The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Software Forum => Topic started by: evh347 on April 17, 2015, 10:00:16 pm
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Anyone figure out a good way to get their arcade cabinet's IPAC to work with the new MKX game for PC?
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Works fine here. The game itself blows, though.
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Okay...I can edit the keyboard controls in the game and then those controls don't work once in the game. It appears the method of editing the controls is broken. You can't simply clear out the unwanted control key. Every time I go to edit a key it leaves two keys.
You have to hit ENTER to edit the control, pick the key you want to use and hit ENTER again and select a second key you won't use. On the next control, hit ENTER, out in the key you want, and again the key you don't want, but that will cause the previous control you configured to leave only the key you want to use instead of two controls.
However....the up/down works in the game menus but once in the fight they stop working. The only controls that work are the whatever the default controls were originally upon install. Example: W-A-S-D work in the game but they are not mapped to the buttons I mapped them to in the "wireless controller" menu.
Is there a fix for this?
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I downloaded today's update for the PC version, but I think they still have a ways to go. With both the IPAC and keyboard plugged in at the same time, it appears the controls do work depending on what you set them to. The problem is they only work when you use the actual keyboard.
In menu selection screens, my IPAC will allow up/down movement and ENTER selections, but that's it. In the character and stage selection screen, the IPAC is completely unregistering as well as once the fight begins.
My IPAC shows up fine (registers keystrokes) outside of MKX, but not within MKX.
I have found only one way to get the IPAC to register correctly. I have to back out of the game, unplug my USB keyboard, and then start the game. The IPAC registers correctly then as I've designated in the "wireless controller" settings. So it seems that MKX is not programmed to see more than one keyboard at a time. The issue with having only the IPAC plugged in (and not your keyboard) is that you can't map an ESC (back out) option. So if your keyboard is unplugged, the only way to back out is to completely quit the game by shutting down processes (CTRL-ALT-DEL).
Equally as unhelpful is the fact that in Practice Mode, the actual moves stream along the side as the key that is registering from the keyboard. So instead of FP, BL, ->, etc...it shows the key that's associated with that move.
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I downloaded today's update for the PC version, but I think they still have a ways to go. With both the IPAC and keyboard plugged in at the same time, it appears the controls do work depending on what you set them to. The problem is they only work when you use the actual keyboard.
In menu selection screens, my IPAC will allow up/down movement and ENTER selections, but that's it. In the character and stage selection screen, the IPAC is completely unregistering as well as once the fight begins.
My IPAC shows up fine (registers keystrokes) outside of MKX, but not within MKX.
I have found only one way to get the IPAC to register correctly. I have to back out of the game, unplug my USB keyboard, and then start the game. The IPAC registers correctly then as I've designated in the "wireless controller" settings. So it seems that MKX is not programmed to see more than one keyboard at a time. The issue with having only the IPAC plugged in (and not your keyboard) is that you can't map an ESC (back out) option. So if your keyboard is unplugged, the only way to back out is to completely quit the game by shutting down processes (CTRL-ALT-DEL).
Equally as unhelpful is the fact that in Practice Mode, the actual moves stream along the side as the key that is registering from the keyboard. So instead of FP, BL, ->, etc...it shows the key that's associated with that move.
Hey, I was hoping more people on here would be trying to tackle this. I have the same issues as you. From what I gather the only way to control game and menus is by using VJOY. I can re-map buttons so fighting is all good, but character select and stage screen only accept WASD controls.
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We figured out via battles with both MK9 and Injustice that the "solution" is to switch to gamepads, preferably 360 controllers as your input method if you enjoy NRS fighters... or modern windows games in general.
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I'm having the same problem, up, down, enter and escape work fine in the menu but it wont let me reconfigure.
My solution for MK9 and Injustice was to use Headsoft's VJoy which works fantastic, however MKX flat out wont recognize the VJoy virtual joysticks.
I've tried a half dozen suggestions from others online playing with the controller drivers to no avail. I've read a lot of other people having problems with getting game pads recognized but no real confirmation on a working solution.
I've been debating replacing the iPAC with PS360+ PCBs but I have no idea if that would end up being a lot of work for nothing.
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Don't replace any good components for this crappy game. Any gamepad is going to have more input lag than the I-PAC because you won't be able to run MAME in Raw Input mode with a gamepad. Raw Input or don't even get out of bed.™
If you're going to use a crappy Xbox gamepad to power your cabinet, you might as well completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up your cabinet, run Linux, and eat the 8 frames of input lag with fervor.
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Don't replace any good components for this crappy game. Any gamepad is going to have more input lag than the I-PAC because you won't be able to run MAME in Raw Input mode with a gamepad. Raw Input or don't even get out of bed.™
If you're going to use a crappy Xbox gamepad to power your cabinet, you might as well completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up your cabinet, run Linux, and eat the 8 frames of input lag with fervor.
are you always this positive and constructive?
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Don't replace any good components for this crappy game. Any gamepad is going to have more input lag than the I-PAC because you won't be able to run MAME in Raw Input mode with a gamepad. Raw Input or don't even get out of bed.™
If you're going to use a crappy Xbox gamepad to power your cabinet, you might as well completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up your cabinet, run Linux, and eat the 8 frames of input lag with fervor.
8 frames of input lag? you're telling me there's a 128ms of input lag on USB 360 controllers?
has anyone done any real-world, hard evidence producing, tests on 360 controller input lag?
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
:applaud:
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for anyone interested the closest I could find was this video:
https://youtu.be/r0mDwAmQL8s
it's comparing the difference in lag between a wired and a wireless 360 controller on a PC. (of which the video concludes there is no discernible difference).
The total time from button push to reaction on the display was around 66ms (about 4 frames), but that also includes whatever display lag was occurring on this setup AND it was done using a 60FPS camera which means that it's only accurate to within 16ms (or 1 frame). Considering the recording mechanism and even the fastest displays have around 10-12ms of lag that means that the controllers have, at worst, between 40 and 55ms of lag. And without a comparison to an iPAC there's no telling if that's actually better or worse.
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I haven't bought the game yet but to those who own it you should try the usual:
1. x360ce (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,96377.msg1015107.html#msg1015107) hack that worked for SFIV and MK9 but looking at my topic on it (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,96377.msg1382858.html#msg1382858) so save you some headaches.
If that fails:
2. The more cumbersome Injustice work-around which is a pain in the ass but doable. I ended up using devcon in my ahk script to disable the virtual vjoy controllers to avoid it clashing with other PC games, especially those using x360ce. Another issue was some of the keyboard inputs were hard-coded and clashed with your vjoy assignments. If anyone is interested I can post the Injustice script tonight when I'm home.
No easy answers, unfortunately, but x360ce is the best answer if it works, short of switching over to xbox 360 gamepads.
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for anyone interested the closest I could find was this video:
https://youtu.be/r0mDwAmQL8s
it's comparing the difference in lag between a wired and a wireless 360 controller on a PC. (of which the video concludes there is no discernible difference).
The total time from button push to reaction on the display was around 66ms (about 4 frames), but that also includes whatever display lag was occurring on this setup AND it was done using a 60FPS camera which means that it's only accurate to within 16ms (or 1 frame). Considering the recording mechanism and even the fastest displays have around 10-12ms of lag that means that the controllers have, at worst, between 40 and 55ms of lag. And without a comparison to an iPAC there's no telling if that's actually better or worse.
And since I'm so fond of pummeling horse corpses....
Keyboard input on modern pc games is typically handled through directinput. DirectInput is event driven, meaning if an event occurs, it fires a generic function in which the device and type of event has to be parsed, filtered, and then handled. This means lag. Mind you it isn't a huge amount of lag in terms of human reflexes, but keep in mind that Xinput was introduced to streamline this.
Xinput devices show up as device 1-4 and they are pre configured as they are plugged in. In addition xinput requires active parsing.... meaning it has to ask the state of the devices in the game loop.... which is exactly how old consoles and arcade machines did it. The report data is like 16 bytes sent at once (if I'm remembering correctly... it's around there) through the function... no usb handling nonsense and no need to parse... you can dump it directly into a xinput_state structure and it's ready for use in the game code.
So while I think that in any instance the amount of lag we are talking about is inconsequential, if anything, 360 gamepads should be faster. ;)
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Actually, you're wrong. Direct Input is almost completely dead (Microsoft has deprecated it).
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee417014%28v=vs.85%29.aspx (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee417014%28v=vs.85%29.aspx)
As far as input latency goes: Raw Input > XInput > Direct Input.
MAME uses Raw Input, and Raw Input has significantly less input lag than Direct Input or XInput. Direct Input processes input data before the application gets it, and that's why it's so much more laggy than the other APIs. It blows.
Even though XInput is better than Direct Input, remember that MAME does not support XInput natively. If you don't use Raw Input, you're stuck with Direct Input, which is almost as bad as SDL in terms of input latency.
