out with a repo for that butt finger game I would be all thumbs up... maybe index finger... Sure I wouldnt' buy it (for its intended purpose) but I wouldn't go rankin on the announcement thread..
<lilwolf takes note. How much would the construction cost be for one of those things... And would it it be more authentic with analog pressure or with two switches and calculate the speed in software?... And if I hook it up next to an 8way flight stick... could I use it as a fight button?>
-
* Peale, got any extra popcorn?
You're not using the 'me' command correctly.
/me asks Peale for popcorn.
[me=Tiger-Heli]asks Peale for popcorn.[/me]
-
* Peale, got any extra popcorn?
You're not using the 'me' command correctly.
/me asks Peale for popcorn.
[me=Tiger-Heli]asks Peale for popcorn.[/me]
Okay, I edited my post. Good catch, thanks!!!
-
btw, mame has been doing this for ages.
used to require extra setup... (left not up not down. up not left not right... ect)... but it IS done is software now.
So any intellectual property is crap.
There's a difference - MAME doesn't work properly, RandyT's interface does (from what's been posted). And again, it's not the concept, it's the implementation that would be IP.
And what do you think the difference between its now in the APac but now hes talking about adding it???
I think I mis-read what you were saying. The A-PAC will currently let you hook up an analog stick or an 8-way stick as what they are, but it won't allow the analog stick to be restricted by software to 4-way operation, etc. I thought Andy was talking about adding software restriction to his new analog joystick, but it makes more sense that it would need to be added to a revised version of the A-PAC (in either firmware or software or both).
-
Actually it mame works perfectly for the hardware. The hardware is the issue in that case.
If you want to complain about it... Wouldn't Dave have the IP for converting a matrix of values to an analog device.. heck an usb device? Or scaling the analog controls based on user settings?
I don't believe that the IP holds water for two different devices. And if it does. Then Randy should remove his 49 way (both raw and scaled) so he doesn't step on Daves IP rights.
-
In my opinion as a semi-outsider / semi-newbie looking in on this whole (while entertaining) messy argument, here's my perspective and opinion.
I think Randy and Andy would both benefit as business operators by keeping their mouths shut about each other. I don't think either has represented themselves well. I understand that their are personality differences, and I've been in similar situations. IMO, the best course of action is to grin-and-bear-it, and make your competition make an idiot of themselves without jumping into the mud with them.
On another note, it's been found that the best place for a restaraunt to operate is oddly enough on a road with lots of other restaraunts. Even though there is more competition, all the restaraunts benefit from the increase in traffic and visibility. I think there is the chance that while both of these companies are competing for the same demographic, the innovation and competition that results will provide products that actually increase the market share for both.
OK, I'm back to the stands to watch the entertainment...
-Sean
-
Actually it mame works perfectly for the hardware. The hardware is the issue in that case.
If you want to complain about it... Wouldn't Dave have the IP for converting a matrix of values to an analog device.. heck an usb device? Or scaling the analog controls based on user settings?
I don't believe that the IP holds water for two different devices. And if it does. Then Randy should remove his 49 way (both raw and scaled) so he doesn't step on Daves IP rights.
But Randy's solution doesn't require the correct hardware.
IANAL, but I believe it would be up to Dave if he chooses to enforce his IP rights. For that matter, this circuit was available long before Dave's product: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/info/49way_to_Hall.gif, so whoever came up with it may have IP rights over both of them.
-
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on this.
Ok, I'll just sit back with my beer and popcorn... Hey, Peale, where's my popcorn?
-
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on
-
WHHOOOOHHOOOO!
THE BEST COMMENT OF THE WEEK!
In my opinion as a semi-outsider / semi-newbie looking in on this whole (while entertaining) messy argument, here's my perspective and opinion.
I think Randy and Andy would both benefit as business operators by keeping their mouths shut about each other.
-
Correct hardware is a 4way controller. It allows you to play with 8way controllers. And it DOES make a difference... not perfect but for some games makes it playable.
Actually it mame works perfectly for the hardware.
-
But let me see what Paige is trying to tell me before anything else is said on this.
Ok, I'll just sit back with my beer and popcorn... Hey, Peale, where's my popcorn?
I tossed a piece your way, but you missed, you clumsy oaf!
-
/me asks kremmit if some of that beer is left, looks over at the three-day-old-popcorn and orders some pizza from domino's online and has it delivered to the thread.
is meat-lovers ok with everyone?
-
/me Places a call to order some strippers to offset the dead time in between posts.
