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Poll

Does The Forum Think: That hardware 3D Acceleration being incorporated into MAME, would be a good idea.

Yes!! Bring it on!! I Want Mame to play those damned slow 3D Games Properly!
No, I think it's a bad idea, Mame is not about playing games, it's purely about archiving them.
I use other emulators when I want to run the games that won't run in MAME (eg Nebula)
Who Cares!!
  

Author Topic: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame  (Read 30249 times)

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brandon

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2008, 08:01:05 pm »
so in this case a plugin system would be great right?  OpenGL plugin, DirectX plugin, software rendering plugin...  Wouldnt that cover all the multiple platforms?  and BTW, arent most of the none PC/Mac ports of Mame used really old builds anyway?  I know that Mame4All on PSP is based on Mame 0.53 and I think most of the console ports of Mame are older versions as well.

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2008, 10:55:18 am »
so in this case a plugin system would be great right?  OpenGL plugin, DirectX plugin, software rendering plugin...  Wouldnt that cover all the multiple platforms?  and BTW, arent most of the none PC/Mac ports of Mame used really old builds anyway?  I know that Mame4All on PSP is based on Mame 0.53 and I think most of the console ports of Mame are older versions as well.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy.  A plugin architecture adds a layer of programming complexity to the whole system, while taking away some of the programming flexibility.  If a small change is made to Mame that effects the graphics interface, then all the previously written plugins will likely be broken.  If the graphics system in Mame were stable, then this wouldn't be such a problem, but Mame's graphics system is anything but stable, and likely never will be, because there are always going to be new tweaks that need changing to accommodate newer and more unusual games.

Another huge problem with a plugin architecture is that the plugins are system-dependent.  In Windows, the developers would need to create .dll files for plugins, and Linux developers would be creating .so libraries, and I don't even know how one would create plugins for a Dreamcast, PS3, or a digital camera (all of which are platforms that Mame has been ported to).  In other words, I'm pretty sure that a plug-in architecture would damage the portability of Mame to other systems.

That is not to say that your idea isn't possible.  I guess I have to look at it that the Mame Developers have taken it upon themselves to take on the most difficult and important parts of emulation, which include reverse engineering the hardware, and documenting it in every nitty gritty detail and making it publicly available.  From there, if you would like to implement your own arcade emulator or Mame derivative, then you have that same "documentation" to work from.  I am completely grateful that the developers stick to the goals that they have, because if they were to focus on short-term goals like tweaking games to run faster on current computer hardware, then that would leave them less time to work on the important stuff, which is the long term goal of documenting the hardware so that 10 years from now or 100 years from now, there will always be a way to play the games, or at least a set of documentation that will make it easy to create something that will play the games.


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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2008, 12:33:27 pm »
If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2008, 12:39:02 pm »

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind,

Thats a LONG time before I can play MK4 ;)

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2008, 12:47:14 pm »
If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

Heh.  I'm still looking for a plugin based emulator that isn't wrought with bugs and compatibility issues and is able to set up without having a doctorate in computer science.  I downloaded NullDC the other day and while it is a mighty fine emulator, the fact that everything is plugin based has made running games on it almost pointless.  How the heck are you going to be able to fix bugs when they happen on one plugin but not another, and not on everybody's computer at the same time?  Plus, having to use different plugins for different games is just a complete pain, especially if you are building a cabinet.  The common flaw I see in EVERY SINGLE PLUGIN BASED EMULATOR are graphics issues relating to the fact that the plugins aren't compatible with every video card or videocard driver out there.  All the graphical garbage can be blamed on the video plugins, but trying to de-bug them is nearly impossible.

If it worked well, then fine.  A plugin based emulator might work.  In reality, it doesn't work very well and leads to a near impossible attempt to fix any bugs.
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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2008, 01:40:36 pm »

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind,

Thats a LONG time before I can play MK4 ;)

Actually you can play MK4 with a fast processor.

Also, force feedback is possible with mame if you use mamehooker.  The only problem is that the outputs on most of the games are not hooked up yet.

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2008, 02:56:19 pm »
hmm.. well, I use the Dreamcast emu for MK4.. I was maining saying that because he said Mame was 1015 years behind.. I typo no doubt but I thought it was funny :)

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2008, 03:19:56 pm »
Ok, I was done with this thread a long time ago, but I'll bite it...