No USB gamepad can take advantage of Raw Input natively--only mice and keyboards can. Finally, you can use a PS/2 keyboard encoder with Raw Input in MAME. It's about as responsive as you can get.
So yeah, let's stop spreading ---saint's minion-poo--- misinformation, please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbkizy-Y3qw#t=2m23s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbkizy-Y3qw#t=2m23s)
Geezus
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
:applaud:
Good job on applauding factually incorrect information. :laugh2:
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Don't replace any good components for this crappy game. Any gamepad is going to have more input lag than the I-PAC because you won't be able to run MAME in Raw Input mode with a gamepad. Raw Input or don't even get out of bed.™
If you're going to use a crappy Xbox gamepad to power your cabinet, you might as well completely ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up your cabinet, run Linux, and eat the 8 frames of input lag with fervor.
8 frames of input lag? you're telling me there's a 128ms of input lag on USB 360 controllers?
has anyone done any real-world, hard evidence producing, tests on 360 controller input lag?
No, I'm saying there's 8 frames of input lag with a Linux setup with a USB gamepad with SDL.
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for anyone interested the closest I could find was this video:
https://youtu.be/r0mDwAmQL8s
it's comparing the difference in lag between a wired and a wireless 360 controller on a PC. (of which the video concludes there is no discernible difference).
The total time from button push to reaction on the display was around 66ms (about 4 frames), but that also includes whatever display lag was occurring on this setup AND it was done using a 60FPS camera which means that it's only accurate to within 16ms (or 1 frame). Considering the recording mechanism and even the fastest displays have around 10-12ms of lag that means that the controllers have, at worst, between 40 and 55ms of lag. And without a comparison to an iPAC there's no telling if that's actually better or worse.
So we've confirmed that wired 360 pads are so laggy that they don't even seem to perform better than wireless devices. Yeah, that's a nice gamepad you've got there (geezus).
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
:applaud:
Good job on applauding factually incorrect information. :laugh2:
I think he's applauding the fact Howard knows how to express an opinion without sounding like a dick. Take notes.
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MAME uses Raw Input, and Raw Input has significantly less input lag than Direct Input or XInput. Direct Input processes input data before the application gets it, and that's why it's so much more laggy than the other APIs. It blows.
MAME uses RawInput for keyboard and mice input. It uses DirectInput for joystick. There are currently no other options for MAME at this time.
No USB gamepad can take advantage of Raw Input natively--only mice and keyboards can. Finally, you can use a PS/2 keyboard encoder with Raw Input in MAME. It's about as responsive as you can get.
You can use RawInput to read joystick data as with any other HID device. Call RegisterRawInputDevices with HID_USAGE_GENERIC_JOYSTICK and HID_USAGE_GENERIC_GAMEPAD then read the data in WM_INPUT. RawInput is a layer above the HID user library. You can in fact use it to read the raw joystick data and bypass RawInput altogether if you wanted to.
We're talking about HID devices communicating through USB. I have my doubts about the performance difference you claim between using DirectInput and RawInput for reading joystick data. If you want to prove me wrong by all means provide some profiling data to back up what you're saying. I'd also challenge you to compare the performance between windows messaging for reading a keyboard (WM_KEYDOWN / WM_KEYUP) and RawInput. I doubt you will find anything significant.
Clearly using RawInput is the recommended way for reading mice and keyboard and allows MAME to support multiple devices as well as higher DPI mice. I just don't believe there is any significant benefit to using RawInput when it comes to reading joystick input. The MAME developers could easily implement it for joysticks and remove all signs of DirectInput if they wanted to. If it makes such a big difference, as you suggest, you have to ask yourself why they haven't already. Finally DirectInput supports calibrated joysticks while RawInput does not.
As for USB vs PS/2 keyboard encoders. I am no expert in this area but then again I don't claim to be. But how about reading what Andy (the manufacturer of the Ultimarc I-PAC) has to say about it (http://www.ultimarc.com/usb_vs_ps2.html).
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My solution for MK9 and Injustice was to use Headsoft's VJoy which works fantastic, however MKX flat out wont recognize the VJoy virtual joysticks.
Perhaps MKX only supports XInput? For the next update to VJoy I think I'll copy the HID descriptor of an XBox 360 controller so XInput will recognise them.
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I think he's applauding the fact Howard knows how to express an opinion without sounding like a dick. Take notes.
That's certainly part of it. HC and I aren't exactly best friends, but he brings facts to the table fairly eloquently and BB brings opinions dressed as facts all while being coarse and vulgar. Its perfectly fine to think RAW input is the best but its not ok to belittle others because they believe there are other serviceable substitutes.
The applaud was mostly directed at me agreeing with HC that 360 controllers have become the defacto standard for PC gaming. I 'd venture a guess that 80% of my steam library supports a 360 controller natively; makes gaming much more enjoyable on a PC when you can just plug a controller in and everything works.
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MAME uses Raw Input, and Raw Input has significantly less input lag than Direct Input or XInput. Direct Input processes input data before the application gets it, and that's why it's so much more laggy than the other APIs. It blows.
MAME uses RawInput for keyboard and mice input. It uses DirectInput for joystick. There are currently no other options for MAME at this time.
No USB gamepad can take advantage of Raw Input natively--only mice and keyboards can. Finally, you can use a PS/2 keyboard encoder with Raw Input in MAME. It's about as responsive as you can get.
You can use RawInput to read joystick data as with any other HID device. Call RegisterRawInputDevices with HID_USAGE_GENERIC_JOYSTICK and HID_USAGE_GENERIC_GAMEPAD then read the data in WM_INPUT. RawInput is a layer above the HID user library. You can in fact use it to read the raw joystick data and bypass RawInput altogether if you wanted to.
Clearly using RawInput is the recommended way for reading mice and keyboard and allows MAME to support multiple devices as well as higher DPI mice. I just don't believe there is any significant benefit to using RawInput when it comes to reading joystick input. The MAME developers could easily implement it for joysticks and remove all signs of DirectInput if they wanted to. If it makes such a big difference, as you suggest, you have to ask yourself why they haven't already. Finally DirectInput supports calibrated joysticks while RawInput does not.
Even though it should work in theory, they haven't done it (and nobody will do it) because, unlike mice and keyboards, there are no standards for joystick data, and you don't really want to treat every gamepad generically, anyway, because they almost all have unique features. I've seen many different attempts at generic gamepad support using Raw Input, and they all seem to fail on one gamepad or another, because there's always some weird gamepad that doesn't behave the way you'd anticipate. An Xbox 360 pad is going to give you bytes in one format, and a Logitech gamepad is going to give you bytes in a different format. If you wanted to support USB gamepads with Raw Input properly, you'd have to write a byte parser that could handle basically every gamepad. At that point, you're almost writing gamepad drivers.
One gamepad's shoulder buttons might be analog whereas another gamepad's buttons might be digital. One gamepad's face buttons might be pressure sensitive whereas another gamepad's face buttons are digital. One gamepad might have force feedback and another might not. The Playstation 4 pad has a touch screen, and the 360 pad doesn't. What makes a gamepad? Which structure are you going to impose on all devices? So, like I said in the first place, there is no native way to take advantage of Raw Input with USB gamepads because there is no standard data structure for joysticks, and you'd effectively be writing per-gamepad support for each device.
(http://colsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/notime.jpg)
There are no standards there intentionally, because unlike mice and keyboards, there are all kinds of different HIDs that manufacturers might want to make, so it doesn't make sense to impose something on them. The reason Direct Input is still being used by some software is because it gives you a standardized way to access controls across a wide variety of devices (not just XInput devices). You're basically offloading the work onto the gamepad's driver at that point (although it should be noted that not all gamepad drivers implement Direct Input the same way).
If you think you can come up with a good, generic Raw Input solution that'll work on a wide variety of gamepads, please do us all a favor and submit the implementation to MAMEdev. Personally, I don't see it happening.
Microsoft has basically left people with no choices for gamepads in a pathetic attempt to force their Xbox gamepads on everyone, and given that there are stooges in this forum (one of the places where consumers should know better) that are happy about it, apparently, Microsoft's succeeded. It's even worse if you don't have a Microsoft gamepad, because then you have to run an XInput emulator on top of everything else. So bad. Some anti-trust action needs to be taken against Microsoft again. How is it not a conflict of interest for Microsoft to effectively screw over every 3rd party gamepad manufacturer to push their own gamepads?
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
:applaud:
Good job on applauding factually incorrect information. :laugh2:
I think he's applauding the fact Howard knows how to express an opinion without sounding like a dick. Take notes.
Calling someone else a dick is worse than anything I wrote. Take notes.
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My solution for MK9 and Injustice was to use Headsoft's VJoy which works fantastic, however MKX flat out wont recognize the VJoy virtual joysticks.
Perhaps MKX only supports XInput? For the next update to VJoy I think I'll copy the HID descriptor of an XBox 360 controller so XInput will recognise them.
