Restoring vs. Maming a cabinet - The complete rule book

[csa3d]

All,

Seeing how there's a ton of debate over on my thread, and everyone is fired up with opinions of when Maming is ethical, I've taken the liberty to create a thread so that anyone who feels like campaigning a political debate has the proper thread to do so in.  Seems that even though I've been following this forum for a few years now, that there's still a bunch of unspoken rules that apparently everyone should know and live by.

So to open this debate, I'll start posing the following questions:

1.  Should anyone ever purchase an authentic arcade cabinet if they do not plan to completely restore the machine to it's original, historical beginning?
2.  At what point during a restoration, is it moral to deviate from the restore?
3.  What level of restoration counts as a complete restore, vs. a project modification, vs. a complete and utter disaster?
4.  Is a restore not a restore if the internals of a classic cab are not running on 100% authentic hardware?  Mutli-boards?  Using a non-standard CGA monitor?  Multi-panels?
5.  Is a restore still a restore if side art is reprinted onto vinyl, or does a restorer need to fill vinyl scratches and airbrush in the missing art?  Should artwork even be touched up, or should it feel "antique" in nature?
6.  Coin Door restores, does the restorer need to invest the money and effort into finding someone to completely powder coat and re-chrome, or is it O.K. to take these matters into your own hands?
7.  What cabs are OK to Mame (with skill or without skill)?  Which cabs are "off hands"?

To this point, I feel as though I have been a constructive part of this community, and have offered some opinions and help when I can.  As I get closer and closer to completing my project, I feel like there is more and more hate growing, when I feel nothing wrong with what I began.  Hopefully, a new reader can pounce upon this thread filled with all sorts of veteran experise, and can have the complete guide to read up on before enduring never ending flame wars in their project threads.

Let your true colors show.. and let's as a community, write the complete ethics guide in this thread.  At least these rule would be pubic, out in the open, and easily accessable by new forum members.

[FrizzleFried]

Dedicated cabinets of working (or damn near working) classic era arcade games are not to be destroyed by MAMEing them.  Pretty simple.

Gutted cabinets,  generic cabinets (Dynamo),  or home built cabinets are perfectly fine.   MAME is about preservation not destruction.   To take a working (or almost working) classic era arcade game in a dedicated cabinet and destroy it by MAMEing it is a douchey thing to do and runs counter to what this entire community is about.

Do you need to restore all classic arcade cabinets?  Not necessarily...some find charm in a well-worn dedicated arcade cabinet.

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.   

Anyone who would take a working Galaxian (albeit with a monitor on the fritz) and destroy it by MAMEing it runs counter to the ideals of the vast majority of the folks here and I find it ironic that the same folks who berated the guy from another forum who did so to a Dig Dug (badly) are the same folks on their knees giving you praise for doing the same thing to your Galaxian (but with skill).

 

[DaveMMR]

I'm offering this without delving too deeply in the referenced project thread...

In this day and age, I can't see any necessity to gutting a perfectly fine classic, dedicated cab.  I've seen numerous threads where the builder says "it's my cab", "it's the only one I was able to get", "it's too expensive to restore", "no one else wants it", etc.  While they are all perfectly acceptable rationales, there is this hint that the maimer who utters these words is not trying hard enough (or just making excuses). 

Here's the thing: there are collectors all over the place willing to take a machine in need of a little TLC off your hand, and they're no further than a couple of clicks away.  Likewise, anyone can find a generic, gutted cab for cheap (maybe even free) with a little effort.  The internet makes this all so much simpler (Craigslist, eBay, etc.).  Trust me, someone wants it.

I find it hard to accept that turning a good condition Galaxian, Centipede, Donkey Kong, etc. into a MAME machine is ever a last resort. 

[csa3d]

To take a working (or almost working) classic era arcade game in a dedicated cabinet and destroy it by MAMEing it is a douchey thing to do and runs counter to what this entire community is about.

I guess I didn't read the mission statement on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, that said I was doing something wrong.  I saw a non-working machine (it didn't boot up, hummed like crazy, and had a black screen) and BUILT MY OWN (arcade controls) working version from this, hereby taking something broken and breathing new life into it.  Is every classic hotrod car Chip Foose makes a disaster as well?

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.

This uncertainty and grey area is exactly what this thread is here for.  Please list be more specific so that others know the rules better.

Anyone who would take a working Galaxian (albeit with a monitor on the fritz) and destroy it by MAMEing it runs counter to the ideals of the vast majority of the folks here

Last time I'll bring this up:
1.  It was probably close to being "complete", but did not work, nor never worked upon purchase.  I wouldn't not have mamed it if I saw it was working at time of purchase.  Give me SOME credit.
2.  It had substantial damage to the side art, coin door, water damage, and all sorts of cosmetic holes which I restored.  It was a project cab upon time of purchase.
3.  It did not even have original control panel, and came bearing a "romstar" control panel.  Again, incomplete.
4.  Anyone person who honestly had FULL intension of restoring this cab back to it's original demeanor, would have had to go through the same work I did to patch, paint, and improve the overall appearances.
5.  All original hardware and glasses I'm not using are being sold and parted out to folks who are in the restoration line.
[/quote]

Keep 'em coming.. we'll all get drunk and hug later.
-csa

[FrizzleFried]

I guess I didn't read the mission statement on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, that said I was doing something wrong.  I saw a non-working machine (it didn't boot up, hummed like crazy, and had a black screen) and BUILT MY OWN (arcade controls) working version from this, hereby taking something broken and breathing new life into it.  Is every classic hotrod car Chip Foose makes a disaster as well?

Please do be mindful that we don't destroy what we're trying to re-create.  Many classic arcade machines are rare and worth a heck of a lot more intact than altered.  Ideal candidates for this type of project are machines that have already been abused by previous owners - artwork destroyed, poorly converted, etc...  If you have a classic cabinet in good shape, you can probably sell it to a collector and get a trashed but usable cabinet in the bargain.

That is posted right in the "CABINETS" link from the front page.   Plus being a smart ass isn't going to make any points.

You didn't breath new life in to your Galaxian.  You killed a worthwhile and fully restoreable Galaxian to create a MAME cabinet.  You didn't breath NEW LIFE in to it...you yanked whatever life that it had before out of it and replaced it with something that is much much "less" than what was there before.

[patrickl]

If you want a midway cabinet for your MAME project then simply buy a kit instead of damaging an original:
Midway Upright PC Cabinet - fully assembled arcade cabinet $375.00

[FrizzleFried]

Are there exceptions to the rule?   Surely... but not many.

This uncertainty and grey area is exactly what this thread is here for.  Please list be more specific so that others know the rules better.

Grey areas:  Previous dedicated cabinets that have already been JAMMAtized and/or converted to something completely different than what the original cabinet housed (note - these cab's are STILL prime for restoration,  but MAMEing most of them isn't considered a major sin).  Also,  certain dedicated cabinets are acceptable to MAME if the original hardware isn't operational...Pole Position is a title that comes to mind...they are a ---smurfette--- to get running and there are a shitload of them everywhere to the point that people are sending them to the bonfire.

I am sure there are other other exceptions for sure.  A dedicated Galaxian isn't one of them though.

[leapinlew]

Some more gray area: what defines a classic? One mans Kangaroo is another mans holy grail.

[pcb]

If you want a midway cabinet for your MAME project then simply buy a kit instead of damaging an original:
Midway Upright PC Cabinet - fully assembled arcade cabinet $375.00

Thanks for the plug!  We can do the same with Galaxian/Pac-man style cabs, or Joust style.  We are even considering doing the mini in a PC style with a drawer and computer bay.

 - Mike -

[csa3d]

at $175, a project Galaxian seemed like a better deal then these kits.  I did look into those fyi..
-csa

[Paladin]

Man, when did this board go from a fun place to plan and make arcade cabinets to a crusade to save all original cabs?  I've made a cab from scratch, converted a working classic cocktail, and restored cabinets that had been "hellcade" worthy conversions.  To me this is just a fun hobby, but both here and on the KLOV forums I'm seeing more and more people who think that we're destroying our nations heritage or something.

As far as I'm concerned you can do whatever the heck you want with any cab you buy or build.  The goal should be to make yourself happy, not worry if you're going to upset some arcade purist.  This is just a HOBBY people, based on machines that were designed simply to make a buck and then be resold, converted to play something else and eventually tossed out.  I'm not saying that they don't hold any intrisic value, but lately some people seem to have lost perspective of how "important" these big old toys are.

If you find yourself getting upset at someones plans for a cab, by all means point out the alternatives to them - but then take a step back, take a deep breath and tell yourself that it's only a hobby. 

[RayB]

To answer the main quesiton: There is no "morality". Just the opinions of a bunch of grumpy old men.

[Singapura]

In my opinion it depends how rare a cab is. If there are thousands around or if they are still made, do whatever you like. But if you mame a rare classic you should use the same methods modern restorers use on paintings or buildings. Make everything that is not in line with the original design reversible.  If you want to put in an LCD screen, do it in a way that it can be removed without damage. Same goes with the CP, don't drill holes in it where they don't belong. If you want to repaint, use the original paint etc. etc. It's your cab so you can do whatever you like with it but in my opinion there is a moral obligation to preserve history.

[Fozzy The Bear]

You're not looking for an ethics guide.... You're just looking to deflect what you see as negative attention away from the project thread you started.

As you want it posted here:

The supply of original complete cabs is not inexhaustible. They were made in relatively limited numbers. Most of them are already gone. In a few years there will be NONE of them left.

To destroy and mangle a complete one like you have done and then to come on here to brag about the supposed achievement, remains very sad and depressing. I still weep for the loss of this classic.

And it does bring this forum into disrepute!

I can only agree with DaveMMR and FrizzleFried. It's quite clear that you still don't understand what it is you have done to a historically important item.

1.  It was probably close to being "complete", but did not work, nor never worked upon purchase.  I wouldn't not have mamed it if I saw it was working at time of purchase.  Give me SOME credit.

Utter rubbish! In the first post of your project thread you claimed that when you powered it up there was some hum from the speakers and that it was making game sounds, but the screen was black. You then later claimed that it didn't boot up at all! If it was making game sounds then it was running the game! the only thing that was actually defective was the monitor or cabling.

Now you want credit for this destruction??

To part out and Mame a classic dedicated cabinet, that was clearly functional apart from the monitor and more or less complete is totally unacceptable and has NEVER been acceptable. Nor is it welcomed here.

There IS a moral responsibility to history and our heritage. What is the point of destroying parting out and mangling what we are supposed to be preserving!!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[leapinlew]

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Best Regards? Really Fozzy? 

[protokatie]

Ok, I am not going to be making friends with my response, but here it is:

1. If you want to restore an arcade cab to its origonal (or as close as possible) condition, please do so.

2. If you bought it, you do with it as you see fit. (This could include everything from "MAMEing" it to making it into a fish tank, or even firewood). I know this goes against "ethics" and "morality" here, but lets face it, when it comes down to it, if you buy it, it is yours!

Personally, if I came across a rare cab and had the ability to buy it, I would atleast try to restore it. But you cant knock people who do other "things" with the cabs. They own them, and they have their own idea about what to do with them. If you have an objection, then try to buy the cab off of them before they "mod" it.

[fixedpigs]

'sweet...did you just buy the last dodo...?'
'yup...i'm roasting it up tonight...want to join me for dinner...?'

just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should...

[protokatie]

just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should...

Dont get me wrong, I DO want to see classics preserved! But at the same time, we can't demonize people who choose to do what they want with their cabs. It is a big grey area, and the "ethics" and "morality" are as abstract as they can be.

I just hope people here understand I am rooting for all people involved, and that I realize that there is more to the arcade culture than preserving the past.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Best Regards? Really Fozzy? 

I really must remember to change that sig line......   

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

It is a big grey area, and the "ethics" and "morality" are as abstract as they can be.

It's not at all abstract.... Look at it this way:
Take a genuine 1780's sailing ship and drop a 2000HP Diesel engine in it, cut the masts off, because they're no use any more... Oh and while we're about it lets just fit it with air horns and some go faster stripes down the sides.

You wouldn't do that, nobody would do that...... It's exactly the same thing!! and just as barbaric and disgusting.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

Take a genuine 1780's sailing ship and drop a 2000HP Diesel engine in it, cut the masts off, because they're no use any more... Oh and while we're about it lets just fit it with air horns and some go faster stripes down the sides.

I wasnt saying I agreed with such a thing, but I was saying that you cannot tell someone it is "wrong" to do such a thing. I was merely pointing out that there is no "law" that should exist that tells us what to do.

Say I want to take that late 1700's sailing ship and make it into a house (lived in something similar during my teen years), does that make it wrong?

[Fozzy The Bear]

I wasnt saying I agreed with such a thing, but I was saying that you cannot tell someone it is "wrong" to do such a thing. I was merely pointing out that there is no "law" that should exist that tells us what to do.

And I agree with you completely...... and in fact I said that to him in his other thread:
"While I'll acknowledge that at the end of the day, the cabinet was your property and therefore legally you can do as you wish with it, I will not acknowledge that it is morally right or acceptable in any way to butcher an evidently restorable item like that, to build a Mame cabinet."

