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1   News Board / Re: mGalaxy v7.5 releasedon Today at 09:59:44 am

Started by mgalaxy - Last post by ethanwick

beautiful very interesting :applaud:

2   Everything Else / Re: DVD/Blu-ray ripping softwareon Today at 08:17:05 am

Started by BadMouth - Last post by Malenko

Not the answer you are looking for, but its faster for me to download a DVD/BluRay rip than it is for me to do it myself. I don't even have any SATA drives in my computer anymore, let alone an optical one.

3   Everything Else / Re: 8 bit Christmas.on Today at 08:13:32 am

Started by Howard_Casto - Last post by Malenko

I'm not sure why you felt the need to Xiaouplain graphics to me, I've done professional work as a graphic artist. I just prefer to be a network and systems architect.
Also unsure if you grasp that the genesis has a 9 bit system palette of 512 colors but was still capable of displaying 4,096 colors (total not at once).

In an effort to try and keep this topic on track for this objectively meh movie, there is a thread all about the Genesis and its wonderful colors:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,165910.0.html


I Noticed that you said  "Genesis FM SAMPLES"  The Genesis chip is  "FM SYNTHESIS"  NOT  "SAMPLES".
The SNES would be able to simulate anything the Genesis did via FM Synth samples.
I didn't say the Genesis used FM samples, I said the SNES could playback anything the Genesis made by sampling the audio, then playing it back on the SNES system.
It would not be 100% perfect but it would be serviceable. I'd say its like holding a tape recorder up to a radio :) IT IS FUN TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS TO HIGHLIGHT THINGS YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!

I'm *really* curious what your 7 games are. Please make a new thread called  "Steve's List of the only 7 Genesis games worth playing" so we don't derail this thread any more.
As for my top Gen games...  the ones that immediately pop to mind are:
You are missing a plethora of great Genesis games.

4   Consoles / Re: The Sega Genesis and colorson Today at 07:59:48 am

Started by Malenko - Last post by Malenko

I didnít own a Genesis or a SNES back in the day, so I hope Iím reasonably neutral on this issue.
I'm neutral for the other reason, I had them both and loved them both. I whole heartedly agree with everything you wrote. The issue with comparing the 2 systems is when the people who have a bias for one or the other attack the platform they dislike. 

5   Consoles / Re: The Sega Genesis and colorson Today at 07:35:07 am

Started by Malenko - Last post by Grasshopper

I didnít own a Genesis or a SNES back in the day, so I hope Iím reasonably neutral on this issue.

Anyway, FWIW, I donít think thereís much difference between the two platforms in practice. In terms of overall capabilities, and game quality, I tend to bracket them together.

A palette of 512 colours vs a palette of 32,768 colours might sound like a huge difference, but in practice itís only really relevant if youíre trying to create photo-realistic images. For the simple cartoon graphics that were used by most SNES and Genesis games, itís pretty much irrelevant.

However, I think itís fair to say that, very broadly speaking, Genesis games tended to have a more gritty and adult feel to them, whereas SNES games tended to aim for a more Ďcuteí aesthetic (although there are plenty of exceptions to that rule on both platforms). For that reason, Genesis developers tended to pick a more subdued palette for their games compared to their SNES counterparts. However, thatís simply a design choice, and doesnít really say anything about the capabilities of the underlying hardware.

Started by flybynight - Last post by John Bennett

John,
Would it help your reverse-engineering efforts if you had two actual RR2 boardsets?  You could hook up an oscilloscope to see/decode the packets between the two systems, and/or monitor input/output on the pins to get a better idea of what's going on.  But I think that alone would be quite the setup.  You'd also have to build out most of the rest of the controls/video to get both games fired up, and a linked game started.

If you lived in the US, I'd have no problem giving you both my RR2 boardsets, as outside the US, I'd imagine shipping would be insane.  Just throwing it out there... I've got my RR2 twin cab converted to mame, so no need for these boardsets.

That's a very kind offer (and also nice to be reminded you can now run without boardsets due to all this emulation tinkering).
I'd say I'm ok though, thanks. I put a loopback on Rolling Thunder 2 a while ago to scope the comms (in the test mode) and that gave me the basic gist of what's going on.
Incase I needed more, I bought a Final Lap dual boardset I could wire-up.
But I haven't  needed to yet...- I tend to find just using the MAME debugger and a text window (turn on 'verbose' in the mame cfg and you can see some of my debugs) and I can get a good enough idea of what's going on. It's about stepping through the game code and commenting it, in order to work out what it's expecting from the chip, in terms of where data should be. I effectively need to see what the comms IC has to do in order to keep the game code happy.

I'm starting to think the 'loop' is purely a software thing. One board sends to the next, then the game code has to take the data and put it back into the comms IC buffer to send to the third board. I'd previously assumed this was automated. So might have made a little progress - I think there's something fundamental like this which is stopping 3/4 of the games from working.

7   Everything Else / Re: 8 bit Christmas.on Today at 06:42:18 am

Started by Howard_Casto - Last post by Xiaou2

Quote
The color palette wasn't dim, developers just used the darker colors more frequently.

 Yes, the Genesis has bright colors to chose from.  The problem is, that when you need more than two
or three shades of a color, to make a nicely shaded object... then you quickly run out of options.

 I do not know the memory constraints, and the colors per sprite limits... which also limit what a
developer can do in-game... vs  in a Demo.   With a demo, for example.. you can devote 100%
of a systems resources to making a certain effect.   With a game... you have to balance the systems
resources... between sound, graphics, and program logic.

