Vector... VGA?

[ChadTower]

http://www.vectorvga.com/

Hrm... I'm a little ambivalent... on the one hand, it has no chance of being pure vector awesomeness... on the other hand, this could save some vector games from being parted out and of course the number of actual vector monitors is rapidly dwindling...

I guess I conclude that this is a very good thing yet not at all for me until I absolutely need it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raPuYH48V8o[/youtube]

[Spyridon]

Kind of like playing Tempest on a mame cab.  Just won't look the same as a true vector.  Where I see this being useful is on a test bench to help trouble shoot vector PCB's.  I know a Star Wars version would help me determine if my current problem is PCB or monitor based.

[ChadTower]

That's not like Tempest on a MAME cab... that's playing Tempest on a Tempest board in a Tempest cab with a drop in replacement monitor.  The only thing different is that it's raster.  Think about how many games have been parted because the monitor died that had they been raster would have just gotten a new monitor.

The other key is that it's a VGA monitor... so you can just buy the converter board and mounting kit to use your own 19" VGA monitor.  Those are a dime a dozen and will be for quite some time.

[RayB]

The image seems stretched a bit?


Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you could conceivably get BETTER than an original standard res vector monitor with what he's doing.

OK stop calling me crazy.. calm down and listen... I've seen color vector games on standard res monitors (in other words, not the medium res Amplifone) and I could still see some jaggyness to the lines due to the shadow mask. So in theory, if his converter board can generate a high resolution AND add in on the fly anti-aliasing, you would get a sharper line than with the original standard res monitor.

Anyone who thinks I'm a fool, go find an Xbox 360, a copy of Geometry Wars Evolved 2, and hook it up to an HDTV at 1080i or 1080p resolution. (Or for that matter, I assume MAME with very high resolution and vector antialiasing turned on would be the same). It's is absolutely beautiful and you can't see any pixels what-so-ever. In Geometry wars they added a glow to everything too, to simulate that natural glow you get on a vector monitor.

UH OH, does that guys converter add glow? Hmmmm......

[ChadTower]

I don't see anything in those displays, though, that look like it's anti-aliased or super high res.  It does look like MAME from the demo video.  I'd love to see one in person to know for sure.

[FrizzleFried]

I have a cocktail MAME with a SVGA monitor and it looks identical to that video.  It looks good,  but is still not vector.  The brightness isn't there...

[ChadTower]

I have a cocktail MAME with a SVGA monitor and it looks identical to that video.  It looks good,  but is still not vector.  The brightness isn't there...

Can you take that monitor and drop it into a real Tempest?  The point here is that this isn't saving vector monitors.  It is saving vector cabinets, game boards, control panels...

[FrizzleFried]

I have a cocktail MAME with a SVGA monitor and it looks identical to that video.  It looks good,  but is still not vector.  The brightness isn't there...

Can you take that monitor and drop it into a real Tempest?  The point here is that this isn't saving vector monitors.  It is saving vector cabinets, game boards, control panels...

But Chad... a WG6100 can be had for almost the same cost as the device.   If the device was sub-$100,  I could see the benefit.   $249 is just WAY too steep.  Working WG6100's go for $300-$350.  I'd take a working WG6100 for $350 over a device to hook up a SVGA monitor at $249... and $499 to include the monitor?  Really?  $250 for a freakin 19" SVGA monitor?

[ChadTower]

But Chad... a WG6100 can be had for about the same cost as the device.   

...for how long? 

Vector monitors are 25+ years old and dying fast.  19" VGA CRTs can be had free all day long and there are millions out there.
You can buy the converter only and use your own free 19" monitor.  That's half the price of the full setup and is still preserving the original game sans monitor.  Sooner or later something like this is going to be the only option.

[Ginsu Victim]

Frizz, what's not to understand?

So many times people kill a perfect good vector game just because the monitor dies. THIS SAVES THEM.

And Chad has it right....you can buy the convertor and use any ol' free monitor you like.

[ChadTower]

...plus no one is arguing in favor of that price.  It's high.  So is the Zektor, though, but we're all glad it exists.

[Ginsu Victim]

There might be some competition in the future to drive the price down....or at least.....let's hope.

[2600]

So is the Zektor, though, but we're all glad it exists.

Not any more.

