joust power supply no longer working...?

[fixedpigs]

so i look up at my joust cabinet which has been running fine for five or six hours today and see that the monitor is no longer on...

the coin door lights and p1/p2 buttons are lit...

i walk over and shut the game off...then turn it back on...

there is no normal 'turn on buzz' and the monitor flickers white very quickly and goes back to nothing...

i do this once more before deciding to give it a rest...

after about five minutes...i try again...same deal except the monitor doesn't flicker at all...it's just blank...

being that this is my first cabinet...i have no idea where to start...

it's been working great for the two weeks that i've owned it so far...

who knows...maybe the monitor is fine and it's something else not sending it a signal or something...

what should i be looking for...?

thanks in advance...

[whammoed]

Does it play blind?  (when you coin up, etc do you hear the game play sounds?)

[RetroACTIVE]

Like Whammoed stated... if you can play it blind... then it could be 1 of two things... (not withstanding connector issues of course)

1. Bad RGB/SYNC drive circuitry on the CPU board
2. Monitor failure

It would be nice if you had a known good monitor to eliminate the CPU PCB as a problem

Most likely (if original components) ... you have an Electrohome G07 monitor... they are very easy to repair... Bob Roberts sells rebuild kits for them.

If you can't play it blind then it could be anything within the game psu/logic board/system... let me know if you can't play it blind... or if you rule out the monitor.

[fixedpigs]

Does it play blind?  (when you coin up, etc do you hear the game play sounds?)

i would assume it doesn't since the normal start up buzz sound isn't present...i'll try it out today though and let you both know what i find out...

thanks...!

[RetroACTIVE]

Oh yeah... Check your fuses on your power supply... make sure your boards are getting proper power... may not be the monitor after all.

[fixedpigs]

alright...so it definitely does not play blind...so that should absolutely rule out the monitor right...?

i took a peek inside and there are two red leds on the pcb on the right side of the cab that are lit up...

the led number readout on the rear mounted pcb that normally says '0'(or '8'...i can't remember) is not lit...

i wasn't able to get a good look at the fuses...does each pcb have its own set of fuses...?

thanks again for the help...!

[D_Zoot]

On the power supply board (lowest board in the cab) there should be three LED's lit.  If there is only 2 part of your power supply is dead.

I'm betting the +5vdc has gone out on you.   

It is very common for these power supplies to burn up connectors.  I'd look at the connections first and check the header pins for cold/cracked solder joints.


Good luck!

D

[RetroACTIVE]

Check all your power supply lines.... if your board system is original... it uses 4116 ram... which uses funky -5 and -12 voltages... common for -12 to pop on these old supplies.

[fixedpigs]

since i plan on having this game for a while...would it be wise to look into getting this or this...?

[RetroACTIVE]

since i plan on having this game for a while...would it be wise to look into getting this or this...?

I believe quanlee purchased the second one you reference and it worked out for him... but unfortunately he had other issues... the nice thing about that one is that it also has 4164 RAM upgrade...

see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=77497.0

[RetroACTIVE]

If it were me I would probably get mine through Bob Roberts... as long as the existing wiring harness is solid... since his connects into the original harness and does not piggyback on top of whats already there... I think its a bit cleaner... plus the power supply does not have a fan...

[fixedpigs]

so i pulled out the cabinet and looked inside...

led '1' was the led that was unlit...

so i looked at the fuses...f5 was burned out...!

there was an envelope inside of the coin bucket that contained extra fuses...what luck...!

so i replaced the f5 fuse with an exact match...

the startup buzz sound was kind of there & the monitor did the flicker white thing again...although now the coin door lights & p1/p2 lights did not light up...

and now led '1' & led '3' are not lit up on the one pcb...

i looked at the wire connections and everything looked ok...

the replacement f5 fuse is still intact at this point...along with all fuses...

would it be appropriate to guess that something went out on the power supply that caused the fuse to blow...and now whatever is out on the power supply is dead for good...so it can't blow the fuse again...?

i'm baffled as to why led '3' isn't on now as well...since all fuses are good...

i most certainly appreciate the help...!

 

[RetroACTIVE]

so i pulled out the cabinet and looked inside...

led '1' was the led that was unlit...

so i looked at the fuses...f5 was burned out...!

there was an envelope inside of the coin bucket that contained extra fuses...what luck...!

so i replaced the f5 fuse with an exact match...

the startup buzz sound was kind of there & the monitor did the flicker white thing again...although now the coin door lights & p1/p2 lights did not light up...

and now led '1' & led '3' are not lit up on the one pcb...

i looked at the wire connections and everything looked ok...

the replacement f5 fuse is still intact at this point...along with all fuses...

would it be appropriate to guess that something went out on the power supply that caused the fuse to blow...and now whatever is out on the power supply is dead for good...so it can't blow the fuse again...?

i'm baffled as to why led '3' isn't on now as well...since all fuses are good...

i most certainly appreciate the help...!

