Neighborhood problem turns violent

[shardian]

Well I've had an interesting evening. As some of you know, I've had a problem in my neighborhood with an irresponsible dog owner the last few months. Anyways, it took a nasty turn this evening - of which I had no part.

I called my wife as I always do when I left work. After I get her on the phone and say hi, she shushes me and says there is something going on outside. It was like 70 here today, so she had all the windows open. Anyways, in the background, I hear a bunch of yelling The wife says something about "there being a crowd and the nurse lady is screaming at the lady who owns the dogs". She doesn't say anything for a minute, and then I hear an obvious gunshot over the phone, and the wife says "oh my god!" I start freakin out and yell at her to get her ass downstairs. People were screaming and I could hear it all.

Anyways, after she got downstairs she explained she didn't see everything, but that she saw a big dude she didn't know walk up to the big pit bull and shoot him in the head right in the middle of the road in front of the owner lady, her kids, and all the neighbors young kids. I figured the dog had attacked a kid and the man was defending the kid. When I got home, I talked to the neighbor across the street to see what all happened. From what he knew, a girl from around the neighborhood was walking her dog, and the pair of pitbull chased and harrassed her and her dog, and apparently the big dog attacked her dog. Then the girls mom came down. The neighbor wasn't sure, but from what the heard from the girls mom, it also might have bit the girl. Also, it apparently wasn't the first time it happened either. The mom was screaming at the owner lady that she had photos of where the dog had bit her daughter on a previous occasion. The shooter was apparently the girls father, and he decided to take matters into his own hands from frustration. When he pulled out the gun, the owner lady begged him not to do it in front of her kids (WTF were her kids still doing outside while she was getting screamed at, I have no clue). Then a shitload of cops showed up, and there were still about 6 police cruisers still in the area when I got home about 20 minutes after the incident.

The dude was taken into custody, probably on charges of brandishing (due to the kids and the crowd), and probably animal cruelty if I had to guess. I can totally understand the guys frustration, but the fact that noone was in immediate harms way when he came down and shot the dog, he will get in trouble. Eh, he'll probably sue the dog owner, and this definitely isn't the last of it. The main owner wasn't home when it happened and I doubt he'll just forget about the guy shooting his dog right in front of his family.I am just glad that noone was severely injured. I also feel kind of bad for the dog too. Still, it was his owners fault he was put in that position.

Anyways, I don't expect the dog family to stick around the neighborhood for much longer after this. I already knew they were only living there to fix and resell. If anything, I don't expect to see any more dogs in the area. This just goes to show how badly stray dogs can tear apart a neighborhood.

[ahofle]

  

[tommy]

You must live in a bad area, with some bad people who own some bad dogs, now I see how you can be so stupid as to think all dogs are bad, especially pits. Wisen up.

[mccoy178]

I guess we're ruling out it was Tommy's dog this time?  Oh wait, you said the main owner wasn't around yet.  This could get good!

[Singapura]

  At times like this I'm glad I live in the safest city in the world.

[shmokes]

Did Tommy just tell Shardian to "wisen up" based on his neighbors having bad dogs and his other neighbors shooting them?  It certainly seems that way.

If the guy is sued he will be liable for the face value of the dogs, but of more concern he will VERY likely lose an action against him for intentional infliction of emotional distress for shooting the dog in front of the owner and her children, and that could mean lots of money.  He won't be able to use a self-defense/defense of others defense unless someone was in imminent danger, which apparently was not the case here.  One has to wonder why they didn't use official channels once their kid was bit.  I understand that there's no leash-law there, but surely animal control will take care of dogs once they have attacked humans.   

[tommy]

Did Tommy just tell Shardian to "wisen up" based on his neighbors having bad dogs and his other neighbors shooting them?  It certainly seems that way.

Yes I did. This is how he bases his ideas on these dogs. He can try to ignore me all he likes, but it is not possible.

[ahofle]

One has to wonder why they didn't use official channels once their kid was bit.  I understand that there's no leash-law there, but surely animal control will take care of dogs once they have attacked humans.   

Didn't Sharidan say that the dog attacked his wife at some point before and animal control did nothing?  At least he and his family are safer now.

[tommy]

One has to wonder why they didn't use official channels once their kid was bit.  I understand that there's no leash-law there, but surely animal control will take care of dogs once they have attacked humans.   

Didn't Sharidan say that the dog attacked his wife at some point before and animal control did nothing?  At least he and his family are safer now.

When you have a bunch of dysfunctional people acting like idiots it would stand to reason they would have a bunch of animals who are dysfunctional and cannot control them self. You want to talk about dogs not having self control, I think you have to at least have people in control of them self before the animal can know how to act.

[danny_galaga]

At times like this I'm glad I live in the safest city in the world.

unfortunately its so safe you have no pron! high price to pay for preventing the occasional shooting 

[shardian]

Didn't Sharidan say that the dog attacked his wife at some point before and animal control did nothing?  At least he and his family are safer now.

Yeah, the dogs came after the wife and baby in our yard for no reason. She sprayed them with the hose until they hit the road.

I had called the police dept to see what I could do about it, and they wouldn't even talk to me.  Apparently, dogs have to severely injure someone before they'll do anything. Animal control grudginly came out after I got pissed with them. They have next to zero juristiction though, even to take dogs that HAVE attacked humans or other dogs.

Having tried to address the situation by "the high road", I can understand the guys frustrations. He really went about it the wrong way though.

[shardian]

When you have a bunch of dysfunctional people acting like idiots it would stand to reason they would have a bunch of animals who are dysfunctional and cannot control them self. You want to talk about dogs not having self control, I think you have to at least have people in control of them self before the animal can know how to act.

Just this once I'll humor you. I TOTALLY hold the dog's owner responsible for the whole affair. That dog would never had been in that situation if his owners gave a damn. I feel sorry for the dog, especially since he wasn't even doing anything when he got shot. Yes, owners are responsible for destroying the pit bull breedlines.

It was inevitable that something would eventually happen in the neighborhood dealing with these dogs. The owner was aware his dogs had aggressive tendencies. He was also lectured by an animal control officer and issued a warning. There is a public record of his dogs being lose and being a public nuisance.

Honestly, I think the dog owner should be charged with any injuries the dog did to the other dog and/or the girl. I do know that if you "sick" your dog on someone, you can be charged with assault with deadly weapon. That was part of a case I uncovered during my research a while back.
I doubt that conclusion can be drawn with loose dogs, but we'll let our legal expert ponder that. At the least the owner could be guilty of negligence I would think.

[ChadTower]

I understand that there's no leash-law there, but surely animal control will take care of dogs once they have attacked humans.   

They often will, but just as often it takes months or well over a year, all the while that dangerous animal is still around.

Where I grew up the animal will just get tossed into a pickup and driven off, then shot somewhere else.  Or if a message is intended they'll toss a poisoned steak at the dog and drive away while you're not around.  We had one dog that disappeared after a neighbor threatened to kill him... that dog was a behaviour problem and we weren't all that surprised.

They can sue the guy for intentional infliction of emotional distress, sure, but it will get countersued for multiple actual attacks, negligence, and possibly a similar emotional distress for "allowing terrorist animals to roam the streets".  I'd be shocked if it doesn't.

[shardian]

I understand that there's no leash-law there, but surely animal control will take care of dogs once they have attacked humans.   

They try to, but even then they don't have much authority to actually take the animal. There have been cases in which the owner has sued animal control for tresspassing and for stealing their dog. As I was told, if the dogs are on the owners property, their hands are tied. Cops would have to have a warrant to enter the premesis to allow animal control to pick up the dog.

In most cases, the owner realizes there is a problem and cooperates, but not all the time.

[CheffoJeffo]

Did Tommy just tell Shardian to "wisen up" based on his neighbors having bad dogs and his other neighbors shooting them?  It certainly seems that way.

Yes I did. This is how he bases his ideas on these dogs. He can try to ignore me all he likes, but it is not possible.

C'mon, tommy, you don't really believe that everything Shardian thinks about pitbulls are based solely on these problem dogs, do you ?

Do you actually read what people post or do you just roll the dice and choose between "Giants rock!", "Pitbulls Are Great", "Glass Is Cool" and "____ Is An Idiot" when you post ?

Use your head for something other than a shelf for that Giants helmet, will you ?

[shardian]

Did Tommy just tell Shardian to "wisen up" based on his neighbors having bad dogs and his other neighbors shooting them?  It certainly seems that way.