The whole point I made about a plug in based emulator is that it would allow for a double path... accurate emulation using a software rendering plug in and playability *today* with a mapping plug in.

A software rendering plug in wouldn't be different of anything that is in MAME today. It would be an accurate (although slow as hell) emulation of the original hardware's GPU, totally powered by the host's CPU. No dependence on hardware 3D, not tied to any API or architecture.

People like you, that see no point in running games on a perfectly fine emulator just because it uses mapping plug ins could install the software rendering plug in and help the developers create an absolutely perfect emulation that everyone of us will be able to enjoy sometime around 2015.

All the while, people that are not quite so anal about the level of alpha blending of the explosions on Ikaruga or Under Defeat not being absolutely correct can go on using these games for what they were created, to be played, not to be examined under a microscope to find pixel level imperfections.

If memory serves me correctly, that's exactly what's happening to PJ64 now. I think I remember reading that, now that computers are more powerful, they are concentrating on creating a software renderer that will run more games, more accurately. But of course, people have been enjoying Mario64 and his friends on their computers for years now.

AGAIN, my comments are about emulators in general. I'm not talking about MAME. I'm not complaining about MAME. I'm not suggesting anything to the MAMEDevs.



If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

Heh.  I'm still looking for a plugin based emulator that isn't wrought with bugs and compatibility issues and is able to set up without having a doctorate in computer science.  I downloaded NullDC the other day and while it is a mighty fine emulator, the fact that everything is plugin based has made running games on it almost pointless.  How the heck are you going to be able to fix bugs when they happen on one plugin but not another, and not on everybody's computer at the same time?  Plus, having to use different plugins for different games is just a complete pain, especially if you are building a cabinet.  The common flaw I see in EVERY SINGLE PLUGIN BASED EMULATOR are graphics issues relating to the fact that the plugins aren't compatible with every video card or videocard driver out there.  All the graphical garbage can be blamed on the video plugins, but trying to de-bug them is nearly impossible.

If it worked well, then fine.  A plugin based emulator might work.  In reality, it doesn't work very well and leads to a near impossible attempt to fix any bugs.

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2008, 03:28:21 pm »
If the general populace wasn't so completely stupid, then it wouldn't be a problem doing this.  (And I'm not stating that everybody here is stupid.  If you hang around emulation forums long enough, you know the type of people I'm referring to.   ;D).  To have MAME also support plugins would require at LEAST twice as much work for the MAMEDevs, or anybody else working on MAME.  In addition, bug reports would have to be separated into "Plugin based MAME Bugs" and "Standard MAME Bugs".  The "kiddies" who are out there to play games only will flood their inboxes with demands and questions because they can't get their plugin version to work without a bunch of bugs.


For those of us who want a bug-free experience with MAME, the inclusion of the plugin system will severely hurt that.  If somebody wants to go and make a derivative of MAME that supports plugins and buggy emulation, then they can go right ahead and do that.  I just don't want to see the standard version of MAME support that and all the problems it will cause.



Ok, I was done with this thread a long time ago, but I'll bite it...

The whole point I made about a plug in based emulator is that it would allow for a double path... accurate emulation using a software rendering plug in and playability *today* with a mapping plug in.

A software rendering plug in wouldn't be different of anything that is in MAME today. It would be an accurate (although slow as hell) emulation of the original hardware's GPU, totally powered by the host's CPU. No dependence on hardware 3D, not tied to any API or architecture.

People like you, that see no point in running games on a perfectly fine emulator just because it uses mapping plug ins could install the software rendering plug in and help the developers create an absolutely perfect emulation that everyone of us will be able to enjoy sometime around 2015.

All the while, people that are not quite so anal about the level of alpha blending of the explosions on Ikaruga or Under Defeat not being absolutely correct can go on using these games for what they were created, to be played, not to be examined under a microscope to find pixel level imperfections.

If memory serves me correctly, that's exactly what's happening to PJ64 now. I think I remember reading that, now that computers are more powerful, they are concentrating on creating a software renderer that will run more games, more accurately. But of course, people have been enjoying Mario64 and his friends on their computers for years now.

AGAIN, my comments are about emulators in general. I'm not talking about MAME. I'm not complaining about MAME. I'm not suggesting anything to the MAMEDevs.