[Level42]

The only thing different is that it's raster.

ONLY ?

[ChadTower]

The only thing different is that it's raster.

ONLY ?

Yes, only.  That's a Tempest cab, with Tempest controls, and a Tempest boardset.  Plug and play.  Isn't that better than the Tempest hitting a bonfire?


EDIT:  GAH the Zektor was discontinued!  Crap.  I was going to pick one up this year.  Waited too long.

[Level42]

No, because this will make people lazy and throw away perfectly repairable vector monitors and install this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- !

[FrizzleFried]

I am not arguing whether it's good or bad to give this device on the market.  More solutions is always better.  That said,  it's a FAR CRY from a true vector and frankly,  I doubt many people are going to bother saving a vector game by dropping an over priced RASTER solution in it.  Sub-$100 and it's worth it.  $249?  Not gunna happen.    Who in their right mind would spend $250 + a SVGA monitor (even if it was free) to save a vector with a raster monitor... not many.  Anyone willing to cough up $250.00 for a monitor is going to NOT take the lazy way out and get a REAL vector monitor... which there are plenty of,  if you take a little time to look for them and/or are willing to actually spend a little time fixing one.

Tempest on a raster = OK

Tempest on a vector = Awesome

There is a difference and I,  for one,  won't be coughing up the dough to get the inferior version.

[CheffoJeffo]

How times have changed ...

They look GREAT on a PC monitor, and passable at best on an arcade monitor.

You must have your priorities in order when you make your decision.  If you go with a PC monitor,  YES,  vector games will look better.   You will also have an easier time setting things up.   But you WILL NOT GET AN AUTHENTIC LOOK with 95% of the games out there (any standard res game will not look authentic...even with the scan line trickery that MAME can produce).   Yes,  as indicated above,  Vector games will look substantially better...Medium and Hi-Res games will look much better (no interlacing),  but since the vast majority of MAME ROM's are standard res,  this is something to think about.

I disagree that Vector games look "passable at best" on an arcade monitor.   I play Tempest nonstop on my arcade monitor and it looks pretty damn spiffy....though NOT as smooth as a standard PC monitor would display of course...but my Donkey Kong looks 100% authentic!

 

[lowlifefalcon]

i emailed the guy about it. and this is the response i got. they are 150.00 now.
here is the email.....

Yes, the board is available, it just hasn't gotten a very official launch yet!  Since the converter idea was conceived, we have decided to change the way it is being offered.  It is now sold as a stand-alone converter board (without an accompanying monitor) for $150.  This allows you to select and use any monitor you like, and you're probably comfortable with handling a monitor and an adapter board anyway.

How do you plan to use it, i.e., which game do you have and what kind of monitor will you use?

[SavannahLion]

EDIT:  GAH the Zektor was discontinued!  Crap.  I was going to pick one up this year.  Waited too long.

As much as it makes me cry, it's not much of a loss. I liked the Zektor as well, but let's face it. Vectors aren't exactly falling off of trucks around here and I can't fathom much of a direct replacement source. CRT's across the board are receiving the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- end of the deal. I don't know about you, but I have zero interest in playing Tempest on a 5" oscilloscope, not that they come with vectors anymore. And I certainly don't have the means or space to build a "big screen" vector screen using a laser. How fast are those CRT repair guys dying off? How many of them can do a full rebuild on a CRT? Furthermore, wasn't there someone who was rebuilding rasters into vectors? What happened to him? So what are the options for a true vector?

I don't always agree with ChadTower, but his point is driven home. So is FrizzleFried. If you don't like this interim solution, then find a ready source of vectors that isn't going to drain the kids college funds.

[FrizzleFried]

How times have changed ...

They look GREAT on a PC monitor, and passable at best on an arcade monitor.

You must have your priorities in order when you make your decision.  If you go with a PC monitor,  YES,  vector games will look better.   You will also have an easier time setting things up.   But you WILL NOT GET AN AUTHENTIC LOOK with 95% of the games out there (any standard res game will not look authentic...even with the scan line trickery that MAME can produce).   Yes,  as indicated above,  Vector games will look substantially better...Medium and Hi-Res games will look much better (no interlacing),  but since the vast majority of MAME ROM's are standard res,  this is something to think about.