Yes I did. This is how he bases his ideas on these dogs. He can try to ignore me all he likes, but it is not possible.

C'mon, tommy, you don't really believe that everything Shardian thinks about pitbulls are based solely on these problem dogs, do you ?

Heh, I can pretty much guarantee you that I know more about pitbulls than Tommy does. Of course, I don't know why I'm touting that. Not like it would take much.

[AcidArmitage]

pitbulls are vicious and unpredictable.

but its just a dog and it was biting and attacking ---Cleveland steamer---...  

[ChadTower]

Jim always seems to know the best way to kill something, hurt someone, cheat someone, steal something... 

[RayB]

The animal just does what it does. It doesn't deserve to suffer just because its programming makes it dangerous. It belongs in a cage just like any other animal that can kill. NO LESSON is taught to the dog through your actions. Make the owners suffer for being asses.

(What is the f'n fascination for some people with owning pitbulls? Is it an ego thing? I don't care that they can be "nice" and "gentle", blah blah blah if there's a risk of danger. And they seem to be popular with the stupid and poor. WHY?!)

[shardian]

The animal just does what it does. It doesn't deserve to suffer just because its programming makes it dangerous. It belongs in a cage just like any other animal that can kill. NO LESSON is taught to the dog through your actions. Make the owners suffer for being asses.

(What is the f'n fascination for some people with owning pitbulls? Is it an ego thing? I don't care that they can be "nice" and "gentle", blah blah blah if there's a risk of danger. And they seem to be popular with the stupid and poor. WHY?!)

[/quote]

My problem was only maybe 25% related to pitbulls in general. It doesn't matter what type of dog you have, YOU DON"T ---smurfing--- LET IT RUN AROUND LOOSE IN A RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD!!!!

That is the main problem. If you can't keep your animal put up, and also walk it regularly on a leash, just don't have a dog. It just so happens that alot of Pit Bull owners are also lazy asses. Well over half of the people in my neighborhood have dogs. Guess what, you never see ANY of them out unchecked.

[Jouster]

Jim always seems to know the best way to kill something, hurt someone, cheat someone, steal something... 

Yes...he is the master for a reason.

Jouster

[tommy]

(What is the f'n fascination for some people with owning pitbulls?

Nothing is more fascinating about pits then any other dog to a dog lover. Why are you trying to make a distinction? Pit owners like their dogs as much as lab owners do.  The only reason you ask this is because there are so many people feeding into their bad rep and I'm always here defending it.

On the other hand, pits are the dog of choice to thugs and people who you wouldn't want owning a poodle let alone a bigger dog. People who like to see blood and death would have to pick a big dog with big teeth to do this. When a bad demographic gets it's hands on something. as it did pit bulls. it just gets associated in a negative way along with the group who own it. These are not true dog owners or even  respectable people.

[NIVO]

you guys can have your discussion just fine without methods of how to kill animals off. The thread will remain if you keep it civil.

[AcidArmitage]

Dog deserved it, but the circumstances were pretty ridiculous.

this is respected site for gaming. Describing ways to off animals is ridiculous to even post here. Refrain from doing so in the future.

oh well... just thought it was a better idea than shooting them in front of everybody and getting sued.

that and i am kinda ridiculous 

[shardian]

you guys can have your discussion just fine without methods of how to kill animals off. The thread will remain if you keep it civil.

Wow, I never knew PBJ cared so much.

While your at it, can you modify some of Tommy's posts too so it at least looks like he has a clue?

[shardian]

For the record, I never intended this thread to become a pitbull debate. That has already been discussed in another thread. Go back to that thread if you feel the need to run around in a circle like a retard some more.

[tommy]

On the other hand, pits are the dog of choice to thugs and people who you wouldn't want owning a poodle let alone a bigger dog. People who like to see blood and death would have to pick a big dog with big teeth to do this. When a bad demographic gets it's hands on something. as it did pit bulls. it just gets associated in a negative way along with the group who own it. These are not true dog owners or even  respectable people.

So, if negligent owners are drawn to certain types of breeds with the propensity to be vicious, why not ban the breed?

Sure, they'll move on to the next most vicious breed, but it least it'll be (a little) safer for the rest of us.

 

Ban the breed? Are you kidding? Was that a joke? So because people cannot do the right thing it becomes the dogs fault just for being alive and is in a bad situation?

[CCM]

For the record, I never intended this thread to become a pitbull debate. That has already been discussed in another thread. Go back to that thread if you feel the need to run around in a circle like a retard some more.

Apparently that's not gonna happen...

If memory serves there have been 2 threads in the last few months dealing with pit bulls and I really don't think we need a third! 

On topic, what a ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up situation in your neighborhood, man. 

[tommy]

If memory serves there have been 2 threads in the last few months dealing with pit bulls and I really don't think we need a third! 
 

Nobody asked you. 

[shardian]

I just talked to the wife and there was a cop there for almost two hours taking measurements/pictures and whatnot to map out the "crime scene". I get the feeling that if they take it this far, then the guy is in some deep ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[CCM]

If memory serves there have been 2 threads in the last few months dealing with pit bulls and I really don't think we need a third! 
 

Nobody asked you. 

that's never stopped you from posting your nonsense...

[CCM]

I just talked to the wife and there was a cop there for almost two hours taking measurements/pictures and whatnot to map out the "crime scene". I get the feeling that if they take it this far, then the guy is in some deep ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Yea I think firing a gun in the middle of the street in front of kids is kinda frowned upon.

[polaris]

Shardian
Glad to read you weren't involved in the violence but still very shocking to read.
Try not to let it get to you and i hope your wife is not too stressed by it all.

[MustardTent]

I've been following your story, and can't imagine how frustrated you must have felt.  This is a tragic way for it to end, though.  Well, hopefully you're coming to the end of this now.

If this is on the local news you gotta let us know where we can go to read about this (maybe a newspaper's or news affiliate's site).

[shardian]

Shardian
Glad to read you weren't involved in the violence but still very shocking to read.
Try not to let it get to you and i hope your wife is not too stressed by it all.

It is a bit unsettling to say the least. The wife is pretty tore up about, as she saw it happen. Senseless violence in real life is a whole lot different than senseless violence on tv. That is why I've never bought the "the video games made me do it" argument. But that is another story.

[shardian]

I've been following your story, and can't imagine how frustrated you must have felt.  This is a tragic way for it to end, though.  Well, hopefully you're coming to the end of this now.

If this is on the local news you gotta let us know where we can go to read about this (maybe a newspaper's or news affiliate's site).

I haven't seen anything on the local news websites yet. If I see anything, I'll pass it along.

[btp2k2]

When I was a kid, there was a similiar situation in my neighborhood...not with the guy shooting the dog...but with dumbass neighbors who owned a couple of very mean spirited pit bulls that regularly got loose.

One early morning I was walking to start my paper route and one of them came up and started barking and looking like he was ready to attack. I had my paper cart, which is a solid iron frame with wheels....thank god I hadn't picked up my papers yet....That dog lunged at me and I swung that cart and cracked him right in the skull. The owners lived one block over, and when I came home and told my parents what happened my dad went over there and we could hear him yelling at them from the next block. We called the cops and cause no one got hurt they said they couldn't do anything. Two weeks later the dogs got out again and bit a mail man and then killed our next door neighbor's dog. They took the dogs and put them to sleep.

I just don't understand why people keep these kind of dogs...

[shardian]

When I was a kid, there was a similiar situation in my neighborhood...not with the guy shooting the dog...but with dumbass neighbors who owned a couple of very mean spirited pit bulls that regularly got loose.

One early morning I was walking to start my paper route and one of them came up and started barking and looking like he was ready to attack. I had my paper cart, which is a solid iron frame with wheels....thank god I hadn't picked up my papers yet....That dog lunged at me and I swung that cart and cracked him right in the skull. The owners lived one block over, and when I came home and told my parents what happened my dad went over there and we could hear him yelling at them from the next block. We called the cops and cause no one got hurt they said they couldn't do anything. Two weeks later the dogs got out again and bit a mail man and then killed our next door neighbor's dog. They took the dogs and put them to sleep.

I just don't understand why people keep these kind of dogs...

The key part "noone was hurt so they couldn't do anything" is the reason vicious dog ordinances are being implemented all over the place. I don't think it is asking too much for owners of "vicious dogs" to follow a few safety precautions. It also gives police at least some kind of juristiction when these dogs get loose.