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[my58vw]

As many people have said above the supply of cabinets will not be around forever. I own a cabinet from japan (Beatmania). There are maybe 200 - 300 working cabinets in the US, probably many less (I think the number is about 100). No one would think about maming a beatmania cab. Likewise there are other cabs which may be meaningful to someone out there... and for those people they are probably searching for those cabs now. In my world there is a game called beatmania III - VERY RARE, expecially in the US - we know of about 10 - 15 cabs in the US (arcade infinity 30 min. from me has beatmania III the final). Someone destroyed one of them about a year ago - people were up in arms.

If someone was to come up with a working classic cab it is nothing to put it up online and see if there are interest. Some classics are easier to get than others - games such as Ms. Pacman, etc. - and you can recreate them. Take something like an original burgertime, etc and try and recreate it easily.

Point is - it is not hard to make a very quality custom cabinet - or have one made (or buy a kit). I think it is challenging to buy a cab and convert it to mame - you have to undo engineering the factory did. If you can do that build your own - and it will be to your own style!

Of course we can not forget the joy of playing these games - we choose not to forget!

Enjoy your game!

[solderguy1]

I was at the SuperAuctions next to Ca Extreme last August and was shocked about how little interest there was in the arcade games.  A lot of $100 games and some working cabs didn't get a bid at all, especially some 90s fighters that were never popular to begin with.   Even the auctioneer was surprised, it was strange after reading on the net how SA events are always newbies overbidding and getting ripped off.
If I was starting out and knew what I know now about costs, I might have joined the darkside.  Heck, even a sheet of smoked glass set me back $40.  I'm actually paying extra for the joy of doing things myself. 

[SavannahLion]

There IS a moral responsibility to history and our heritage. What is the point of destroying parting out and mangling what we are supposed to be preserving!!

In some small minor defense, parting out seems to often be the only way for other cabs to survive. Parts to my current cab came from parted out cabs elsewhere. However, I admit that I don't know if those parted cabs were fully functional before they became organ donors. Of course, I'm specifically talking about hard to come by parts. Such as XY monitors, Star Wars yokes, etc. etc. I'm not entirely sure a blind cab automatically qualifies it for MAME.

While I don't necessarily agree with what csa3d did to his cab or how he chose to go about it. I don't see csa3d as being the worst enemy to the destruction of classic cabs. Cases in point.

When I went to go pick up my Z's from a retiring arcade operator. I was absolutely shocked by the cabinet graveyard I witnessed. To my dismay I spotted cabs like Pac-Man, Super off Road, Neo Geo and numerous others destroyed and thrown into a goat pen. Marquees, monitors and other salvageables were  either left out in the rain to be destroyed by goats or store in a barn to be covered in an inch of chicken ---Cleveland steamer--- and feathers. I refuse to think about what kind of marquees I might have inadvertently destroyed because I couldn't see them while walking around in there. I would've happily given up the Z's in exchange to save that Pac-Man. (As it was, I only managed to locate the converted Pac-Man board and save it). The operator told me that it never occurred to him to place the cabinets on Craigs, eBay or even FreeCycle. He figured since he had them in storage for years that no one would want them. 

Several months ago I was reading a thread in RGVAC (or was it on the KLOV forums?). This group is supposed to be all about the preservation of arcade cabinets. Instead I read an account of one collector who was so fed up with other collectors that he destroyed perfectly good monitor glass. A Baby Pac-man was smashed with a hammer amongst many other irreplaceable parts. And the worst part isn't because he did what he did. The worst part is that others on that forum applauded his actions. He did it because he was fed up with the arcade community as a whole and the amateur collectors that (as he states) never pick up their parts when promised.

What about the jerk that decided to drop a supposedly nonworking ? Even though it was nonworking, I myself would've liked to have that cabinet. That cabinet would have been an excellent candidate for MAME.

Even better, anyone remember the money grubbing retarded ---fudgesicle--- nut that destroyed a Death Race... from a museum no less?? Nevermind what Havok says, this was a fantaqstic piece of artwork (the cab, not the game) and only the ---smurfing--- door was salvaged and sold.

Then there are ---uvulas--- like and other images like it found at HellCade. What kind of retarded monkey ---uvula--- sets fire to Baby Pac-Man, Tempest, Tron, and Space Invaders cabs? What kind of person takes a ---Cleveland steamer--- inside a Battlezone? Every week I see someone looking for something from at least one of these cabinets.

The real enemies aren't people like csa3d who "preserve" cabinets by their own definition. The real enemies are those people who have so much and callously destroys these bits of history.

csa3d sees what he did as "hot rodding" his cab (we all need to start using the same dictionary here). These other people don't even care enough to do even that.

I was at the SuperAuctions next to Ca Extreme last August and was shocked about how little interest there was in the arcade games.  A lot of $100 games and some working cabs didn't get a bid at all, especially some 90s fighters that were never popular to begin with.   Even the auctioneer was surprised, it was strange after reading on the net how SA events are always newbies overbidding and getting ripped off.

Wish I went I bet it's because California has a softening housing market and there's been a lot of concern about jobs, mortgages, etc. Last year, I saw a lot of stuff go for free or really cheap. Now, people are selling rusty lamps for too much. I've seen the same six cabinets floating around on Craigs with asking prices that are way too high.

[bfauska]

Scarcity in collections (VAPS.org)
Very Common - There are 167 known instances of this game owned by one of our 900 members. Of these, 104 of them are original dedicated machines, 6 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards have been placed in another game cabinet, and 57 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

Of the 40,598 video games (3,114 unique) tracked by the Video Game Preservation Society, this game ranks a 81 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most commonly seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on ownership records.

Wanted - There are 5 VAPS members currently looking for this game

I bet the 104 owned by the members are in severe threat of disappearing for ever. ALL will be lost and we won't have any idea of what that game used to be. OR maybe the 104 owned by members are just a small portion of the existing cabs in the wild and even a modified classic with some obvious changes gives us an insight into what the cabinet was historically. More of these things have been thrown out than butchered. It's a frickin' game, not a priceless one-of-a-kind painting or 300 year old hand made ship. Just the number of Galaxians restored by members of this forum is enough to maintain the historical preservation of this cabinet.

Hot rods make a connection to the past that many people wouldn't feel from a bone-stock classic. A MAMEd cabinet may very well spark interest in some future restorer or collector that the same cabinet with one game they have no particular interest in could never do.

As an example of how parting something out can be good, lets look at a simplified scenario. Say that there are 10 remaining "ClassicCade" cabinets in the world, all with various forms of wear and tear. If not one of those machines gets parted out then there will be no perfect/complete machines. If the one with a good game board gets parted out and the one with the good monitor gets that part and the CP from one of the others then you have one good machine, for people to praise and put in a shrine for all of eternity. SOME cabinets have to give up their functional original parts for ANY restorations to actually happen.

[brandon]

I say Do whatever the hell you want with YOUR cabinet.  Anybody who says you should restore it should have their checkbook ready to finance your restoration project.  but since its your money, time and effort going into it then tell them to stuff it. I DO understand where people are coming from though.. I would hate to see somebody Mame a Dragon's Lair or something rare like that.. but honestly does anybody know how many Ms Pacman/Galaga cabinets where made?  I have four of them myself.. I paid $40 each for them.  I wouldnt Mame them though.  I think they are a one trick pony not really suitable for Maming.  If you can tack on a custom control panel and mount the monitor/PC without drilling a bunch of holes and maiming the thing (pun intended) then have at it.  Its your cabinet and if you decide to sell it somebody else can take the time and effort to track down the original PCB, artwork,etc to restore it back.  I really dont know why everybody gets so bent out of shape about this.  Its quite silly.

[IronBuddha]

It's one thing to have an opinion and tell the person you don't agree with his approach, it's another thing though to act like it's the end of the world and make that member look like a complete jackass just because of it. People wouldn't want to post things here because they think they would get insulted to death. People not posting=less traffic.

Here's my point:

Tomorrow I'm picking up a super pacman cab because I don't have the time, money or tools to build a cab my own. It's completely gutted out but has the side art and marquee. So what's wrong if I converted it to a mame cabinet? I'm not painting over it or destroying the marquee so later if I built another cab all I would do is take everything out and it would just be a gutted cab again for someone else to restore or use it. Is that a violation?

And the thing is, this is going to be my very first project and I would love to share the whole thing and get advise etc. But I don't know if I would want to share what I'm doing because honestly I think people would probably just flame me off these boards. It sucks

[Fozzy The Bear]

Tomorrow I'm picking up a super pacman cab because I don't have the time, money or tools to build a cab my own. It's completely gutted out but has the side art and marquee. So what's wrong if I converted it to a mame cabinet?

Absolutely nothing's wrong with that...... it's a prime candidate for being Mamed.... and neither would you be flamed for it. But he didn't do that. He gutted and destroyed a more or less complete and working (apart from the monitor) 1980's cab. Then he claimed that having done that, he now had the skills to restore or build a cab from scratch.

If he wanted to learn the skills then he could have done that on a generic or already converted cab or an already destroyed or parted out cab. There are enough of those around for that to be done, not to destroy a complete one.

SavannahLion, by your analogies you're saying it's OK to do it because other people are doing it as well...... Great! so it's ok to walk out into the street with a shotgun and blow a few peoples heads off, because somebody else is doing it. It must therefore be OK.... QED.  I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do. Just because arcade operators throw them out destroy them and leave them to rot, doesn't mean it's OK for us to destroy them.

That's exactly why in less years than you think, the heritage we have will be gone, if we don't take a stand and actively discourage this sort of vandalism now.

The mission statement in relation to cabinets of the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum, puts it quite clearly: "Please do be mindful that we don't destroy what we're trying to re-create.  Many classic arcade machines are rare and worth a heck of a lot more intact than altered." Destroying a more or less complete classic just so you can play games at home is NEVER OK.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[CheffoJeffo]

I've actually written a couple of responses to this thread and didn't bother submitting either ... these threads always end up with the "grumpy old men" against the "it's my cab" folks. I'm tired of being labelled as a grumpy old man and particularly having some noob (who always seems to think he is the rational one) call me silly. Further, many of the "it's my cab" folks seems to be people who eventually end up lamenting the lack of classic cabs available.

[NOTE: Before anybody thinks that I am attributing positions to people in THIS thread, my beliefs come from the myriad threads on the same topic ... but feel free to notice the parallels]

This type of thing is always going to happen.

If the cab is complete and close-to-working, then I would certainly prefer restoration.

Depending on how far the cab is from complete (e.g. if it has been converted), then I don't mind a tasteful MAMEing. mmmPeanutButter (a BYOACer who is local to me) saved a busted-up, badly-converted Centipede and made perhaps the most beautiful MAME cab I have ever seen (and it is better-looking in RealLife(tm) than in pictures). In the process, he did not destroy a single Centipede element and, in fact, restored many Centipede elements (including the artwork). His cab looks better than any Centipede I have ever seen in RealLife(tm).

OTOH, we see too many folks doing stupid things like bolting stuff onto classic cabinets. There is a reason that Hellcade and CrapMAME exist -- people do bad things to classic cabs.

One thing that hasn't been mentionned is that, for those who hang around longer than the first MAME build, people's opinions on the topic change. I can think of at least one BYOACer who is staunchly against MAIMing classics. At one point I implored him not to MAME a classic cocktail citing that he had the skills to resto. Now he's got a much nicer collection than I do.

OTOH, my own personal opinions have softened over the same time period -- I've seen too many classic cabs chopped up for firewood, despite being offered for extended periods of time for free. And the guys doing it aren't evil -- they are typically far more serious than people here are about preservation.

OTOH, anybody who destroys a DeathRace deserves to die a hideous and painful death.

EDIT: It's HellCade, you twit ...

[TOK]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

[RetroACTIVE]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

Pretty much in line with my thoughts as well... I don't believe all machines are classics... there was a lot of crap built just for JAMMA conversions and such that don't have the significance as most of the late 70's early 80's machines.

[shardian]

My thoughts on old cabinets:

*If the cabinet is in passable shape, but with bad hardware: Restore, or MAME in a recoverable fashion. I prefer the continued use of the arcade monitor if possible.

*If the cabinet is is bad shape, but with good hardware: By all means, restore or try to pass on to someone who wants it and will restore it. For instance, I personally would not want a restored Galaxian -- the game bores me. I do know two collectors local that would either trade me, or buy it from me to restore themselves. Now if the cabinet is in horrible, horrible shape, then offer up all of the internals to someone who has a decent empty cabinet.  restoring a cabinet with full artwork can be a VERY expensive outing, and odds are quite high that your investment will outweigh any possible returns. If the game doesn't have a sentimental value, don't waste your money on a full restore, but clean it up as good as possible.

My personal philosophy is that the main attraction to old arcade games were the cabinets. I prefer machines to look stock, but don't really care what is on the inside. I also think restored classics with a cleverly built CP can be very pretty. Building a custom CP that can be taken off and replaced with stock is brilliant in my book.


Now as to your personal case of the Galaxian, with your obvious woodworking skills with the CP, you should have definitely just built a Midway from scratch. I think that is the biggest beef people have here.

[javeryh]

My thoughts are first and foremost do what you want because it's yours BUT if I were to come across a classic cab that I basically wanted only for the cabinet I would definitely try and part everything out that is salvageable like the artwork, boards, buttons, joysticks, coin door, etc.  It's kind of like how I feel about abortion - it's definitely not for me and something I don't personally believe in but I would never in a million years want it to be illegal or judge someone for going through with it because it's really none of my business.