I disagree that Vector games look "passable at best" on an arcade monitor.   I play Tempest nonstop on my arcade monitor and it looks pretty damn spiffy....though NOT as smooth as a standard PC monitor would display of course...but my Donkey Kong looks 100% authentic!

 

I was stoned... and had no idea WTF I was talking about.  ...and BUSH made me do it!

PS: Do you have that good of a memory or did you go searching for that post from 2+ years ago?

[CheffoJeffo]

I had to search to get the quote, but I did remember the thread and found it in my first search.

As for the VectorVGA -- it's kinda nifty, but will never match a true vector. The $150 price is closer to the ball park, but still an expensive solution compared to a true vector.

Is VectorVGA a good thing (save more vector cabinets, free up vector monitors for folks like Frizz and me) ?

Is VectorVGA a bad thing (not as crisp and bright as a vector, more people will just junk the vector monitors) ?

I dunno.

As for repairing CRTs -- that's gonna be the price of entry into collecting, if it isn't already (didn't everybody else spend last night troubleshooting a CRT monitor ?). And I find vectors easier to work on (diagnose/repair) than rasters.

[Level42]

And I find vectors easier to work on (diagnose/repair) than rasters.

Very true. The first arcade monitor I fixed was the Amplifone. The electronics are much simpler than raster monitors.
Just a HV generating circuit (which is amazingly simple really) and some amps for the deflection and some amps for the colors.

Piece of cake

[ChadTower]

No, because this will make people lazy and throw away perfectly repairable vector monitors and install this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- !

Repairable vector monitors = $$ and will continue to rise in value.  People don't throw things away they think they can get big $$ for.  Note that Star Wars partout thread as a perfect example.  If a person thinks they can get $200 for a nonworking monitor they'll hang on to it until they find a buyer.  In the meantime they can get this converter board and just drop in a replacement monitor so the rest of the game doesn't end up a badly done MAME cabinet like that one did. 

We're all on the same page that that Star Wars would still be complete if the monitor worked, yes?  Perhaps THIS guy would have MAMEd it anyway but others might not. 

$100 price drop right away?  Kinda gives you an idea of market on this thing.  I doubt it stays at $150 either.

BTW, Cheffo, $150 is less than the cost of a working color vector and in the area of a working b+w but only for the moment.  Vector monitors are going up and will continue to do so.

[CheffoJeffo]

BTW, Cheffo, $150 is less than the cost of a working color vector and in the area of a working b+w but only for the moment.  Vector monitors are going up and will continue to do so.

Yes, but add on a size-matched new VGA monitor and you're over $300 for an inferior solution, which makes it expensive in my book.

[ChadTower]

Yes, but add on a size-matched new VGA monitor and you're over $300 for an inferior solution, which makes it expensive in my book.

19" VGA CRTs can be had free with little effort.  They're all over Craigslist for $25 or lower.  Hell people are begging folks to take them on Freecycle and no one wants them.

[FrizzleFried]

No, because this will make people lazy and throw away perfectly repairable vector monitors and install this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- !

Repairable vector monitors = $$ and will continue to rise in value.  People don't throw things away they think they can get big $$ for.  Note that Star Wars partout thread as a perfect example.  If a person thinks they can get $200 for a nonworking monitor they'll hang on to it until they find a buyer.  In the meantime they can get this converter board and just drop in a replacement monitor so the rest of the game doesn't end up a badly done MAME cabinet like that one did. 

We're all on the same page that that Star Wars would still be complete if the monitor worked, yes?  Perhaps THIS guy would have MAMEd it anyway but others might not. 

$100 price drop right away?  Kinda gives you an idea of market on this thing.  I doubt it stays at $150 either.

BTW, Cheffo, $150 is less than the cost of a working color vector and in the area of a working b+w but only for the moment.  Vector monitors are going up and will continue to do so.

When's the last time you tried to buy a vector monitor Chad?  They are going DOWN in price,  just like just about EVERYTHING in the arcade collecting community.  The economy is in the tank and that is plainly evident by the prices of parts going DOWN because they aren't selling.

...and the bottom line is that raster < vector so no matter how low these prices go,  it's still a pretty weak option to go with unless you're too lazy to rebuild a vector monitor.   $150 is certainly more attractive... but I,  for one,  would NEVER stick a raster monitor in a vector game... I'd simply hold off on the game until I bought or rebuilt a vector monitor.