[missioncontrol]

please keep us updated on what happens with your neighbor...

and

If memory serves there have been 2 threads in the last few months dealing with pit bulls and I really don't think we need a third! 

agreed, we know most everybody's stance on pitbulls from the other thread... keep that debate to those threads instead of ---smurfing--- up this thread too....

[RayB]

Tommy, would you feel the same if people walked around with Tigers, or bears, or any other wild beast?  Why so protective just because a particular animal falls into the "dog" category?

[DrewKaree]

(What is the f'n fascination for some people with owning pitbulls?

Nothing is more fascinating about pits then any other dog to a dog lover. Why are you trying to make a distinction?

 

Let's take a look, shall we?

pits are the dog of choice to thugs and people who you wouldn't want owning a poodle let alone a bigger dog. People who like to see blood and death would have to pick a big dog with big teeth to do this.

Not only are you NOT so stupid that you don't get WHY people "make distinctions", you are even capable of making the distinction yourself.

Why do you ACT stupid, when you clearly understand the point?

Was it just your knee-jerk reaction that caused you to misread "some people" as "ALL people"?

Try this next time.  Read what was posted.  Count to eleventy brazillion.  Read what was posted again.  Write down what you think was said.  Read what was posted again, and highlight words that lead you to believe you got the point.  Look at your interpretation of what was said, and see if any of the highlighted words match what your interpretation is.

You clearly haven't been able to match the highlighted words with what you believe has been said.

Not all dog owners suck.  The dog owners that are tops on the "SUCK!" column are the ones who mistreat their animals.  A close second are the dog owners that mischaracterize the point of people because they can't separate themselves in order to make sense of a discussion about the animals they clearly have discombobulated.

[DrewKaree]

Tommy, would you feel the same if people walked around with Tigers, or bears, or any other wild beast?  Why so protective just because a particular animal falls into the "dog" category?

If Tommy owned a tiger, bear, or any other wild beast, he certainly would. 

As an aside, and since this thread will get crapped up with pit bull talk anyway and I can't be bothered to find those threads ,  if I have to jump through hoops just to own a lethal weapon to protect my family, then I see no problem with identical hoops being enacted for "dangerous animals".  In my state, there are such hoops for tigers/whatnot.  I'm for consistency.  Stick your nose in my business about a gun, then stick your nose in my business about a potentially lethal animal. 

If noses aren't put into my business about a potentially lethal animal, then take them out of my business about a potentially lethal object I choose to own.  Then I'll take threats against my family and deal with them in a manner that police and animal control are incapable of doing. 

Poor decision making by the shooter, but not entirely.  He simply made a choice for a potentially lethal animal owner who was apathetic towards such a decision or felt like Tommy, that "they could control the animal"

[AcidArmitage]

a while back on my street, 2 pitbulls started chasing a jogger and luckily a passerby in a car opened the door and let him in ( i wouldve ran over the ---daisies---). The owner of the dogs had to move because the 2 pitbulls had bitten someone before. What did he get this time? a $500 dollar fine. its crap.


Even if they ban the breed (Miami cant have pitbulls), They just declare that the dog is a mix... its crap. crap crap crap.

[mpm32]

Here's the thing, if you have a large dog and you know in your heart that it has the tendency to bite, keeping it around is like having loaded gun laying around.

My wife and I got an Akita.  Had him from a puppy.  We researched the breed and learned their characteristics.  They rarely bark, and will give little warning if they are going to attack.  Not good if the dog is 120 lbs with a very powerful jaw.

Knowing this we took him to trainers and obedience school right from the beginning.  We knew having a dog like this was a big responsibility.

He turned out to be a great dog until he was around 5 years old.

He started snapping and became really aggressive to me and my wife.  Then he knocked my mother down and looked like he was going to bite her face. (Although she probably deserved it.  )

Around this time we were thinking of having kids, and there were kids in the neighborhood.  One day the little girl from next door came over to sell cookies or something and the dog almost got out and got her.  I said to her father that we think we might have to put him down.

We called the Akita rescue group in NJ to see if there was anything we could do.  They asked us the breeders name, looked them up and told us that almost every dog from that breeder had problems and had to be put down.  Crappy dirtbag breeder.

When the neighbor told his wife that we were going to put him down, she came over and being an devout animal lover gave me the card of an obedience trainer and said we didn't have to put him down.

Boy was I pissed, it wasn't like we hadn't tried everything we could.  Then I said, if he got out and attacked your kids, it would be your lawyers card you would be handing me instead of this card.

If he ever did get out and hurt someone I would not be able to live with myself since I knew he had the propensity to bite.

So, I took him and had him put down.  One of the hardest things I had to do.

People need to take responsibility for their animals even if that means doing what's hard.

[lharles]

Here's the thing, if you have a large dog and you know in your heart that it has the tendency to bite, keeping it around is like having loaded gun laying around.

My wife and I got an Akita.  Had him from a puppy.  We researched the breed and learned their characteristics.  They rarely bark, and will give little warning if they are going to attack.  Not good if the dog is 120 lbs with a very powerful jaw.

Knowing this we took him to trainers and obedience school right from the beginning.  We knew having a dog like this was a big responsibility.

He turned out to be a great dog until he was around 5 years old.

He started snapping and became really aggressive to me and my wife.  Then he knocked my mother down and looked like he was going to bite her face. (Although she probably deserved it.  )

Around this time we were thinking of having kids, and there were kids in the neighborhood.  One day the little girl from next door came over to sell cookies or something and the dog almost got out and got her.  I said to her father that we think we might have to put him down.

We called the Akita rescue group in NJ to see if there was anything we could do.  They asked us the breeders name, looked them up and told us that almost every dog from that breeder had problems and had to be put down.  Crappy dirtbag breeder.

When the neighbor told his wife that we were going to put him down, she came over and being an devout animal lover gave me the card of an obedience trainer and said we didn't have to put him down.

Boy was I pissed, it wasn't like we hadn't tried everything we could.  Then I said, if he got out and attacked your kids, it would be your lawyers card you would be handing me instead of this card.

If he ever did get out and hurt someone I would not be able to live with myself since I knew he had the propensity to bite.

So, I took him and had him put down.  One of the hardest things I had to do.

People need to take responsibility for their animals even if that means doing what's hard.

I logged in after reading what you wrote just to say thanks for the story.  You painted a nice picture textually and made a point at the same time.  Good stuff. 

[shardian]

Here's the thing, if you have a large dog and you know in your heart that it has the tendency to bite, keeping it around is like having loaded gun laying around.

My wife and I got an Akita.  Had him from a puppy.  We researched the breed and learned their characteristics.  They rarely bark, and will give little warning if they are going to attack.  Not good if the dog is 120 lbs with a very powerful jaw.

Knowing this we took him to trainers and obedience school right from the beginning.  We knew having a dog like this was a big responsibility.

He turned out to be a great dog until he was around 5 years old.

He started snapping and became really aggressive to me and my wife.  Then he knocked my mother down and looked like he was going to bite her face. (Although she probably deserved it.  )

Around this time we were thinking of having kids, and there were kids in the neighborhood.  One day the little girl from next door came over to sell cookies or something and the dog almost got out and got her.  I said to her father that we think we might have to put him down.

We called the Akita rescue group in NJ to see if there was anything we could do.  They asked us the breeders name, looked them up and told us that almost every dog from that breeder had problems and had to be put down.  Crappy dirtbag breeder.

When the neighbor told his wife that we were going to put him down, she came over and being an devout animal lover gave me the card of an obedience trainer and said we didn't have to put him down.

Boy was I pissed, it wasn't like we hadn't tried everything we could.  Then I said, if he got out and attacked your kids, it would be your lawyers card you would be handing me instead of this card.

If he ever did get out and hurt someone I would not be able to live with myself since I knew he had the propensity to bite.

So, I took him and had him put down.  One of the hardest things I had to do.

People need to take responsibility for their animals even if that means doing what's hard.

Kudo's to you. Being a dog owner means alot more than filling a bowl with food and scooping poop. I bet that was very hard, but there really isn't much you can do for a dog with BRED social characteristics.

[tommy]

pits are the dog of choice to thugs and people who you wouldn't want owning a poodle let alone a bigger dog. People who like to see blood and death would have to pick a big dog with big teeth to do this.

Not only are you NOT so stupid that you don't get WHY people "make distinctions", you are even capable of making the distinction yourself.