If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

Heh.  I'm still looking for a plugin based emulator that isn't wrought with bugs and compatibility issues and is able to set up without having a doctorate in computer science.  I downloaded NullDC the other day and while it is a mighty fine emulator, the fact that everything is plugin based has made running games on it almost pointless.  How the heck are you going to be able to fix bugs when they happen on one plugin but not another, and not on everybody's computer at the same time?  Plus, having to use different plugins for different games is just a complete pain, especially if you are building a cabinet.  The common flaw I see in EVERY SINGLE PLUGIN BASED EMULATOR are graphics issues relating to the fact that the plugins aren't compatible with every video card or videocard driver out there.  All the graphical garbage can be blamed on the video plugins, but trying to de-bug them is nearly impossible.

If it worked well, then fine.  A plugin based emulator might work.  In reality, it doesn't work very well and leads to a near impossible attempt to fix any bugs.
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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2008, 09:09:46 pm »
Yes, I ment to say '10-15 years', but I acknowledge that some newer games are working while some older games arn't.  Personally, I'm a light gun fan and I've collected as many console ports of such games as I could have but there are still plenty of games that didn't and won't have console ports.  (And ---gosh-darn---, the Playstation 1 Area 51 port is PICKY about light guns.  GRRRRRR.)

As I see it however, building yourself some monsterious dual quad core machine for MAME will still be a LOT cheaper than buying the boards or even complete cabs for just a handful of arcade games.

And I have to admit, that I like the arcade versions of some games better, as they allow you to throw in additional players on the fly and if the games are left unattended the quickly go to attract mode and I such fond memories of being that kid without quarters and watching the arcade games in attract mode. :)

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2008, 04:32:04 am »
DJ:

Is there ANYWHERE on the internet that I dont run into you? Holy crap! Anyways, welcome to BYOAC.


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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2008, 06:04:56 am »
Ok, I am going to begin by saying that I don't buy the "MAME as documentation" line. It is a complete retcon for one thing, and the only thing even supporting that statement is the statement itself. Trying to get hardware emulated right doesn't support that statement, it simply means they are trying to get emulation correct. There are however hundreds of reasons why mame ISN'T just about documentation and ISN'T totally legit. Need I mention hardcoded support for bootleg games, which is impossible to legally develop the way Mame is developed. Ok, enough of that, I got into with haze or one of the other devs a few years back, and don't really want to argue it again, I am simply setting you up for the position I am arguing.

There are plenty of reasons why MAME should completely remove and forget about 3D games altogether.

Prior to 3D games you could always find the best 2D games in the arcade, and thus 2D arcade games were generally superior to 2D console games from the same era. That is why we want to play the 2D games.

However, by the time 3D arcade games became widespread they were already lagging behind other 3D gaming options. Sure there are a few exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Now lets examine what we are even looking at here.

The majority of the 3-D games use specialty controls that almost no one is going to have (often analog driving controls). Is it really worthwhile to spend a lot of time on emulating difficult to emulate games that few people can properly play.

Many of the rest of the 3-D games are sports titles. Sports titles are fine and good, but you know and I know that they don't age well. Non-gimmick sports titles have a 1-2 year shelf life and then they might as well vanish, as the newer title is simulating the same game, but probably doing it better. If you are emulating sports games on your computer you would almost certainly get a better gaming experience by going down to Best Buy and picking up whatever PC game is out there for the sport of choice, heck buy last years title from the $5 bin, it will still be a far better gaming experience than that 7 year old version of the same darn thing you are trying to emulate.

For that matter 3D driving games while having a long active life in the arcade also tend to have a terribly short shelf life in general, works the same way as the sports games, the new game so closely simulates the same thing that it is superior simply by default of having better graphics, leaving only novelty driving games behind, and some of those are novelty enough to have real traction (Crazy Taxi), while most others are simply superceded by another driving game with glowing powerups and better graphics.

Is an arcade game running on PC hardware even an arcade game? What makes it one? Is "documenting" x86 hardware even necessary, or relevant.

What is left after the smoke clears and you look past all the specialty control games and sports games? Not a lot, not a lot, not a lot at all.