[FrizzleFried]

Yes, but add on a size-matched new VGA monitor and you're over $300 for an inferior solution, which makes it expensive in my book.

19" VGA CRTs can be had free with little effort.  They're all over Craigslist for $25 or lower.  Hell people are begging folks to take them on Freecycle and no one wants them.

BTW: You need a 21" PC CRT to match the size of a 19" arcade monitor.

...but they're pretty widely available as well.

[CheffoJeffo]

Yes, but add on a size-matched new VGA monitor and you're over $300 for an inferior solution, which makes it expensive in my book.

19" VGA CRTs can be had free with little effort.  They're all over Craigslist for $25 or lower.  Hell people are begging folks to take them on Freecycle and no one wants them.

BTW: You need a 21" PC CRT to match the size of a 19" arcade monitor.

...but they're pretty widely available as well.

Is it going to be the right size ?

Honest question -- I know that it is closer, but I was talking about a true drop-in solution -- no altering bezels or having to rejig mounting brackets.

I haven't bought a PC CRT in a long time (contrary to what genesim thinks, I really adore good LCD monitors ... for my computers), but last I did, they weren't bright enough to make this a worthwhile solution.  My new arcade monitors, OTOH, can generate nice bright images that might make it a reasonable solution.

[FrizzleFried]

A 21" PC CRT will fit in a 19" arcade monitor frame with a little tweaking.  it's about 3/8" larger or so from my recollection...

[ChadTower]

When's the last time you tried to buy a vector monitor Chad?  They are going DOWN in price,  just like just about EVERYTHING in the arcade collecting community.  The economy is in the tank and that is plainly evident by the prices of parts going DOWN because they aren't selling.

Can you see past your nose?  I mean, it's there right now, so that must mean it will always be that way, right?  This economy is temporary.  Stock up now if that's your attitude because the long view is CRTs being a dwindling resource, vectors far more than rasters, and every year the remaining stock is dying off.  Rasters will be around for a long time because of sheer volume but there is no available volume of vector monitors.  10 years ago an Amp was fairly easy to find.  Now people are hoarding pieces of them.  Tried to find a decent b/w raster lately?  Same thing going on.

...and the bottom line is that raster < vector so no matter how low these prices go

That's because you only care about what you can get your own hands on.  You don't seem to give a crap about the general state of the hobby and preservation as a whole.  That's fine, your bag, but don't push back against those of us taking the long view.

[Mauzy]

Not to jump in the middle, but this device has most DEFINITELY made me throw my hat in the ring for looking for a vector (come on Asteroids!). Before I found this, I wouldn't take the risk on buying a vector that I didn't see running. I know the monitors can be repaired, but with this as a "safety net", I wouldn't mind taking a chance if a cab comes along.


The reason I say this is the chances of finding a working or at least all original vector in my price range are nill at best. The only way I could get my hands on, say, a Star Wars or Asteroids was if it had been converted. If its converted, more than likely the original vector monitor would have been replaced with a more standard raster. Right there I would be out a couple hundred bucks for an unknown, non-working WG, not to mention the price and rarity of an up-for-sale working Amplifone. Add all this to the price of the general restoration (board repairs/replacement, CPO, wiring, etc), and I'm priced right out of the vector market. Knowing that there is a $150 safety net for a monitor readily available makes the whole process easier to manage.

[Level42]

What I find disturbing it the way they try to market it. They make you believe it's a converter that will show you real vector graphics on a VGA monitor.

F.I.: "...uses a high quality SVGA arcade monitor and the vectorVGA Tempest convert board to faithfully render analog vectors."

Actually, this simply is a lie as it doesn't render analog vectors at all !

It only mimics them.

I'm not trying to bash this product, but please tell the truth.

[RayB]

Sorry Level42, I support your general sentiment, but you're playing semantics (or actually, you're wrong about your point). A "vector" image for our purposes is a line drawn between two points. Their device draws those lines to a buffer, then flips the resulting screen drawn (as a bitmap) to the graphics card to display.  Look up the definition of "render", (which is what they say). Not a lie or misleading unless you choose to interpret it differently.

[FrizzleFried]

You don't seem to give a crap about the general state of the hobby and preservation as a whole.