Why do you ACT stupid, when you clearly understand the point?

Only the wrong people make this distinction when they choose to own these dogs, the people who are up to no good or are oblivious cause animals to attack.

There are 3 types of dog owners. One type is the regular owner who does not enforce any rules or boundaries with their animal and is really not in control of that situation and really does not know what it did wrong and was not looking for the dog to cause harm but it does anyway just by the owner not putting in enough time until the dog happens to bite someone, these people think the dog is born and nothing more is needed to ensure the dog is raised properly other than feeding it.

The second type of dog owner is not a dog owner at all, but is a person looking to make money off these dogs and only wants to see bad things happen and breed dogs to fight dogs. These dogs get loose and attack and bite anything it comes in contact with no matter what.

The third owner is a responsible person who knows about the bad rep and possible bad habits that were bread into the dog and take every precaution necessary to make sure the worst in that dog will never come to light by being strong with the dog, making sure the dog knows who is in control and giving it love. This works, I am proof of it and would put my life down in front of this dog and he would for me.

It is possible to make this sort of distinction about these dogs based of the owner of the dog, but real dog lovers and owners are not the ones letting these dogs get out of control and are NOT the ones who's dogs are attacking people. These people should not have to take the blame and be lumped in with the other two dog owner types.

With all that said, these rules and 3 dog owner types does not only apply to pit bulls but applies to any dog or animal a person could own. This could even apply to kids in some ways.

[shardian]

Tommy, you are not on trial here. This is a specific case that is dealing with one of those guys who gives pit owners like you a bad name. If you are so worried about YOUR rep, why don't you join some action group that works to get these dogs out of the hands of bad owners, shuts down bad breeders, outs dog righting rings, etc. Sitting at your pc and ranting "my dog is good, so all of them are good, see!" doesn't accomplish anything.

[tommy]

I'm not defending myself  but I want you all to understand what is going on and it is more than meets the eye at first look.

[patrickl]

With all that said, these rules and 3 dog owner types does not only apply to pit bulls but applies to any dog or animal a person could own. This could even apply to kids in some ways.

Yet the distinction still is that if a pit bull goes out of control that it maims or kills. If a poodle gets out of control it might put a tear in someones pants.

It's just like saying it's fine to drive 150mph on the highway since race car drivers can do this too. Obviously you don't solve this by making people drive slower you solve this by ... ehm yeah what?

[saint]

Shardian - your thread on a specific incident. Do you want me to clean out all the pro/con pit-bull stuff or leave it?

[tommy]

I'm done with the pit bull stuff if they are.

[shardian]

Shardian - your thread on a specific incident. Do you want me to clean out all the pro/con pit-bull stuff or leave it?

Can you just get rid of Tommy's posts? It would make it much more easy to ignore him.

Nah, it's okay as is. I'd prefer the pro-con pit stuff to end though.

[shardian]

Nah, it's okay as is. I'd prefer the pro-con pit stuff to end though.

No offense, but why exactly did you start this thread if that wasn't what you wanted to happen?

Thanks to Tommy, this has turned into the pit bull page, and you post a story about your neighbor committing vigilante justice on a pitbull?

Don't act surprised when things happen as everyone expects them to.   

I was just posting an incident that was relevant to a previous incident I had posted about. That was personal to me. Thought you all might find it interesting.

[ChadTower]

I have the perfect compromise.  People can have their pit bulls and sharidan's family can be completely safe from them.  The dogs can even roam freely without causing fear.

Put them in an Atlasphere!

[tommy]

Chad, you really should stop driving your car, one day by no fault of your own some idiot who does not know what they are doing is going to crash into you and it's too dangerous to risk.

[CCM]

Chad, you really should stop driving your car, one day by no fault of your own some idiot who does not know what they are doing is going to crash into you and it's too dangerous to risk.

Wow, you really are making less sense with every post....   

[tommy]

It was a reference to owning a dog and it's possible dangers and the dangers to driving a car. Either you stop both or you get rid of the idiots who cause the problems.

[ChadTower]

It was a reference to owning a dog and it's possible dangers and the dangers to driving a car. Either you stop both or you get rid of the idiots who cause the problems.

Can we put tommy in an Atlasphere?  There is a really steep hill probably 50 stories high not far from my house.

[tommy]

It was a reference to owning a dog and it's possible dangers and the dangers to driving a car. Either you stop both or you get rid of the idiots who cause the problems.

Can we put tommy in an Atlasphere?

That will work for me, put me somewhere where I don't have to deal with stupid people with stupid ideas.

[ChadTower]

If tommy ideates in the woods, but no one is there to hear him, was his idea still dumb?

[CCM]

It was a reference to owning a dog and it's possible dangers and the dangers to driving a car. Either you stop both or you get rid of the idiots who cause the problems.

Can we put tommy in an Atlasphere?

That will work for me, put me somewhere where I don't have to deal with stupid people with stupid ideas.

That wouldn't work for you,  you would still have to deal with yourself.

[patrickl]

Tommy always makes me think of the book "Flowers for Algernon".

[ChadTower]

Tommy always makes me think of the book "Flowers for Algernon".

 

[shardian]

Tommy always makes me think of the book "Flowers for Algernon".

I highly doubt Tommy knows that one, but if he did he would say "Yeah, but I'm only like the guy in the middle of the book".

[shardian]

Chad, you really should stop driving your car, one day by no fault of your own some idiot who does not know what they are doing is going to crash into you and it's too dangerous to risk.

As always, Tommy has missed the point. I'll fix it for you.

Chad, go take your car, perch it on that hill, put it in neutral, give it a shove then turn your back on it and don't worry where it goes from there.

Now you have a decent analogy of what the problem is.

[CCM]

Tommy always makes me think of the book "Flowers for Algernon".

I highly doubt Tommy knows that one, but if he did he would say "Yeah, but I'm only like the guy in the middle of the book".

 

[ChadTower]

All right!  I guess my car has free will!  Sweet! 

[tommy]

The idiot is in control of the other car, as is the idiot letting his dog run wild.

[shardian]

The idiot is in control of the other car, as is the idiot letting his dog run wild.

No, the idiot made the choice to let his "car" run wild. Whatever happens with the "car" outside his comfy house is of no concern to him...until someone comes up with a gun after his "car" ran into his daughter and her dog.

Ya dig?

[CCM]

The idiot is in control of the other car, as is the idiot letting his dog run wild.

Don't be so hard on yourself, Charlie.

[tommy]

You guys are impossible, you don't agree with a person and that's fine, I guess, but then you just act like a bunch of fools in an attempt to make jokes.

[ChadTower]

We don't make jokes, we let them run loose around the neighborhood and don't care who they attack.

[tommy]

We don't make jokes, we let them run loose around the neighborhood and don't care who they attack.

That's not very responsible. 

[Jouster]

Here's the thing, if you have a large dog and you know in your heart that it has the tendency to bite, keeping it around is like having loaded gun laying around...

WTF...aren't you supposed to be posting in the cheesecake thread??  Get back to work!

Jouster

[Jdurg]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that if aggressiveness and violent attacks are in the DNA of a creature, all the training in the world means nothing if the dog becomes ill or injured.  If a chihuhua(sp?) and a pitbull are both given the same obedience training and same domination routines by a competant owner, yet both dogs manage to come down with a cancer that causes them pain but shows no other outward symptoms, the pitbull is genetically more likely to lash out with a vicious attack than the chihuhua.  No training in the world can prevent that.

Is that likely to happen?  I can't tell since I don't know the cancer/illness rate in canines.  I'm just stating that training is very important and crucial to a well-behaved dog, but it won't remove what genetics has already put into place.

[tommy]

I can agree with most of that, but who is not going to go crazy with  brain cancer.   

[mpm32]

WTF...aren't you supposed to be posting in the cheesecake thread??  Get back to work!

Jouster

Oops, sorry back to the thread where I belong.   

[DrewKaree]

I'm not defending myself  but I want you all to understand what is going on and it is more than meets the eye at first look.

Incorrect.  You in fact ARE defending yourself.  You understand EVERYTHING about this, yet can't understand your inability to separate your SELF from the discussion and are clearly acting as if you're needing to defend yourself.  You're unable to see the argument clearly and as such, seem incapable of getting your actual point across WITHOUT it seeming as if you're doing exactly what Shardian stated.