At the end of the day, I'm just happy that someone is actually building an arcade machine - MAME or not - because this "hobby" certainly won't be around forever.  The classic arcade scene lasted about 15 years total and is really only nostalgic/meaningful to a very very very small portion of the world and one day we will all be dead and gone and it's not like today's teenager is going to seriously be playing Pac-man in an arcade cabinet in the year 2085. 

[patrickl]

I would say that there is a line between destroying a classic and only mildly damaging the enterior. Isn't it better that an arcade fan saves the cab and stores the parts rather than that the thing ends up as landfill?

[protokatie]

because this "hobby" certainly won't be around forever.

Im sure there must have been a lost episode of StarTrek Voyager in which Tom Paris builds a Ms Pacman cabinet from scratch! So even in the 24th century there will be cab makers!

 

[fixedpigs]

My thoughts are first and foremost do what you want because it's yours BUT if I were to come across a classic cab that I basically wanted only for the cabinet I would definitely try and part everything out that is salvageable like the artwork, boards, buttons, joysticks, coin door, etc.  It's kind of like how I feel about abortion - it's definitely not for me and something I don't personally believe in but I would never in a million years want it to be illegal or judge someone for going through with it because it's really none of my business.

“No matter what I say, it draws controversy. It's sort of like the abortion issue. If you're for it, you're a son of a gun. If you're against it, you're a son of a gun.” - bm...

[brandon]

Here are my guidelines...

1 First off, its yours, so you could do whatever you want with it. My feeling is if you saved it from the dumpster and MAME it, at least its loved. The Asteroids burning in my avatar is real. I didn't burn it, but it was destroyed because it was parted out and needed a monitor. In my opinion, It's better that a classic get MAME'd than that.

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

3 If you do modify a cab that is considered classic, doing so in a way that it could be converted back won't meet with too much resistance... Don't hack 20 inch holes in the sides to install neon MAMECADE logos.

4 A game that has already been messed up by a prior conversion is pretty much fair game. There were thousands of Pac Man's made, and half of them were converted to Rush N Attack or some crappy wresting game. If the art and control panel are hacked already, you're not hurting anything by hacking them again.

+1

[ChadTower]

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

...and Dragon's Lair is usually gutted because the laserdisc player is a total ---smurfette---.

[SavannahLion]

SavannahLion, by your analogies you're saying it's OK to do it because other people are doing it as well...... Great! so it's ok to walk out into the street with a shotgun and blow a few peoples heads off, because somebody else is doing it. It must therefore be OK.... QED.  I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do. Just because arcade operators throw them out destroy them and leave them to rot, doesn't mean it's OK for us to destroy them.

Fozzy, I normally respect your opinion, but today... well.... You're so upset over csa3d's cab that you're not seeing the bigger picture for what it's worth. The point I'm making is that you need to choose your battles. There are a lot worse atrocities than what csa3d did to his cab. It saddens me to see people, operators and so-called collectors alike, burning, shredding and throwing otherwise good classic cabs away while lots of people, like myself, would happily take those cabs off their hands.

Think about what's worse? 50 people each MAMEing a classic cab or the operators who irreparably destroy 50 classic cabs to get their rocks off? Or what about cheesy operators who do irreparably bad conversions to classic cabinets? Or like the one operator I encountered, destroyed cabs realizing too late there are people out there who want them.

You wrote:

I'll take bets that in ten to fifteen years time, you'll be looking back at this and saying, why didn't we do something to save them, when we could do.

You don't think we wouldn't think your statement would never be true? It comes down to being realistic. I like the work that csa3d did, however I don't like the fact he did it to a near working Galaga. Yeah, he did say one thing at first then change it midstream. That might be something to hold against him. What is your proposal that this sort of thing doesn't happen again? You want Saint to send csa3d into exile? You want to start a classic cab trading programme?

Due to the sheer number of cabinets and the general community as a whole, you CAN NOT save every cab out there. It's just not possible. Nearly each and every single one of us, regardless of how you want to slice it, is in this hobby on our own. We are all in competition with each other to locate that white elephant of ours. And even if we could pick up every cab we came across, we would all quickly run into storage problems.

You need to be realistic Fozzy. Flat out shunning csa3d and others like him is only going to force them to lurk here or congregate elsewhere where that sort of thing is happily supported and encouraged. No matter what you, or anybody else, desires, every single one of the members on this forum are going to do their own thing. Coalesce into decent bargaining group that doesn't do boneheaded dumb moves like the museum sending a Death Race to its death and you might have something.

[brandon]

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

...and Dragon's Lair is usually gutted because the laserdisc player is a total ---smurfette---.

right.. and rather than hunt down unreliable and expensive hardware (not to mention the disc) I seen no problem with somebody running Daphne inside of it as long as they're nondestructive and it can be undone.   You could either have a 100% mint machine that plays one game that you keep covered with a sheet and wont let your friends touch it.. or you could have a machine that runs several games that you... still wont let your friends touch

I guess its like classic cars.. do you want something you haul to car shows in an enclosed trailer or do you want something you aren't afraid to drive from coast to coast?  paint chips add character right? Cars (and video games) were meant to be enjoyed. It's the enjoyment that needs to be preserved first and formost.

[ChadTower]

On a true classic, I don't see a problem with using MAME to make it appear original if the original hardware is missing or really dead.  I wouldn't go changing the CP or anything to expand it to additional games, though.  If it was a Galaxian, I would use MAME to make it a Galaxian again, and I may add a couple more simple two way one fire button games without changing the art at all.  Nothing really more than that, though.

[bigh4th]

I think you guys need to step back and re-examine this whole ordeal.

Reguardless of if the galaxian (which is a terrible game, IMHO) boards in his cabinet were working, they were housed inside of an almost 30 year-old plywood box that was beat to hell.

Had he decided to fix (or replace) the monitor, it would still need major cosmetic work to be restored, and even then it wouldn't be like new, unless they used bondo or wood filler at the factory.

He then would have had to find a CP and order a replacement overlay to replace the exsisting replacement.

And after that, the artwork on the cabinet was trashed so bad that it would need to be replaced.

So what it all boils down to is the only things being original are the PCBs hanging off of 30 year old plywood and possibly the wires hooked to them.

So is the nostalgia for the plywood, the cabinets shape, or what?  The only way that cabinet could have been restored is to use original NOS artwork and parts....which even if they do exsist and are usable, are more rare than hens teeth. 

We're not talking about a Tron cabinet, we're talking about a beat to hell Galaxian, which wasn't a popular game to begin with.  It also isn't rare.

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

[ChadTower]

In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price. 

That just means you haven't found your way into the local collectors' circuit yet.  It takes some time.  Once you do generic cabinets really are a phone call or two away at any given time.  I used to say the same things you're saying.

[CheffoJeffo]

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

There are a lot more cabs out there than people think (I can think of a couple of folks posting in this thread who used to lament the troubles with finding cabs and, not that long later, are having to get rid of some to make room ... myself included). It may take a while, but it can be done.

EDIT: Chad got there first ...

And, FWIW, Galaxian is popular among collectors for a numbers of reasons, not the smallest of which is that it was the first RGB game (a rather important event in vid history).

[ChadTower]

I definitely don't see how a game can be both unpopular and common.  Production titles were based on sales which were based on popularity. 

[shardian]

Galaxian was a rally big deal when it came out, but Galaga blew it out of the water not long after. Galaga is the sole reason why I cannot stand to play Galaxian.

[RayB]

Galaxian was a rally big deal when it came out, but Galaga blew it out of the water not long after. Galaga is the sole reason why I cannot stand to play Galaxian.

Same here. It's a milestone in history, but boring.

I used to be of the "save every game" camp, but I'm on the fence these days. I've seen so many free or near-free project cabs pass me by. Can't save em all! So I can't expect anyone else to buy up arcade games they don't want just to save them, if I'm not going to be doing that myself. So I feel I'm in no position to dictate what someone else should do. That would be hypocritical.

But as a general rule, yeah, make mods reversable. Use a 2nd control panel for custom controls and keep the original. Stuff like that.

On the other hand    the more cabs that get destroyed the higher the value of my collection! MOuahahahah!!

[TelcoLou]

Well, here's how I see it:

If a cab has most of its original components (monitor, PCB, power supply, CP), and is in decent physical shape, I would personally go the restore route.

If it's already been gutted, or has many missing, or "beyond economical repair" parts, I guess its morally ok to MAME it.

**note**, this opinion if from a total N00b who is ecstatic  over his recent acquisition of some kind of cabinet whose origin is still a bit of a mystery (came w/o monitor or PCB, ad by the looks of it, was converted at least once)

[stan2323]

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

People seem to forget this.

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

That is what you sound like to me.  “Everyone be dam$$ed just save the games.”  IT IS ONLY A GAME.  There are better things to get wound up about. 

[ahofle]

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

Yeah.  It's well known that original Tron cabinets cause explosive diarrhea and urinary incontinence.  The only known remedy is to remove the black lights and attach a 4 player frankenpanel.

[CheffoJeffo]

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

People seem to forget this.

Actually, people just seem to disagree, because they became dialed in and have no problems finding games.

Harry lives in central VA -- I have friends in Richmond and have on occasion considered having them pick up cabs for me. If *I* can find cabs in that area when I live in a different country, I'm pretty sure that Harry should be able to find some too.

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

That is what you sound like to me.  “Everyone be dam$$ed just save the games.”  IT IS ONLY A GAME.  There are better things to get wound up about. 

Hey, Stan ... IT IS ONLY A THREAD.

 

[brandon]

I definitely don't see how a game can be both unpopular and common.  Production titles were based on sales which were based on popularity. 

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

[brandon]

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

yeah.. like treehuggers that would rather us be at the whim of foreign oil because we cant drill for oil in our own damn country.. BUT thats another topic for another place

As far as the arcade restoration is concerned..  Well, I've restored several games that I didnt even really like just because they were bought as part of the lot.. and when it comes time to sell them you can barely make your money back.   I have a fully restored Ms Pacman cocktail that I'd practically have to give away to sell because they market has been flooded with so many knockoffs... either folks dont know the difference or they'd rather have a 60 in 1 bootleg vs an original PCB that plays one game..  but in many ways I dont blame them.

[Sir Auros]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ****ing flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here. 

This is one of the most newbie-hostile online communities I've ever joined, and the MAME vs. Restore crap is a big part of it. At least, that's how I perceive it.

Edited because the autocensor doesn't pick up the f-word for some reason.

[protokatie]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ---smurfing--- flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here.

I know where to get a '57 chevy that you could put the cab on! Hell, around here would could even get the news crew to start the fire!

Meh, as I have said before, it is good to restore an old cab, but not necissary!

[DaveMMR]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ****ing flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here. 

This is one of the most newbie-hostile online communities I've ever joined, and the MAME vs. Restore crap is a big part of it. At least, that's how I perceive it.

Edited because the autocensor doesn't pick up the f-word for some reason.

It's only hostile to those who skip the manifesto and forum rules.   Sorry you perceive it as such but....  well, are you expecting to win support with your "outrageous" comments?   

[yalborap]

Okay, I look at it this way.

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with?

A worthless, damn, plywood box. As long as you don't break the internals, and you don't destroy the artwork, what you do to that worthless plywood box DOES NOT MATTER. Because no, just because that wood is 20 years old does not mean it's even vaguely valuable. It's still cheap plywood. Now, if someone made a gorgeous, amazing, uber-rare hardwood cab that looks like the finest oak desks mated with a Tron cab to produce the single best thing ever? Yeah, sure, that's valuable.

But again. Cheap, crappy plywood. Does not matter.

Side art, internal components? DO matter. Parts were, to my knowledge, saved or have entered the collections of people who can use them. The rest, does not matter. The only thing we must preserve is that which effects the experience and cannot be recreated.

But that's just me. And I'm a mere 16 year old who wasn't around for the arcade days, so maybe I'm talking out  ---my bottom---.

[Sir Auros]

Re:DaveMMR

It's attitudes like yours that make me think that for all of saint's hard work monitoring the boards, this is one of the most antisocial forums I've used. No, I don't expect support, but I'll damn-well voice my opinion whether or not the more extremist nerds here like it.

[RayB]

Actually this site's pretty cool. Even the debates have some intelligence to them. Visit any other forum related to a really "mainstream" topic (like car modding) and you'll see a rather huge IQ drop in the discussions compared to here.

[brandon]

Re:DaveMMR

It's attitudes like yours that make me think that for all of saint's hard work monitoring the boards, this is one of the most antisocial forums I've used. No, I don't expect support, but I'll damn-well voice my opinion whether or not the more extremist nerds here like it.

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

[solderguy1]

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab. 

[protokatie]

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab.

HEY! No matter what, you should never promote alcohol abuse to children, esp baby seals!

[yalborap]

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab. 

And I'd club an 80s cab if I saw it MAMEing a baby seal. 

Since this place needs a bit of a humor injection and all these days...

[SavannahLion]

Actually, people just seem to disagree, because they became dialed in and have no problems finding games.