Even you don't believe that ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Are you trying to be a --cream-filled twinkie-- on purpose or is it just happening naturally?  Sheesh...

[ChadTower]

You don't seem to give a crap about the general state of the hobby and preservation as a whole.

Even you don't believe that ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Are you trying to be a --cream-filled twinkie-- on purpose or is it just happening naturally?  Sheesh...

Every response you make translates clearly to "but I can get X now and it's better".  Go back and read your posts.  There is no ambiguity to them.  You can call me names but all it does is call attention to the fact that you've run out of points.  The only two you had were "real vectors are better" and "the price is high" - neither of which has been disputed by anyone.  The whole concept here seems to have flown so far over your head you'd need a telescope to find it.

[CheffoJeffo]

The only two you had were "real vectors are better" and "the price is high" - neither of which has been disputed by anyone.  The whole concept here seems to have flown so far over your head you'd need a telescope to find it.

You have to admit that both of those are really good points.

While I am still ambivalent about Vector VGA, I would ask you -- if you had, say, a Gravitar, Major Havoc or (as I know you do) a Star Wars in need of repair, would *you* drop in a VectorVGA or would you try to repair the vector monitor?

And, yes, I recognize that your choice need not invalidate the usefulness of the VectorVGA.

[ClubNinja]

Tried to find a decent b/w raster lately? 

No freakin' kidding.

This (Vector VGA) is quite an accomplishment.  If the games supported increase, then this would make owning vector games much more attractive to someone who doesn't want to store away vector monitors as a just-in-case for the future.  Because they really won't be available sooner than later.

[Xiaou2]

 Im not sure I get this.

 If the vector monitor is dead...   A person could install a mame solution,
which could offer multiple games instead of one.

 Sure, it will cost a little more, and will take a bit more work...


 As far as looks go... Color vectors are not that bad in comparison to Black and White
vector monitors.  As BW monitors really make use of the superior brightness.
For example, with asteriods deluxe.. the players bullets are 10x as bright as the
rest of the objects.  No other monitor can display that correctly. (without some
backlight alteration and programatical changes)

[FrizzleFried]

You don't seem to give a crap about the general state of the hobby and preservation as a whole.

Even you don't believe that ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Are you trying to be a --cream-filled twinkie-- on purpose or is it just happening naturally?  Sheesh...

Every response you make translates clearly to "but I can get X now and it's better".  Go back and read your posts.  There is no ambiguity to them.  You can call me names but all it does is call attention to the fact that you've run out of points.  The only two you had were "real vectors are better" and "the price is high" - neither of which has been disputed by anyone.  The whole concept here seems to have flown so far over your head you'd need a telescope to find it.

You sure seem to be taking things personal for some reason.  My opinion is my opinion... nothing more,  nothing less.  I've merely stated that PERSONALLY I'd rather rebuild a true vector monitor... what's wrong with that?   I'm sorry I'm not as impressed with this gadget as you'd like me to be.  I do see where it could be of use... especially in light of the lower cost... but it's still not a vector... that's all I'm saying.  I dunnoy why your panties are in such a twist over that opinion... sheesh.

[Level42]

To Xiaou2: the difference between using a vectorVGA and MAMEing a cab is you'd still be running the original game board, which will (whichever way you look at it) be slightly different.

However, with a MAME set-up you'd have the possibility of optimizing the display so that it looks more like a real vector. I think there's a special MAME version (or special emulator) for vectors. I've tried a version for Asteroids once. It looked incredibly much better than MAME, but of course it could still not be the real vector glory like you describe with the really intense brighness of the bullets, which is freaking great looking.

To RayB:
There are four words there: "faithfully renders analog vectors". Three of the words are NOT happening on that VGA screen. It's not faithful, it's not analog vectors. OK, I give you the definition of rendering but the whole point I tried to make was that they try to make you think it's as good as a real vector which is of course not the case.

[ChadTower]

While I am still ambivalent about Vector VGA, I would ask you -- if you had, say, a Gravitar, Major Havoc or (as I know you do) a Star Wars in need of repair, would *you* drop in a VectorVGA or would you try to repair the vector monitor?

And, yes, I recognize that your choice need not invalidate the usefulness of the VectorVGA.