Look for yourself.  You're all the proof you need:

This works, I am proof of it and would put my life down in front of this dog and he would for me.

You need to figure out some way to take SEVERAL steps back and look at the situation and reassess why you are seemingly "attacked" and your knee-jerk reaction to it.

The idiot is in control of the other car, as is the idiot letting his dog run wild.

Maybe channeling Ziaouche can help you realize the problem with your own argument

 

[tommy]

It's funny to see what you choose to quote from me and how you make it work for you.

I am constantly under attack because of my pit bull beliefs and I think you are not capable of even knowing what the hell you're talking about as a part-timer here these days.

If people want to continually attack pits I will be here continually defending them. End of story.

So many people here want to bad mouth these dogs at every turn and I'm not defending myself, I truly want others to see another point of view to break the habit of people hearing bad stories about these dogs and stop this crazy idea that they are all bad from going any further. All people hear are stories of this dog did this and that dog did that but maybe, just maybe if they can get an idea of the kind of person who may have owned these dogs that did this or that people may be able to put two and two together and see it was not really the dogs fault.

[MikeQ]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.


http://www.local6.com/news/15014272/detail.html

[tommy]

That means nothing to me, mike. I can find stories where a kid got ran over by a car and post it here. I can find a story of where a kid got shot because his drug dealing father was into stuff that was not safe for his family.

What is your point in making a special trip here to post a pt bull story over any other?


Things happen in life that we cannot help, it's sad but true.

[MikeQ]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Not owning a pit bull can solve the problem.  This isn't a problem that can't be helped.

[tommy]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

[billf]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

MikeQ posts a link to a story about the very topic this thread is covering and he's the "farking idiot"?   

[MikeQ]

You might want to check your home owners liability policy too.  In Florida most policies don't cover the pit bull breed specifically.  If your dog attacks someone your liability insurance will not cover the attack.  Any medical or legal case will come directly out of your pocket.

Just some helpful advice.

[tommy]

This was a thread about a pit bull biting people in the neighborhood.  This just happened a couple miles from me in Titusville. 

Do I need to clear post with you before sharing?

BTW, your pit bull is going to kill you in your sleep one day.  They are devil animals.  The state of Florida is drafting legislation to ban them.

Yes, next time clear your post with me so you do not look like a farking idiot.

Somehow I have a feeling you will die of stupidity long before I die of anything else.

MikeQ posts a link to a story about the very topic this thread is covering and he's the "farking idiot"?   

Yes he is an idiot. He did not read and comprehend the type of person who owns dogs who hurt others and did not bother to make a distinction between a person who is in control of their dog and a person who can care less about his dog hurting someone. He was attempting to just be an ass and pile on another story contributing to the bad-rep.

You might want to check your home owners liability policy too.  In Florida most policies don't cover the pit bull breed specifically.  If your dog attacks someone your liability insurance will not cover the attack.  Any medical or legal case will come directly out of your pocket.

Just some helpful advice.

You are nothing but a fool to think my dog would be anymore inclined to hurt me as your "any dog breed here" would hurt you or your family.

[CCM]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/09/2135180.htm

http://wjz.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626475.html

http://cbs13.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626100.html

http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_009084425.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=5878108

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1199768741309150.xml&coll=5

[tommy]

You're a bastard CCM. I can say one thing, if there is one person who deserves to be eaten alive by a pit bull it is you.

[CCM]

    

[tommy]

 

[billf]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/09/2135180.htm

http://wjz.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626475.html

http://cbs13.com/local/pit.bull.attack.2.626100.html

http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_009084425.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=5878108

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1199768741309150.xml&coll=5

Holy crap, all of those stories are dated within the last couple of days.

[MikeQ]

I'm sure tommy is familiar with the Clifton dog bite report.  It actually proves that statistically Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have a much higher propensity to attack and a far higher likelyhood to kill their victim.

It also covers that owner/training issue.  Most attacks were not in character with animal normal behavior and are almost always on a family member.   The attacks are often by dogs who have never shown aggression and lived with a caring family for many years.

I read up on this matter when my municipality was challenging a state statute the prohibits banning of certain breeds.  It is how I learned about the current legislation that is being drafted to reverse Statute 767.14 and allowing the banning of certain breeds.


Anyway, I didn't mean for my post to derail this thread into a "Pitbulls are a spawn of the devil".  I was simply posting to show Sharidan that while this incident was unfortunate, it could have ended in an even more unfortunate situation.  No dogs life is worth more than a child's.

[tommy]

It actually proves that statistically Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have a much higher propensity to attack and a far higher likelyhood to kill their victim.

Yes, I agree. In the wrong hands a gun can be very dangerous.

[MikeQ]

Well, the report disputes that.  It shows that even responsibly owned pit bulls just "snap".   One of the real issues here is that the breed is a well designed killing machine.  They can kill very effectively.  When a Labrador has a bad day and bites you, you get a puncture wound in your hand.  When a pit bull has a bad day, they instinctively go for the face or throat.  If your lucky you live.

Sometimes they do worse:

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49447

[tommy]

Can you please explain why my pit has not shown ANY aggression for almost 8 years now and has never bitten anyone or even slightly acted like he wanted to bite anyone?

I even recently got another pit going on two years and the same holds true.

Don't give me that garbage that it will still happen or some garbage like that. It's just not true. We are talking about a dog here, not some computer program that can crash at random with no reason and is not explainable.

What you hear abut these dogs is just not true. If I didn't tell you my dog was a pit you would not be able to tell the difference in the dog at all.

[MikeQ]

I'm not saying your dog will for sure.  However, it is the case in almost all attacks on family members that the dog had never been aggressive before. 

Anyway, we've derailed this thread enough.

[tommy]

I'm not saying your dog will for sure.  However, it is the case in almost all attacks on family members that the dog had never been aggressive before. 

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

How can a good person NOT have an good effect on a dog, it is not possible. Take the time and make it happen.

[MikeQ]

Look at your own argument though.  You've had him for 8 years and not attack.  There are many stories just like yours where people have raised a Pit Bull from a puppy and then it kills a child in the home.  Again, the first sign of aggression ever was the killing of the child.  The dog had lived in the home for many many years with no aggression until he killed the child.  This Titusville attack, the child had lived with the dog for 4 years.

If the dog wasn't raised right, he wouldn't have waited 8 years to attack.  He would have attacked much earlier. 

I have a 13 year old dog and a 16 year old dog who recently died.  Both have nipped me for no apparent reason.  They are small dogs so a nip just draws some blood on a finger.  These dogs have been with my wife and I since we were first married.  They were are first children.  They have been family members for longer than my children have been.  They have always been well trained and treated, yet they nip.  They nipped me doing things with them that I had done 1000's of times (playing, taking things away).  Yet on  2 occasions for whatever reason they decided to bite.  With a less aggressive breed this isn't a problem.  With a pit bull it's like spinning the chamber on a gun and putting to your head.  Like I said, (and look at the incident reports) they go for the throat and face, instinctively.  Most predatory animals do.

The problem is that you don't even know what it is that is going to set them off.  No amount of training or uber owner skills are going to help you.  It might not even be something you did.  It might be that there is a dog in heat 5 houses down the street and you aren't even aware.

[tommy]

I don't know what to tell you, if your dogs are "nipping"you you need to curb that behaviour a long time ago and the way you sound as if you accept it and it is natural for the dogs to be doing this. This not a dog owner doing the right thing and is surly not supporting your stance.

[tommy]

Whatever you have to say next, mike. It has been good talking to you and for once on this board it was enjoyable talking to a person who is rational and is calm when debating a topic, and I applaud you.

[ChadTower]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.

That means nothing to me, mike.

 

[tommy]

A pit bull (family pet) ripped the throat out of a 4 year old today in Titusville.

That means nothing to me, mike.

 

Come on now. Is that what I really meant? Don't try that here.

[AtomSmasher]

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

It seems that you agree (without actually admitting that you agree) that they are naturally more aggressive and dangerous then other breeds of dogs since they require a very specific type of training for them to be properly domesticated.  Judging by the number of pitbull attacks, it seems its a type of training that few pitbull owner know how to do properly (or at all, in many cases).  You keep talking about how cars kill people, but you have to pass a test to prove you are able to drive before you can legally drive a car.  Don't you think it makes sense that a person should have to take a test (or pass a class or something) to make sure they know the proper way to raise a pitbull before they are allowed to own one?