Stuff about not emulating games still making money for manufacturers is also not relevant, the industry of producing arcade games curled up and died 2 years ago, in case you weren't looking and didn't notice. Really, go to a distributor and see what is still available, and of those products that are still available how many are actually new. Checking the upright category on Brady Distributing's website there are a total of 10 NEW upright games available today (Ultracades, Namco reunion and other multirelease machines not counted in that total). What IS still available averages two years old, and that number is heavily propped up by games that are simply annual software updates like Golden Tee and the like that constantly have a NEW version of the same exact game. Oh, by the way, Brady is selling brand new 27" Ultracade units for $2375 now. Honestly (despite all Ultracade issues) that is better than most people would do building their own. Dynamo doesn't even make arcade game cabinets anymore.

Mame is darn good at 2D though, which is basically done. Actually, given that little nugget of info I think it would be better if the mamedevs did simply cease development altogether, at least then I could accurately give advice on 2D emulation setups without having to worry about the fact that last months mame version changed the way everything worked again, even though 2D has basically been perfect since .55 and now just gets slower with every release.
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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2008, 10:46:28 am »
The majority of the 3-D games use specialty controls that almost no one is going to have (often analog driving controls). Is it really worthwhile to spend a lot of time on emulating difficult to emulate games that few people can properly play.

Yes I think so. So OutRun shouldn't be emulated? Many many many very old arcade games used analog controls of some kind, but I don't see that is a reason not to properly emulate them.

I know you're talking about 3d games (which I don't much care for either, in terms of MAME), but you can't use an excuse for not emulating a particular game or group of games, while contradicting that excuse by emulating other games.


In answer to the original question, I don't care either way whether 3d acceleration makes it into Mame.

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2008, 01:02:58 pm »
Actually, given that little nugget of info I think it would be better if the mamedevs did simply cease development altogether,

Remember Paige that this is a hobby to the mamedevs.  Why should they cease development or answer to anyone on why or how they implement anything?  Who cares if they state the purpose of MAME as being documentation in order to avoid legal hassles?  The bottom line is that they work on MAME because they enjoy it, regardless of whether or not the x86 architecture needs documenting or not.

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2008, 02:41:45 pm »
Paige, I agree with a lot that you said, but I'd like to point modern shmups as a category that doesn't fit in your theory.

Most of them are 3-D based, even the ones that don't seem 3-D. They use the modern 3-D GPUs at the heart of Naomi and the likes to apply effects (2-D is just a special case of 3-D).

They use common controls.

Most of them don't have PC versions.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 06:45:02 pm by hbm*rais »

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2008, 05:23:06 pm »
With arcades slowly dieing out it means MAME can basicly 'catch up'.  It is clear that the console is winning, arcade IPs that were once ported to console are now finding themselves produced for console only even.  This could mean however that in 10 years MAME could have most arcade games even from the 90's and 21st century emulated and running.

Personally however I'd be upset if MAME development stopped, Area 51 Site 4 hasn't been completed yet afterall. :)

As for specialized controls, if you loved the game you'll probably go out and get the right controls for that game.  Personally, I'd love to hear Sega's Daytona USA 2 cry out 'Doot, doot, doot, doot, doot doo doo doo, DAYTONA!' in it's attract mode agian as it has no console port.  It's 3D and needs a wheel, but if it gets completed, oh I'll play it, wheel and all. :)

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2008, 09:34:19 pm »
Try not to get too U.S. Centric here.  Arcades are NOT dead in Japan and there are a LOT of games that come out each year in Japan.  So saying that the arcade genre curled up and died is a tad bit wrong.
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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2008, 10:36:11 pm »
Try not to get too U.S. Centric here.  Arcades are NOT dead in Japan and there are a LOT of games that come out each year in Japan.  So saying that the arcade genre curled up and died is a tad bit wrong.

Japan is some sort of techno-future that we all dream about.  As such it throws the curve off.   :P
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http://avrus.blogspot.com/

DJ_Izumi

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Re: Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2008, 10:41:04 pm »
Sadly however, the game centers in Japan have also begun to die off, Sega, Namco-Bandai and others have begun to shut down less profitable locations.  The Arcade's death was postponed in Japan but it's been a growing theme world wide.  Sadly, it seems to be inevitable.  People would rather play games at home.  At the least however, gaming has begun to see more popularity in social games that involve a living room full of friends like party games, rockband/guitar hero, DDR and others at least make it more fun.  Kinda sad when gaming is just someone alone on the couch yelling at people across Xbox live.