Beer, Pizza, Popcorn.... seemed like the logical progression
-Goz
-
But doesn't IP come into play if you copy the other person's stuff? What if you come up with it yourself, like Andy is asking? That would like Abit taking legal actions against Asus because they make motherboards that support Athlon 64 too. Or Boss taking legal actions agains Danelctro because they both make a fuzz effect based on a transistor.
-
eh, competition is good for us consumers. as for the analog joystick, not to burn your idea andy, but having to add restrictors whenever you want to play a game sounds annoying. it's like when randy put out the gp49 thingy, everyone complained that the computer didn't switch for you, and that they might have to push buttons to change modes. to me, if pushing buttons is tough, then switching plates will be even worse.
What if Andy adds solenoids that will retract or engage the appropriate restrictor plates based on software commands sent by either the USB or Parallel port that could be triggered by a frontend?
/me wonders if he is suffering from the effects of too much or too little beer from Safeway.
-
hmmm...solenoids. even though that would be extremly difficult and costly, it sounds interesting.
i'm just stating that while a product sounds good, that us lazy arcade game players aren't looking to pull our panels off and play around with our joysticks in order to play some different games. for all i know, he could turn out a product that i'll love to have, i'm just pointing out the obvious.
could we play star wars with an analog joystick? man, now that would be sacreligous. or however you spell it...
as for this argument about intelectual property, i'm not sure where i stand. while the thought of having a switchable interface thing is pretty revolutionary, it isn't new. but still, randy is the only one who has implemented it for us, and now andy is gonna do it...
as for me randy, you wont have to worry about me not buying your interface just because of andy's interface, i think your's does a good enough job already, and is financially reasonable enough to become a part of my arcade machine.
and as for not liking either of you for arguing, that's crap. randy could start name calling, and i'll still buy his products. i mean, if your not going to buy what you want from someone just because they like to argue is dumb...at least that's my opinion.
-
could we play star wars with an analog joystick? man, now that would be sacreligous. or however you spell it...
Sure you can. You can play it with a PC joystick. Same thing to MAME, basically. But you're right about the sacrilege.
-
All this doesn't really matter much anyhow. They live in different countries. ;)
Copy away..
-
/me hands Peale another Pepsi.
We are prolly gonna be here a while.
-
/me puts on his flame-retardant suit after crazy cooter shoots his mouth on his opinion, then begins to wonder how to get beer into his mouth through the suit...
-
God, Randy needs to hire a public relations person who has some grace. I specifically won't buy his products based on his obnoxious posts on this board.
Andy would have to be a moron to identify a feature that his customers wanted and say to himself, "I won't add that do my product because my customers can already get something similar from GroovyGameGear (if they can actually find it on that labrynth of a website). Can you imagine if anyone in any other industry took the absurd position that Randy is taking. What kind of fool would the CEO of Ford have to be to say, "Wow....the sales of hybrid vehicles like the Prius are really taking off. I sure wish we had thought that up independantly of observing consumer behavior towards a competitors product."
And, Randy, I was so impressed when you showed how big you were to give props to the inspiration for your product IN THIS THREAD. How long have you been selling this product that you "stole" the idea for? In fact pretty much all of your products are total ripoffs. I remember playing videogames when I was a little kid that had joysticks with balltop handles nearly two decades before GroovyGameGear even existed. I can't believe you'd be such a greedy fraud to steal the invention of the joystick for your personal gain. And don't get me started on the idea of keyboard encoders. That was SOOOO not your invention. And you weren't even fast about stealing the idea of joystick handles. You stole the idea from SlikStik after they had already stolen it. OH THE HUMANITY!!! Your thievery makes me want to vomit.
Now, as I quit trying to imitate Randy I have a serious request for him. Since I refuse to buy products from you could you please just stay the hell out of Andy's threads. He is the alternative to Groovy Game Gear for people who can't stand you or your website and some of us would like to get useful information from his threads about his products without having to sift through three pages of flamewars that you incessantly start.
-
/me picks up the broken sticks and dead horses before the next battle starts
Screw the Pepsi and beer.
-
Oh, COOL! Schmokes just showed up! And just when this was starting to wind down a little.
Too bad he didn't really tell us how he felt...
-
Yeah...sorry, a little late to the party. And too lazy to read more than about a third of the thread (which was no small feat). I'll do my best to fan the flames and help keep Mr. Redenbacher in business.
-
God, Randy needs to hire a public relations person who has some grace. I specifically won't buy his products based on his obnoxious posts on this board.