[tommy]

Never been aggressive before does not mean the dog was raised right and was taught to respect people and have limits and boundaries. This is what I'm trying to get people to understand. The owners of these dogs are not doing the right thing with them and are not making it clear to the dog that the person is the master and is in control and they need to obey, these people just let the dog grow up with no guidance and one day it challenges the person and tries to bite. It's not the dogs fault it was not put in it's place and told it should be second to a human.

You gotta take time with these dogs and MAKE them understand what you want, trust me, they will get the picture and know their place. These dogs are not toys we are talking about, take the time to make your stance known to them and they will respect it.

I've done it for Christs sake, I do not have the worlds most special pits that are the only ones on earth.

It seems that you agree (without actually admitting that you agree) that they are naturally more aggressive and dangerous then other breeds of dogs since they require a very specific type of training for them to be properly domesticated.  Judging by the number of pitbull attacks, it seems its a type of training that few pitbull owner know how to do properly (or at all, in many cases).  You keep talking about how cars kill people, but you have to pass a test to prove you are able to drive before you can legally drive a car.  Don't you think it makes sense that a person should have to take a test (or pass a class or something) to make sure they know the proper way to raise a pitbull before they are allowed to own one?

Yes!!

[MikeQ]

I don't know what to tell you, if your dogs are "nipping"you you need to curb that behaviour a long time ago and the way you sound as if you accept it and it is natural for the dogs to be doing this. This not a dog owner doing the right thing and is surly not supporting your stance.

Once in 16 years for the oldest dog and once in 13 years for the younger dog.  This isn't a regular occurrence.  We surmised later with the 16 year old it was because she was getting old and was having pain from arthritis.  Simply picking her up caused her to nip me.  She was having an instinctive reaction to pain that she perceived me as causing.  I could not have know this or done anything different.  Once the arthritis worsened it became obvious because she was visibly stiff.  Our vet put her on NSAIDS and she did well until she died from heart failure a year later.  

My younger dog nipped me when he and I were playing around.  He either got excited, scared, or maybe twisted in a way that caused him pain.  I don't know.  I'd played with him like this 1000's of times and never had an incident.  

The point is that no owner can know what a dog is thinking and how he is going to react to every situation.  You said it yourself, they aren't a computer program.  All dogs can be loving and playful but they are also unpredictable .  Anyone who thinks they can know what the dog is thinking and predict there behavior is just in denial.  I just hope for you sake that if your dog ever does have a bad moment, he doesn't kill or seriously injure anyone.  Good Luck.

[tommy]

If a dog is old or in pain I have no problem agreeing the dog will bite you. This is not the case in these dog bites we are talking about.

[AtomSmasher]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

[MikeQ]

How do we know that wasn't a factor in some of these attacks?  Also, me playing with my other dog was not a case of him being old.  He's 13 now but he nipped me years ago.   He wasn't a puppy but he wasn't old either.

[tommy]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

Thank you. That is good enough for me to concede in this crowed at this point. At least it's a start.

[MikeQ]

I agree that pitbulls are much more likely to "snap" and attack someone from out of nowhere then other breeds of dogs and that very few people who currently own pitbulls should be allowed to keep them, but I also believe that the percentage of them suddenly attacking someone can be greatly (but not totally) reduced with the proper training and upbringing.

One thing to consider is that a lot of people own dogs and are irresponsible with them.  If Pit Bull attacks were truly solely because of irresponsible owners the number of attacks by Pit Bulls vs other big breeds would be about the same.  The "bad element" of people generally don't go out and buy pure bread dogs either.  If it all came down to irresponsible owners, then the average mutt would be the "most hated dog" and not the Pit Bull.
Also, the whole reason the "bad element" of people own Pit Bulls is because of the vicious nature.  The dog doesn't have a vicious nature because he is owned by the "bad element".  The bad element encourages the vicious behavior but it is already there.  It is not much different than tigers who have been trained their whole life and one day attack the trainer.  They are inherently dangerous and have the potential to kill.  No amount of training is going to change that, only better the odds that it won't happen.

[tommy]

I also wanted to say sorry for calling you an idiot, mike. I lumped you in with others on this board and clearly you should not be.

[MikeQ]

No problem.  Thanks for the conversation.

[AtomSmasher]

They are inherently dangerous and have the potential to kill.  No amount of training is going to change that, only better the odds that it won't happen.

Exactly. 

[tommy]

Aren't you gonna say sorry for saying my dog is gonna kill me one day? 

[CheffoJeffo]

I lumped you in with others on this board and clearly you should not be.

That happens ... and you still shouldn't lump me in with the troublemakers ... 

[saint]

You're a bastard CCM.

That would be the proverbial straw.

[shardian]

You shouldn't tick off Saint Tommy. I happened upon this footage of what he did to the last guy who ticked him off...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8[/youtube]

[mpm32]

Don't give me that garbage that it will still happen or some garbage like that. It's just not true. We are talking about a dog here, not some computer program that can crash at random with no reason and is not explainable.

Tommy, did you read my story?  We had my Akita for 5 years before he showed any signs of aggression.

It can happen and it has happened.

BTW I have also known many pits that were very sweet.  Although when playing with them I wouldn't put my face near theirs.  Just like a tiger trainer has a very healthy respect for the tigers in his care, even if they've never bitten him before or have shown no signs previously.  The trainer should never forget that they are dealing with a tiger.


Ha, I sounded like Confucius.

[ChadTower]

And all of that brings us back to the question I keep asking over and over and over again:

How do you preemptively ban the bad owners without banning the dogs entirely?

Or do people find allowing such attacks acceptable with "proper punishment for the owner" after the fact?

[polaris]

shardian , that vid was funny.


maybe you can tell us any updates on this, now we can have a rational discussion in here without someone thinking its about them.

[shardian]

Well, I wrote a letter to the local paper, asking if they had heard of the story, and gave them some a general overview to get them interested. Basically, I could care less about the details of the story being covered - they are really irrelevant to the real issue. I voiced my opinion that there needs to be a leash law in our county, and that animal control and the sheriff's office need to get off their asses and do something proactive before we have a repeat of what happened to the 2 year old down in Huntington in our area.

It is my hope that if the news agencies have something to grab onto, that they can run with it like they are so good at doing.

I got a response, but unfortunately my spam filter is acting up and ate it...well technically I deleted it. 
The yahoo spam filter has been getting more than a few real emails lately, so I have to scan it every day now - kinda defeats the point of a spam filter huh? Anyways, I was looking down thru there and saw an email from some random name that looked just like all the other generated name, but the subject was "Pit Bull Shooting", no reply markings or anything. I thought to myself, "damn those spammers are getting good", then hit the empty junk button. As soon as I hit it, I realized what I did.

Anyways, I have to write them back and tell them I didn't get it.

[patrickl]

And all of that brings us back to the question I keep asking over and over and over again:

How do you preemptively ban the bad owners without banning the dogs entirely?

What's wrong with banning pit bulls? Why do they ban Puma's as pets? Puma's are just as docile as a regular house cat.

In more than half the cases where a pit maimed or killed a person the dog showed no aggressive behavior before it's attack. The dog might be sick, bumbed out because of noisy house renovations, annoying kids or whatever and in a reflex it might suddenly attack. Just like any dog might (or other dogs might do so even more often). The point is that IF they bite they maime or kill. Mostly without warning. These dogs are just too dangerous to keep in public.

[ChadTower]

Well, the thing is, in our country we have these notions of "innocent until proven guilty" and "personal liberty" and "err on the side of letting a guilty man go free" so the pitbull argument is kinda tough.

Since when do Constitutional protections apply to dogs?  Personal liberty I can buy as a point - the liberty to own a pit bull.  I just don't see the others as having anything to do with an animal.

Those lines exist for other dangerous animals already, right?  How many people do you know that own a tiger or a wolverine?  If it was going to be anyplace, it would be in Texas, with all that personal freedom and space for ranching, yes? 

[FrizzleFried]

I've never owned a Bull Terrier...but I've known a few.  Most were real sweet dogs...a couple were ---uvulas---.  It's not the dog but the owner.  Yes,  more thugs and asshats are drawn to Bull Terriers for some reason,  hence the reason why so many are in the spotlight for bing "bad dogs"...

Bad owner = bad dog regardless of the breed.

[patrickl]

Bad owner = bad dog regardless of the breed.