I don' t know what the issue is exactly. I've seen some reports of people getting their joysticks recognized by unplugging their keyboard and mouse when launching the game such that the joystick is the only device attached... (I'm not exactly sure how they're launching the game without a keyboard or mouse or maybe they're just pulling them immediately after launching), not really an option with a virtual joystick though.
I misspoke when I said they were completely unrecognized at least the up and down left and right are recognized in the main menu and character selection screen on both sticks. but none of the buttons are. while in the controller configuration menu or during gameplay the direction buttons are no longer recognized.
for anyone interested the closest I could find was this video:
https://youtu.be/r0mDwAmQL8s
it's comparing the difference in lag between a wired and a wireless 360 controller on a PC. (of which the video concludes there is no discernible difference).
The total time from button push to reaction on the display was around 66ms (about 4 frames), but that also includes whatever display lag was occurring on this setup AND it was done using a 60FPS camera which means that it's only accurate to within 16ms (or 1 frame). Considering the recording mechanism and even the fastest displays have around 10-12ms of lag that means that the controllers have, at worst, between 40 and 55ms of lag. And without a comparison to an iPAC there's no telling if that's actually better or worse.
So we've confirmed that wired 360 pads are so laggy that they don't even seem to perform better than wireless devices. Yeah, that's a nice gamepad you've got there (geezus).
Wow that is a gross misconsturing of the evidence presented. the pads being "so laggy" wasn't at all confirmed. we have 0 basis for the level of lag present in the controllers because we don't have a baseline display lag measurement without the controllers to compare to. All we've confirmed is that there is no difference between the wired and wireless xbox 360 controllers.
I don't have any personal opinions on what the best control setup is, I just want something that 1. actually works and 2. will be as lag free as possible. This includes working not just in MAME but in PC games as well. The reason for considering an Xbox 360 based solution is because most PC games don't seem to properly support keyboards, or if they do they don't fully support them for 2 players and customizable menu navigation... so it completely fails requirement #1.
honestly arguing about the best input method is completely worthless conjecture without any actual evidence to back it up. You say that no one's going to waste their time with it, but then you go off ranting about how much better one option is over another. I don't know how you can make that claim without any actual evidence to back it up.
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most PC games don't seem to properly support keyboards
That's a joke, right? Most PC games support keyboards better than they support gamepads. The outlier here is Warner Bros/Netherrealm/Midway/whateverthehelltheywanttobecallednow, which is apparently a terrible company who doesn't know how to make a PC game. Ultra Street Fighter IV works perfectly with keyboards. Virtually every emulator works great with keyboards.
Raw Input is trivial to support with keyboards, and we have keyboard encoders for arcade controls. The problem's already solved. Instead of bending over for crappy games, you should be yelling at Midway/High Voltage to fix their broken products. There is NO excuse for PC games using the Unreal Engine to not support remappable keyboard controls properly.
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The 360 gamepad is the defacto standard for pc games now to the point of where if you plug one in, a game automatically configures itself optimized for the gamepad. They don't have any more lag than any other device. For the record keyboard encoders don't use raw input in the lagless sense that he's talking about. It's a USB device... data is still sent in packets. Any device in which there are more inputs than pins on the connector have some degree of lag as the data is sent serially.
:applaud:
Good job on applauding factually incorrect information. :laugh2:
I think he's applauding the fact Howard knows how to express an opinion without sounding like a dick. Take notes.
Calling someone else a dick is worse than anything I wrote. Take notes.
I didn't call you a dick. I said Howard knows how to communicate without sounding like one. But if the condom fits....
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http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html)
We'll settle this once and for all. :lol
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most PC games don't seem to properly support keyboards
That's a joke, right? Most PC games support keyboards better than they support gamepads. The outlier here is Warner Bros/Netherrealm/Midway/whateverthehelltheywanttobecallednow, which is apparently a terrible company who doesn't know how to make a PC game. Ultra Street Fighter IV works perfectly with keyboards. Virtually every emulator works great with keyboards.
it's not a joke I'm sure there are a lot of PC games that work great with a keyboard but when it comes to arcade-style games, in my experience the vast majority of the games I've tried to setup has either not supported 2 players on 1 keyboard, or had some keys that could not be remapped, requiring me to find some kind of hack in order to make it work.
I haven't setup USFIV but SSFIV definitely needed a work around to get 2 player keyboard support, as did Street Fighter X Tekken, as did Double Dragon Neon, all of the Melty Blood Games (which don't support remapping), all of the Touhou games (which don't support remapping).
Then there are all of the TTX games where are a whole other pain in the ass, especially games like Contra and Samurai Shodown but would be much easier to setup with a joystick and xpadder.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html)
We'll settle this once and for all. :lol
Excellent, thanks for doing that, I'm curious to see what the outcome is. This is the best thing to come out of this thread so far.
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Some anti-trust action needs to be taken against Microsoft again. How is it not a conflict of interest for Microsoft to effectively screw over every 3rd party gamepad manufacturer to push their own gamepads?
Here is where you lose me. How has Microsoft done this?
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Some anti-trust action needs to be taken against Microsoft again. How is it not a conflict of interest for Microsoft to effectively screw over every 3rd party gamepad manufacturer to push their own gamepads?
Here is where you lose me. How has Microsoft done this?
Instead of creating a flexible API for 3rd parties to make all kinds of different joysticks, they deprecated Direct Input and forced XInput on everyone, which is an API tailored to one specific type of gamepad: the Xbox gamepad. When your API supports basically one piece of hardware, what's the point? You might as well just hardcode everything anyway. They then leveraged their sway over console third parties to get them to stop supporting Direct Input, so your only option is either running a crappy XInput emulator or not being able to use your 3rd party joystick. Due to attrition (who really wants to run some stupid gamepad emulator for EVERY game?), people just give up and buy Microsoft's hardware. They're using their console and operating system to force hardware on people. It's absolutely a conflict of interest. It would be like Microsoft coming out with a graphics card and then making Direct3D 13 only work properly on it, using their Xbox influence to get developers to only make games for Direct3D 13, and Nvidia and AMD would have to write Direct3D 13 emulators just for their graphics cards to be able to play games.
Also, let's keep in mind that, due to the stupidity of XInput's implementation, it will eventually die off down the road when Microsoft finally loses its monopoly, and we'll be stuck running XInput emulators on future hardware probably just to be able to play this generation of games with a gamepad.
It's ---smurfing--- stupid.
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Instead of creating a flexible API for 3rd parties to make all kinds of different joysticks, they deprecated Direct Input and forced XInput on everyone, which is an API tailored to one specific type of gamepad: the Xbox gamepad. They then leveraged their sway over console third parties to get them to stop supporting Direct Input, so your only option is either running a crappy XInput emulator or not being able to use your 3rd party joystick. Due to attrition (who really wants to run some stupid gamepad emulator for EVERY game?), people just give up and buy Microsoft's hardware. They're using their console and operating system to force hardware on people. It's absolutely a conflict of interest. It would be like Microsoft coming out with a graphics card and then making Direct3D 13 only work properly on it, using their Xbox influence to get developers to only make games for Direct3D 13, and Nvidia and AMD would have to write Direct3D 13 emulators just for their graphics cards to be able to play games. It's ---smurfing--- stupid.
So no one else can write an API for Windows, only Microsoft can? seriously asking.
Your GPU "example" isnt accurate either. From what I gather you are implying that only microsoft can make controllers that conform to "360 standards" when in fact I know that both Razer , Saitek, and MadCatz make controllers that work on 360 and by extension, the PC. As for encoders , the PS360+ encoder can function as USB input for PC, PS3 and for 360 , and my Fanatec wheel works on PS3, 360 and PC. All 3rd party devices that work on PC and 360 with no Xinput emulators.
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unlike mice and keyboards, there are no standards for joystick data
There is a standard for joystick data; it's called a joystick/gamepad HID collection descriptor. How else would DirectInput interpret the data if there wasn't? You have to parse the HID report descriptor and take note of the input types and data ranges. By the time you wrap all that data you may as well be using DirectInput. It's really not that difficult using RawInput though, as you can see from this C++ source code (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/185522/Using-the-Raw-Input-API-to-Process-Joystick-Input).
A typical joystick will have x, y, z, rx, ry, rz, hatswitch and ~10 buttons. Reading this data is standardised by following the report descriptor. Once you know how to interpret the data and normalise the value ranges to whatever you need, the only thing left is to assign the inputs to the actions in the game. These should all be customisable by the user so the fact the layout may be different from manufacturer to manufacturer is irrelevant.
I'm guessing the XBox 360 controller is Microsoft's attempt at standardising the layout of inputs. Isn't that what you want; a standard? Any other manufacturer can use the same report descriptor if they so chose. They can even copy the same stick and button layout. As far as XInput is concerned if it's hard coded to only support Microsoft gamepads then I will admit that that is a pretty ---smurfy--- move on their behalf. XInput should really be available to use by any manufacturer even if the only restriction was to follow the standards set by Microsoft's own gamepad design.