Andy would have to be a moron to identify a feature that his customers wanted and say to himself, "I won't add that do my product because my customers can already get something similar from GroovyGameGear (if they can actually find it on that labrynth of a website). Can you imagine if anyone in any other industry took the absurd position that Randy is taking. What kind of fool would the CEO of Ford have to be to say, "Wow....the sales of hybrid vehicles like the Prius are really taking off. I sure wish we had thought that up independantly of observing consumer behavior towards a competitors product."
And, Randy, I was so impressed when you showed how big you were to give props to the inspiration for your product IN THIS THREAD. How long have you been selling this product that you "stole" the idea for? In fact pretty much all of your products are total ripoffs. I remember playing videogames when I was a little kid that had joysticks with balltop handles nearly two decades before GroovyGameGear even existed. I can't believe you'd be such a greedy fraud to steal the invention of the joystick for your personal gain. And don't get me started on the idea of keyboard encoders. That was SOOOO not your invention. And you weren't even fast about stealing the idea of joystick handles. You stole the idea from SlikStik after they had already stolen it. OH THE HUMANITY!!! Your thievery makes me want to vomit.
Now, as I quit trying to imitate Randy I have a serious request for him. Since I refuse to buy products from you could you please just stay the hell out of Andy's threads. He is the alternative to Groovy Game Gear for people who can't stand you or your website and some of us would like to get useful information from his threads about his products without having to sift through three pages of flamewars that you incessantly start.
I take no pleasure in saying this, but I essentially agree with what shmokes is saying.
I think many people here (myself included) have cut Randy a lot of slack in the past because when all's said and done he does produce good products and it's in the community's interests that his company prospers. But he's really been pushing his luck recently. We all occasionally post thing that we regret later. But virtually every thread that Randy's got involved with recently has degenerated into a ridiculous point scoring exercise, and I place the blame for this firmly at his door.
And whilst starting flamewars is merely annoying, attempting to stifle legitimate competition by asserting bogus IP rights over ideas that are either too simple to be patentable and/or already in the public domain is completely unacceptable. If Randy continues along this path then he's no longer acting in our interests and I predict there will be a massive backlash.
-
Sorry for taking so long to get back into this as to let it appear as though I am responding to "shmokes" rabid diatribe, but I have been typing at this one during free moments on and off all day long. It's one of the 2 days a week I have left at the "day job" that appears to be going under, like so many others in this country.
This thread has taken on a life of it's own with people speculating about IP issues who have obviously never even been exposed to the process.
My name is currently on 3 issued patents, and I know a little about what goes into them. I don't know how many of the vociferous here can say that.
Am I considering legal action against Andy and were my comments pointing to that possibility? Absolutely NOT. Could I at this point? NO. Would I if I could? NO.
But one thing is for certain, there are a lot of folks around here who aren't who you think they are. And that goes for me as well. There is co-operation amongst the vendors and some of the "old-timers", and that's good for the community. There is also collusion between some of these individuals and most of the time, that is not so good for the community.
I'm going to relate a personal story here to help illustrate my point. When I developed the KeyWiz, there were very few people that knew about it before it was ready for sale. I talked to a few of the people I perceived to be the "nice guys", and outside of that somewhat oddball situation, probably are, but one gave me reason for pause. I'm not going to drop names, but he is generally well liked and respected...and a vendor.
I had a brief exchange with this individual, interestingly enough as a result of a technical "argument" and I let him in on the development plans and of course being as excited as I was about making the KeyWiz available, I told him that I wanted it to be a real alternative or even the encoder of choice for those looking for this kind of thing. Part of my plan to make this happen was to offer more inputs on a high quality programmable device, but sell it at a lower price than the competition and offer an American made product to, well, Americans (i.e. low cost, fast shipping for even more savings to those on this side of the "pond") . Part of this plan was also the Eco, which was (and still is) meant to place the hobby within the reach of those without the deep pockets that some of you (thankfully :) ) have. This would carry an even lower price tag (and this was way before the $19.95 one!!!)
From an individual that seemed, on the face of things, to be a benevolent type that seemed to regularly go out of his way to help, I got the strangest response. Not the "cool, it's about time someone made these more affordable to the masses" or "it'll be nice to have a decent alternative this side of the ocean. No. The response was "Why are you selling them for so little? You should consider raising your price" What!?! I was concerned about breaking into a nearly impenetrable niche market and at the same time do a service for the community. What motives could there possibly be for raising prices on the community, when it wasn't necessary for me to do so????