Still,  bad dog+devastating bite  is worse than bad dog+itsy bitsy bite.   It's the damage that a pitbul can do that makes it unfit for keeping as a pet. Just like Tigers, Lions and Puma's.

[FrizzleFried]

Bad owner = bad dog regardless of the breed.

Still,  bad dog+devastating bite  is worse than bad dog+itsy bitsy bite.   It's the damage that a pitbul can do that makes it unfit for keeping as a pet. Just like Tigers, Lions and Puma's.

I am pretty sure there are other breeds that have as destructive of a bite.  Do you propose we ban all breeds with a bad bite?  Rotts?  Boxers?  Labs?  Golden Retrievers?  Mastiffs?   The list goes on and on and on.  The reason this breed has a bad rep is because all the thuggs out there want to own one and make it mean.   It's not the dogs fault. 

A few years back a Palmaranean killed a baby...lets BAN Palms?

[ChadTower]

Pomeranian?   

[polaris]

Pomegranate?   

[ChadTower]

Pomes Penyeach

He travels after a winter sun,
Urging the cattle along a cold red road,
Calling to them, a voice they know,
He drives his beasts above Cabra.

The voice tells them home is warm.
They moo and make brute music with their hoofs.
He drives them with a flowering branch before him,
Smoke pluming their foreheads.

Boor, bond of the herd,
Tonight stretch full by the fire!
I bleed by the black stream
For my torn bough!

(get more obscure than that - I dare you)

[patrickl]

Bad owner = bad dog regardless of the breed.

Still,  bad dog+devastating bite  is worse than bad dog+itsy bitsy bite.   It's the damage that a pitbul can do that makes it unfit for keeping as a pet. Just like Tigers, Lions and Puma's.

I am pretty sure there are other breeds that have as destructive of a bite.  Do you propose we ban all breeds with a bad bite?  Rotts?  Boxers?  Labs?  Golden Retrievers?  Mastiffs? 

All dog breeds that cause an excessive amount of maims and kills should be banned yes. At the very least Pits (and all related breeds), Rotts, Wolf hybrids and Mastiffs. These few breeds together are responsible for at least 2 thirds of all maimings and killings of humans by dogs. Even though in numbers they only make up a small portion of the total number of dogs. That's over a thousand dead or maimed people in the Clifton research.

[Dartful Dodger]

4 pages and no violence?!?

It’s like watching a two hour movie that’s rated R for language.

[xar256]

Pomeranian?   

Tell me you wouldn't want to Ban this?   

[polaris]

(get more obscure than that - I dare you)

my country's finest and his people.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz5qeyggSAM[/youtube]

[FrizzleFried]

Pomeranian?   

Whatever...I can't spell that little furballs name...

[ChadTower]

my country's finest and his people.

I don't see the Pome- tie in.

[markrvp]

So do you have any more news on what charges have been filed against the guy who shot the dog?

[AcidArmitage]

gangsta

[polaris]

my country's finest and his people.

I don't see the Pome- tie in.

i took it to the next level. james joyce rhymes with max boyce( the guy singing ) max boyce is somewhat of a folk hero in Wales, he has a big appeal to rugby fans.
you won though i had to google yours to make any sense of it, thats why i went ultra obscure.

[ChadTower]

That's okay, Acid brought it back we went from James Joyce to Jim Jones.

Which leads us to... Jeff Jarrett.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o8JT5Ikc6Y[/youtube]

[Jdurg]

J-E-Double-F, J-A-Double-R-E-Double_T.  Thas Right.  Jeff Jarrett.


Wow.  This thread has now officially gone to every topic on every end of the earth.  What else can we bring into this?   

[ChadTower]

I'll swing it back around on topic.

[Jdurg]

I'll swing it back around on topic.

 

Random piece of novelty award goes to ChadTower.  I now have to clean up the water I just spit all over my monitor upon seeing that.  Good job sir!!!   

[polaris]

I miss tommy  

[billf]

I miss tommy  

Wow!  A three day timeout.  What prompted that?  Tommy being Tommy.

[ChadTower]

Wow!  A three day timeout.

EDIT:  I think I found him.  He seems to like wine.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02V9Y0gkMqo[/youtube]

[polaris]

 
awesome, that dudes got issues. i liked their choice of amy winehouse for the outro, bless her.
i do worry about some of the things you find online chad 

[ChadTower]

   I could see how that would raise concern.  Around Halloween every year, DirecTV channel 101 shows a bunch of horror movies hosted Elvira style.  These movies are hosted by that dude and a hot chick in a leather bustier.  I wanted to see more of that chick so I googled her... much like Elvira, she's not nearly as hot without the outfit and context.  So then I googled the guy and found out he really is a total freak, as you can see.     Go to  his youtube page and check out the film Hollow... about a guy who lives in a tree and how he gets spare cash.   

[polaris]

i love goths, they're ---smurfing--- hilarious. miserable ---daisies--- as what they are.

i cant imagine this ad was on in the us ,so enjoy

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yc8evQ4u20[/youtube]

[ChadTower]

I used to live in Salem, MA... biggest goth tourist destination in north america.  On Halloween there would literally be a quarter million goths walking around a town that normally has 40,000 people.  They'd hold massive ceremonies in city parks that you could hear from my house.   

[shardian]

Apparently, that MF dog actually DID survive.

http://www.putnamlive.com/DogShotChargesWillBeFiled.html

It was rushed to a veterinarian who determined that the bullet somehow managed to miss the animals brain and other organs before exiting the dog.

What are the odds of that with a noggin that big?

Anyways, I've been told that the guy will probably just end up with a $150 fine once all is said and done. I'm sure that he'll be more than happy to take another crack if the dog starts hanging around the neighborhood again.

And for Tommy's sake since he'll eventually post again, the newspaper was responsible and identified the dog as a Staffordshire Terrier instead of the generic "Pit Bull". It doesn't matter though, because even Stafforshire breeders adamantly say that if a Staffordshire is allowed to run loose they can be a dangerous dog - more so than other breeds due to their nature of unprovoked aggressiveness to other animals.

[patrickl]

Lol that's some investigative reporting. All they have to go on is what the police told them?

[tk_42_1]

You gotta look out for those Terriers.  Mine can be vicious.

[shardian]

You gotta look out for those Terriers.  Mine can be vicious.

hehe.

Dog names can be very misleading can't they. By using the Stafforshire terrier name, it sure casts a completely different light on the story huh?

A Stafforshire Terrier, or better known as "those cuddly dogs that get tossed in with Pit Bulls", is alot more intimidating in real life than the name says. That specific dog, while I am sure is the sweetest dog in the world to his family, is pretty damn scary when he's coming at you as a stranger.

Here's a pic that vaguely resembles the victim dog. The real dog has a different head shape, which more closely resembles a Pit Bulls head...but WAY bigger. No joke, his head was the size of a basketball.

[billf]

More like this American Staffordshire Terrier?

[shardian]

Yeah, thats pretty much it though I've never seen the dog smile. He's either sad or pissed off most of the time.

Their looks can vary quite a bit in the face apparently. I guess it depends on the blood lines. Some have more defined muzzles that typical dog breeds have, and others have what I call the typical "in-line" terrier muzzle. This dog is about half and half.

[SithMaster]

Apparently, that MF dog actually DID survive.

http://www.putnamlive.com/DogShotChargesWillBeFiled.html

It was rushed to a veterinarian who determined that the bullet somehow managed to miss the animals brain and other organs before exiting the dog.

What are the odds of that with a noggin that big?

Anyways, I've been told that the guy will probably just end up with a $150 fine once all is said and done. I'm sure that he'll be more than happy to take another crack if the dog starts hanging around the neighborhood again.

And for Tommy's sake since he'll eventually post again, the newspaper was responsible and identified the dog as a Staffordshire Terrier instead of the generic "Pit Bull". It doesn't matter though, because even Stafforshire breeders adamantly say that if a Staffordshire is allowed to run loose they can be a dangerous dog - more so than other breeds due to their nature of unprovoked aggressiveness to other animals.

One lucky dog.

If this doesnt prove pit bulls arent a dangerous breed i dont know what does. 

[XyloSesame]

Since the dog survived, it looks like your neighborhood problems aren't over, shardian. As cold-hearted as it may sound, I had hoped for your sake the dog hadn't survived.

Now you have to deal with both the dog and the Hatfields and McCoys.

Good luck - I've got a friend dealing with a Pit that moved in across the street from him. He's got three kids and a keen eye on that dog, but no Pit Bull Repellent. And by Pit Bull Repellent, I mean gun.