Some of us aren't quite so dialed into the local collectors scene. I've received a message once in a while asking where I get my cabs and I consider finding cabs of interest equally as problematic as finding a unicorn's feather. I think the stumbling block for those of us on the low side of the collectors scene is actually finding someone to start building our cabinet "network."

[Singapura]

I would trade all my unicorn feathers for a good cab. I would club a baby unicorn for a good cab!

[Avrus]

I would trade all my unicorn feathers for a good cab. I would club a baby unicorn for a good cab!

You don't have to club it, just cut the horn off. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I think the stumbling block for those of us on the low side of the collectors scene is actually finding someone to start building our cabinet "network."

I would agree with that statement -- I was a complete blank, other than a solitary eBay purchase for a long time. Once I found pseudo-local folks, problem solved. Then I had a new problem ... no space or time.

[CheffoJeffo]

Actually this site's pretty cool. Even the debates have some intelligence to them. Visit any other forum related to a really "mainstream" topic (like car modding) and you'll see a rather huge IQ drop in the discussions compared to here.

And I would add that some of the folks being labelled as anti-social or hostile-to-newbs are among the more helpful members of the community.

[Fozzy The Bear]

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with? A worthless, damn, plywood box.

You know what.... You're absolutely right! It's a worthless damned plywood box.

But it's only a worthless damned plywood box because it's had all of that stripped out of it. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Lets take a faberge egg remove the jewels, remove the gold hardware, sand the translucent enamel off the surface and give it a nice coat of white paint to freshen it up. What have you got now... A nice bright white paste egg, completely worthless and unrestorable but still nice and bright.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

[csa3d]

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with? A worthless, damn, plywood box.

You know what.... You're absolutely right! It's a worthless damned plywood box.

But it's only a worthless damned plywood box because it's had all of that stripped out of it. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Lets take a faberge egg remove the jewels, remove the gold hardware, sand the translucent enamel off the surface and give it a nice coat of white paint to freshen it up. What have you got now... A nice bright white paste egg, completely worthless and unrestorable but still nice and bright.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

Well, then put the jewels back on it, a bit of touch up, and it no longer smells like a rotten egg.
-csa

[shardian]

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

[MadGamer]

This has been a very interesting read and all seem to have one or two good points. So I figured I would throw my two cents in. I'm all for preservation of most things and so are most that's why antiques and museums are so popular. But what determines something to be worth preserving. We have a local museum and a friend and I on a whim decided to stop one day. We paid to get in not very much maybe $2.00. As we entered the first room it was completely filled with bowls. We went back to the curator and said what's with all the bowls. He replied its soup tureen month here at the museum. The whole museum display was soup tureens, big small colorful bowls. I felt so ripped off I mean who really gives a rats *ss about soup bowls not me. So it's something you care about that's worth preserving to you. And the best place to do that is in your memories and that's why we care about these games. We want to relive our childhoods going to the arcade where all it cost was a quarter and you can go far away where there were no cares or worries even if it was only temporary you knew you were always just one quarter away. So you want to preserve something preserve the game rooms we all remember. That what's worth preserving? Not some collector who has the means to restore a machine that they can keep it in there own collection. But for the kid who only has a quarter.

[ChadTower]

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

The Atari version of ET was not commercial equipment costing thousands of dollars per unit.   

[FrizzleFried]

Well,  I am tired of defending the MAME community over at KLOV.  They point to Galaxians being gutted,  Dig Dugs,  being killed,  etc as a reason why MAME is the anti-christ and I try to point out that RESPONSIBLE MAMEers don't kill classic dedicated cabs.   Hard to do that when so many ARE.

I got in to arcade collecting through MAME.  My first cabinet was a beat to hell Robocop that had been converted to a Street Fighter II that had been gutted.  I have a soft spot for MAME and even though I have 11 dedicated arcade cabinets,  I still have 3 MAMEd cabinets among them.   I get defensive when arcade collectors go on a tirade about MAME and how it's killing cabs... but damn,  it's hard to be defensive when (it seems) so many people don't give two shits whether they destroy a classic arcade cabinet or not.

It seems that the arcade collecting community is right...

---fudgesicle--- it...it's your cab...do what you want...doesn't mean I'm not going to call you a --cream-filled twinkie-- for doing so.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,  for some strange reason I highly doubt it's a Humming Bird.

[MaximRecoil]

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

The Atari version of ET was not commercial equipment costing thousands of dollars per unit.   

Plus it is about as coveted as a bootleg Mahjong machine.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I get defensive when arcade collectors go on a tirade about MAME and how it's killing cabs... but damn,  it's hard to be defensive when (it seems) so many people don't give two shits whether they destroy a classic arcade cabinet or not.

It seems that the arcade collecting community is right...

This is what I've been trying to get through to them. That the collecting community literally hates the BYOAC and Mame, for all the destruction that goes on.  So that's both of us that have been treated like shite elsewhere because we try to support and back up and defend this community with collectors, museums and preservation groups.

The Managing Director of a major UK Science and Technology Museum (while they were organising an exhibit on computer games history), was asking me for assistance. Over dinner I mentioned the BYOAC and that some members might be prepared to loan some machines. He turned to me and said: "Oh those are the people who rip game machines apart to make them play other games aren't they?"  It's almost impossible to defend that perception of this community, when we have people doing exactly that and not giving a crap about it.

I too have had it with this nonsense! Do as you please.... So go ahead! Damage the reputation of this community, damage the reputatioin of Mame, rip machines apart all you like. After all you can do whatever you like with the property you own, right?!. Even if that destroys things for everybody else on the planet.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[TelcoLou]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

[stan2323]

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

No I do not it was 10 years ago.  The flood in the area in 2006 destroyed the house along with quite a few others that were along the river.

[ChadTower]

That the collecting community literally hates the BYOAC

Uhm, maybe there, but definitely not here.  People are intelligent enough to discern the difference between what was done with this Galaxian and building your own cabinet from scratch or MAMEing a Dynamo that has been converted 4 times already.  The ones that can't are only going by "what I heard from someone who heard someone said that" or aren't really involved in this hobby.

Truth be told, I probably fall deeper into the "collecting community" than I do BYOAC.  I have built zero cabs and have never MAMEd anything.  I do restorations.

[MaximRecoil]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious here, but the classic arcade machines have already been built, by someone else, many years ago.

If you are going to take the initialism of this site to heart, then if you want a cabinet, you should be Building Your Own.

[yalborap]

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with? A worthless, damn, plywood box.

You know what.... You're absolutely right! It's a worthless damned plywood box.

But it's only a worthless damned plywood box because it's had all of that stripped out of it. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Lets take a faberge egg remove the jewels, remove the gold hardware, sand the translucent enamel off the surface and give it a nice coat of white paint to freshen it up. What have you got now... A nice bright white paste egg, completely worthless and unrestorable but still nice and bright.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

Well, then put the jewels back on it, a bit of touch up, and it no longer smells like a rotten egg.
-csa

THAT is what I'm saying.

Did he mess up the side art? Did he destroy the control panel art in the process of drilling new holes? Did he snap the marquee over his knee and chuck it out the window? Did he stab a soldering iron through the PCB?

Because if he didn't...Well, I have a hard time getting annoyed. I'm not part of any restoration community, but we should be preserving THAT stuff. The boards, the monitorrs, the artwork, the stuff that makes a game unique.(If we're talking about a game that adds unique hardware, include that in the list as well.) Not the cheap plywood box that stuff rode in on.

To use your egg example, what's valuable on that? The jewels, the gold hardware, the translucent enamel. Not the egg that stuff rode in on.

Now, should we try and preserve it all together when we can? Sure we should! But we're going to have to gut cabs to make cabs work again anyways, so let's worry about THAT, not some cheap plywood, eh? I mean, am I wrong here?

[TelcoLou]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious here, but the classic arcade machines have already been built, by someone else, many years ago.

If you are going to take the initialism of this site to heart, then if you want a cabinet, you should be Building Your Own.

Understood  It just pains me a bit, being so new to this "scene", to see angry posts arguing about morality and all ... (games ... they're just games)

[RetroACTIVE]

Understood  It just pains me a bit, being so new to this "scene", to see angry posts arguing about morality and all ... (games ... they're just games)

Yes they are just games but for many is akin to antique collectibles... unlike furniture and stuff, antique electronics are a bit more challenging for many to deal with... people can be impatient / apprehensive with maintaining these things... so unfortunately an easier path is to slap a pc in it and call it done.

[MadGamer]

[/quote]
Understood  It just pains me a bit, being so new to this "scene", to see angry posts arguing about morality and all ... (games ... they're just games)
[/quote]

"..just a motorcycle, Mr. C??...and I supposed your mother, was just another mother??.." ...
                                                                                                                (Arthur fonzarelli)

Sorry couldn't pass it up, just trying to keep it light

[brandon]

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

The Atari version of ET was not commercial equipment costing thousands of dollars per unit.  

true.. but to say that only popular items are ever produced in quantity is not necessary true.. with arcade games or anything else

[brandon]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious here, but the classic arcade machines have already been built, by someone else, many years ago.

If you are going to take the initialism of this site to heart, then if you want a cabinet, you should be Building Your Own.

Understood  It just pains me a bit, being so new to this "scene", to see angry posts arguing about morality and all ... (games ... they're just games)

Not to mention the fact that its "Build Your Own Controls" not "Build Your Own Cabinet" but like I said before.. I've never Mamed anything and I AM building my own cabinet but I can't get upset about what somebody else does to their own property.  Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

Oh, and to suggest that MAME kills classic cabinets... well, that's about the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.  Mame is a piece of software ya know... Unless we live in the Matrix I'm not sure how its responsible for destroying cabinets... Mame doesnt kill cabinets, People kill cabinets

This is what I've been trying to get through to them. That the collecting community literally hates the BYOAC and Mame,

I'm a proud member of BYOAC and think that Mame is the greatest thing since sliced bread... So quite frankly the "collecting community" can kiss my white ass

[FrizzleFried]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

Well...why not BUILD YOUR OWN STUFF instead of killing a classic dedicated cabinet?   Give me a break.

 

[TelcoLou]

Taken to the extreme, yes, but I wonder ... would we be able to hear the collective shriek world-wide if this were MAME'd?

[RayB]

heh. Wow, we've seen mame and arcade cabinets compared to:

- classic cars
- faberge eggs
- the plight of the baby seal
- the environment
- abortion
- the right to bear arms

wow!

Let me add to the list: Think of the starving children in Africa!!

thank you.

PS: I blame SAINT for all this! It's his fault for writing that stupid book!   

[TelcoLou]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

Well...why not BUILD YOUR OWN STUFF instead of killing a classic dedicated cabinet?   Give me a break.

 

Well, in my case, I didn't have the funds, tools or experience to build my own, so I saw an already gutted, already converted cabinet for only $50. Seeing as it was pre-killed, I don't see how re-using the corpse would harm anyone.

[RayB]

Taken to the extreme, yes, but I wonder ... would we be able to hear the collective shriek world-wide if this were MAME'd?

It's been done.

[ChadTower]

RayB, you and I both know this is a lot more like homeless Iraq veterans than it is starving children in Africa.  Duh. 

[yalborap]

Taken to the extreme, yes, but I wonder ... would we be able to hear the collective shriek world-wide if this were MAME'd?

It's been done. Maybe not with MAME, but we've seen these things converted into Ms Pacman and other games. [/size]

What exactly am I looking at here? *uncultured swine*

[Hoopz]

On a side note, the Faberge Eggs aren't made out of real eggs.  I assume everyone knows that but just in case someone thought there really was a small, white, roughly 100 year old friggin egg in the damn things, I wanted to point that out.  They were originally made for the Czar's children in Russia as Easter Eggs.

Back to the pissin' match.  Sorry for the hijack.   

[fixedpigs]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

[yalborap]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Sir, you have officially jumped the debate shark.

[csa3d]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Unlike tiger DNA, this earth is still producing trees, which is what you'd harvest to make wood, at which point you could recreate the stupid box that the SOLD ELECTRONICS could be fashioned back inside of.

I'm down with the above corpse analogy.  No electronics were harmed in the making of my project.

-csa

[ChadTower]

Cutting down tree is what is making the tigers extinct.  Stop killing Galaxians and tigers, dumbass.

[yalborap]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Unlike tiger DNA, this earth is still producing trees, which is what you'd harvest to make wood, at which point you could recreate the stupid box that the SOLD ELECTRONICS could be fashioned back inside of.

I'm down with the above corpse analogy.  No electronics were harmed in the making of my project.

-csa

What about the artwork? I only had a chance to skim through the original thread, but everything was untouched or swapped with reproduction stuff, yes?

[brandon]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

well.. add siberian tigers to the list of ridiculous things that Galaxian has been compared to... You see there is one MAJOR difference here.  siberian tigers are part of the world ecosystem and belong to everyone AND they are living breathing creatures that cant be restored.   This particular Galaxian in question is NOT beyond restoration even now... sure it would take some work and some money  but nothing is to stop somebody from put all the original guts back in and a control panel.  The side art is already being done.  Its not the last Galaxian in existence and.. ITS HIS

[brandon]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Unlike tiger DNA, this earth is still producing trees, which is what you'd harvest to make wood, at which point you could recreate the stupid box that the SOLD ELECTRONICS could be fashioned back inside of.