Well the motives are simple. At the time, there were a number of vendors jockeying to carry the IPAC as distributors in the U.S. and while I can't say for sure that this individual was one of them, it would have surprised me if he was not. You see, by time you factor in the shipping, cost of carrying inventory, and the fact that the manufacturer wants to keep the profit margin where it is, it would be nearly impossible to compete. After that, I pretty much stopped talking to other vendors, only end-users, who I am happy to say have been wonderful in their dealings with me and the support of my products.
Some of the people here think that there should be no IP, and sometimes I find myself feeling the same way. But you can't pick and choose who this mentality applies to. What if I started manufacturing a stand-up arcade machine with a rotating control panel that worked exactly like 1UP's (who I happen to like, and would not purposely alienate,) but used different controls on the same mechanism? How many of you would cry foul in his name? How many of you started foaming at the mouth when he posted quite often about the patent protection he was seeking for his Intellectual Property? Strangely, I don't remember anyone doing this.
Even more ironic, is the running of CyberPunk out on a rail, when most of you were using software he wrote to program your IPACs. Granted, there were other circumstances, like him trying to protect his IP using all the wrong means, but it's still a good example of how thankless certain individuals in this community can be at times.
Here's something for you to consider when lighting the torches. Where would things be right now if GroovyGameGear never came onto the scene over 2 years ago to push the envelope and other vendors into getting off of their "business as usual" asses and competing with our offerings? How many new things were out there in the two years prior as opposed to the last two years, and isn't it pretty damn nice to finally have options?
Anyway, I'm done with the thread, and shmokes and Grasshopper (any others?) can keep their money....if they even have any. I personally care about everyone I send my stuff to and I want them to be happy as they are getting a part of me....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.
RandyT
BTW, Lilwolf. Don't be so naive as to think that people aren't making money at this. We admittedly have smaller marketshare than the direct competition, yet we grossed at least the yearly salary of some of the more well paid members here. Yes, that is a lot of KeyWiz's to build by hand and we manually tested every one of them before they went out the door. It wasn't free money, but it's still money. If you were to consider that we probably captured only 20 percent of that yearly market, can you imagine what the other guys are making? Fun is fun, but business is business, and if you think the other guy is in it just for your playtime when there's that kind of scratch as stake...well, let's just say you aren't seeing the whole picture.
Man, more to add:
Grasshopper, as long as we are pointing fingers, you are one of the people that have driven this type of situation. Any time there is a conflict, you and a few select others, blindy take the side of Ultimarc and Andy Warne. One only has to look at the posts to see it. It's easy for an individual to sit back and appear magnanimous when there are others to speak out against your competition for you.
-
So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?
-
This thread has taken on a life of it's own with people speculating about IP issues who have obviously never even been exposed to the process.
That's quaint, Randy, but threads don't take on a life of their own. And everyone here, including you, know when this particular thread took a turn for the nasty. This thread had rabies long before my first "rabid" post on page-three.
I'm not just an Ultimarc fanboy or in love with Andy. I've never met the guy. I've never even been to England. He's nothing more than the face of Ultimarc, just as you are the face of GroovyGameGear. You both carry very highly regarded products. Andy is invariably civil, you are commonly not. You have a short fuse and often come across as having a greater-than-thou attitude. I'm just a regular joe going to school in small-town, Utah. Why in god's name do you suppose I would just randomly pick you out as someone I refuse to do business with? I've got no love for Andy or Ultimarc short of their ability to provide me with what I want. Andy's got no love for me save for my ability to pay him for those goods and services. From what I can tell a Keywiz would meet all my encoding needs and from what I've read it's a totally reliable product.
You don't "want" me to ever be happy and you don't "want" my business because I tell you that I find you offensive. But the fact is, I am a potential customer. Do you honestly think that you have turned a single person away from Ultimarc's door by coming in here and throwing a tantrum? Do you think a single person is going to refuse to buy Andy's A-PAC if he maps zones into it? Seriously, ask yourself those questions and if the answer is no, consider the fact that you have turned at least one customer away from GroovyGameGear's door. Two if Grasshopper was a potential customer. And there are a helluva lot of people who read these boards but don't post.
Don't keep your vitriol to yourself for my benefit. Do it because it's good business.