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It's not hardcoded to only support microsoft gamepads, I'm using a madcatz gamepad right now, it's just hardcoded to have inputs in a set order regardless of control type and even if an input isn't used, an "empty" slot is there so that there isn't any need to enumerate axis and what not. There are different classes, like racing wheels and ect, BUT they use the same resolution of analog data, so the point is while that info is available to the developer, they can ignore it and still get good results.
So you'll always have x,y,z and rx,ry,rz even on devices that don't have those inputs like a fight pad. There will always be a hat (dpad) and more importantly, button 1 is ALWAYS A, button 2 B, ect.... This is how modern games can just assign a layout automatically... a standardization of the button order makes things easier. This is why it may appear that it's Microsoft only pads, because obviously a sony or Nintendo gamepad won't conform to this standard and thus won't get xinput approval. Then again, I very much doubt those companies want to be xinput compliant.
Sadly xinput might not be a thing long-term.... xb1 gamepads don't use xinput, but pc game developers like the standard so much that they are still using it for their games even though the 360 is last gen tech.
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But just to put a pin in this argument once and for all, competitive fighting game players often use ps3 or 360 compatible fight sticks for practice, even if they practice on the pc... so if it's good enough for them.....
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But just to put a pin in this argument once and for all, competitive fighting game players often use ps3 or 360 compatible fight sticks for practice, even if they practice on the pc... so if it's good enough for them.....
That was my original thought on the matter too. The PS360+ seems to be the gold standard for custom flight-sticks within the FGC so I was planning on swapping from the i-pac to a pair of those. If anyone is obsessive about lag it's competitive gamers. I'd suspect if there were any real problems they'd be people within that community making a stink about it.
In any case, I'm anxious to see what kind of results Calamity comes up with in his test between a keyboard input and an X360 pad, hopefully it can put this debate to rest.
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I honestly don't think there was ever a debate though. If we were in said FGC it might be different, but for our purposes... "hmm, this works" is about all we need. ;)
You'll notice even Andy and Randy have kind of shifted their products towards showing up as a joystick, because in this day and age keyboard encoders, sadly, are quickly becoming outdated tech.
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unlike mice and keyboards, there are no standards for joystick data
There is a standard for joystick data; it's called a joystick/gamepad HID collection descriptor. How else would DirectInput interpret the data if there wasn't? You have to parse the HID report descriptor and take note of the input types and data ranges. By the time you wrap all that data you may as well be using DirectInput. It's really not that difficult using RawInput though, as you can see from this C++ source code (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/185522/Using-the-Raw-Input-API-to-Process-Joystick-Input).
A typical joystick will have x, y, z, rx, ry, rz, hatswitch and ~10 buttons. Reading this data is standardised by following the report descriptor. Once you know how to interpret the data and normalise the value ranges to whatever you need, the only thing left is to assign the inputs to the actions in the game. These should all be customisable by the user so the fact the layout may be different from manufacturer to manufacturer is irrelevant.
I'm guessing the XBox 360 controller is Microsoft's attempt at standardising the layout of inputs. Isn't that what you want; a standard? Any other manufacturer can use the same report descriptor if they so chose. They can even copy the same stick and button layout. As far as XInput is concerned if it's hard coded to only support Microsoft gamepads then I will admit that that is a pretty ---smurfy--- move on their behalf. XInput should really be available to use by any manufacturer even if the only restriction was to follow the standards set by Microsoft's own gamepad design.
I had to smile when you linked that code example, because it doesn't work with Xbox 360 gamepads. :laugh2:
It is not as easy as you think it is. Like you said, if it was, gamepads would use Raw Input in MAME today.
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I honestly don't think there was ever a debate though. If we were in said FGC it might be different, but for our purposes... "hmm, this works" is about all we need. ;)
You'll notice even Andy and Randy have kind of shifted their products towards showing up as a joystick, because in this day and age keyboard encoders, sadly, are quickly becoming outdated tech.
The real problem is with emulation, you're guaranteed at least 1 frame of extra input lag over the real hardware _to begin with_. You have to eliminate lag anywhere you can to make emulation good.
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But just to put a pin in this argument once and for all, competitive fighting game players often use ps3 or 360 compatible fight sticks for practice, even if they practice on the pc... so if it's good enough for them.....
That was my original thought on the matter too. The PS360+ seems to be the gold standard for custom flight-sticks within the FGC so I was planning on swapping from the i-pac to a pair of those. If anyone is obsessive about lag it's competitive gamers. I'd suspect if there were any real problems they'd be people within that community making a stink about it.
In any case, I'm anxious to see what kind of results Calamity comes up with in his test between a keyboard input and an X360 pad, hopefully it can put this debate to rest.
Competitive gamers aren't all they're cracked up to be in terms of pickiness, really. Actually, the console versions of Street Fighter IV, for example, are very laggy. They're noticeably more laggy than playing SF4 on a PC at 144hz. Just because competitive gamers don't use it doesn't mean it's not better. Competitive gamers just go where the money is, and the money is coming from console manufacturers, so it's no surprise that they're playing gimp versions of the games.
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It's not hardcoded to only support microsoft gamepads, I'm using a madcatz gamepad right now, it's just hardcoded to have inputs in a set order regardless of control type and even if an input isn't used, an "empty" slot is there so that there isn't any need to enumerate axis and what not. There are different classes, like racing wheels and ect, BUT they use the same resolution of analog data, so the point is while that info is available to the developer, they can ignore it and still get good results.
So you'll always have x,y,z and rx,ry,rz even on devices that don't have those inputs like a fight pad. There will always be a hat (dpad) and more importantly, button 1 is ALWAYS A, button 2 B, ect.... This is how modern games can just assign a layout automatically... a standardization of the button order makes things easier. This is why it may appear that it's Microsoft only pads, because obviously a sony or Nintendo gamepad won't conform to this standard and thus won't get xinput approval. Then again, I very much doubt those companies want to be xinput compliant.
Sadly xinput might not be a thing long-term.... xb1 gamepads don't use xinput, but pc game developers like the standard so much that they are still using it for their games even though the 360 is last gen tech.
The Madcatz gamepads are just 360 guts internally. They _are_ 360 gamepads afaik.
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Your GPU "example" isnt accurate either. From what I gather you are implying that only microsoft can make controllers that conform to "360 standards" when in fact I know that both Razer , Saitek, and MadCatz make controllers that work on 360 and by extension, the PC. As for encoders , the PS360+ encoder can function as USB input for PC, PS3 and for 360 , and my Fanatec wheel works on PS3, 360 and PC. All 3rd party devices that work on PC and 360 with no Xinput emulators.
The MadCatz etc. gamepads you referenced are 360 pads internally. You even have to install Microsoft's 360 gamepad drivers for them to work. They're officially licensed Microsoft products. It's a pure scam. They're extorting licensing money off 3rd party console gamepad manufacturers and almost completely screwing over 3rd party PC gamepad manufacturers.
I'm willing to bet that nobody can find a single "native" XInput pad that isn't a Microsoft product internally and licensed by Microsoft.
See? This is why Microsoft gets away with this ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. It'd be laughable if it wasn't sad.
Geezus
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I had to smile when you linked that code example, because it doesn't work with Xbox 360 gamepads. :laugh2:
It is not as easy as you think it is. Like you said, if it was, gamepads would use Raw Input in MAME today.
It does work with an XBox 360 gamepad. It just needs a little modification (my first post in this thread gave you a hint).
Try changing this:
case WM_CREATE:
{
RAWINPUTDEVICE rid[2];
rid[0].usUsagePage = HID_USAGE_PAGE_GENERIC;
rid[0].usUsage = HID_USAGE_GENERIC_JOYSTICK;
rid[0].dwFlags = 0;
rid[0].hwndTarget = hWnd;
rid[1].usUsagePage = HID_USAGE_PAGE_GENERIC;
rid[1].usUsage = HID_USAGE_GENERIC_GAMEPAD;
rid[1].dwFlags = 0;
rid[1].hwndTarget = hWnd;
if(!RegisterRawInputDevices(rid, 2, sizeof(RAWINPUTDEVICE)))
return -1;
}
return 0;
Note the addition of the HID_USAGE_GENERIC_GAMEPAD registration. His original code only registered HID_USAGE_GENERIC_JOYSTICK which will not work with an XBox 360 controller.
Also his code for normalising axis data is lame but with a little work you could get it working fine (albeit with raw uncalibrated data).
So now back to the question... why doesn't MAME use RawInput for gamepads today when clearly it's possible (and just as easy as reading keyboard or mouse)?
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Still doesn't work here. Not buying it.
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Still doesn't work here. Not buying it.
I have it working with an XBox 360 controller here. I don't know what else to tell you :dunno
EDIT: Attached a photo
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I have an Xbox 360 SF4 fight stick, and it doesn't work. I'm telling you: it isn't as easy as you think it is. Some gamepads are just randomly not going to work with that solution. There's a reason it's not in MAME.