I'm down with the above corpse analogy.  No electronics were harmed in the making of my project.

-csa

Just face it man... You are a selfish bastard for doing what you want to your own property

[bishmasterb]

We are talking about arcade cabinets, right? 30 year old plywood boxes with bad paint jobs and fun games installed in them?

[yalborap]

We are talking about arcade cabinets, right? 30 year old plywood boxes with bad paint jobs and fun games installed in them?

No. We're talking about ancient, gold-and-jewel-encrusted tiger eggs. 

[brandon]

We are talking about arcade cabinets, right? 30 year old plywood boxes with bad paint jobs and fun games installed in them?

No. We're talking about ancient, gold-and-jewel-encrusted tiger eggs. 

...with a baby seal inside and inside the brain of that seal.. the knowledge to solve the energy crisis and end global warming.

[csa3d]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Unlike tiger DNA, this earth is still producing trees, which is what you'd harvest to make wood, at which point you could recreate the stupid box that the SOLD ELECTRONICS could be fashioned back inside of.

I'm down with the above corpse analogy.  No electronics were harmed in the making of my project.

-csa

What about the artwork? I only had a chance to skim through the original thread, but everything was untouched or swapped with reproduction stuff, yes?

Since I'm still on trial here..

The bezel glass, and CGA monitor, and ROMSTAR control panel which came with the cab sit in my garadge under plastic, unharmed.  Feel free to make an offer for them if you want them.
100% full sized Repro artwork from MameMarquees arrived last night, that's for next weekend.
original Coin Door fully restored
original marquee still in place, polished along with repainting of retainer
original black texture t-molding purchased, yet to be installed
replica midway badge from ThisOldGame.com installed
Exterior white paint (back and top) repainted
INterior black parts repainted
Interior painted to remove must/mold issue
Romstar control panel in the garage if anyone wants that..
motherboard now belong to byoac member Peale for his galaxian which was missing one supposedly.

So yeah.. things I did which you can boil me in water for:
- I painted the inside of the machine to remove mold and must (how dare me.. this thing is going in a household.. why be sanitary)
- I parted it out a "complete" mess of a cab, because I only wanted the corpse
- I removed the internal monitor braces from the original cab because they didn't lend themselves well to the rotating monitor
- I modified the back wooden admin door, so it swings like a normal door
- I sealed up the 6x9 speaker hole in lue of a better modern speaker solution

Yes I could have built a box, NO, at the time I did not have the skills, tools or knowledge to do so.

No, I don't care either, I don't like antiques, and believe there is quite a market for after-market car parts.

Round 3, ding!
-csa

[yalborap]

Think of it this way... If he'd restored it back to Galaxian 100% how would this effect me?  Is my quality of life suddenly improved?  Does an angel get their wings?  Does the hole in the ozone layer shrink?  see, I'm not effected by the outcome of his Galaxian project.. therefore I'm not going to get emotional about it.

that's exactly the kind of asinine selfish thinking that is the root of these problems...

it's all about the 'me' factor...

how does anything that doesn't affect me directly matter...?

'oh what...there's no more siberian tigers left...all extinct are they...?
oh well...who cares...they don't have anything to do with me...!'

Unlike tiger DNA, this earth is still producing trees, which is what you'd harvest to make wood, at which point you could recreate the stupid box that the SOLD ELECTRONICS could be fashioned back inside of.

I'm down with the above corpse analogy.  No electronics were harmed in the making of my project.

-csa

What about the artwork? I only had a chance to skim through the original thread, but everything was untouched or swapped with reproduction stuff, yes?

Since I'm still on trial here..

The bezel glass, and CGA monitor, and ROMSTAR control panel which came with the cab sit in my garadge under plastic, unharmed.  Feel free to make an offer for them if you want them.
100% full sized Repro artwork from MameMarquees arrived last night, that's for next weekend.
original Coin Door fully restored
original marquee still in place, polished along with repainting of retainer
original black texture t-molding purchased, yet to be installed
replica midway badge from ThisOldGame.com installed
Exterior white paint (back and top) repainted
INterior black parts repainted
Interior painted to remove must/mold issue
Romstar control panel in the garage if anyone wants that..
motherboard now belong to byoac member Peale for his galaxian which was missing one supposedly.

So yeah.. things I did which you can boil me in water for:
- I painted the inside of the machine to remove mold and must (how dare me.. this thing is going in a household.. why be sanitary)
- I parted it out a "complete" mess of a cab, because I only wanted the corpse
- I removed the internal monitor braces from the original cab because they didn't lend themselves well to the rotating monitor
- I modified the back wooden admin door, so it swings like a normal door
- I sealed up the 6x9 speaker hole in lue of a better modern speaker solution

Yes I could have built a box, NO, at the time I did not have the skills, tools or knowledge to do so.

No, I don't care either, I don't like antiques, and believe there is quite a market for after-market car parts.

Round 3, ding!
-csa

Dude, I'm on your side on this! I'm not trying to put you on trial here, I was just curious.

...Do you want a hug?

[Hoopz]

Since I'm still on trial here..

The bezel glass, and CGA monitor, and ROMSTAR control panel which came with the cab sit in my garadge under plastic, unharmed.  Feel free to make an offer for them if you want them.
100% full sized Repro artwork from MameMarquees arrived last night, that's for next weekend.
original Coin Door fully restored
original marquee still in place, polished along with repainting of retainer
original black texture t-molding purchased, yet to be installed
replica midway badge from ThisOldGame.com installed
Exterior white paint (back and top) repainted
INterior black parts repainted
Interior painted to remove must/mold issue
Romstar control panel in the garage if anyone wants that..
motherboard now belong to byoac member Peale for his galaxian which was missing one supposedly.

Peale getting the motherboard helps out a member of the community and keeps another machine in operating condition.  That's a good thing and should appease some people around here.  It doesn't sound like anything done so far as altered the cabinet to a condition that can't be fixed relatively easily.

I didn't read the original thread so I don't know any other details.  From what this post says, I don't see this being a huge issue.  Though why create another thread defending what's been done, doesn't make that much sense.

[shardian]

What I want to know is why has this case been dragged out so much when the final product will be a VERY well done Galaxian cabinet that will be a great modern tribute to the original machine. Why nail this one when that one guy is still turning a mint Smash TV into a pink puffball??

[csa3d]

I would prefer to keep the original thread on topic about questions or comments pertaining to the BUILD, so that the project thread does not turn into an ethics thread.  There's nothing more annoying when trying to find information on this board, then to have the search option return results to a thread which has gone so far off topic, you loose interest in finding the answer you originally were searching for.

Or.. you can go with "I'm scared of what other board members may think and wanted to draw attention away from what I was really doing."  Ask Fozzy, he's got the real answer.

-csa

[patrickl]

[Hoopz]

I think its a cop out to say don't Mame a classic cab.  It's probably more accurate to say "don't damage it so that it can't be restored at some point".

There was a post a few years ago in EE with the flapjack who took a classic cabinet and posted an awful control panel that only fit because the cabinet itself had to be cut and bastardized.  I think it was being sold on on Ebay but don't recall now.  It was awful because of the changes that were made.  If someone is doing going to that degree, I agree that it's a problem. 

When someone takes the time to part it out, makes cosmetic or physical changes that can be undone easily, and otherwise protects the integrity of the cabinet, I think it's his (her) right to do this.

 

[brandon]

what God does to HIS kittens is HIS business

[RayB]

I think its a cop out to say don't Mame a classic cab.  It's probably more accurate to say "don't damage it so that it can't be restored at some point".

There was a post a few years ago in EE with the flapjack who took a classic cabinet and posted an awful control panel that only fit because the cabinet itself had to be cut and bastardized.  I think it was being sold on on Ebay but don't recall now.  It was awful because of the changes that were made.  If someone is doing going to that degree, I agree that it's a problem. 

Methinks you're thinking about the working Dig Dug that had the control panel ripped out, a big ass "landing strip" of a control panel tacked on, original monitor replaced with a PC monitor or TV, and then to add to the drama, he had cut out the front area and built in some shelves to store his game consoles on. All done in a rather hackish way too.

PS: This used to be a Major Havoc:

[Sir Auros]

Well,  I am tired of defending the MAME community over at KLOV.
It seems that the arcade collecting community is right...

---fudgesicle--- it...it's your cab...do what you want...doesn't mean I'm not going to call you a --cream-filled twinkie-- for doing so.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,  for some strange reason I highly doubt it's a Humming Bird.

Solution: Stay at KLOV with the arcade collectors instead of sticking around here calling newbies --bags of cream-filled twinkies--.

csa3d - I'm 100% on your side here if only because I'm tired of asshats like FrizzleFried hijacking project threads over this argument.

[Hoopz]

Methinks you're thinking about the working Dig Dug that had the control panel ripped out, a big ass "landing strip" of a control panel tacked on, original monitor replaced with a PC monitor or TV, and then to add to the drama, he had cut out the front area and built in some shelves to store his game consoles on. All done in a rather hackish way too.

That sounds right.  Utterly stupid looking. 

[RayB]

I will not let this thread die. But let's ease off on Mr. Galaxian. He could have done THIS:

(the infamous DigDug massacre)
http://www.arcadeathome.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=49969

[Sir Auros]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

[CheffoJeffo]

What is the problem with trying to convince a newbie not to butcher a complete, working and rare cabinet (as that was) ?

Did you notice how many people voiced the same opinion ?

Do you think they are all meanies ?

[ChadTower]

I bet that game is a whole lot rarer in Elbonia, too.

[Sir Auros]

Re:No, and I think the first few people that commented handled it well. However, the thread quickly devolved into a virtual lynchmob, and the fault lies partly in people ganging up on him and partly in the hands of some people who are just holier-than-thou on this subject.

EDIT - I think the mob mentality is one of the things about this forum that makes it so hostile to people who haven't been regulars for years and years. Now that I've voiced an opposing opinion, it'll be open season on me.

EDIT 2 - I'm not up for continuing the argument if others want to debate it with me. I just wish you guys could see how damn nasty this place can be sometimes. Namely, if you don't agree with the majority.

[MadGamer]

Here is someone doing their part take note.

[Sir Auros]

In a way, that's kind of awesome. Imagine what a hit that'd be in a dorm if instead of plain, cardboard boxes, it were made out of Beast (or any other cheap beer) boxes.

[CheffoJeffo]

Welcome to teh innernets! 

As I said previously, my personal stance has softened markedly. I have seen cabs burned, smashed, thrown off of buildings, dragged behind cars and sent to the dump. And that wasn't by MAMErs, but by actual collectors. Reactions range from supportive to total disgust.

Having said that, if you do something that people are going to find objectionable and then post about it in a place where those people congregate (this isn't just a site for MAMErs), then you can expect people to object loudly (even csa3d said that he was expecting more flames).

The outrage will continue, just like the butchering of classics will continue. NOTE: I am not making any judgement as to csa3d's specific project in this statement.

[Hoopz]

What is the problem with trying to convince a newbie not to butcher a complete, working and rare cabinet (as that was) ?

Did you notice how many people voiced the same opinion ?

Do you think they are all meanies ?

I think there is a line between trying to share that opinion v. attacking someone personally.  Some people cross the line and make it personal and IMHO that's wrong.  A message that's thoughtful, accurate, and persuasive has much better chance of being received positively than personal attacks.

Not saying you did that, but it's pretty clear some others do.

[SithMaster]

 

Seriously im going to die laughing and i dont care.

[CheffoJeffo]

EDIT - I think the mob mentality is one of the things about this forum that makes it so hostile to people who haven't been regulars for years and years. Now that I've voiced an opposing opinion, it'll be open season on me.

EDIT 2 - I'm not up for continuing the argument if others want to debate it with me. I just wish you guys could see how damn nasty this place can be sometimes. Namely, if you don't agree with the majority.

The mob mentality happens in every online forum and isn't limited to the old timers by any stretch. I also think there is a flip side to the "regulars vs newbie" argument that you make -- how many old timers, whom have been very helpful over the years, spend vastly less time here because of the attitude they get ? That road goes both ways.

And it can get nasty at times -- I know that I have been guilty of going too far on occasion (haven't we all ?), but that path isn't walked by oldtimers alone either.

EDIT: Never mind ... this shouldn't be a newbie vs oldtimers argument ... there is room for everybody here.

[MadGamer]

I always thought the same way why not make it out of something less expected. What kind of imagination is that. Hey I'm going to make a video game out of a video game.

But really you should try and preserve these games. That what makes this site so important. So there is a place to come and get all the information you need to enjoy gaming without harming a potentially rare arcade classic. Someone had mention how the preservationist don't like this group and its tough to defend it all the time. Can you even imagine what the scene would be like without saints contribution. Those other groups should be smart enough to know an Alli from an enemy. Ponder that

                                                     

[brandon]

What is the problem with trying to convince a newbie not to butcher a complete, working and rare cabinet (as that was) ?

Did you notice how many people voiced the same opinion ?

Do you think they are all meanies ?

Trying to talk somebody out of it is one thing.. but to continuely bust his balls after the fact... what's the point?  Trying to make an example of him?

[Sir Auros]

CheffoJeffo - I read your post before you edited, and I get your points, but I don't think it has to be that way. I don't know that I'm saying it is here, either.