I would repair the vector monitor... today.  What would I do in 5 years if a vector monitor is 3x today's price?  Can't say for sure, honestly.  You and I and Frizz aren't the target market for this, though.  We can fix monitors.  How many good monitor people are really out there?  My experience tells me there are less of them than people seem to think.  A lot of people talk about fixing monitors but those same people always seem to be posting WTB for a "good local monitor" or a "working chassis".

I'm not really that concerned about the cabs we get.  We'll restore them and spend twice market value in the process.  Not everyone is like that.  If you think vector games are getting parted out unnecessarily now wait until a 19" WG is worth $700.

[Ed_McCarron]

Dumb question, as I haven't researched...

Are the tubes different between vector and raster monitors, or is it just the electronics?

[ChadTower]

Dumb question, as I haven't researched...

Are the tubes different between vector and raster monitors, or is it just the electronics?

Most of the vectors ran on a tube with a slightly different deflection angle.  If you can find a tube with a compatible neck from a raster than odds are deflection will be off 10-20% depending on the raster tube.  It will work but you'll get some pincushion that will affect some games more than others.  Yeah, a tube swap with a pin compatible raster tube can be done, but it's a much more involved process than basic repair and doesn't present a 100% compatible swap.

[Level42]

Dumb question, as I haven't researched...

Are the tubes different between vector and raster monitors, or is it just the electronics?

What Chad forgot to say it that the yoke is the key difference between raster and vector. They are wound in a special way, totally incompatible with regular "raster" yokes.

With patience, it is possible to wind one yourself. There have been people who tried and kind of succeeded, but I lost the links and nothing really definite came from it. But I'm glad I got a spare yoke

[ChadTower]

True, I did leave that as part of the "tube swap", without considering that people used to doing that on rasters may not be aware you have to swap the yoke from the bad tube where on a raster you usually don't.

[Ummon]

Dumb question, as I haven't researched...

Are the tubes different between vector and raster monitors, or is it just the electronics?

I think I asked this, and related points, a while back and Ken had a definitive answer.

[Level42]

What do you mean ? Chad answered it. The basic answer is no, there is no difference.

There may be differences in angle of tubes, but that is also true for raster monitors/TV's. The angle of tubes increased as technology advanced.

The fact that Atari chose a medium res tube for the Amplifone vector also doesn't mean that this is a "special" tube. It can just as well be used in a med-res raster set-up.

So, the CRT (the tube itself) is not different, the yoke on the tube is completely different though.

[isucamper]

EDIT:  GAH the Zektor was discontinued!  Crap.  I was going to pick one up this year.  Waited too long.

It says it's discontinued on the details page for the product, but you can still add it to your shopping cart for $199.  I've emailed them to see if the product is being discontinued.  I will be sad if this option disappears before I can procure a vector monitor.

[ChadTower]

I have searched around the site quite a bit and see no way to add it to my shopping cart.

[isucamper]

I have searched around the site quite a bit and see no way to add it to my shopping cart.

[ChadTower]

This is what I see in Firefox and IE, both before and after clearing caches on both browsers.



EDIT:  wait... that's a different URL than the links bring you to... I haven't seen any links into that particular page anywhere on the website.

[isucamper]

This is what I see in Firefox and IE, both before and after clearing caches on both browsers.



EDIT:  wait... that's a different URL than the links bring you to... I haven't seen any links into that particular page anywhere on the website.

crap.  i had that url cached in IE.  your right, you can't get to it from their page now.  i bet it is actually discontinued.  haven't heard back from them yet.  my vector dreams are melting...

[ChadTower]

I eventually pulled the source and found a link into that path... with the emails they have been sending out, I bet that's how their orders are coming in right now.

[Ummon]

What do you mean ? Chad answered it. The basic answer is no, there is no difference.

There may be differences in angle of tubes, but that is also true for raster monitors/TV's. The angle of tubes increased as technology advanced.

The fact that Atari chose a medium res tube for the Amplifone vector also doesn't mean that this is a "special" tube. It can just as well be used in a med-res raster set-up.

So, the CRT (the tube itself) is not different, the yoke on the tube is completely different though.

I meant that, especially as I was asking about the luminosity, there was some additional info in Ken's response. I don't really recall what it was, nor can think of an easy way to find the post.