-
FWIW, here are a few threads in whick I pointed other people to your products or expressed interest myself.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,27822.msg231868/topicseen.html#msg231868
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,16562.msg130932/topicseen.html#msg130932
In this one I pointed someone to you for a 4-8 way switchable joystick and didn't mention Ultimarc even though they cary a stick that does this as well
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,27733.msg231120/topicseen.html#msg231120
-
But one thing is for certain, there are a lot of folks around here who aren't who you think they are. And that goes for me as well. There is co-operation amongst the vendors and some of the "old-timers", and that's good for the community. There is also collusion between some of these individuals and most of the time, that is not so good for the community.
Randy, do you realise how preposterous that sounds? Are you seriously suggesting that Andy, or any of your other competitors, has planted a number of secret agents on this board posing as ordinary BYOAC members, so they can deliberately try to undermine you? Come on.
-
is meat-lovers ok with everyone? and i ordered some more beer from safeway online...both should be here in an hour.
You're underage, aren't you?
I was planning to come over, but I have to train a bunch of cops tonight in Clackamas.
They might follow me if they hear that there's free pizza and beer.
-
that's not what he's saying at all, he's saying that some of our vendors aren't the nice, caring guy you think they are.
-
* yawns
-
clackamas? oregon?
It'd be a really long road trip if it wasn't.
Yeah, Clackamas/Multnomah Counties, and Fairview/Gresham/Troutdale are training at Camp Withycombe.
-
Randy, do you realise how preposterous that sounds? Are you seriously suggesting that Andy, or any of your other competitors, has planted a number of secret agents on this board posing as ordinary BYOAC members, so they can deliberately try to undermine you? Come on.
Um, that's not what I got out of his message. I'll read it again, but I don't think that's what he was saying at all.
-
So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?
-
keep with it intruder alert. i'm sure someone will hear you sooner than later...
-
Ok, first example of a stick that switches analog output to digital output in hardware.
Thrustmaster Firestorm Dual Analog 3 Gamepad.
Most high end flight sticks and pretty much every gamepad with dual thumb buttons already has this feature. Its old news. I don't do playstations, but I am pretty sure they started doing that on the playstation 5 or 6 years ago.
-
So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?
Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.
-
So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?
Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.
I'm building a 4 player CP with 4 - 49 ways on it
Do you think I should include at least one REAL 4 way?
-
Yeah, the playstation sticks have a button on them right in the middle to switch the dual analog sticks to digital.
-
So did anyone ever test Donkey Kong on the 49 way?
Yes. It's much more playable for me than the t-stick+ was. Not quite the same as using a dedicated 4 way but damn close.
I'm building a 4 player CP with 4 - 49 ways on it
Do you think I should include at least one REAL 4 way?
If you really ans truly want DK to play like it does on a dedicated DK then add a Nintendo 4 way. That way you'll get the true feel of the original. Other than that, The 4 way on the 49ways works very well for me.
-
....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.
RandyT
Can someone tell me if this means that RandyT merely wants me to be disappointed while playing arcade games, or if he actually wants me to, like, get in a horrible, crippling accident and have my wife cheat on me and my kids hate me and get audided every year and be framed for murder and receive the death penalty and eventually go to hell for something I didn't do and burn for eternity?
I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous. He did say "ever".
-
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
-
i think your getting a little personal here.
-
....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.
RandyT
Can someone tell me if this means that RandyT merely wants me to be disappointed while playing arcade games, or if he actually wants me to, like, get in a horrible, crippling accident and have my wife cheat on me and my kids hate me and get audided every year and be framed for murder and receive the death penalty and eventually go to hell for something I didn't do and burn for eternity?
I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous. He did say "ever".
Lol, I'm just glad Randy doesn't know what I look like. He might make a little voodoo doll of me and start sticking pins in it.
-
Ok, first example of a stick that switches analog output to digital output in hardware.
Thrustmaster Firestorm Dual Analog 3 Gamepad.
Most high end flight sticks and pretty much every gamepad with dual thumb buttons already has this feature. Its old news. I don't do playstations, but I am pretty sure they started doing that on the playstation 5 or 6 years ago.
Yeah, the playstation sticks have a button on them right in the middle to switch the dual analog sticks to digital.
Ok. Said I was done, but I cannot let this pass by. Neither of these examples are even close.
Paige, you don't even own one of the interfaces, yet feel qualified somehow to say what they are or aren't, and frankly that is really baffling me. The device you are using as an example to point out how "wrong wrong wrong" I am includes a discreet D-Pad along with the analog control sticks. The switch does the following, per the documentation found here (http://ftp.thrustmaster.com/accessories/pc/controllers/Manuals/Firestorm_Dual_Analog_3/FS_Dual_Analog_3_English_Deutsch_Espanol_Portugues.pdf).
