The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: 1500points on March 07, 2012, 04:56:04 pm
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Anyone else that is a big robotron fan try the update, yet?
Man, I'm beyond impressed.
Feels like it plays at the higher levels as close to real robotron as it would need to be.
Although, mame hardness 0 seems to be similar to real robotron hardness 5
Congratulations Sean Riddle and Aaron G on taking the time to post this williams update. Brilliant!
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Big fan here but are u talking about the enforcer bug being fixed? ....or what?
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This is what keeps me so interested in the MAME project. I may never be good enough to see the later levels in Robotron, but I really appreciate the advances made in the emulation, and knowledge, of these games. I always read the whatsnew.txt on a new release, and this stuff is pure gold.
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not the enforcer bug. due to work by sean riddle, they finally got the "blit" rate closer to right so the game plays close to the real robotron.
tough game to emulate and this is the first time it is close.
otherwise the game was getting noticably fast pretty much by wave 5 on. really noticable by wave 30s.
I sold my real robotron due to all the maintenance hassles with the williams boardset so having it on mame with a jpac is a pure joy. have yet to experience a game with as much challenge and adrenaline rush at the same time.
cheers!
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This has become my top 3 games on mame. I love the "if you dont pay attention or get greedy, you die syndrome"...lol
my highest score is around 800k with normal settings, my friend just over a million...but I tend to show off thou. I literely ruined 2 U360's playing this game..wont use them anymore, their not designed for the abuse that this game has to offer. Now I use 2 undestructible sticks from xgaming. The way we train for this game is that we set the settings to conservative setting(Hardest), NO free guys...then after a day or so..introduce free guys...then...after playing that way for a few days switch it back to normal and its a noticeable difference..you'll get farther than you think. Anyways.....
Looking forward to this weekend when I can play the game and see the difference!
Sav
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cheers to the training.
i did similar when i learned the game on 19-1 multi-board. would play at highest hardness with 20 men until I saw progression. then go back to normal settings, which always warranted progress. once i had a new level or high score, i'd go back to the max hardness.
wasn't getting anywhere just playing the game straight time after time, as it wasn't challenging my reactions and visual acuteness to progress for the game play.
i started with 8 way microswitches then went to real 8 way wico leafsticks. they are smooth like butter.
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I sold my real robotron due to all the maintenance hassles with the williams boardset so having it on mame with a jpac is a pure joy.
Or you could get jrok's Williams MultiGame and play the authentic without the hassle ...
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he sold those originally for $175.
they are prized commodity and he doesn't appear to plan on ever doing another run.
when they come up for sale on KLOV they are $300 and gone immediately.
that's a rare bird that isn't readily available.
MAME 0145u2 with a jpac is about what we have available.
the ArcadeSD board at Phoenixarcade will have properly emulated robotron in the near future, but right now it is about 5.5times faster than real robotron due to the old blit issues.
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so... is the current U build of mame when playing Robotron at later levels faster or slower than what we are used to in the previous versions (U1 and before)...????
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some of the frantic movements at the higher levels are affected.
they were running twice as fast on your current mame.
once fixed you'll find some relief on the brain stages because the lightning bolts aren't crazy fast.
when you get in a bind you'll be able to stay just ahead of the pack.
you'll really notice the benefit at stage 29 and up.
sean riddle wrote a timing analysis of how the ram to ram and rom to ram blits were being emulated. and it was way too fast.
this latest mame experience is more like real robotron. if you ever play a real robotron on hardness 5 you are going to be shocked about how slow it feels compared to what you are used to.
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he sold those originally for $175.
they are prized commodity and he doesn't appear to plan on ever doing another run.
when they come up for sale on KLOV they are $300 and gone immediately.
that's a rare bird that isn't readily available.
MAME 0145u2 with a jpac is about what we have available.
the ArcadeSD board at Phoenixarcade will have properly emulated robotron in the near future, but right now it is about 5.5times faster than real robotron due to the old blit issues.
Fair statements, although I am not as confident that the ArcadeSD board will get to where you think it will (I have been following the progress thread over on KLOV).
I guess my main point is that the jrok board is available (if you look and are willing to pay), not emulated (except sound) and is a completely known quantity.
In any event, keep enjoying!
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I'm the one that pushed the robotron subject in the KLOV thread after buying a phoenix board. I'm quite confident in Clay's ability to deliver. :)
On subject of hardness of boards- i'm no robotron master, but i've been into the wave 100s on real. (just started playing the game a year ago)
on 19-1, it is beyond my abilities by wave 28.
on phoenix board, it is getting too hard by wave 22ish
on MAME prior to update 2, i couldn't get past wave 52
after the update, I hit wave 71.
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A ROBOTRON QUICK QUIZ - Don't Cheat - Just guess
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Whats the maximum points you can get on level 1?
(Any true Robotron fan knows this) :laugh2:
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Oooh, cool. So if I'm reading this right I'll be able to (hopefully) get a better score than usual? I usually peter out around 300/350k.
So glad they keep improving the emulation!