 

well... you could have very well lost the 5v voltage regulator... caused an overload which blew the fuse... and now is not functioning...

You should use the multi-meter to check all your supply voltages regardless...

Check the input to IC2 (723 voltage regulator) p12... should be rectified 24VDC and the output p3 (5.1VDC... which is obviously not there)

I suspect its either the 723 or the 2N6057 (high current transistor located on the heat sink)... bob sells re-build kits for these supplies... 9 times out of 10... they fix everything.

[RetroACTIVE]

oh... one more thing... if you have a short on your +5v rail.. which theoretically could have popped your voltage regulator... it may still be there... I would suggest you measure impedance from +5 to ground before you fix / correct your power supply issues...

I'm not certain what the correct impedance is... I can get that number for you... so you can tell if you are in the ball park.  I can tell you it shouldn't be zero ohms for sure... 

[fixedpigs]

oh... one more thing... if you have a short on your +5v rail.. which theoretically could have popped your voltage regulator... it may still be there... I would suggest you measure impedance from +5 to ground before you fix / correct your power supply issues...

I'm not certain what the correct impedance is... I can get that number for you... so you can tell if you are in the ball park.  I can tell you it shouldn't be zero ohms for sure... 

that would be great...

i need to get ahold of a multimeter...

i did find out that led '1' is for +5vdc and led '3' is for -5vdc...so the only led that is lit is for +12vdc...

 

[Lutus]

By the way.

Measure that impedance that RetroACTIVE is talking about with the machine OFF.

 

[RetroACTIVE]

By the way.

Measure that impedance that RetroACTIVE is talking about with the machine OFF.

 

Sorry for leaving that bit out, thanks Lutus! ... which makes me think a little further here...

You'll want to isolate it as much a possible... Disconnect each connector from each of your pcbs (CPU, sound and ROM including the 40pin ribbon).... then measure between +5 and ground on the CPU and ROM boards separately.  The sound board uses +12 and -12 to generate its own supply... don't worry about it (super duper unlikely that its the culprit).

Last Edit:
Also ... just noticed your previous post about -5....  measure between -5 and ground on the cpu as well...

[Lutus]

Just trying to keep people from learning electronics the hard way!!!   

[fixedpigs]

i'm planning on ordering the following from bob roberts...

> 1    Item DS168 Packet Of 60/40 Solder - $1.00
> 1    BSLYR Pale Yellow Snap Short $1.00
> 1    BSLBR Powder Blue Snap Short $1.00
> 1    Lock set keyed alike 641 (1)1 1/8" & (2) 7/8" - $7.00
> 1    Soldering Starter Kit - $12.50
> 1    Pocket Multitester (Digital) - $8.00
> 1    SafeBack Discharger Kit - $8.00
> 1    10 Lamps 47 Bayonet 6V - $1.50
> 1    18" Fluorescent lamps (tubes) - $3.00
> 1    Wms Fuse Kit - $3.00
> 1    Williams PS conversion kit with 15A PS - $45.00

anything else i should consider for my joust cabinet problems...?

thanks...!
 

[Lutus]

Did I miss something?

How did you determine it was the power supply?

[fixedpigs]

i was thinking of getting the power supply kit as a general upgrade since i've read a lot of things that it's just a good idea...
 

[RetroACTIVE]

i was thinking of getting the power supply kit as a general upgrade since i've read a lot of things that it's just a good idea...
 

If it were me... I would invest in the 4164 RAM conversion + Lithium Ion battery conversion.  4164 runs a lot cooler and is more reliable than the factory 4116 RAMs.

Do check your boards for resistive faults before you connect power back up to it cause you may end up in the same boat again. 

[fixedpigs]

If it were me... I would invest in the 4164 RAM conversion + Lithium Ion battery conversion.  4164 runs a lot cooler and is more reliable than the factory 4116 RAMs.

it actually has the lithium ion conversion already...i had thought about the ram conversion...i think i'll do that too...is it just these two things...?
Wms 4116 to 4164 Ram Power Adaptor    $8.50
4164 Ram (Alt Mfrs 3764 - 4264 - 4864 - 8264 - 9064)    $1.00

i'd need twenty-four of the ram chips right...?