GAMEPAD MODE CONFIGURATION
Press the MODE button to switch between Digital and Dual Analog modes.
Digital Mode: multidirectional D-Pad (8 directions, 4 diagonals) and 12 programmable action
buttons.
Dual Analog Mode: 12 programmable action buttons, 2 analog controllers and programmable 8 way
POV function on the multidirectional D-Pad.
As you can see, at no time do the analog sticks become anything other than analog. It merely switches the control to the D-pad. This would be exactly the same as having an Analog joystick and an 8-way on your control panel, with a switch to go between the two of them. The function of the GP-Wiz49 is very different.
As for the Playstation dual-shock controllers: Everyone that owns one, please go fire up a game that does not have analog support built in. Something old would probably be safe. Now hit the analog button. Can you play the game with the Analog sticks? No. It also just turns the analog function off and on.
But if anyone actually does come up with an appropriate comparison, I really am interested. so please let me know.
RandyT
BTW, take it easy, shmokes, I'm not a gypsy (no offense intended to any gypsies out there) and there are no voodoo dolls on my desk in your visage. If karma took a toll on you today, I'm sorry, but I had nothing to do with it.
And Grasshopper, get outta my head. I was just getting ready to hit the post button when you responded. :)
-
Shucks, late to the party again, RandyT already replied . . .
....right now there's a part of me that doesn't want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy....ever.
RandyT
I'm hoping the former, but his post was ambiguous. He did say "ever".
It could also mean that some part of him will not ever want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy - In other words - For the rest of his life (or longer) RandyT will not want shmokes or Grasshopper to be happy. Not, RandyT currently wants shmokes or Grasshopper to be unhappy for eternity. Then again, he said or, not and, so maybe you shouldn't take it so personally, as RandyT might be just as happy if all those bad things you mentioned happened to Grasshopper instead of you, as long as it's one of the two of you.
But I agree, it was fairly ambiguous. RandyT, could we get some clarification as to your wishes for shmoke's future?
/me asks if there's any more pizza, or even better, Pepsi (caffeine), as it might still be a long night.
-
As you can see, at no time do the analog sticks become anything other than analog. It merely switches the control to the D-pad. This would be exactly the same as having an Analog joystick and an 8-way on your control panel, with a switch to go between the two of them. The function of the GP-Wiz49 is very different.
As for the Playstation dual-shock controllers: Everyone that owns one, please go fire up a game that does not have analog support built in. Something old would be probably be safe. Now hit the analog button. Can you play the game with the Analog sticks? No. It also just turns the analog function off and on.
That's right
You can play most if not all ANALOG playstation games with the DIGITAL D-PAD but not vice-versa
-
Randy's on point there, It's been a long time since I've been on a playstation, but as I recal, the analog was pretty useless... at least on PSOne. Very few games supported it.
-
BTW, take it easy, shmokes, I'm not a gypsy (no offense intended to any gypsies out there) and there are no voodoo dolls on my desk in your visage. If karma took a toll on you today, I'm sorry, but I had nothing to do with it.
Once again vague....
Apparently he has no way to bring his desires to fruition, but this still doesn't address just how unhappy a part of him wishes that Grasshopper and/or (thanks Tiger-Heli) me to be for the rest of our lives, and possibly into the afterlife. He still has not given an adequate definition of "happy" either. Does he want us to be unhappy forever with his behavior or with our existences?
For that matter which part of him, exactly, wishes to keep us from happiness?
-
:'(
-
Apparently he has no way to bring his desires to fruition, but this still doesn't address just how unhappy a part of him wishes that Grasshopper and/or (thanks Tiger-Heli) me to be for the rest of our lives, and possibly into the afterlife. He still has not given an adequate definition of "happy" either. Does he want us to be unhappy forever with his behavior or with our existences?
For that matter which part of him, exactly, wishes to keep us from happiness?
shmokes,
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -- Sigmund Freud
RandyT
-
Now he wants to burn us with cigars???
-
"Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" -- Bill Cilnton
-
/me puts on his flame-retardant suit after crazy cooter shoots his mouth on his opinion, then begins to wonder how to get beer into his mouth through the suit...
Heheh, even gas in enough quantity can smother fire. :angel: Both Randy and Andy know more about encoders than I ever hope (or would want) to know. I don't know if either of them have copied anything more than the "the goal" of their products. If one comes out with an idea and it sells, then it makes sense for the other to offer a comparative item. The more diverse their ideas are for accomplishing the same goal, the better off we (and they) are because they can "point" their stuff in the direction they want to head with their business and phase in whatever they're working on next.