~telengard
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at 350k that means you are probably ending close to wave 12, tanks?
you'll do a bit better because the tank bullets on 12 and brain lightning bolt shots on 10 are slower.
but you probably won't do much better until you learn a strategy for those 2 waves.
you might get closer to wave 15, but 17 and 22 are still the next hurdles that are more about general skill than the game being slower....
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Ah, cool. I've gotten higher (I think my tops was a bit over 400k) but yeah, the Tanks are brutal. My average score is in the 300/350k range. Usually my first game or two is my best and it goes downhill from there. :lol
Gonna have to update the cab with this build (just finished migrating EVERYTHING over to .145).
~telengard
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Ah, cool. I've gotten higher (I think my tops was a bit over 400k) but yeah, the Tanks are brutal. My average score is in the 300/350k range. Usually my first game or two is my best and it goes downhill from there. :lol
Gonna have to update the cab with this build (just finished migrating EVERYTHING over to .145).
~telengard
While you are in the upgrading mood, Wolfeel is going to do a second run on the 4" wico sticks. They are great for robotron.
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Damn thing isn't compiling right for me.
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are you going through the exact steps similar to what is listed here: http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html (http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html)
the only compile problem i've had after following those steps to a T, is trying to do the 64bit compile on a 32 bit computer, but the error told me what was wrong.
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Played a few hours of real robotron yesterday and a couple hours of mame robotron today.
it "feels" like hardness 0 on mame is similar to hardness 6 or 7 on real.
and the main difference is the mame player moves and fires a tiny bit more sluggish than real. the real movements feel crisp and quick. just something a little off. but doesn't affect the enjoyment whatsoever.
was able to hit wave 124 on mame, so it is definitely playable, unlike a 19-1 multiboard....
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are you going through the exact steps similar to what is listed here: http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html (http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html)
the only compile problem i've had after following those steps to a T, is trying to do the 64bit compile on a 32 bit computer, but the error told me what was wrong.
I've compiled it a ton of times in the past using Mame Compiler 64. Every so often, though, something like this occurs.
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I searched around and was able to find it already compiled. Saved installing a bunch of stuff I have little intention of using. Now to see if the 6 year old PC in my mame cabinet can run it (have like .72 on it now).
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Yes it runs full speed on my cabinet, however the version of mame I found compiled with 145u2 (some sort of mameui plus jobber), is an incredible resource hog. Takes several minutes to launch, won't close, eats 1/4th of the system ram, etc, etc and I only have one game installed.
Hit 400K my first game on factory settings. Definitely a huge difference. My high score on the multiboard version was near a million, but that was with sticks centered on a 19" screen (not in the player 1 slot on a 27") and I probably played several thousand games to get there.
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Glad to hear other positive feedback.
If you find little variations between MAME and real you can email Sean Riddle at his website. He is still trying to do some testing and tweaking to get it closer.
The next issue I'll be reporting is the slight "sluggish" firing and moving of player, especially at start of higher waves.
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I've recently played a restored Robo, and felt it it played very much like older MAME. Where is this update talked about? I didn't see it at MAMEWorld, nor mentioned in the what's new. Also, since we're at u4, is this patch or whatever incorporated?
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Robotron...never heard of it. Is it new?
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@gray- the patch is for the rom itself, not mame. if you read toward the end of this thread you'll probably find what ye seek- http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=225042&page=4 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=225042&page=4)
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@gray- the patch is for the rom itself, not mame. if you read toward the end of this thread you'll probably find what ye seek- http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=225042&page=4 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=225042&page=4)
Ah. Your original post sounded as though there was change to the game play, rather than the enforcer bug.
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there was in 0145u2. per Sean R., i made some changes on my own mame which have brought it closer to real robotron for speed. Sean Riddle is still working on some new timing tests to fine tune which i presume will be in a future update for mame.
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Ahhh. That I'm interested in. I do hate 'forcing' the enforcer bug, but I'm okay with it I guess. I've gotten a few/several million several or more times without hitting it. But maybe the patched version will show up in Misfit MAME.
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I'm very much interested in this update as I'm currently building a mini Robotron bartop. But I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. I'm quite prepared to wait for Mame v.146 to be released rather than compile .145u2. The project is still ongoing so there is no rush.
But when 146 is released will I need to get an updated Robotron Rom? Or will I need to hack the rom or just get a new romset for 146? I take it the Solid Blue Rom is still the main parent rom?
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Sean Riddle did submit one more cpu/video timing fix to Aaron that hasn't yet been released. Maybe that's the fix you are talking about for 146?
The blue rom is the main rom you'll use, OR you can get the patched blue rom from Sean Riddles website, make a few changes to the values for the rom's in a williams.c file. then you'll be able to play the blue rom set with the Digital eclipse fix, so it'll never have the "firing in the corner" reset problem.
In my observation during testing this "soon to be released" fix makes Mame on hardness setting 0 about identical to Real on hardness 5.
I had a friend, who is a master level player since the 80s, try the latest mame fix and he rated it at within 95% of a real robotron machine.
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The blue rom is the main rom you'll use, OR you can get the patched blue rom from Sean Riddles website, make a few changes to the values for the rom's in a williams.c file. then you'll be able to play the blue rom set with the Digital eclipse fix, so it'll never have the "firing in the corner" reset problem.