Do check your boards for resistive faults before you connect power back up to it cause you may end up in the same boat again. 

definitely...hence the multimeter on order too...

[RetroACTIVE]

..is it just these two things...?
Wms 4116 to 4164 Ram Power Adaptor    $8.50
4164 Ram (Alt Mfrs 3764 - 4264 - 4864 - 8264 - 9064)    $1.00

i'd need twenty-four of the ram chips right...?

You got it...

[fixedpigs]

or should i just try to rebuild the original power supply using this...?
Wms Def/Star/Bub/Rob/Jou OEM PS REPAIR Kit    $10.00

can't use the new ram with the original power supply though right...?

[RetroACTIVE]

or should i just try to rebuild the original power supply using this...?
Wms Def/Star/Bub/Rob/Jou OEM PS REPAIR Kit    $10.00

can't use the new ram with the original power supply though right...?

You could do the rebuild (if you indeed have a psu problem)... the only thing is the rebuild kit is missing the big honkin' 20V 18000 uF cap the psu uses as its primary filter cap... which is a pretty important part of the whole package.  Bob sells replacements (they are snap in, not axial...) so you have to be creative about mounting it.  Personally I prefer original equipment whenever practical, however putting in a switcher is quick... so depending upon your time/patience with soldering... its up to you.

New RAMs work fine with old and new power supply... they actually use less power and don't rely on -5 and -12.

[fixedpigs]

ok...

so i got my stuff from bob roberts today...sadly...no moonpies...

i got my multimeter and am excited to use it properly...what exactly should i be checking out...?

also...i should have it set to ohms to measure the resistance right...?
but what range should i have it set to...?

here are some photos of the power supply stuff...

[fixedpigs]

some more photos...

also...i powered it up today and the led 3 is lit up again...but the coin door lights and p1/p2 buttons aren't lit up like they were before when led 2 & 3 were on...what do you guys suppose that means...?

thanks again for the help on this...i really want to get joust going again...!

 

[fixedpigs]

the last three...of the main board and such...

please feel free to circle what i should be checking out with my multimeter in the photos...that would help me out a lot...!

thanks again...!
 

[RetroACTIVE]

Unplug all your boards... measure resistance between ground and each pin that is supplied voltage by the power supply.

See if you have low resistive shorts... record the readings... I will check them against a known good to see if you have a fault.

Edit: Circled the power connectors and added pin out diagrams

BTW... what did you end up getting from Bob?

[fixedpigs]

alright...so for the first set...i got the following...

-5vdc = 1600 on the 2000k setting...
+12(ur) = i could never find a reading...
+5vdc = 225
+12vdc = 600 or 700

and on the second set...
+5 = 400 on the 2000 setting...

and here's a list of everything i ended up getting from bob...

> 1    Cable Clamp Pan head screws ½" (100) Black $2.50
> 1    Cable Clamp Assortment Bag of 25 Each Size (100 Total) - $7.00
> 1    Wms 4116 to 4164 Ram Power Adaptor - $8.50
> 24  4164 Ram - $24.00
> 1    Item DS168 Packet Of 60/40 Solder - $1.00
> 1    BSLYR Pale Yellow Snap Short $1.00
> 1    BSLBR Powder Blue Snap Short $1.00
> 1    Lock set keyed alike 641 (1)1 1/8" & (2) 7/8" - $7.00
> 1    Soldering Starter Kit - $12.50
> 1    Pocket Multitester (Digital) - $8.00
> 1    SafeBack Discharger Kit - $8.00
> 1    10 Lamps 47 Bayonet 6V - $1.50
> 1    18" Fluorescent lamps (tubes) - $3.00
> 1    Wms Fuse Kit - $3.00
> 1    Williams PS conversion kit with 15A PS - $45.00

 

[RetroACTIVE]

alright...so for the first set...i got the following...

-5vdc = 1600 on the 2000k setting...
+12(ur) = i could never find a reading...
+5vdc = 225
+12vdc = 600 or 700

and on the second set...
+5 = 400 on the 2000 setting...

Those look ok... not too far off from what I have...

Hook everything back up then measure voltage with power on directly on the connector(s)... set your multimeter for DC volts... I'm guessing its not auto-ranging so set your meter to the proper range to be able to see between 0 and say 25 volts... (not sure what your settings are on your meter)

Record your values...
 

[fixedpigs]

this is the multimeter i'm using...
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/meterdigit.jpg

after i power on the cabinet...where exactly do i put the probes to get a reading...?

do i just kind of jam them into the harness...or...?