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The real problem is with emulation, you're guaranteed at least 1 frame of extra input lag over the real hardware _to begin with_. You have to eliminate lag anywhere you can to make emulation good.
And what does emulation have to do with Mortal Kombat X?
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The real problem is with emulation, you're guaranteed at least 1 frame of extra input lag over the real hardware _to begin with_. You have to eliminate lag anywhere you can to make emulation good.
And what does emulation have to do with Mortal Kombat X?
We're obviously not talking about just Mortal Kombat anymore, although MK10's apparently ---smurfy--- keyboard support is reason enough to skip the game entirely.
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We're obviously not talking about just Mortal Kombat anymore, although MK10's apparently ---smurfy--- keyboard support is reason enough to skip the game entirely.
You are right, its impossible to alter a game once its been released to the public ::)
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The only way it's going to get changed, in fact, is if people skip the game.
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And what does emulation have to do with Mortal Kombat X?
We're obviously not talking about just Mortal Kombat anymore, although MK10's apparently ---smurfy--- keyboard support is reason enough to skip the game entirely.
Going back to the original topic, I've been unable to get MKX to remap keys for use with my ipac setup, player 2 in particular seems to be ignored... you said in your first post that it was working fine for you. I'm curious if you'd share your secret as to how you got it to work.
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The only way it's going to get changed, in fact, is if people skip the game.
or complain to the dev and it gets fixed, like they did with Street Fighter IV
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Eh the game isn't finished yet. A very sad, but very true fact about modern games is that they are released broken and don't really get to a good, playable state, until the last patch is released. Whenever the final bit of DLC is released there will be a final cleanup patch and then we can judge it. Right now the game stutters due to a locked frame rate on most people's machines.
I seriously doubt keyboard support is a priority though.
Just for a second pretend we aren't who we are and are instead the typical pc gamer. Now obviously you can't play a fighter on a keyboard so you'll be picking up a gamepad or fight stick or what have you. NRS and HVS are probably thinking the same way. Keyboard encoders are kind of an underground, niche device only used by guys like us and possibly people in the sim community. Now I'm not making excuses for them, it still isn't a good idea to release a game that can't be played with the default input device for the platform, but considering you can't really play on a keyboard anyway.....
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remember that MAME does not support XInput natively
I noticed in Mame 0161 makefile a new pre-processor macro called "NO_USE_XINPUT". I haven't looked much further into it just yet but it does imply they have implemented XInput support.
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remember that MAME does not support XInput natively
I noticed in Mame 0161 makefile a new pre-processor macro called "NO_USE_XINPUT". I haven't looked much further into it just yet but it does imply they have implemented XInput support.
That's referring to Linux X Windows. It's not Microsoft's crapola.
Can you send me the binary and code for the Raw Input demo that is working on your machine?
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That's referring to Linux X Windows. It's not Microsoft's crapola.
Can you send me the binary and code for the Raw Input demo that is working on your machine?
It's funny I never noticed the macro before so it looked like something new to me, but alas you're right, it's nothing to do with Microsoft's XInput.
You can download the source from here (http://headsoft.com.au/download/mame/RawInputJoystickSource.zip) which includes a Visual Studio 2012 project file. The only modification I made was the one I posted. Just be aware the axis normalisation code is not right for XBox 360 controllers because centre is not "0". Also note that this code will not detect joysticks under Remote Desktop and I am yet to discover why (for keyboard and mice RawInput will detect special RDP drivers). Not being able to use Remote Desktop has turned me off attempting to implement support in my own engine. I think I'll stick with keyboard and mice support in RawInput and use DirectInput (and perhaps XInput) for joystick support. Yes I had RawInput support in GameEx Evo before you had it in Big Blue ;)
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Just be aware the axis normalisation code is not right for XBox 360 controllers because centre is not "0".
I thought there was a standard for joystick data. ;) I still think that Raw Input support will be putting in 200 different cases for different joysticks to work properly.
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I thought there was a standard for joystick data. ;) I still think that Raw Input support will be putting in 200 different cases for different joysticks to work properly.
There is a standard. As I said the example doesn't normalise the data correctly. Each axis has a min/max value. You need to use this data to convert it into whatever range you want by normalising it. How do you think DirectInput works? It doesn't hard-code values for each type of joystick.
So does the example work for your Xbox 360 SF4 fight stick?
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I thought there was a standard for joystick data. ;) I still think that Raw Input support will be putting in 200 different cases for different joysticks to work properly.
Ok, I've tried to be nice and bite my tongue.
If you insist on hammering a nail with a rock, you can't very well complain that the rock isn't doing a great job. Using raw input for managed devices when there isn't a need is an all around bass ackwards way of doing things. People use raw input for devices because they have no other choice, like in my troubleshooter 2 or in mame where it's the only way to read individual mice and keyboards... they don't do it because it's a convenient way of reading devices.
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G'day Guys,
Looks like this topic got derailed for a little while there......
... but still hopeful a solution could be found?
Just completed my arcade before MKX would release, thinking it would be the game I will sink most of my hours into.
So could could understand my disappointment when i was relegated back to playing it on my laptop with a plug in Xbox 360 controller.
Still love the game, lots of fun, but looking over the top of my laptop screen at my arcade gathering dust is a little disheartening :cry:
I have already tried a few workarounds with no success, most likely to work was via X360ce but it does not accept keyboard inputs, only Gamepad inputs.
Also tried IPAC-->VJoy-->X360ce but couldn't get the programs to play nice.
If anyone has found a working configuration it would be much appreciated! :cheers:
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Well like I said, and I know this ticks people off... the solution is to convert your cab to use 360 gamepad guts. Ever notice how any time there is a pc game released in the arcade style a thread pops up on how to get it to work with keyboard controls? Have you ever had any trouble playing or configuring these games with a 360 gamepad? If you want to play modern pc games on your cab, the most straightforward, hassle-free solution is to have your controls show up as a 360 gamepad. I'm converting mine as soon as I get a chance.... buy two wired pads... you are out maybe 40 bucks and an afternoon to solder on leads. Then I don't have to hack the games to play them anymore.
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I have to agree. If I ever decided to play PC games on my MAME cab, I'd swap out the IPAC for a couple of hacked controllers. If you can't solder multiple people offer pad hacking service, like Haruman.
I play PC games on my main PC, cause I like sitting down with a controller too.
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Thanks for the speedy reply!
Yeah, part of me knew that...... just when i thought i was finished with this build haha
I'm still hopeful i'll be able to find a workaround in the software side of things, as this is the only current PC title that i'm likely to play on my cab (until Street Fighter V of course).
If not i guess I know my what i'll be doing next night shift in the workshop.... ;)
If I do manage to find a workaround I'll be sure to post it up. :cheers:
Thanks Guys
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If it's possible I do intend on updating VJoy to report back the game pads as two XBox 360 pads. That should mean it will work for games like this.
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Here is what I'm going to try most likely....
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick)
People hated the d-pad on these things and thus you can get them for peanuts. Start, Back, LT and RT all have their own leads and the dpad (if you can call it that) uses microswitches, so it should be quite easy to hack. For 10 bucks it's worth a try anyway.
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Here is what I'm going to try most likely....
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick)
People hated the d-pad on these things and thus you can get them for peanuts. Start, Back, LT and RT all have their own leads and the dpad (if you can call it that) uses microswitches, so it should be quite easy to hack. For 10 bucks it's worth a try anyway.
wow those are cheap, and if LT and RT are common ground buttons instead of analog it makes it even easier to pad-hack.
Nice find.
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Yeah I've started to re-evaluate things this past year in terms of how I spend my free time. A software solution would be ideal to my cheapness, but I'm sure it would snowball out of control, having to constantly update when an oddball game comes out that just doesn't want to play nice for whatever reason, so hey.... 20 bucks total and the problem is solved... at least until something replaces the 360 gamepad (xbox one controller has ZERO chance of doing that, so we probably have a while).
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Yeah I've started to re-evaluate things this past year in terms of how I spend my free time. A software solution would be ideal to my cheapness, but I'm sure it would snowball out of control, having to constantly update when an oddball game comes out that just doesn't want to play nice for whatever reason, so hey.... 20 bucks total and the problem is solved... at least until something replaces the 360 gamepad (xbox one controller has ZERO chance of doing that, so we probably have a while).
Outside of the neitherealm games it'd make the TTX stuff way easier to setup as you could just have a joy2key script for each game's default key map.
I don't know if you've been following the lag test thread at all but vicosku performed some tests with an IPAC (through Raw Input) vs a Mayflash 360 stick (through Direct Input) and an IPAC vs a PS360+ and the results showed that in MAME there isn't a significant difference in lag.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,145174.0.html)
Though interestingly there was a slight difference depending on the 360 pad being used with the MayFlash occasionally taking a frame longer than the IPAC and the PS360+ occasionally taking a frame LESS than the IPAC. No idea how these PDP pads would stack up to something like the PS360+
When I get some time I'll be switching my main cab over from IPAC to a couple of PS360+ boards since I already have a bunch of them kicking around.