 A Genesis Demo could also feature nothing but a full cartridge worth of sampled speech / music..
at quite a shocking level of quality.   However, again... the developers were not going to have CD
quality samples, because then they would not have enough room in the game carts for decent
graphics to be stored as well.


 As any decent artists knows... there are many tricks you can use to get around certain limitations.
In the case of your SF picture, you can see the use of Dithering (alternating patterns), to help create
the illusion of an in-between color shade.

 In your examples of both Sonic and Super Mario games... these are more in line with "Cartoon"
flat-shading.  Meaning... they are mostly large single color fills, that do not have much shading.

 When looking at other side by side comparisons... it becomes clear that the limits of color
shades that they have to chose from, greatly effects the end results of the final picture.

 

 Because the Gen lacks as many "Browns",  you will notice that the books are very different in their shading.
The Gen version has to use more dark shades, because it does not have as many lighter shades available.

(or at very least, it cant afford to use as many shades, due to the shared tileset color and memory limits)

 And since the shading ends up having a much greater Contrast level... they likely chose that darker
blue as the background, to better match the overall darker brown shades "average".

 The better the Artist... the more likely they can make something look extremely well, despite the limits
of the system.  Case in point:  Earthworm Jim.  I was never a fan of the game, due to the clunky control...
but the graphics are on a whole other level... compared to most typical console games.  They were
drawn by very high level, traditionally trained artists.. and it shows.

Quote
The SNES would be able to simulate anything the Genesis did via FM Synth samples. It wouldn't be identical but it would be serviceable.

 Thats simply not true.   Listen to this song from Thunderforce II:

 

 Most especially, note the sweeping of the sounds.  Its one thing to sample a single note.. but its very different to
try to represent complex dynamic sound sweeping.  Its one reason why Simulated electric guitar, rarely sounds good at all.

 Target Earth  (Skip to 10:46 (Song title = Surprise)
 
 

 There are a number of even more complex musical pieces in both of those games, that never could be duplicated
on the SNES.

 The SNES is more like a generic Midi sound.   It was FAR easier for standard musicians to make music with it...
but it cant even come close to the complex and breathtaking sounds and compositions possible, with an FM synth like
the Genesis's chip.

 In fact, many Genesis games have Horrible audio... because the people whom they chose to create music and
sound effects for their games... could not really utilize the FM synth properly.  However... those that DID know
how to use it... produced absolute ICONIC Masterpieces.

EDIT:

 I Noticed that you said  "Genesis FM SAMPLES"

 The Genesis chip is  "FM SYNTHESIS"  NOT  "SAMPLES".   To make sound with an FM Synthesizer, you need to
program Mathematical Algorithms.   While the chip also allows the playback of actual recorded samples... the majority of the music and
sound effects, were hand-programmed, with custom made Algorithms.  This not only saved massive amounts of memory space...
but FM Synth sounds can be FAR more dynamic and powerful, than any "Sample Player".   In fact... a lot of music that has samples in it.. were sampled from true Synthesizers.


 As for my top Gen games...  the ones that immediately pop to mind are:

 Thunderforce II  (IMO - Far superior to the rest of the series, and my fav. shump of all time)
 Target Earth  (Insane Arcade level difficulty, great story, great music, unusually creative gameplay elements. A real masterpiece of work)
 Castle of Illusion
 Strider
 Ghouls and Ghosts
 The Revenge of Shinobi
 Rocket Knight Adventures  (Admittedly, this one got a bit too difficult near the end for younger me, so Ive yet to fully beat it)
 Zany Golf  (Not a powerhouse game.. just creative, fun, funny, challenging)

 These are the games that I could easily play over and over and over again... without getting bored of them.
As said, I owned about 50 games... but I never played the others more than a single beating.
There are other games that probably could make the list, that I never played (or only played a few min worth
on an emulator).

Started by psakhis - Last post by Rion

UDONGEIN X 256x224@60hz

9   Driving & Racing Cabinets / Re: Sega Model 2 UIon Today at 03:25:28 am

Started by Nuexzz - Last post by tangodownNZ

Cool thank you Nuexzz. Very much appreciated!

Started by zeorangr - Last post by zeorangr

How about this Laythe:

I've been turning this over in my head today, and I think there may be a way to combine the two ideas, and use drawer rails with maybe a piece of 1/4" ply combined with fabric skirting around the screen flex points if needed to get the same effect.  You're absolutely right, this wouldn't be bearing any kind of load.

So here's the idea -

With the way the cab is built, I needed some kind of better structural support for the middle 16 or so inches, since that's where all the drawer rails for the pedestal and screen movement live.  So I built in shelves on the sides, to essentially help brace the main supports by attaching them to to the sides of the cabinet, but also to store lightguns / controllers / guitars for clone hero / extra joysticks and spare parts / etc. 

I think this is one of the better shots to display the shelves:



Anyway, the thought is that I could add a set of drawer rails and panels on the wall of the shelves, or even on the side of the cabinet and attach them to the screen drawer, or even directly to the pedestal so that they slide out when the pedestal and screen do.  And for any cutouts that might be needed to accommodate the screen tilting, I could use a scaled-down black fabric skirt for, so that it would flex with the panel, but still hopefully be neither too obviously visible, nor visually detract from the overall profile.

Something like this, maybe?



If the panel rails are slightly below the main screen rails, that may even let me attach this directly to the pedestal without interfering at all with the screen movement.  I'll have to see if this all actually could fit together in a feasible manner when I get back down there, but even if it requires some tweaking, I think this may work.
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