[RetroACTIVE]

this is the multimeter i'm using...
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/meterdigit.jpg
after i power on the cabinet...where exactly do i put the probes to get a reading...?

Set your meter DCV to 20V and take readings at the connectors of each of the CPU and ROM boards.

do i just kind of jam them into the harness...or...?

Yes take advantage of the fact that some metal is exposed on those IDC connectors. Careful not to "jam" too hard.. you should be able to get to the metal contact fairly easily.

[fixedpigs]

-5vdc = 1600 on the 2000k setting...
+12(ur) = i could never find a reading...
+5vdc = 225
+12vdc = 600 or 700

and on the second set...
+5 = 400 on the 2000 setting...

here are the voltage readings...

-5vdc = -4.84
+12(ur) = 12.78
+5vdc = .39
+12vdc = 12.18

and on the second set...
+5 = .39

so...that +5 certainly looks suspect eh...?

i went ahead and took voltage readings from the other connections on the (power supply?)board with the three diagnostic leds too...

the top-most run of pins go(from left to right)...
-4.84
12.18
-14.3
12.3
12.3
.39
.39
.39
.39

then the bottom left set of pins(from left to right)...
35(200 scale)
12.81
12.21
12.35
.39
.39

and thirdly...the bottom right set of pins coming from the transformer(from left to right)...
no reading...
no reading...
-4.91
-4.91
12.28
12.2
no reading...
no reading...

and lastly...the transformer itself...from left to right...
12
12
no reading...
no reading...
no reading...
no reading...

so now what...?

thanks again...!
 

[fixedpigs]

oh...and one more thing...

when i wiggled the harness connecting the transformer and the power supply...the coin door and p1/p2 button lights lit up...more wiggling made the led 3 go off...but the coin door lights stayed lit...more wiggling made led 3 come back on...and then everything seemed like it had a more solid connection...

 

[RetroACTIVE]

Yeah... +5 is dead... and those readings from the connector of the transformer... those are AC voltages so your reading is going to be bogus w/meter set to DC.

Also those 15 pin molex connectors on the power supply board are known to go bad...(as mentioned earlier the burn up over time)

I'd go ahead and install your switcher.... see if the board comes back...

 

[fixedpigs]

I'd go ahead and install your switcher.... see if the board comes back...

i'll do that tomorrow...wish me luck...!

and i didn't think about the dc...heh...

thank you once again for your help with this...i'm learning stuff i never would have known about otherwise...!

 

[fixedpigs]

victory...!

i put the new power supply in and hit the switch...success...!

it's so nice to play joust again...

so here's my next question...

is it fairly simple and straightforward to upgrade the ram with the new ones...?

do they just pull out with bare fingers...?

once that is done...the new power supply harness just goes inline between the old one and the pcb right...?

thanks again for all of the help...

[RetroACTIVE]

victory...!

i put the new power supply in and hit the switch...success...!

it's so nice to play joust again...

so here's my next question...

is it fairly simple and straightforward to upgrade the ram with the new ones...?

do they just pull out with bare fingers...?

once that is done...the new power supply harness just goes inline between the old one and the pcb right...?

thanks again for all of the help...

Removing RAM chips are simple... becareful with bare hands... many a newbie end up with a chip stuck in their thumb  OUCH! after this manuever.   I would use a small flat head screwdriver... wedge it underneath the chip and twist untl it comes up... working your way to the other end of the chip until its free...

I believe the adapter that Bob sells goes between the power supply connector of the CPU board and the CPU board connector.

Glad things are working for you! 

EDIT: Note about ESD

Oh... along the "bare hands" line make sure you discharge yourself (touch earth ground ... somewhere) before you touch your board components.... its better if you have a ground strap or some ESD protection... but discharging yourself is sufficient... as long as you arent running around with wool socks on a carpet 

[Lutus]

When you remove chips using a flathead screwdriver, try to take the chip directly up and out of the board.  In otherwords don't let the chip rotate one way or the other.  You will slip the screwdriver under one side of the chip (without legs) and twist the screwdriver slightly.  This will lift one side of the chip.  Don't do it too much.  Now move your screwdriver to the other side of the chip without legs.  Repeat this procedure.  Keep doing this, moving back and forth until the chip comes straight out and away from the socket.

NOW.

When placing the new chip into the socket, double check that the number "1" pin is in the correct orientation.  Otherwise you could burn up the new chip.  Make sure that the legs are going in correctly and not getting bent up under the chip.

Once you do one or two, it's a piece of cake.