As far as the original topic. Up is up... unless you're down with what's left. Right?;)
-
But if anyone actually does come up with an appropriate comparison, I really am interested. so please let me know.
I really didn't want to post but...
I have four Logitech rumblepads that I have used for years on my emulators. On the press of the button the controls are swapped. The d-pad (pov) functions as an analog stick and the analog sticks acts as an 8-way d-pad (pov). A very useful feature that I have valued for years.
edit: It is only the left analog stick that gets swapped. I never used the right so I have no idea what happened to it.
From logitech support questions:
"Pressing the Mode button on the RumblePad
-
Is that what the mode button does on my wireless rumblepad? I've always wondered that. Good controllers. A little too big for my girl-hands, but good controller nonetheless.
-
Please note that swapping functionality of the D-Pad to the mini joystick in a game designed for gamepad only may cause unexpected behavior. This is due the fact that the D-Pad is an 8-way switch and the mini joystick is a 2-axis analog joystick."
This is your indicator that translation does not take place in the controller. If it did, it would be absolutely transparent to the application and no anomalies would occur.
It's just a switch like the examples given above.
RandyT
-
shmokes,
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." -- Sigmund Freud
RandyT
Unless you're Bill Clinton, in which case it serves a dual purpose. ;)
-
Please note that swapping functionality of the D-Pad to the mini joystick in a game designed for gamepad only may cause unexpected behavior. This is due the fact that the D-Pad is an 8-way switch and the mini joystick is a 2-axis analog joystick."
This is your indicator that translation does not take place in the controller. If it did, it would be absolutely transparent to the application and no anomalies would occur.
It's just a switch like the examples given above.
RandyT
It is transparent to the application. When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -. The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs. It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers). I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller. It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.
-
It is transparent to the application. When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -. The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs. It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers). I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller. It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.
Still not the same. The Windows driver and USB report structure are responsible for most of what you are seeing.
Gamepad D-Pads are not POV devices (at least none of the ones I have seen), they report the same as a Joystick would, only they are programmed to output the extreme-most co-ordinates when a digital switch is actuated.
Tell me, is there any way on your Gamepad for the Analog stick to behave like a gamepad does in the X and Y axis Window? This is the apples-to-apples comparison.
RandyT
-
It is transparent to the application. When I assign the d-pad (as an analog stick) in emulators it shows up as x-axis+,x-axis -,y-axis +, and y-axis -. The analog stick shows up as the pov inputs. It requires NO software to provide this swap (I never install the software or any drivers just the ones that windows offers). I believe the unexpected behavior refers to when the analog switches direction (i.e. up to up-left) which would be hard for a person to realize the exact point with an analog controller. It just corporate b.s. to cover themselves in case people complain.
Still not the same. The Windows driver and USB report structure are responsible for most of what you are seeing.
Gamepad D-Pads are not POV devices (at least none of the ones I have seen), they report the same as a Joystick would, only they are programmed to output the extreme-most co-ordinates when a digital switch is actuated.
Tell me, is there any way on your Gamepad for the Analog stick to behave like a gamepad does in the X and Y axis Window? This is the apples-to-apples comparison.
RandyT
Well not in the axis window but the pov circle and yes the d-pad functions as pov device. Its a gamepad and analog control at the same time. Basically it report as: d-pad - pov, left analog -x and y, right analog two vertical sliders, and the slider as the z axis slider. It has to use the pov to report all those inputs.
-
If I understand correctly, this is what RandyT is saying:
Go to the Windows Controllers calibration screen.
For a digital input or device, the cursor should be either centered or at the end of it's travel, depending on switch position. There should be no intermediate position.
For an analog input, the cursor should progress smoothly from center to the limit of travel as the control is depressed further.
Try the D-pad with the Analog button turned off . . . Which way (above) does it operate?
Press the Analog button and Try the D-pad again.
Does it use the other method? Then it is doing something like what the GP-Wiz49 does. Does it do the same thing but as a different input on the controller? Then it is not doing the same thing as the GP-Wiz49.
Try the same test with the left analog stick. The test criteria are the same.
Correct anything I messed up, Randy!
-
Heres how it works:
In DIGITAL mode: Gamepad uses X and Y axis, jumps from 0 to maximum values in any given direction. Left analog stick acts the same after being pushed more then half way in any given direction (give or take some). Right analog stick does not function. All buttons except L3 and R3 work as expected.