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That's to be expected, as the ps360+ isn't an "official" 360 gamepad, it doesn't have access to the decryption hardware and is probably having to use some sort of software-based solution. Depending upon the hardware manufacturer of the pad and what chips are inside I suppose you might be able to bypass encryption entirely... that's just a guess though.
Anyway 8ms vs 10ms.... lets put this in perspective for a minute. The snes refresh input rate was 33ms for most games and the genesis was in that ballpark as well. Didn't we play Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat just fine on those consoles? People get confused because the poll rate is quite quick on those older systems, but typically the pads were only polled at the end or beginning of each frame, which means that any data inbetween.... yeah, it was never polled.
I honestly doubt the refresh rate on a typical arcade pcb is much quicker either. So yeah for modern pc games it might be an issue, but even then I doubt it. 2ms is frikkin inconsequential.
Just out of curiosity, what's the going price on the ps360's and have you had good luck with them ect? I'm always a bit leery to buy homebrew adaptors.
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2ms is frikkin inconsequential.
Completely agreed. And thanks for the SNES information. That's interesting. The theorized 2ms difference that caused an occasional full 16.77ms frame delay was merely a finding that showed a slight difference between a Mayflash PCB and the superior IPAC/PS360+ results. Whether that really matters is a different topic, but I agree that it's too small to notice, myself. After all, after I started testing, I found out was running with an extra frame of lag I had no idea about previously. It feels nice to have gotten rid of that one frame, but I can't really tell the difference.
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Just out of curiosity, what's the going price on the ps360's and have you had good luck with them ect? I'm always a bit leery to buy homebrew adaptors.
They retail for $60 a piece + shipping ... if you can find them (most places seem perpetually out of stock or sell out as soon as they get them in).
I was looking to buy 2 of them and managed to find someone (custom joystick maker who was getting out of the business) who was selling 6 of them new for half price shipped for anyone willing to buy all 6. So I jumped on the deal. I've only cracked one open and played around with it a little bit but I haven't actually used any of them in a gaming situation yet. I plan to use 2 of them in my HyperSpin cab and 2 more for stand alone joysticks. I sold one to vicosku at my cost so he could run the lag test with it and I'll probably just keep the last one as a spare.
the interesting thing is that they've updated the firmware to improve these a couple of times now, at this point they support a large swath of major platforms (PS3, PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, SNES, NES, Xbox 360, Original Xbox, and PC). Potentially once they figure out the PS4 and Xbox One security it could support those as well with just a firmware update.
EDIT:
Another popular PCB within the fighting game community is the "Multi-Console Cthulhu" PCB which is notable because it's only $34 instead of the PC360's $60 price tag but it doesn't support Xbox 360 which is a deal breaker for most. Though it does support a few other consoles that the PS360 doesn't: PS3, PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, NES, SNES, Original Xbox, PC AND GameCube, and TG-16 (maybe 3DO as well?)
The PS360+ supporting 360 and PS3 seemed to make it the defacto standard for custom and high end fighting sticks.
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Useful info, thanks. Yeah I've actually got a teensy lying around and in theory I could program it to support most of those consoles BUT... 360 support, due to aforementioned encrypted data, is a bit beyond me. For the pc at least, that's the device you really want to emulate anyway.
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Useful info, thanks. Yeah I've actually got a teensy lying around and in theory I could program it to support most of those consoles BUT... 360 support, due to aforementioned encrypted data, is a bit beyond me. For the pc at least, that's the device you really want to emulate anyway.
If I didn't already have these PS360s I'd definitely just be buying those $10 PDP pads instead
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We are drifting pretty far away from the software section at this point but:
I found a site where someone was hacking up a higher-end pdp pad.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/129482/pdp-marvel-vs-capcom-3-fight-pad-pcb-diagram-not-suitable-for-dual-mod (http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/129482/pdp-marvel-vs-capcom-3-fight-pad-pcb-diagram-not-suitable-for-dual-mod)
So start and back look a bit hairy and of course the guide button and it's leds are always a pain in the butt, everything else on the other hand looks butt easy. Heck the dpad has it's own ribbon cable. Like I said, this is a higher end version, so the pcbs might not be identical, but if anything cheaper pads tend to have larger pcbs, so it's easier if anything.
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I spent a couple hours on this today and I think I made some progress. I have an old SlikStik CO2 controller that I'm using.
Go here and read all about how painful it is to configure MKX controls with a PC:
http://www.xgaming.com/support/questions/137/Mortal+Kombat+X+and+Komplete+Edition+PC+Setup (http://www.xgaming.com/support/questions/137/Mortal+Kombat+X+and+Komplete+Edition+PC+Setup)
When you get tired of reading that, go here read about the savior that is VJoy:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy (http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy)
If you don't want to read, go straight to the VJoy Download:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy (http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy)
You can download XArcade's custom INI file off the XArcade website (or just download mine here):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9q3xtaxy73jdeca/MKX-Arcade.ini?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9q3xtaxy73jdeca/MKX-Arcade.ini?dl=0)
Put the INI file (unzipped) in the same folder as wherever you installed VJoy.
My INI file mimicks an Xbox controller and I matched it with my SlikStik CO2 layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1coq40b1ui27gzw/MKX%20Controls.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1coq40b1ui27gzw/MKX%20Controls.png?dl=0)
Start VJoy and open up my INI file and now match my layout to yours. In the screenshot, I used trial/error to figure out which "button" corresponded to which Xbox controller button and therefore just inputted my own buttons within VJoy.
IMPORTANT: Make sure you check the box "Enabled" in VJoy and leave VJoy open (running in background) or it won't register when you go to open MKX.
Player 1 is VJoy "Virtual" Joystick 1 and player 2 is the other in the dropdown.
As long as VJoy is running in the background, you shouldn't have any issues while inside MKX. I was able to get in/out of menus and fights just fine.
Referring to my screenshot (and Player 1 keys specifically):
I mapped a key as recognized by my IPAC ("Z" for player 1 and "I" for Player 2) to bring up Moves/Options. I use the "A" (Green button on Xbox controller which is my "0" key on IPAC which is "Back Kick" to MKX) to Enter and the "B" (Red button on an Xbox controller which is my "X" key on IPAC which is "Forward Kick" to MKX) to Exit.
To bring up the Moves/Options, I mapped that to "Button 10" in VJoy, which is my "Z" key on my IPAC.
Just map something similar/mirror for Player 2. It seems to work okay so far.
I used LEDBlinky to light up the buttons in their respective color so it makes it a bit easier to distinguish what does what:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ff49xlrp9awjb18/MyControlsMKX.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ff49xlrp9awjb18/MyControlsMKX.png?dl=0)
This might seem confusing, but it took me like 10 minutes to do. It took me 20 minutes to trial/error to figure out what button corresponds to what on the Xbox controller (in VJoy), and even longer to type this out.
No hacking controllers required.
Hope that helps people out until a better "fix" comes along. ;)
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Due to Injustice, I caved a while back and switched to hacked xbox360 fightpads.
It works, but it's not the dream solution I thought it would be.
IMO, the most hassle free solution overall is still a keyboard encoder configured to not use any special keys (ALT, CTRL, etc) paired with the "SSFIV keyboard workaround" (x360kb) TheManuel linked to. Just don't play the couple games that it won't work with. If the x360ce guys would just add back keyboard support, all would be right with the world.
Hacked pad Pros:
It is plug and play for most new pc games.
If the ID's get messed up, all you have to do is unplug them and replug them in the order you want.
4 player support (which is rarely supported for dinput devices. You can use x360kb but it doesn't block buttons and you'll run out of keys that your CP doesn't use for the game's keyboard mapping)
Some PC games require you to press the spacebar or some other key to continue which you probably don't have mapped to your start or P1 first button. The xbox A button always works on these screens.
Cons (most of which I didn't see coming):
Some emulators don't recognize the trigger buttons since they show up as an axis.
Some games require you to map all the buttons even if some do the same thing as combos. In the case of at least one game this meant I had to trigger a button press for a button that wasn't wired to my CP. Not a big deal to do once, but it was annoying (IIRC it was MKK, but I could be wrong).
Quite of few of the independent games (Limbo, Locomolito's games, a few others I can't remember) only get input from the thumbstick with no way to remap. I don't want to have to switch between D-Pad and L-stick on the hacked gamepad PCB. A workaround is on my to-do list.
Some newer PC games don't allow you to remap the controls if using an xbox360 pad (but if using the x360kb workaround with a keyboard encoder, you can change them in the kb ini file) This was the case with castle crashers. I couldn't play it anymore after switching to hacked pads because I only did 7 buttons. The one I left out (LT) was required to play and couldn't be remapped. I could play it just fine with a keyboard encoder and x360kb.
I know nothing about lag. I do know that I can never seem to make the jumps on console games that I think I should be able to, but that happens with every input device.
I didn't bother putting any console emulators on my new cab.