This is one of the bits I don't understand. I downloaded that "Patrobotron" file from Sean's site. And it explains that some values need to be changed within it. But when I unpack the downloaded file I cannot find the williams.c file anywhere. Where exactly is this file and do I just change the values to what Sean says on his site?
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you'll have to rename patrobotron.zip to robotron.zip, in the roms folder.
and if you don't have the SRC folder that means you didn't download the mame source code, you must just have the basic files for running mame.
this is the instructional i used which talks about how to download the mame source code.
http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html (http://mrdo.mameworld.info/compile.html)
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When you say "hardness", are you referring to the difficulty of play. I always play on Difficulty 10. Does that mean it
is more like 15? It doesn't seem to be to me. It is just crazy all the time, so I didn't really notice.
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setting 5. that's what i meant by hardness.
since you play on 10, you probably wouldn't notice the nuances. and there is probably some point where you are hitting the max on what the processor does anyway so setting 10 or 15 is irrelevant as nothing is really changing much?
i'm guessing you have a lot of stop and go in the game with dying anyway so that really isn't conducive to getting into the meditative flow where you just roll for awhile.
with all this talk. truth be told, i probably enjoy the 19-1 board's robotron most as it is blistering hard and games don't take longer than the wave 30s. really good beating for an adrenaline rush. and it isn't much harder on setting 10 than 5, which supports the musings above that are just guesses anyway since i can't do cpu/video timing like Sean Riddle can do.
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i'm guessing you have a lot of stop and go in the game with dying anyway so that really isn't conducive to getting into the meditative flow where you just roll for awhile.
Apparently you haven't seen smiley's scores.
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post a link please. :)
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Look at the byoac scoreboard, yo.
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0145u8 has the Sean Riddle video fix which further brings the mame robotron experience closer to real.
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Woww. Plays....nicely. So smooth, and collision detection was very tight - not to mention none of that 'swoosh' ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. A game on this new Robo, default settings (difficulty 5).
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An explanation of that latest patch fix is here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=30 (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=30)
I've adjusted the clock out just a bit by multiplying it by 1.175 and think it is really close to my real robotron machine.
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Is the patched rom set needed, too?
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It isn't needed but it's a luxury if you install it.
There is no change in the gameplay, it's still the same blue rom code.
I haven't had a "reset" during gameplay since I got the patched set running.
Sooooo nice.
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Yeah, I remembered the new set is only for the enforcer bug. I haven't decided whether I want to do that....
Broke a million last night on new Robo.
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What stage are you reaching to get 1 million? wave 40? That's pretty good work.
Check out some of the gameplay tips on www.robotron2084guidebook.com (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com) and let me know if they help with your progress or if you have any suggestions I may have overlooked. :)
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I actually did better. (Although I guess I wasn't doing that well, considering I apparently lost at least thirteen dudes in the last 170 thousand....)
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nice.
Here is the INP for a 17 million game in wolfMAME- done by Calz on KLOV
think you'll find some useful tips by seeing some of it
enjoy
http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Robotron-wolfMAME106-WR.zip (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Robotron-wolfMAME106-WR.zip)
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Here is the INP for a 17 million game in wolfMAME- done by Calz on KLOV
think you'll find some useful tips by seeing some of it
enjoy
Hmmmmmm. I watched it up past a million (where he almost didn't make it...). So many times, I saw the death coming. Many of those times, I was about to move differently, or would've gone a totally different way. I saw some swift movements amidst that, but I didn't see any particularly universal strategy.
Maybe you could summarise for me what it was?
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Well, maybe I learned some things. In particular, move less, sometimes actually waiting. Hah hah hah...it slowed down so much, I had to notice it, and then I was all 'OH, strategy time!'
Here's a decent game. I think I started getting tired...
Of course, they cheated several times. But they cheated Calz a few times, too. That's what I love about new Robo. It doesn't cheat you.
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I have the game summarized per enemy on my site here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=11 (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=11)
I break it down into strengths/weaknesses of each enemy, then go into more detail, then discuss it in relation to a wave walkthrough.
I have also discussed how to overcome plateaus of gameplay here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=236 (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=236)
Reflexes are defense, strategy is offense. People get to thinking the faster they react the better they'll do which becomes false at the waves after 22.
Similar to chess, you are doing great offensively, then quickly put in a defensive situation, and the trick is to figure out how to regain the offense. Same thing as Ultimate fighting and boxing, too. (probably why us adult males enjoy robotron because it sparks that primitive instinct about fighting)
If you watch his game around 6.5million. you'll see redemption and heart at it's finest. he gets down to 0 men several times at the start of really hard waves. he pulls off a miracle. then he gets back into that mental zone and he's back to speed. crazy crazy crazy action. i've never had a game like that.
For those reading and confused about how to install mame 0145u8 I have written an exact step by step for how to do it- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=509 (http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/?page_id=509)
Over at CAG, Matt H who is a master level player tried o145u8 and feels the emulation is spot on now.
So "real robotron" is available to everyone on the planet who owns a computer now. hurray!