[CheffoJeffo]

Trying to talk somebody out of it is one thing.. but to continuely bust his balls after the fact... what's the point?  Trying to make an example of him?

My point there was that I didn't think that was a bad thread or that it devolved into a lynch all that much. People kept trying to make their points, sure, but there were a lot of people with the same opinion and I didn't think it was nearly as bad as it was made out to be.

[brandon]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

they didnt save anything.. he just quit posting..  There's probably a pink fluffy monstrosity in his room as we speak..  The Smash TV and the Dig Dug  examples are light years beyond what's been done to that Galaxian.  He's actually keeping the original artwork theme intact and integrating his monitor and controls into the available space.. Its by no means the hack job of the former two examples..

[FrizzleFried]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

they didnt save anything.. he just quit posting..  There's probably a pink fluffy monstrosity in his room as we speak..  The Smash TV and the Dig Dug  examples are light years beyond what's been done to that Galaxian.  He's actually keeping the original artwork theme intact and integrating his monitor and controls into the available space.. Its by no means the hack job of the former two examples..

Please explain how that is different?  Seriously...just playing devils advocate.  If it's uncool to destroy an arcade machine badly (IE: The Dig Dug &  Smash TV examples),  then what makes it OK to destroy an arcade machine well (IE: Galaxian)?

Isn't the end result the same...a dedicated classic arcade that will never be again?

Does anyone here REALLY think this Galaxian will ever house another set of Galaxian boards....ever?

[brandon]

Isn't the end result the same...a dedicated classic arcade that will never be again?

Does anyone here REALLY think this Galaxian will ever house another set of Galaxian boards....ever?

how do you know it wont?  Maybe the guys grandkids will restore it original some day... maybe he'll build a scratch built cab in a few years and ebay that one.. Somebody else can put a wire harness, monitor, etc back in it then.  What if he had bought a Galaxian to Jamma adaptor and then installed a J-Pac and Mamed it that way... would the cabinet have been anymore likely to ever have original PCBs installed at a later date?  sure, it would've been easier but its not impossible now.  If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less.  Maybe the fact that I've undone so many BAD conversion is why this doesnt bother me that much.  There really isnt that much to the internals of these machines... 

[MaximRecoil]

If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less. 

He mangled the speaker panel pretty good, not to mention what he did to the monitor mounts and such.

Regardless of that, your claim doesn't mean much. There are plenty of people that could build a Galaxian from the ground-up in a week or less if they had all the parts.

[brandon]

If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less. 

He mangled the speaker panel pretty good, not to mention what he did to the monitor mounts and such.

Regardless of that, your claim doesn't mean much. There are plenty of people that could build a Galaxian from the ground-up in a week or less if they had all the parts.

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

[MaximRecoil]

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

I didn't say anything about "easy"—you did. Because something can be done in a week or less; that doesn't necessarily make it "easy".

Most any damage to most anything can be "undone" in a sense; including total destruction. That doesn't mean that damaging stuff is to be commended.

[brandon]

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

I didn't say anything about "easy"—you did. Because something can be done in a week or less; that doesn't necessarily make it "easy".

Most any damage to most anything can be "undone" in a sense; including total destruction. That doesn't mean that damaging stuff is to be commended.

The fact that it CAN be undone with minimal time and effort means this.. You can't compare it to killing off some endangered species.  According to KLOV:

Of the 40,646 video games (3,114 unique) tracked by the Video Game Preservation Society, this game ranks a 81 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most commonly seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on ownership records

Mortal Kombat only scored a 63.. so its actually less common.. Also, "5 VAPS members currently looking for this game." yet, 7 VAPS members are looking for MK... So, it would seem that Mortal Kombat is more rare and in fact, in more demand that Galaxian.   Do you honestly think everybody would be freaking out if he Mamed an MK machine?  According to the stats they should..   Oh I "GET IT" just fine.  I just think you folks are overreacting..  especially since the "damage" is done and you're accomplishing nothing by chastising CSA3D

[DaveMMR]

Brandon, the stats on KLOV pertain to members who own the game in some form (PCB, dedicated, coversion).  It's not a scientific indication of anything being "rare" or "common".  You forgot to read this part afterwards:

Rarity is NOT necessarily an indication of value. Some common games show up as very rare here because collectors don't want them (they are common because arcade operatos might be sitting on tons of them in warehouses), while some fairly scarce games are grabbed by collectors every time they show up.

Back to the debate at hand:  I can understand everyone's stance.  But the fact is some people seem to have this general disrespect for others' passions.  Many people are here because they have a love for the technology and design of classic cabs and are trying to recreate that feeling.  Some, however, just want to stick a computer in whatever cabinet comes their way and just get at playing some games - no matter if it's rare and desirable or not. 

And you know what, again... it's his or her cab.  But you can't go destroying a classic cab and then act all confused when the arcade collectors who frequent this board get insulted and/or angry at what's been done.  Some people may not understand why this is.  But it's almost as if you go on some record collecting message board and showing off pictures of how you're using the "butcher cover" of The Beatles' "Yesteday and Today" to chop vegtables.  Yes, some people have a great deal of respect for the original cabinets.  It's just the slightest bit disrespectful to laugh it off and say "what's the big deal" and have no idea what the heart of this hobby is all about. 

Again, if you want a big box with games inside, empty, gutted cabinets are easy enough to obtain to those who look.  And building one is not that hard.

[Sir Auros]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

[DaveMMR]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

Reread my post.  I never said this was strictly a "collector's board".  I simply implied that many people who frequent these boards are also collectors of coin-ops.

And building MAME cabinets is not synonymous with altering a classic cab to play MAME, btw.  If that's what your beliefs are then remind me to keep you away from Chuck E. Cheese.   

[yalborap]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

Reread my post.  I never said this was strictly a "collector's board".  I simply implied that many people who frequent these boards are also collectors of coin-ops.

And building MAME cabinets is not synonymous with altering a classic cab to play MAME, btw.  If that's what your beliefs are then remind me to keep you away from Chuck E. Cheese.   

...Dammit, now I want to sneak into a Chuck E. Cheese in the middle of the night and use J-Pacs and Mini-ITX boards to convert all the machines to mame.

[Sir Auros]

Re:DaveMMR

I read it correctly the first time. Maybe if people feel that strongly, they should stick more to the collector's boards or just stay out of project announcements if they can't behave themselves.

I just got around to reading csa3d's project thread all the way through (I'd only read the last page up to now), and the critical responses from CheffoJeffo, Level42, and leapinlew were more than reasonable. However, Fozzy the Bear (sorry bro, I'm with you on SlikStik, but not this) and FrizzleFried turned things nasty when the thread was revived recently.

I'll admit that I probably misspoke when saying that there are a lot of ---uvula--- collectors here. I assumed that more people than just those two were giving him a hard time based on this thread and the final page of his.

I think it was brandon who said that it's just a vocal minority that ---smurfette--- and moan. I suppose he's right.

Finally, I never implied that MAME cabinets were built from scratch or entirely conversions. However, I'd put money on most MAME cabs being conversions. There's no way to prove or disprove that, but it seems logical to me.

[Avrus]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

I'm not a collector by any stretch ... but that guy is a complete ---meecrob--- for doing that to a Smash TV cabinet.

That would be likened to taking a '69 corvette stingray in good condition and modding it into some off road monstrosity.

Like, it was still playable, and the control panel was in great shape. 

[Avrus]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

I'm not a collector by any stretch ... but that guy is a complete ---meecrob--- for doing that to a Smash TV cabinet.

That would be likened to taking a '69 corvette stingray in good condition and modding it into some off road monstrosity.

Like, it was still playable, and the control panel was in great shape. 

  Then go to ---smurfing--- Estonia and get it from him.

He's modding the Stingray on Neptune, do you still want to save it?

Maybe you and I just differ?  Like I said, I'm not a collector but I can appreciate how rare and how beautiful a working, good condition Smash TV cabinet is. 

Yes, if he was modding the Stingary on Neptune, I would pay shipping (through UPS no less) to have it shipped to Canada to save it.  Also, imagine the response one would get in a Stingray enthusiasts forum.

If I had a spare thousand or so I would buy the Smash TV cabinet off him as well because it's a travesty.

Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should.

You do realize this is a hobby filled with arcade enthusiasts right?

[DaveMMR]

I read it correctly the first time. Maybe if people feel that strongly, they should stick more to the collector's boards or just stay out of project announcements if they can't behave themselves.
(rest of post edited but alluded to)

So basically you're saying "anyone who has an opinion that differs from mine should stay off those threads"?  Is that fair?  Has anyone told you to "find a different thread" when you expressed a difference of opinion?  Yeah, some people express their opinions harshly.  But as someone pointed out, it's the nature of the internet.  If anyone can't deal with critism, then don't post your creations/modifications/projects to a public space and ask for opinions.

And yes, there's a vocal minority.  But I suspect there's a larger group who just look at projects like that "modified" Dig Dug, and shake their head in disbelief without saying anything.  And yeah, I'm one of the silent detractors of butchering cabs irreversibly (not referring to the topic starter's cab, btw - it's pretty much reversible).  

EDIT: I see as I was typing this you were getting verbally angry at someone else for caring about a pristine Smash TV.  If it bothers you so much, perhaps you need to take a breath and relax for five or ten minutes.

EDIT 2:

Finally, I never implied that MAME cabinets were built from scratch or entirely conversions. However, I'd put money on most MAME cabs being conversions. There's no way to prove or disprove that, but it seems logical to me.

You added the above as I was typing my original response.  There is a way to prove it.  There's an example link on this site that let's you filter our "scratch-built" and "conversions".  I don't know which is more plentiful and I don't care because that's immaterial.  Again, I was referring to "butchered classic cabs", not "conversion of a gutted and/or generic" cab.  Although now that I think about it, we should be able to filter out cabs that were originally a Tron or Centipede but transformed into a MAME machine with a 6-foot wide panel.

[CheffoJeffo]

Yes, if he was modding the Stingary on Neptune, I would pay shipping (through UPS no less) to have it shipped to Canada to save it.

 

 

EDIT: Before anybody gets offended, it is the shipping through UPS to Canada that is funny ...

[fixedpigs]

aye...

just get zakk to pay the brokerage fees...

[CheffoJeffo]

As a reminder that it isn't just MAMErs who sometimes do bad things to good cabs ...

http://www.brentradio.com/Hellcade.htm

 

[Avrus]

For the record regarding the Smash TV cabinet.  I told my friend (who's not a MAME'r but is the same age as I am) what the guy was doing with the Smash TV Cabinet.

His response.

'Why would he do that?'  'Why would he want to do that?'

I think that sums it up.

[pcb]

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

The guy should stop letting his daughter lick the window.

[Avrus]

...and you say nothing to Avrus for also getting "verbally angry," or any of the other people in that thread? Like I said, the problem is that a certain viewpoint is accepted here to the point where it's apparently kosher to be abusive to people, regardless of saint's efforts to keep things nice around here.

Naw man: sad, disappointed, bewildered. 

[yalborap]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US. So I never had a chance for them to become a major part of my life; They're there as a second-degree part, simply because the SNES was a big part(we didn't get an N64 until they were down to $99, so my early early childhood was pure SNES), and hence other games from around that era(both timeline-wise and graphically) resonate with me.

So...Yeah. I've said what I'm going to say. React how you all wish, but I'm done with the fighting. I came here to have fun and discuss old arcades games and the tech involved in MAME cabs, not argue over this as if it could save the world's economy if we were to preserve enough cabs or burn them all as a hip new fuel source or something. We can have a civil discussion over this, but I'm not touching any further arguments.

FOOTNOTE: Reading over this, I really bounced from point to point too much....Oh well. Might as well just live with it instead of trying to rewrite it from the ground up.

[Avrus]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US.

Right ... so that's why you wouldn't understand the passion of many of the people here.  I'm 33, I spent every waking moment I could in an arcade.

I took an hour and 15 minutes of buses to get into the 7-11 in downtown Calgary because they were the only place to have Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition.  The lineup was 75+ people from 6 in the morning until 2 or 3 the next morning.

It's a part of my culture and my youth as much as the Atari 2600, cartridges, the Commodre 64 etc.

I mean no disrespect by my post, but I don't think it's something I could explain.  If it wasn't a part of your culture I wouldn't expect you to understand the feelings these cabinets emote.

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

[RayB]

At the end of the day... it's all about emotional attachment to inanimate (though interactive!) objects.

[yalborap]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US.

Right ... so that's why you wouldn't understand the passion of many of the people here.  I'm 33, I spent every waking moment I could in an arcade.

I took an hour and 15 minutes of buses to get into the 7-11 in downtown Calgary because they were the only place to have Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition.  The lineup was 75+ people from 6 in the morning until 2 or 3 the next morning.

It's a part of my culture and my youth as much as the Atari 2600, cartridges, the Commodre 64 etc.

I mean no disrespect by my post, but I don't think it's something I could explain.  If it wasn't a part of your culture I wouldn't expect you to understand the feelings these cabinets emote.

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

Well, speaking as a guy who has been a gamer longer than he can remember, I can certainly 'get' severe passion for games. I just think it's a little silly to get overly worked up, whether it's over maimed cabs  or what company is better or the rerising costs of console titles or...ANY of it. They're games, right? For better or worse, no matter how much passion we have for them, they are created first and foremost to be fun. Shouldn't we honor that and just enjoy them?

