looking for suggestions for coin/bill acceptors, software

[tjk176]

I'm trying to build a jukebox from a laptop to go in a bar.  So I actually want it to work with a bill acceptor and give credits for the jukebox software.  So far I've found a lot of info for jukebox software that does not require money.  I was hoping to get some suggestions for software that will work with a bill acceptor.  I also need to find a good site that deals with selling touchscreen overlays and bill acceptors.  Any help at all is greatly appreciated

[Ken Layton]

I'm trying to build a jukebox from a laptop to go in a bar.  So I actually want it to work with a bill acceptor and give credits for the jukebox software.  So far I've found a lot of info for jukebox software that does not require money.  I was hoping to get some suggestions for software that will work with a bill acceptor.  I also need to find a good site that deals with selling touchscreen overlays and bill acceptors.  Any help at all is greatly appreciated

WARNING:

STOP RIGHT NOW!

What you are trying to do is illegal (copyright and patent infringement). Touchtunes and Rowe-AMI (now known as AMI Entertainment) hold many patents on the technology and copyrights on the operating software in addition to having licensing agreements in place with all of the major record labels and performing rights organizations (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc.).

Only the major jukebox manufacturers are licensed for commercial use and public performance of copyrighted music in jukeboxes. They paid extremely big bucks for the legal rights to do so.

You can get into BIG TROUBLE if you continue with your plans. I would strongly suggest abandoning this idea.

[unclet]

Basically, you cannot legally make a profit off of music you do not own the rights to...

[Fat-Johnny]

I'm trying to build a jukebox from a laptop to go in a bar.  So I actually want it to work with a bill acceptor and give credits for the jukebox software.  So far I've found a lot of info for jukebox software that does not require money.  I was hoping to get some suggestions for software that will work with a bill acceptor.  I also need to find a good site that deals with selling touchscreen overlays and bill acceptors.  Any help at all is greatly appreciated

WARNING:

STOP RIGHT NOW!

What you are trying to do is illegal (copyright and patent infringement). Touchtunes and Rowe-AMI (now known as AMI Entertainment) hold many patents on the technology and copyrights on the operating software in addition to having licensing agreements in place with all of the major record labels and performing rights organizations (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc.).

Only the major jukebox manufacturers are licensed for commercial use and public performance of copyrighted music in jukeboxes. They paid extremely big bucks for the legal rights to do so.

You can get into BIG TROUBLE if you continue with your plans. I would strongly suggest abandoning this idea.

Umm.......how do you know this idea is illegal where he lives??  Maybe he is in Jamaica, or Zimbabwe, or Mozanbique, where local law allows such a thing.  Heck, i have heard on the Freebox forums of people using Freebox with coin acceptors in pubs in the UK.

There ARE different laws in different countries of the world.  Just because the good old USA frowns upon this, and all of thes companies (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc.) have to line their pockets, that doesnt make it illegal on a global scale.

FJ

[ami-man]

Basically, you cannot legally make a profit off of music you do not own the rights to...

Hi,

If you can not make a profit off of music you do not own, what have all the jukebox operators being doing for last 70 odd years.

If you pay the licences that are in force in your country then you are allowed to make a profit. In the UK fees have to be paid to the PPL and the PRS (Phonographic Performance Limited and Performing Rights Society)

Regards
Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[panama1974]

    Bad that the big companies in the United States as Rowe-Ami have a monopoly on the jukebox, I built in my country if I have a jukebox and a friendship with the owner of a bar gives me the opportunity to place the jukebox in his business, only have to pay copyright and done, these companies gained a lot of money selling jukebox in more than $ 5,000, but now nobody is buying the digital and with a value of $ 8,000, with $ 800 to build a very good jukebox

[Barry Barcrest]

I'm trying to build a jukebox from a laptop to go in a bar.  So I actually want it to work with a bill acceptor and give credits for the jukebox software.  So far I've found a lot of info for jukebox software that does not require money.  I was hoping to get some suggestions for software that will work with a bill acceptor.  I also need to find a good site that deals with selling touchscreen overlays and bill acceptors.  Any help at all is greatly appreciated

WARNING:

STOP RIGHT NOW!