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Good stuff to know... a few solutions to your problems
You can use unofficial drivers to split out the axis as well as a few of the tools mentioned previously in this thread. It isn't an ideal plug-n-play solution, but it is a solution.
You should always hack a pad to use the analog stick... this is counter-intuitive, but hat switches are rarely supported on the pc and that's what a dpad shows up as. This isn't so much a 360 problem but a legacy problem....interfacing with a hat on direct input (NOT Xinput) is a pain in the butt due to the oddball masking. 360 "fight sticks" generally have a switch to make the joystick show up as either the analog stick or dpad to help with this issue.
I'm not sure if not allowing you to remap controls is actually a problem... that's kind of the point, but I get what you are saying... be leery if you don't intend to use all the buttons. Something to keep in mind is on a lot of the simpler games the screen might say only one button does an action but really a few do... like start generally works with start and the a button and often any button really.
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...As long as VJoy is running in the background, you shouldn't have any issues while inside MKX. I was able to get in/out of menus and fights just fine.
I tried getting VJoy to work for hours, even used the X-Arcade INI with no luck. I know how to set it up because I use it successfully with several other games but MKX just ignores it. Is there some other patch or something that you're using on your setup to get it to recognize a virtual joystick?
Hacked pad Pros:
...
If the ID's get messed up, all you have to do is unplug them and replug them in the order you want.
THAT IMO is not a pro but almost certainly a dealbreaker con. In order to unplug and plug back in the controllers on my setup I would have to pull the machine out from the wall and open the back up. not something I'd want to have to do every time the machine boots up with the controllers in the wrong order.
Most of the items on your con list can be fixed with Xpadder to emulate keyboard strokes with your game pads... in any instance where something has better keyboard support than joystick support then disable the joysticks for that game and use xpadder. This is particularly useful for Taito Type X games which primarily use a keyboard and not a joystick and many of which are difficult or impossible to remap.
My idea is to use the gamepads then setup Xpadder profiles for each game to map the controls to whatever the default keys are, in the instances where the game has poor keyboard support then I can use the gamepads natively in-game.
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Ive had 2 controllers plugged into my main PC and they've never lost their IDs even after numerous restarts. Plugged into the rear USB on board ports, no hubs or that kinda stuff.
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Yeah the only time you are going to have that problem is if you are hot swapping stuff. A sure fire solution is to run stuff through a hub... things are powered in sequence.
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...As long as VJoy is running in the background, you shouldn't have any issues while inside MKX. I was able to get in/out of menus and fights just fine.
I tried getting VJoy to work for hours, even used the X-Arcade INI with no luck. I know how to set it up because I use it successfully with several other games but MKX just ignores it. Is there some other patch or something that you're using on your setup to get it to recognize a virtual joystick?
Unfortunately no. I'm running it exactly how I outlined in that post from yesterday. I was surprised that it worked because of how others were reporting that VJoy was not performing to expectations. I was expecting all sorts of headaches, but the only thing that took time was sorting out what buttons do what.
For those unfamiliar with MKX, you can get away with mapping just 5 buttons in VJoy for MKX. Of course, you have to map the directionals and the start button (options), but you only need to map Buttons 1, 2, 3, 4, and Button 8 & 10.
1=X=FP
2=A=FK
3=B=BK
4=Y=BP
8=RT=Block
10=Options/Start
EDIT: I just discovered that if you don't map RB and LB in VJoy, you can't rotate left/right in 90 degree increments when walking thru the Krypt. So I guess you'll have to map those too.
If you want to throw, you can just press 1+2 together.
If you want to interact, you can just press 1+4 together.
If you want to flip stance, it's the same as an Xray which is 2+8+3 together.
Today, while messing around, I noticed VJoy was an "active" process in the Task Manager...but it wasn't actually running in the background. I killed the process and then clicked on the VJoy shortcut to restart. When VJoy re-opened, I had to reopen my MK.INI and then click on the "Enabled" radio box. I minimized it and started MKX. Works fine on my end.
This is probably just a game issue, but one thing I've noticed that's a little annoying at the player select screen is that if Player1 is on the left side of the cabinet and Player2 on the right, but Player2 picks a "Player vs Player" battle, his/her character will be on the left side and not the right. Essentially, whomever selects the style of the match to be played will always default to being the character selected on the left side of the character select (and eventually the arena). It doesn't differentiate based on which side of the control panel was activated. So I guess if you want to play from the side of the cabinet you're sitting/standing at, you have to decide who picks the style of the match.
Likewise, if Player2 is standing/sitting on the right side of the cabinet and chooses any One Player style match, the character select will always be from the left side and not the right. So that brings up a question of how does a single player ever pick their character on the right side (or avoid starting on the right side of the arena)?
Let me stress, this is only annoying as when the actual match starts, both players start flipping around all over the place and it probably doesn't matter in the long run. I was just making the observation. ;)
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Bad thing about having VJoy installed.....it doesn't seem to play well with my PSX Dualshock when I hook it up using MotionJoy.
If VJoy was installed, when I go to configure my PSX Dualshock in ePSXe 1.9.25, the buttons will immediately default to something other than the button I inputted.
I unplugged every other USB device and was able to single out VJoy as the culprit. As soon as I uninstalled VJoy, I could then configure my PSX Dualshock normally within ePSXe.
I ordered a wired Xbox 360 controller because I've heard those are pretty much plug/play and I'm hoping it will play nice with VJoy installed. It would suck if just to play MKX I had to re-install VJoy every time.
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Here is what I'm going to try most likely....
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_49?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1432013265&sr=1-49&keywords=arcade+stick)
People hated the d-pad on these things and thus you can get them for peanuts. Start, Back, LT and RT all have their own leads and the dpad (if you can call it that) uses microswitches, so it should be quite easy to hack. For 10 bucks it's worth a try anyway.
Nice find! I've been on holidays for a while so haven't really given any thought to a work around in the software, but as you said at this point the extra time i'm likely to spend on a solutions probably outweighs the price tag of those badboys!
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I attempted the ech347's method and was successful in getting vjoy to work with MKX.
The only issue I have is that on the main menu screen, the jstik jumps as if you have clicked the switch twice. However this is only on the main screen, once you get to the character select, this bug goes away.
Also, for those wanting to do a fresh PC build and not deal with a pad hack, use a KADE encoder. Since it emulates a HID USB, xbox, ps3, or ps2 controller, you can use that to connect your control panel controls to. It works flawlessly, no vjoy, ipac, or pad hack needed. The mapping is also much simpler using the KADE device.
Now that i know this is possible, I will be building a dedicated MKX machine for the collection.
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I've upgraded to Windows 10 and it appears that even though VJoy seems to install okay, MKX completely ignores it.
There are new versions of VJoy, but there is no GUI interface like with version 1.0.
Anybody come up with a software solution similar to VJoy or care to share how they got VJoy working with Win10?
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I ended up using kades for MKX.
However the WB called it quits on the MKX support, so i dumped PC and went console.
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I've upgraded to Windows 10 and it appears that even though VJoy seems to install okay, MKX completely ignores it.
There are new versions of VJoy, but there is no GUI interface like with version 1.0.
Anybody come up with a software solution similar to VJoy or care to share how they got VJoy working with Win10?
Well that sucks.
I was going to suggest a solution to you for disabling vjoy while not in use (see here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135996.msg1518079.html#msg1518079)), as I struggled with a similar problem where vjoy would interfere with the x360ce hack on SFIV. Launching vjoy and the game with an ahk script and calling devcon to enable/disable vjoy before/after playing the game, fixed that.
However, now it looks like Windows 10 put the kibosh on that. I don't own MKX yet but if it's going to be this painful, when I get it I'll just play with my x360 gamepad and call it a day. I struggled for years holding on to Windows XP to avoid these problems but it got to a point where I could not play more recent games in my cab, like Injustice. Now that I use the PC inside the cab for actual modern PC gaming with my x360 gamepad and a long HDMI cable hooked up the family room TV upstairs, I'm not willing to keep the system in an outdated state just to be able to use my arcade controls on a few games that don't play nice. It sounds like unless I get back into the hobby and hack some x360 pads I'm out of luck with this game.
I'm always remain hopeful a software solution will crop up, though.
By the way, I should mention that my Injustice / vjoy setup works fine in my machine with Windows 10 so don't discard there being some sort of issue on your end. I'll let you know if I think of something or if I buy the game and get it to work.
Good luck!
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I ended up using kades for MKX.
However the WB called it quits on the MKX support, so i dumped PC and went console.
^^ This ^^
The full and complete game will never be released on the pc so there isn't much point. Also the game is horribly optimized, so it doesn't run smoothly on the typical "middle of the road" pcs that most people use for a mame cab.
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eh, I picked up a steam key pretty cheap from some oddball website a month or two ago ($11 IIRC), but then it wouldn't run on my cab because I only had a 512mb video card.
I still haven't seen the game launch. :lol :'(
Finally gave in and ordered a 2GB 750ti the other day.