NOTE: I am making an exception for getting overly worked up at the sheer unfairness of a game. That is acceptable and at times mandatory. Devil May Cry 3 Dante Must Die mode, I am looking at you. Ninja Gaiden NES version, I am looking at you and your Xbox reboot too. Contra without the konami code, I am looking at you. Megaman, I am looking at you with rage never before conjured by man.

[NIVO]

please maintain subject matter to on topic discussion only.

[brandon]

As a reminder that it isn't just MAMErs who sometimes do bad things to good cabs ...

http://www.brentradio.com/Hellcade.htm

 

I dont get it.. what's wrong with these cabs?


J/K!!   

[brandon]

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

I'm 29 so I most definitely get it.. what I dont get is folks like Fozzy and Frizzle utterly chewing this guys ass after the fact...  More than one person said their peace over a year ago about how he should restore his Galaxian and not Mame it.  Well.. he heard your advice but choose to do something else.  You dont have to like it but what's done is done.  Has nobody heard of beating a dead horse?  Nobody is asking you to be OK with it... nobody is asking for your praise..  You've stated your opinion and its been noted.  No point in personal attacks or spamming his project thread with off topic stuff.   and like I've stated before.. I personally wouldn't have Mamed that cabinet.  I would've got it working as-is, sold it and used the money to buy parts for an 27" 4-player uber cabinet   BUT that's not what he did.  Just because I personally wouldnt have Mamed it that doesnt mean that I'm going to question CSA3D's ethics or morals because he did. 

That pretty much summarizes my opinion on the matter

[RandyT]

I'm having a bit of a hard time getting too sentimental over this particular specimen myself.  I definitely like to see a cabinet left in one piece and restored if possible, but when so much is defective or unoriginal that you are replacing or repairing virtually every single item, it's a lost cause.  So much of the end result will be aftermarket, it might as well be a scratch-built copy.

I have a Galaxian sitting behind me that some joker decided should have the entire kickpanel painted black, probably due to similar damage.  I'll probably just print a nice new front for it so it looks presentable again, but I won't pretend that it is going to be as good as if the panel was original, clean and just required some "touching up".  The sides are dirty and need a touch-up, but nowhere close to the condition of this poor beast in question.

I say be happy it didn't get torched so some doofus could put a video of it on You-Tube.

RandyT

[Sir Auros]

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

Age is irrelevant, and brandon already said what I'd add at this point.

[ChadTower]

What I see in this thread is a guy doing something he knows is going to be unpopular, announcing his actions, and acting surprised and victimized when the majority are against it. 

Does this guy have the right to do what he wants with his Galaxian?  Yes. 

Does the community have the right to react to it?  Yes, because he made it a community issue when he announced and detailed it.

Does this community tend to pile on when they see something they don't like?  I don't think they do - unless the person acts like this guy is acting.  If the guy just said "well, it's mine, I get that you guys don't like it, but this is going to happen" the community probably would have let it go.  The fact that the guy couldn't deal with the opposition, and turned it into a "me vs all of you" situation, is what brought so many people into the thread.  Is that necessarily fair?  I don't think so, but he knew it would happen, given that this guy has been a BYOAC member since 2003 (Sir Auros) and 2005 (the original poster).

[shardian]

The fact that the guy couldn't deal with the opposition, and turned it into a "me vs all of you" situation, is what brought so many people into the thread.  Is that necessarily fair?  I don't think so, but he knew it would happen, given that this guy has been a BYOAC member since 2003 (Sir Auros) and 2005 (the original poster).

This thread was created to get the argument out of his project thread, as it should be and has been (for the most part).

[ChadTower]

This thread was created to get the argument out of his project thread, as it should be and has been (for the most part).

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear.  He had to have known this would happen, it did, and now he's acting like he had no part in it.

[mccoy178]

Chad, you have no clue what is going on here.

[ChadTower]

Chad, you have no clue what is going on here.

I've read the whole thread and the project thread, as well as the thread RayB resurrected.  Your disagreement with my opinion does not mean I misunderstand.

[shardian]

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear.  He had to have known this would happen, it did, and now he's acting like he had no part in it.

Have you even read the thread? He has come in to add details because people are going off half-cocked, and don't even know which cabinet the guy used.


The only thing he did that I would tend to disagree with is the speaker mod. Everything else is pretty damn cool. Besides, he is replacing all of the art with original repro art. This machine will still be a Galaxian cabinet for goodness sakes - just a way cooler Galaxian. He could throw on a cheap used original CP, and 95% of people here would not bat an eye.

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

[ChadTower]

Have you even read the thread? He has come in to add details because people are going off half-cocked, and don't even know which cabinet the guy used.

I didn't make any comment about my opinion as to how much or how little he did to the cab.  I didn't comment on the project itself at all except to say that some of the community didn't like it - and they didn't.

[FrizzleFried]

...alright,  I think we've all said what we wanted to say...how about we let this thread die?   A couple folks berate me for expressing my opinion in here...well,  that is why this thread was created.  I removed my opinions from his Project Announcement thread days ago...

Homie is gunna do what homie is gunna do...

 

[MaximRecoil]

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

[shardian]

It is my opinion that projects that are done as well as this guys is do WAY more to preserve the history of arcades than taking a rag to the cabinet, but it still being beat up royally.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

The spirit of the machine is still alive and well in his project with what he has done. This guys work is WAY down the list of proverbial bones collectors have to pick with "Mamers".

And like I said before, he could slap a Galaxian CP on there and people would say "WOW, that is a SWEET Restoration."

[MaximRecoil]

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

No, that isn't what "preserving the history" means. If that was the case, repainting over the Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

Preserving history means just that. You can't preserve history by modifying it, no matter how much more appealing you make it. 

[shardian]

Preserving the history means getting new generations to be interested. His project is very well done, and will look great/ be an attention getter when it is done. It will interest any newer generations he shows it to.

No, that isn't what "preserving the history" means. If that was the case, repainting over the Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

Preserving history means just that. You can't preserve history by modifying it, no matter how much more appealing you make it. 

I hate to break this to you, but I don't think plywood/particle board box is designed to last the test of time.
 I tell you what, preserving these games don't mean ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if there aren't new generations who fall in love with them. As even frizzle has said, if it weren't for MAME, this site, and bastard MAME cabs, he would not be where he is in the hobby. Same for me. Same for alot of folks who were not old enough to fully enjoy the Golden Age of arcades. The guy has shown his love for the hobby in the detail he has presented. I wouldn't doubt it if he ends up restoring several cabinets eventually.

I just feel a tastefully done project as this is not a "bad thing" as it is being made out to be. Same with the '57 Chevy couch. That probably came from a beat to hell car, was refurbished and turned into a beautiful piece of furniture that I would be honored to have in my house and pass to my kids. It isn't a tragedy, it is an honor for a junkyard piece of metal. Same thing here, that cabinet was more likely than not doomed for the trash pile in the near future. This guy saved it, and made it into something nice and desirable.

Cut the guy some friggin slack.

[FrizzleFried]

...as one of the more vocal,  I too agree that his project was about as borderline as they come...it's very well done for sure (never said it wasn't).  I just don't really see the difference between MAMEing a classic dedicated cabinet well or hacking it to hell.  The end result is the same...one less dedicated classic arcade machine.

THAT SAID...his cabinet was also quite borderline... IMHO it was just a hair over the "yes,  it's worth restoring" line.   Had the machine been gutted... or converted... or already hacked,  I'd have a different opinion.  I admit though that it was about as close to that line as I've seen a cab...this situation isn't in the same league as the Smash TV especially (being that cab was fully working if my recollection serves me).

In the end,  Shardian is right... the cab will look great... and will be played... and possibly will aid in getting others to enjoy this (or arcade collecting) hobby.

[MaximRecoil]

I hate to break this to you, but I don't think plywood/particle board box is designed to last the test of time.

They will if you take care of them. That's what "preserving" is all about.

I tell you what, preserving these games don't mean ---Cleveland steamer--- if there aren't new generations who fall in love with them.

That's an opinion. If it was a universal opinion, then museums would throw out about 99% of their stuff that only a small segment of the population is actually interested in. Do you care about a basic bowl from 3rd century India by any chance? Are they particularly popular with the kids these days? Should they be gold plated for some extra "bling" in order to stir up interest?

As even frizzle has said, if it weren't for MAME, this site, and bastard MAME cabs, he would not be where he is in the hobby. Same for me. Same for alot of folks who were not old enough to fully enjoy the Golden Age of arcades. The guy has shown his love for the hobby in the detail he has presented. I wouldn't doubt it if he ends up restoring several cabinets eventually.

The same thing can be accomplished by building your own cabinet, or starting with a non-classic.  

[SavannahLion]

Mona Lisa to give her a big set of jugs would be "preserving history", because a lot more people would be interested in looking at it.

[RayB]

Page 6 here we come!

[Sir Auros]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

[yalborap]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

We're all "The guy". There's a tiny bit of him in every one of us.

[Sir Auros]

Like an inner-child, or cancer?

[ChadTower]

You can't be The Guy until you beat The Guy.  Woo!

[yalborap]

Like an inner-child, or cancer?

Both!

[Sir Auros]

I'd rather be referred to as "The Dude."

[FrizzleFried]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Also, you might want to be more clear on who "the guy" is. Your posts read ambiguously to me. Am I "the guy," or is csa3d "the guy?" 

[brandon]

Its like sticking it to "The Man"  Those of us who don't think of Galaxian as Unicorn tears are "The Guy"

[brandon]

Chad, the point I think you're missing, or maybe you see it and don't care, is that there is a difference between disagreeing with what he's doing and calling him names for doing it and acting like an ass.

The first two pages of his thread had critical responses that were civil and reasonable. Once some people came in months later on page three, it turned very nasty. csa3d has been nothing but civil as far as I've seen.

Yeah.. especially when Frizzle called him a --cream-filled twinkie-- and said his project was "ASStastic"  The "Collector community" is a civil bunch eh?  and where is this "community"?  Waco,TX?

[FrizzleFried]

Friggin' Nivo cleaned this thread up already once.  I see you're still pissing in it?  How about showing a little class and follow the direction of the moderator and keep this discussion to the topic at hand...

please maintain subject matter to on topic discussion only.

[brandon]

*nudge* *nudge* just a little ribbing.. don't take it personal

[FrizzleFried]

Not the place... not the time.  It's called stirring the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and frankly,  John's a little tired of it (I know,  I got a taste of it elsewhere).

[brandon]

Not the place... not the time.  It's called stirring the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and frankly,  John's a little tired of it (I know,  I got a taste of it elsewhere).

I agree.. just seems a bit of a double standard when YOU are on the recieving end... but I agree enough is enough.. Maybe the thread should be locked

EDIT:
I still stand by my opinion that you and Fozzy chewed that guys ass in excess.. its had nothing to do with my opinion of Maming classics because as I said I agree with you for the most part.  I just think that folks should've been more civil towards CSA3D..  Maming classics gives BYOAC a bad name?  so does flaming newcomers to the forum..

[FrizzleFried]

[SithMaster]

Move along, move along.

edit- so is Saint going to have this rulebook printed or will it be pdf only?

[brandon]

Move along, move along.

edit- so is Saint going to have this rulebook printed or will it be pdf only?

Its going to be an appendix in later revisions of his book

[jlfreund]

My 2c - the lifetime of a cabinet is 10-20yrs.  It may seem relevant to discuss the preservation of these dying cabinets now, when most of them are at end of life but still barely salvageable.

But in the long term, this community is really going to be about preservation of the code.  The software is the thing that needs to survive forever.  We only need the cabinets and the hardware to survive just long enough to get the software emulation to 100%.

Once that is done, no one will care in 50 years from now what happened to the original cabinets between the years 1980 - 2020. 

Jason

[CheffoJeffo]

I'll disagree with jlfreund to some extent and choose agree with Xiaou2  ... for a number of games, the original hardware is an important component of preservation.

And, to be consistent with my preservationist leanings (although those leanings are not nearly as pronounced as they once were), I give fair warning of an upcoming project I have in the queue that will convert a gutted (e.g. absolutely nothing original left) Xenophobe into a horizontal trackball/spinner MAME cabinet. If you want to pay me what I paid for it and haul it out of the basement, then come and get it.

No rush, though, I don't seem to be ripping through my projects like Knievel does ...

[MaximRecoil]

My 2c - the lifetime of a cabinet is 10-20yrs.  It may seem relevant to discuss the preservation of these dying cabinets now, when most of them are at end of life but still barely salvageable.

But in the long term, this community is really going to be about preservation of the code.  The software is the thing that needs to survive forever.  We only need the cabinets and the hardware to survive just long enough to get the software emulation to 100%.

Once that is done, no one will care in 50 years from now what happened to the original cabinets between the years 1980 - 2020. 

Jason

Interesting prophecy. I doubt highly that you are correct though, or even close to being correct. Emulation has been close enough to 100% that no one can tell the difference, on many games, for years. Yet, there is still obviously quite a market for original hardware.

There will always be people who want the real thing.