What you are trying to do is illegal (copyright and patent infringement). Touchtunes and Rowe-AMI (now known as AMI Entertainment) hold many patents on the technology and copyrights on the operating software in addition to having licensing agreements in place with all of the major record labels and performing rights organizations (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc.).

Only the major jukebox manufacturers are licensed for commercial use and public performance of copyrighted music in jukeboxes. They paid extremely big bucks for the legal rights to do so.

You can get into BIG TROUBLE if you continue with your plans. I would strongly suggest abandoning this idea.

This really gets my goat. I know you know your stuff Ken but you really shouldn't jump on people when they mention building a coin op jukebox. As Fat-Johnny stated the laws are different across the globe and this STOP RIGHT NOW attitude is a little off putting. Also you fogot to mention NSM and Sound Leisure in your list of the big companies.

Actually Sound Leisure pretty much dominate the market in the UK and BOSE have nothing here. I don't know where this guy is but here in the UK you need to obtain the music from BROADCHART, they will assess the software you are running and check it meets their requirements and you are on the most part good to go, i think you need to sort out an increased payment on you PCL licence, but it's not much for the whole year to run a jukebox. The main requirement for BROACHART is the lock out of the jukebox after a month if the latest update isn't applied.

[panama1974]

   The reality in the United States is protecting big business jukebox manufacturers, if the labels would license their copyrights for a jukebox to any person garage jukebox to build hundreds of affordable prices and these pioneers bankrupt, here in my country nobody buys a jukebox for manufactures, and builds digital jukebox is the logic for saving money.

[Ken Layton]

Here in the USA, the jukebox manufacturers and the performing rights organizations play hardball when it comes to music licensing and patent/copyright infringement. Since Rowe/AMI/Merit now own Rock-ola, this really only gives two major jukebox manufacturers covering the United States (the other is Touchtunes). Sure, Wurlitzer is still around, but their digital downloader jukes are using hardware licensed from Ecast I believe. NSM has never really had any kind of a market here and recently NSM closed their USA office. Personally, NSM jukes never were very good and operators with NSM machines are buying conversion kits from Rowe to convert them into Rowe-Ami downloaders.

Field agents from jukebox manufacturers and from all of the performing rights organizations actively patrol big and little towns looking for unlicensed and/or homemade jukeboxes in commercial locations here in the USA. Don't think that you'll never get caught because they do check those little out-of-the-way locations too. Even CD jukes are checked for current yearly copyright licenses being displayed on the machines.

Rowe/Ami/Merit/Rockola also now have some international patents and copyrights on digital downloading jukeboxes and are starting to enforce them in foreign countries, particularly in Asia right now.

[Barry Barcrest]

Rowe/Ami/Merit/Rockola also now have some international patents and copyrights on digital downloading jukeboxes and are starting to enforce them in foreign countries, particularly in Asia right now.

The only thing i have heard about this is merit and the counterfit megatouch machines, I'm glad things are easier in the UK.

[richms]

The patent situation in the US is a joke in any case.

Has anyone tried fighting those patents at all? I suspect that there would be issues with licensing the music still however.

[Barry Barcrest]

The patent situation in the US is a joke in any case.

Has anyone tried fighting those patents at all? I suspect that there would be issues with licensing the music still however.

I did wonder what special technology they used to download and encode songs that would allow them a patent. I mean it has to be a unique system to do this for it to be granted a patent right? Storing sngs in MP3 format and playing them back, that's been around for a long while.

[Ken Layton]

Their patents pertain to commercial use. Also the hard drives must come from the jukebox manufacturer as they are copy protected and encoded.

[MonMotha]

I suspect it would be possible to build some form of usable jukebox that works around existing patents.  That said, it's likely a minefield and would require a legal department the likes of which you could never afford.

You would of course still have to license any music you wanted to have on the juke.  Without being huge, you won't be able to get any special concessions.  I was told by one that simply paying ASCAP/BMI might work, though you'll never make any money that way.  Consult a legal professional, of course.  Even if you only put public domain music on it or music which you have licensed directly (e.g. from local artists), you'll still get bugged.  The cost of convincing these entities that you're not doing anything wrong is often huge.  See "giant legal department you can't afford" problem from above.

In other words, don't bother trying to build your own jukebox for commercial use.

[Ken Layton]

One other problem with these homemade jukes is their lack of Underwriters Laboratories (UL) approval. In the USA, a commercial jukebox must be UL Approved and be tested by the FCC to meet Part 15 standards for radio/television interference.