In ANALOG mode: Gamepad acts as POV hat. Left Analog uses X and Y axis and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. Right analog stick uses Z Axis and Z Rotation and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. All buttons, including L3 and R3, act as expected.
-
Heres how it works:
In DIGITAL mode: Gamepad uses X and Y axis, jumps from 0 to maximum values in any given direction. Left analog stick acts the same after being pushed more then half way in any given direction (give or take some). Right analog stick does not function. All buttons except L3 and R3 work as expected.
In ANALOG mode: Gamepad acts as POV hat. Left Analog uses X and Y axis and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. Right analog stick uses Z Axis and Z Rotation and acts as one would expect an analog control to act. All buttons, including L3 and R3, act as expected.
The POV controls are not comparable. If the analog stick does not look and act exactly as a D-Pad does in the X / Y Axes of the Gaming Options dialog in Windows, then we are talking about different birds.
Please research the data generated for POV controls to see how they differ from the data generated for X and Y Axes.
RandyT
-
Its pretty much just as he said it.
The windows view shows an analog control box and the standard pov and buttons.
When you press analog stick in analog mode... it moves just as an analog should. The d-pad will function as POV buttons in analog mode.
----
When in Digital mode... Pressing the analog stick will move the analog box - but not smooth like an analog controller. By pressing about half way in any direction... the analog display box will show the cursor snap from the center to full extent (very edge) in the direction you are pressing in.
The dpad will act as a dpad
I have the Saitek p880. Works the same way as described.
The older 1st generation gampads didnt function well - and used software to work. They realized this mistake, and made it all function in hardware now. I never installed the drivers either... as they are not needed for the thing to work.
-
When in Digital mode... Pressing the analog stick will move the analog box - but not smooth like an analog controller. By pressing about half way in any direction... the analog display box will show the cursor snap from the center to full extent (very edge) in the direction you are pressing in.
The dpad will act as a dpad
I have the Saitek p880. Works the same way as described.
Does it snap to the outer ring in any direction or only the primary 8 like a D-Pad? And is it doing it in the X/Y Axes box or the POV box? Because based on the research I just did on the model you mentioned, what you are saying can't be true....unless both the D-Pad and the analog pad are active as the same controller at the same time. Even so, behaviour is important.
The older 1st generation gampads didnt function well - and used software to work. They realized this mistake, and made it all function in hardware now. I never installed the drivers either... as they are not needed for the thing to work.
From the FAQ for your gamepad:
Q6: My d-pad was working fine but when I restart my PC it no longer works when using the digital button to activate it. What can I do?
A6: Some people find that their PC does not correctly activate the driver on restart. To solve this you will need to open the Game Controllers icon in Control Panel and access the Properties for the pad. Test the d-pad by pressing the digital button and when it works, close Game Controllers and play your game - it should then be fine.
----------
Sure sounds like the driver and that Digital button are working "hand -in-hand" to me. :)
RandyT
-
I can assure you that there are no special drivers nessesary to use the adaptor I have (some cheap radioshack thing). It functions as a HID compliant device and only requires drivers if you want force feedback.
To answer your question: When using the analog stick in digital mode it will only produce the same values that a dpad could. In other words, only the primary 8 directions. This is done in the X/Y box, not the POV.
-
I can assure you that there are no special drivers nessesary to use the adaptor I have (some cheap radioshack thing).
Adaptor?
What kind of device are we talking about? BTW, I really do appreciate the info that is being porovided on these various devices, even though none have quite hit the mark yet.
RandyT
-
I thought we were talking about the PSX to USB adaptors. Or are we just talking about analog/digital joysticks in general?
-
well if it is true, what will this mean for the future of 49way sticks?
-
I thought we were talking about the PSX to USB adaptors. Or are we just talking about analog/digital joysticks in general?
We are talking about interfaces that can accept the raw input of particular kind of joystick and make it emulate, through intelligent hardware, the function of a plurality of other dissimilar joysticks at the command of the user.
well if it is true, what will this mean for the future of 49way sticks?
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for one to appear :). No impact on the 49-ways one way or the other.
RandyT
-
Then everything I told you is probably irrelevent. I don't know if there are joysticks out there are other devices out there that act like that, but even if there are they probably aren't anything like the GP-Wiz49. At best you'll probably find analog->8way, and it will be pretty unplayable in games the were built for digital input. The GP-Wiz49 is the only device I know of designed to make a specific joystick (3 actually, right?) act like 7 other joysticks and perform like it isn't just an ugly hack.