[DaveMMR]

Just a thought, eschewing any "ethics".  Wouldn't it make more financial sense to make a attempt to sell a dedicated classic that's in decent shape to a collector and try to get another cab in disrepair for cheap?  You really can't sell "MAME Machines" legally. (Although you can sell an empty cabinet with a computer thrown in sans software, I'd imagine) 

[saint]

Its going to be an appendix in later revisions of his book

Actually, it's appendix B of the current book

Preserving Versus MAME’ing the Past

It seems like such a good idea at first thought. Building a home arcade cabinet is a lot of fun, but it can be a good bit of work. Why not take an already existing arcade cabinet, strip out all the stuff you don’t need, and turn it into your home arcade cabinet? It can be really cheap -- throw away cabinets go for a dollar at arcade auctions, nice cabinet shells with artwork and monitors can go for $100 to $150. It’s easy -- instead of building from scratch you simply have to clean it up and you’re ready to go. What’s not to like? What’s the big fuss about?

Most likely you picked up this book due to happy memories of time spent in an arcade, feeding quarters into some machine that you were determined to beat or get a high score on.  Maybe you missed the heyday of the arcades and would like to get a glimpse of it now. Either way, to put it in a nutshell, most of us are trying to recreate a part of the past that we can visit whenever we wish. That seems harmless enough, what’s the great debate about then? The issue is this:

Please don't destroy that past as you attempt to recreate it!

Classic arcade cabinets -- Tron, StarWars, Galaxian, etc. are a dying breed.  They suffer from the ravages of time and conversion to other games. Some will sit in a leaky warehouse until the elements turn it into kindling. Other beautiful classic arcade cabinets will get converted into some mindless fighting game (with apologies to fighting game fans) when the original stops making money. The problem is that classic arcade cabinets represent a finite resource. The arcades of yesterday are just that -- a thing of the past. Barring a scattering of reproduction projects, these classic cabinets cannot be replaced. As if these problems were not bad enough for classic arcade cabinet fans and collectors, suddenly home arcade cabinets (often referred to as MAME cabinets for the emulator most often used on them) started popping up. No one begrudges someone building a personal cabinet from scratch. However, every time a classic arcade cabinet is converted to a home arcade machine, somewhere someone cringes now there’s one fewer cabinet available to collectors.

To an arcade collector, modifying a classic arcade cabinet is akin to chopping down old growth redwood forests. The person doing so may have the legal right to their actions, but they are doing a disservice to humanity. Granted, the degree of the problem is certainly different. Hacking apart an old Robotron cabinet won’t cause environmental problems or displace animals (except, perhaps, a family of mice). It will mean, however, that there’s one less Robotron cabinet in the world. That same cabinet could be some collector’s “holy grail” -- the one item they’re looking for to complete their collection. Even if the cabinet is in bad shape, someone probably has the parts and desire to rebuild it and restore it, if only they had the cabinet.

On the other hand, there are a bunch of not-so-classic cabinets, generic cabinets, and the aforementioned already-been-mutilated (converted) cabinets out there. Those are much better candidates for conversion to a home arcade cabinet than a nice classic cabinet. Yes, they usually mean more work for you than a cabinet that’s in nice condition. That’s a small price to pay for entering the classic arcade community. You don’t have to destroy a classic arcade cabinet to get the convenience of using an already constructed cabinet for your project.

If you must use a classic arcade cabinet for your home machine (which is, after all, totally within your rights as owner of the cabinet), please consider a few limitations. Use a PC2JAMMA conversion, so that the original woodwork and artwork are kept intact. Restore what needs TLC instead of slapping black paint on it and putting up a customized logo. If you’re going to remove parts, sell or give them away instead of junking them. That way, the classic cabinet still exists, and its parts can go to help another classic machine live again.

There’s room for both home arcade cabinet builders and classic arcade collectors along the road to arcade nirvana. Many arcade cabinet builders end up becoming collectors as well. MAME led me to discover using real arcade controls, which in turn led me to my current collection of seven real arcade cabinets, two pinball machines, and an air hockey table! Many arcade collectors also end up adding an emulation (MAME) cabinet to their collection as well. A little consideration for both camps goes a long way. Enjoy your new hobby, and thank you for considering the impact of your choices on the arcade collecting community!

The material in this post is copyrighted and may not be reproduced without permission

Edit - couldn't stand posting only part of it. That's the entire appendix B. It's only 1 or so pages so I don't think anyone will mind my posting it. (I wrote it but don't own the copyright, the publisher does)

[fixedpigs]

to quote arcademaze...

A MAME Machine is a gateway drug to the hard stuff--the real deal.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62439.msg620074#msg620074

[FrizzleFried]

to quote arcademaze...

A MAME Machine is a gateway drug to the hard stuff--the real deal.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62439.msg620074#msg620074

It was for me....damned MAME...

[solderguy1]

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear. 

I'm confused, do you mean the original poster who hasn't responded since page 3?

[Havok]

Meh, Mame 'em all, Klov be dammed!

 

[ahofle]

Other beautiful classic arcade cabinets will get converted into some mindless fighting game (with apologies to fighting game fans)

You truly are a Saint!!   

[FrizzleFried]

Right, which was a decent move, but this argument would have been over a long time ago if this guy would stop poking the bear. 

I'm confused, do you mean the original poster who hasn't responded since page 3?

I think he's referring to another gentleman.

[Tithis]

How would you guys feel about turning a StreetFighter 2 champion into a mame machine?
edit: never mind the one I'm looking at seems to be a conversion.

[Avrus]

How would you guys feel about turning a StreetFighter 2 champion into a mame machine?
edit: never mind the one I'm looking at seems to be a conversion.

A lot of the posters here are haters on the fighting cabs, but in my mind SF2 CE and MK2 are just as classic as Centipede and DK.  But if it's a conversion cab then it's a moot point.

[FrizzleFried]

How would you guys feel about turning a StreetFighter 2 champion into a mame machine?
edit: never mind the one I'm looking at seems to be a conversion.

A lot of the posters here are haters on the fighting cabs, but in my mind SF2 CE and MK2 are just as classic as Centipede and DK.  But if it's a conversion cab then it's a moot point.

Being that MOST SF2 cabs are conversions...go for it.  MK is classic... MK2 isn't (IMHO)... just like SF is classic (especially in the "arched" cabs)...where as SFII isn't (again IMHO).

[Zobeid]

I don't know if you guys are familiar with this outfit. . . .

http://arcadehollywood.net/401.html

Be sure and browse through their gallery!

I look at this with mixed feelings.  They have produced some really attractive MAME systems, and I can see why some people would shell out for them.  They are meeting a demand.  And one might argue, given the relatively small number of people who collect restored classic machines, some of these are destined to either be reborn as MAME cabinets or rot away in a barn somewhere.

On the other hand. . .  Nobody can say they need to sacrifice a classic game to build a MAME cab.  There are just too many other ways to do it.  I mean, for pity's sake, look here. . .

http://www.arcadeshop.com/cabinets/cabinets.htm

[DaveMMR]

On the other hand. . .  Nobody can say they need to sacrifice a classic game to build a MAME cab.  There are just too many other ways to do it.  I mean, for pity's sake, look here. . .

http://www.arcadeshop.com/cabinets/cabinets.htm

I browsed the link and I'm under the impression those are not classic cabs that are gutted, they are brand-new cut cases to match the dimensions/style of the Galaga/Ms. Pac Man Uprights.  I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like. 

[FrizzleFried]

Dave,

You missed the point.  ArcadeHollywood is gutting good cabs...he pointed to the arcadeshop link as an alternative to gutting classic arcade cabinets.

[DaveMMR]

Dave,

You missed the point.  ArcadeHollywood is gutting good cabs...he pointed to the arcadeshop link as an alternative to gutting classic arcade cabinets.

I reread the post and yes, I did miss the point.  Sorry.  I thought it was being offered as an example of gutted cabs. 

My apologies, Zobeid.  Thanks Fred.

[FrizzleFried]

Dave,

You missed the point.  ArcadeHollywood is gutting good cabs...he pointed to the arcadeshop link as an alternative to gutting classic arcade cabinets.

I reread the post and yes, I did miss the point.  Sorry.  I thought it was being offered as an example of gutted cabs. 

My apologies, Zobeid.  Thanks Fred.

Who's Fred?

 

[DaveMMR]

Dave,

You missed the point.  ArcadeHollywood is gutting good cabs...he pointed to the arcadeshop link as an alternative to gutting classic arcade cabinets.

I reread the post and yes, I did miss the point.  Sorry.  I thought it was being offered as an example of gutted cabs. 

My apologies, Zobeid.  Thanks Fred.

Who's Fred?

 

Yeah, I think I'll go have another now....   

[RayB]

Ugh. He mamed a Buck Rogers ! I have never in my years beyond its original release, ever seen one at auction, or for sale ANYWHERE. What a waste. I'm surprised the guy didn't mame the Aztek pinball.

[abzman2000]

    In an ideal world (by my standards at least) there would be a museum of every arcade game ever made (including conversion kits) and an unlimited supply of parts to keep them serviceable, but this is not even close to true.  some people here think that these things will be around forever but I am of the impression that as much as possible should be saved now since having the one remaining cabinet of some original game (horrible to play, or not) die, or get flooded or something else terrible is a very real possibility in the future, oh sure maybe 4 people have NOS bezels, but since no one saved original side art it could never be fully reconstructed. 

    This may seem like an exaggeration but it broke my heart to see the master copy of "death race" get destroyed, and all that remains is the coin door.  I disagree with some people that seem to think all that matters is the software, and that without the electronics and side art a cab is just a box, many of those "boxes" have serial numbers stamped into them, so when 472 is destroyed it does not exist anymore, and we are one step closer to them all being gone.  I may be a purist but unlike animals with several hundred left arcade games cannot be bred to produce a healthy thriving population again, no matter how hard you try. 

    There were only so many circuit boards made, and only so many vector monitors, so why does it not hurt the community more to see these few remaining treasures dwindling.  I prefer that cabinets like the "Smash TV" from Estonia and the like are preserved rather than parted out.  I think that from seeing all the hellcade pictures, and stories about barns full of games that there are enough "project cabs" and parts to go around (I may be wrong, but I'm generalizing) that people wanting to do their first MAME can start with something in bad-to-somewhat salvageable condition and that "I am giving away the parts" is not an acceptable excuse to MAME a very good quality cab. 

    My standards for salvagability are lower than some but I don't whine about every mod.  Even reversible mods to these games do same damage.  I don't object to a lot of the stuff I see on here  just because I wouldn't choose to MAME that particular quality cab, but I can see how mob mentality might become a problem.  as I was reading these threads I found myself outraged more than once, but not all for the same side.  Everyone has opinions and a select few on this board tend to express them in such a way, and in such passion that in a few hours I can see how much everyone here loves this hobby, but I can also see how all this passion can be directed in different directions. 

    There are some people here, I have observed that have such a passion for preserving this hobby for more people to enjoy; and others that have the same passion, but direct it at making what they have the best it can be.  When I first started reading the Galaxian MAME post I was against him doing it, but as the discussion dragged on I changed sides quite a bit.  Even so far as to feel that the sideart not sticking to the paint was him getting what he deserves for destroying such a classic cab.  I have no problem with it now, but I am the kind of person to let these things go and just think that it's not TOO big of a deal. 

I have very strong feelings about cabs like tron, galaga (there are a lot so it's hard to get worked up), star wars, Dragon's Lair (although daphne, the $20 usb Microsoft HD-DVD drive, and Dragon's Lair HD-DVD is tempting) and find some of the hellcade stuff revolting, these opinions are about a very few games.  Some people say that since there are so many that we don't have to worry, but with arcade owners and other people not in our "group" destroying games without a second thought we should take it upon ourselves to save what we have, see the example of the passenger pidgeon, people thought there would always be some left; and for the record, if someone was going to destroy an arcade cab (working or not) I would save it whether or not I had even heard of it.  Someone , somewhere would be able to use it, and if not I would trade/sell some of my better cabs so I could personally make something useful from whatever I was given (this assumes whole cabinet, gutted or not).   

In general I don't think cabinets should be destroyed without a REALLY GOOD reason since they will be anyway by people less caring than us, and that it's our duty to try to preserve some history. 

I missed a few things but I will supplement this when I remember them. 

remember, they are not around forever

[SavannahLion]

    This may seem like an exaggeration but it broke my heart to see the master copy of "death race" get destroyed, and all that remains is the coin door.  I disagree with some people that seem to think all that matters is the software, and that without the electronics and side art a cab is just a box, many of those "boxes" have serial numbers stamped into them, so when 472 is destroyed it does not exist anymore, and we are one step closer to them all being gone.  I may be a purist but unlike animals with several hundred left arcade games cannot be bred to produce a healthy thriving population again, no matter how hard you try.

That was my post. I regret two things about that auction, that I couldn't grab the coin door from the auction and that I didn't think to keep track of who the ---smurf--- was that destroyed the cab.

[patrickl]

Isn't it just because we love these things that it is so important to us. What if the generation that played in the arcades dies out? In 50 years or so, who will care about old arcade games still?

[Jack Burton]

The number of people in the hobby will slowly dwindle, but I don't think the games will ever stop being fun.  As long as MAME and emulation is around for people to play for free there will always be the notion of building  a cab or restoring one.

At some point people will have to reconstruct the components from scatch.

Who's with me building a vector monitor in 2020?