[MonMotha]

Both of those statements are not strictly true, though there's plenty of truth to them.

UL approval is not required in all jurisdictions.  It tends to be a city/county level affair.  Many larger cities tend to want it, while smaller areas tend to not care.  Many of those locales also permit CSA or similar approval which tends to be a little cheaper/easier to attain (the standards are often identical).  Some insurance policies will require electrical equipment on a commercial premises be UL or CSA approved, but I've not found it common.  I know many establishments with tons of non-UL recognized equipment.

FCC Part 15 has exemptions for stuff made in extremely low quantity (I think the number is 5 units or less, but don't quote me on it).  FCC Part 15 approval can be obtained for about $800 at a discount lab, if you need it, assuming you don't have any problems.  You'd only have to meet class A for commercial usage, which is pretty lenient.  Most off-the-shelf equipment you'd use to build a homemade jukebox (e.g. the PC, amp, etc.) will likely have been designed to the stricter class B (residential) requirements, so you won't likely have a ton of problems, but anything can happen.

I suspect the patent minefield and music licensure nightmare would be bigger issues, but if you live in a jurisdiction that requires UL acceptance, then you're pretty much screwed as that can be a nightmare to obtain if you've never done it before.

Of course, I still maintain that while it may be possible to do this, it's just plain not worth it.  Stick to putting stuff in your basement.

[mrjuke]

... NSM has never really had any kind of a market here and recently NSM closed their USA office. Personally, NSM jukes never were very good and operators with NSM machines are buying conversion kits from Rowe to convert them into Rowe-Ami downloaders...

Ken,
NSM is alive, well and manufacturing jukeboxes in the USA. (More than I can say for the other guys who are manufacturing in China and Mexico.) Regarding  jukeboxes and conversions, many operators are still running their record selling NSM CD's such as the Silver Sky, Performer Grand series along with the most popular wall jukeboxes of all time. Many who choose to convert their machines are doing so with Ecast powered kits provided by Amusement Technologies. As someone who comes across as all knowing, I thought you'd like to know the facts.
Cheers!

[Ken Layton]

About a year or so ago there were announcements in the trade magazines that NSM had pulled all operations out of the USA and moved everything back to Europe. They had mentioned there would be an email address in the USA for tech support. Roughly about the same time the NSM website had disappeared. Of course now there website is working again.

Here in western Washington state most juke operators here only have a small fraction of NSM jukeboxes still on location. Digital Music Systems is the predominate juke operator here and I see they bought alot of Rockola (Ecast powered) and Rowe downloaders. Plus they bought some downloader conversions for NSM and Rowe CD jukes (View kits in some early Rowe CD100's). Now they are buying Touchtunes jukeboxes.

[mrjuke]

I never saw anything in the trades indicating NSM was pulling out of the states. I'd sure like to see those articles. Do you have any links?

[Ken Layton]

No I didn't save any links. Didn't think of it at the time.

[abispac]

WOW im amazed at what a guy with 3 posts can start here...... the old !!!!dont use illegal music or  roms for profit debate...!!!!

[Barry Barcrest]

Since this thred started i pickup a sound leisure jukebox and that stores the videos as just normal MPG's and the drive is not encypted in anyway. This jukebox is ex-site and is perfectly legal here in the UK. I think things are far more strict in the U.S. regarding such things than they are here.

[Ken Layton]

They are really strict here in the USA in regards to music licenses. The ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC performing rights organizations all play hardball here and will haul anyone into court over the slightest things. Seems like everyone and their brother wants a slice of that music license pie.

[ami-man]

Hi,

Here in the UK as Barry says it is more lax with regards to Licenced sites, however the PPL and PRS have gone after the easier target of slapping licences on every location they can such as village halls, church halls, offices and all places of work where music is played that could be heard by a member of the public.

Over the last couple of years locations such as garages with a workshop and a radio playing have been getting licence bills of between £600 to a £1000 for a yearly licence because a customer could hear the music.
An engineering company I do work for had been assessed at £12000 needless to say all employees had a memo to remove any device to play music off of site.

Regards
Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

[Barry Barcrest]

To be honest i do prefer the PRS/PPL approach to what they have going on in the U.S.