Not sure how well that will do, but at least the game will launch.
I don't mind running newer games at 1280x720 with medium quality settings on the cab.
I'm used to playing old, low resolution games on it.
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If I can find a good virtual 360 controller program (or make one... I'm just not sure what I need) I'm going to just buy the xbox one XL version and stream it. I was thinking of doing that for the few arcade games on it (like Killer Instinct).
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The full and complete game will never be released on the pc so there isn't much point. Also the game is horribly optimized, so it doesn't run smoothly on the typical "middle of the road" pcs that most people use for a mame cab.
Well, PC games go fear really cheap a year after release so I've just been waiting for a good deal, knowing there are issues with this port. It does suck that WB has not had an honest go at PC games and now seems to be quitting the medium altogether, at least for its fighters since they are not releasing the Kombat Pack 2 on the PC. I suppose it's not lucrative enough for them to care. Probably the initial success of SFIV on the PC drove WB to port its fighters to the PC but that seems to be dying out now. Actually, WB games in general have a bad track record on the PC (Arkham Knight).
Regrettably, Aliens and Predator are childhood favorite movies of mine and I have a soft spot for the franchises although most of the recent work on them has ranged from mediocre to horrid (AvP Requiem). Having both in the same game would have been nice. Incidentally, I'm currently going through the 2010 AvP game and I'm having a good time although it's not particularly remarkable. At least the aliens look more standard than in MKX, where their arms look pretty chunky.
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If I can find a good virtual 360 controller program (or make one... I'm just not sure what I need) I'm going to just buy the xbox one XL version and stream it. I was thinking of doing that for the few arcade games on it (like Killer Instinct).
Look up the brooks Universal fighting boards, I just installed 2 for my xboxone and they work pretty good. I also went xboxone for Killer instinct as well. However Sony bought up the exclusive rights to Tekken and Streetfighter, so those won't hit the xboxone. I guess payback for the killer instinct BS microsoft pulled.
I'm sitting on 800.00 pc now because of the drop of that port, on top of that the brooks boards aren't compatible with my gaming mobo, so i just got hosed all the way around. I'm through with PC ports, final burn.
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I think the ps4 has a streaming service. Mind you that means you have to buy a xb1 AND a ps4, but there are options.
Actually all sources point to SFV being a glitchly, incomplete mess. Mind you I'm sure they will fix it eventually, but it's going to be months before it even has the arcade mode. The game IS getting a pc release and aside from input issues Capcom usually does a pretty good pc port. As for Tekken... well... it's Tekken... no big loss there. ;) Also expect SFV Turbo Hyper Edition to be released on all consoles. They've pulled this "exclusive" stuff before. RE4 was supposed to be a gamecube exclusive and Nintendo helped with the publishing. It still got a release on the ps2 a couple of years later.
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I think the ps4 has a streaming service. Mind you that means you have to buy a xb1 AND a ps4, but there are options.
Actually all sources point to SFV being a glitchly, incomplete mess. Mind you I'm sure they will fix it eventually, but it's going to be months before it even has the arcade mode. The game IS getting a pc release and aside from input issues Capcom usually does a pretty good pc port. As for Tekken... well... it's Tekken... no big loss there. ;) Also expect SFV Turbo Hyper Edition to be released on all consoles. They've pulled this "exclusive" stuff before. RE4 was supposed to be a gamecube exclusive and Nintendo helped with the publishing. It still got a release on the ps2 a couple of years later.
This is good news, about the hyper edition, will be a good addition to the fighting arsenal in the MKX cabinet.
What funny is the SFIV suite was on the 360, but out of the 104 backwards compaitble games for the xboxone, not one includes any of the SfIV 360 games.
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The Premium Edition of this game, which includes Kombat Pack #1, is on sale again at Bundle Stars for $12.50. I'm tempted to buy it but if I can't play it with my arcade controls, there is not much point in it for me.
I don't suppose anybody has come across any recent breakthroughs on getting this to work?
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The Premium Edition of this game, which includes Kombat Pack #1, is on sale again at Bundle Stars for $12.50. I'm tempted to buy it but if I can't play it with my arcade controls, there is not much point in it for me.
I don't suppose anybody has come across any recent breakthroughs on getting this to work?
Not sure what you mean, the fix is in the thread, i got it to work with an IPAC, KADE and Brooks board
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Not sure what you mean, the fix is in the thread, i got it to work with an IPAC, KADE and Brooks board
I'm referring to the fact that it appears evh347's method does not work with Windows 10, according to this post (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,144993.msg1562832.html#msg1562832).
Do you have it working with Windows 10?
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Not sure what you mean, the fix is in the thread, i got it to work with an IPAC, KADE and Brooks board
I'm referring to the fact that it appears evh347's method does not work with Windows 10, according to this post (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,144993.msg1562832.html#msg1562832).
Do you have it working with Windows 10?
Ah ok i see the post now, no i was on windows 7, didnt see a need to upgrade to 10 for arcade machine. I'm like you an held onto to xp as long as i could, so now im doing the same with 7 on any arcade build since its still supported.
Have you tried running Vjoy in win 7 compatability mode?
I just use a 360 stick on my win 10 PC and went console on my arcade rig. The whoorahh has kinda died out for MKX on PC, too many people burned so you wont see much support on it. Your only out 12.00 just get it and toy around with it, worse case scenario use a jstick or build you a small fightstick with a kade.
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That's fine. Worst case scenario I can simply play it with my xbox 360 controller. I just wanted to be able to use my arcade cabinet's controls. The cab doubles as a gaming PC for me. In fact, I hardly every play arcade games anymore except fighters occasionally. I also have more games than time to play them so I can wait for basement bargain prices too.
Thanks for the tips.
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That's fine. Worst case scenario I can simply play it with my xbox 360 controller. I just wanted to be able to use my arcade cabinet's controls. The cab doubles as a gaming PC for me. In fact, I hardly every play arcade games anymore except fighters occasionally. I also have more games than time to play them so I can wait for basement bargain prices too.
Thanks for the tips.
Same here all i play is fighters occasionally, another idea, is to look at Killer instinct PC forums, the support level will be way more active, im sure since that just dropped people will inquire about IPAC controls and getting that to work as i'm sure it will have the same issues that MKX had.
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Good idea. I'll keep an eye on that.
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I finally picked this game up when the Premium edition went for ~$9 at gamesplanet.de. It is currently at $12.50 at Bundle Stars and seems to be at that price almost all of the time.
I'm happy to report that the vjoy method I use for Injustice to map my arcade control panel buttons (keyboard encoder) works just as well with this game. I was up and running in an hurry, having the setup from Injustice already. If anything, I was pleasantly surprised to find almost by accident that the key blocking feature in vjoy works fine in Windows 10, which helps a lot because there is now no conflict with keyboard keys that are hard-coded to navigate the game's interface, if you have those keys mapped to your arcade controls. This feature used to not work on Windows 7 and I always assumed it would not work on Windows 10 either but it does.
The only setup difference between Injustice and MK10 is that this game shows the mapped inputs as xbox controller labels: A, B, X, Y, RB, RT, etc., whereas Injustice would show them simply as numbered inputs: 1, 2, 3,...
The only caveat with the vjoy.ini method is that the drivers that vjoy installs may interfere with the x360ce hack used for other games like SFIV. I get around that by automatically disabling the driver upon game exit and re-enabling it when launching the game with my AHK launching script. This may not be necessary for everyone's setup but it's a very feasible solution. The code I use to disable/enable the vjoy drivers can be found here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135996.msg1518079.html#msg1518079).
If anybody needs more details to get this to work, just post here and I'll help.
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If anything, I was pleasantly surprised to find almost by accident that the key blocking feature in vjoy works fine in Windows 10, which helps a lot because there is now no conflict with keyboard keys that are hard-coded to navigate the game's interface, if you have those keys mapped to your arcade controls. This feature used to not work on Windows 7 and I always assumed it would not work on Windows 10 either but it does.
Yeah windows 10 is an odd beast. As you may or may not know I've been at this since 1999. Many of my old as crap legacy projects that haven't worked right since windows xp, magically work again. Then again some things break, like video card management software.
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Overall, I would say I'm in a good place right now with Windows 10. There is nothing I'm missing after my transition from Windows 7, which was a nice OS to begin with.
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The "Premium" version of the game is at $10 now at the Humble Store (https://www.humblebundle.com/store/mortal-kombat-x-premium-edition). It's really a good deal. As some may know, the XL update is coming to PC after all on 04-Oct. Current owners will get the XL update (netcode, balance and a some bonus content). Premium owners at that point would only have to buy the Kombat Pack 2 to get the full version. I don't know what kinds of deals we'll see for the full XL package in the near future.
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Anyone figure out a good way to get their arcade cabinet's IPAC to work with the new MKX game for PC?
Yes use this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,151830.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,151830.0.html)
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Use the U360 in output mode with an Ipac. I did that yesterday and it works.