[shardian]

I would SURELY hope the owner wouldn't let the dog run free again once it is healed up. Like I said before, I know he was only in the house to fix/resell. Here's hoping to him getting it on the market this spring and a fast sell.

One thing REALLY does irritate me though. I understand what the guy did was pretty out there and he definitely has anger issues, so that kills his case. However, he isn't near the monster that people will think after reading that article. There is no mention that the dog was allowed to run loose. There is no mention that the dog attacked HIS dog and HIS daughter. (the daughter thing is still alleged in my book because I did not witness anything, but the whole arguement started with the mom calling out the female dog owner and saying she had pictures from the last time the dog attacked her daughter). I do know that the shooter had addressed the issue and previous "attack" with the homeowners association President, who promised to address it, then did nothing just like he did with me.  ( I waited almost 2 weeks with multiple "CJ's my buddy, I'll talk to him tonight so don't worry about it" over the timespan.) I do not know if the shooter followed up with complaints with animal control or not though. Considering I had to harrass the hell out of them to get them out there,he might have called but there wouldn't be a record of it if they blew him off.

I get the feeling I know who "emailed" the news group considering "Staffordshire Terrier" is so plainly spelled out. I remember getting the "he's just a harmless Staffordshire Terrier" story from the owner still.

I have this to say: ---fudgesicle--- the owner, and ---fudgesicle--- anyone else who lets their mother ---smurfing--- dog run around a close spaced residential neighborhood 24/7. It's YOUR ---smurfing--- dog, YOU ---smurfing--- deal with it on YOUR OWN ---smurfing--- property, you piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!

Whew, that felt good. I just wish I was enough of an ---uvula--- to say that in public. Sometimes I admire PBJ for that ability. 

[ChadTower]

You can call the newspaper and fill them in on the details they weren't given, of course... that would make it a substantially more newsworthy story for them.  Plus newspapers really don't like being taken for a ride like that and tend to be a little vicious when given the rest of the story.

[patrickl]

I get the feeling I know who "emailed" the news group considering "Staffordshire Terrier" is so plainly spelled out. I remember getting the "he's just a harmless Staffordshire Terrier" story from the owner still.

Wouldn't that info be coming from the police report? I would assume the vet's info would include that info and the police would include it in their report.

FWIW in the Netherlands both the american staffordshire terrier and pit bull are banned.

[shardian]

I get the feeling I know who "emailed" the news group considering "Staffordshire Terrier" is so plainly spelled out. I remember getting the "he's just a harmless Staffordshire Terrier" story from the owner still.

Wouldn't that info be coming from the police report? I would assume the vet's info would include that info and the police would include it in their report.

FWIW in the Netherlands both the american staffordshire terrier and pit bull are banned.

The only info from the police report was included in quotations. The source of information about the condition of the dog was not disclosed, but the author did say at the beginning that he had received emails about the incident.

[patrickl]

Well that's what I meant, the "Staffordshire Terrier" bit is in the quoted part. They could have gotten that from the owner of course, but still.

[shardian]

Well that's what I meant, the "Staffordshire Terrier" bit is in the quoted part. They could have gotten that from the owner of course, but still.

My bad.

[tommy]

Bad owner = bad dog regardless of the breed.

Still,  bad dog+devastating bite  is worse than bad dog+itsy bitsy bite.   It's the damage that a pitbul can do that makes it unfit for keeping as a pet. Just like Tigers, Lions and Puma's.

Please don't be foolish and lump domesticated dogs in with wild animals. Of all the silly things to say on the grand scale of silliness this is the cake-taking silliness.

I've been told some of my comparisons are crazy but man, this guy thinks a tiger is the same as a dog because they both have teeth and can open their mouth's.

[patrickl]

The comparison is valid. Well maybe tigers is a bit too much, but a Puma is a perfectly valid comparison.

I wonder why you would think it's not valid.

Wild animals can be domesticated. They rarely attack and with the right trainer they sort of never attack. Just you claim with like pit bulls. Of course, just like with pit bulls, when they attack they do a lot of damage. Whichg is exactly why both puma's and pit bulls are not fit to be kept as pets.

[tommy]

A Puma would kill 2 or 3 pits at a time. How is that fair? A puma has to kill to eat and knows nothing other than just jumping on things that move and killing it, how is that fair? This is not fair and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

[tommy]

Read.

http://blogs.britannica.com/blog/main/2007/05/the-pit-bull-debate/

I'm sure this will do nothing to change your one track mind, but still...

[patrickl]

Read.

http://blogs.britannica.com/blog/main/2007/05/the-pit-bull-debate/

I'm sure this will do nothing to change your one track mind, but still...

Well I agree with some of it:

Pit Bulls (along with Rottweilers) are the types most often involved in fatal attacks against humans, often children.

Other than that it's the same delusional ¨I treat my dog well so fer suuuure my pit won't maul anyone even though the statistics and actual research show otherwise.¨

[tommy]

What did you agree with exactly? Only the parts where it does not support my feelings?

[patrickl]

What did you agree with exactly? Only the parts where it does not support my feelings?

I quoted the bit I agree with.

Pit Bulls (along with Rottweilers) are the types most often involved in fatal attacks against humans, often children.

I'm not sure what else is needed from that article. It's always the same nonsense. They agree that pit bulls and rottweilers are the breeds that commit most kills and maimings, yet we should not ban these breeds. Well then why do these breeds kill so often? Why only those breeds? Since it is only a few breeds that exhibit asymmetric risk of death and or maiming why not simply ban the breeds? What is gained by keeping these dogs among the public? Why must people die or be maimed for someones "pleasure" of keeping a dangerous animal? What else but banning these animals? Only allow them to be kept in cages?

[tommy]

I can break it down for you like this, and you can't say anything about this comparison no matter what you do. Both of these are dangerous things in life controled by people. Don't give me that "a gun can't walk off and kill someone", cause a dog can't either. The owner is in control of it's dog and gun and if the owner is not responsible people will die just the same.

A cop with a gun and a criminal with a gun, the cop or responsible person can always make the right choice with it's possession unlike the criminal or not responsible person. Don't blame the gun.

[CheffoJeffo]

The owner is in control of it's dog

Wait, I thought you said that owners not having control of their dogs was the problem ... 

[tommy]

The owner is in control of it's dog

Wait, I thought you said that owners not having control of their dogs was the problem ... 

Yes, owners not in the control are the problem, not the ones who actually have the control and take control.

I guess I should have said "owners should be in control". Better?

[patrickl]

50% of the people who got killed by a pit bull were the victim of a dog that never did anything wrong before. So it's not just situations like Shardian's. Every dog can bite in a bad moment. The problem with a pit is that it kills or maims when it attacks.

You can blah blah about being in control all you want, but these are animals. You can NEVER be in complete control of an animal. A dog DOES attack and kill on it's own where a gun needs to have someone pull the trigger for it. A dog can be annoyed because it was subjected to loud noises, because it's sick or because it feels threatened or whatever. In that state of mind it can do something completely unexpected and attack.

There is a reason why only a few breeds of dogs kill so much more often than all the others combined. It's because the breeds themselves are more dangerous than the others.

[tommy]

50% of the people who got killed by a pit bull were the victim of a dog that never did anything wrong before.

And were never treated and trained to get the potential problem out of the dog, this goes for all dogs. Just having a dog in the house that never did anything wrong is not the way to train a dog, this is just doing nothing and having a dog around, not a responsible owner, atleast not for pits. Steps need to be taken from the owner beyond feeding and providing a place to sleep.

You can blah blah about being in control all you want, but these are animals. You can NEVER be in complete control of an animal.

I'm an animal, you're an animal too, can you say for sure what I'm going to do in any situation? Does it matter if I was loved and explained as a child what is right or wrong, does it matter if I was not treated well as a child? Do these things make a person better or worse in any situation? Yes.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm an animal, you're an animal too, can you say for sure what I'm going to do in any situation?

Pretty much, yeah ... but that's why I'm the Swami ...

[tommy]

I'm an animal, you're an animal too, can you say for sure what I'm going to do in any situation?

Pretty much, yeah ... but that's why I'm the Swami ...

Some of us are more of an animal than others. 

[patrickl]

50% of the people who got killed by a pit bull were the victim of a dog that never did anything wrong before.

And were never treated and trained to get the potential problem out of the dog, this goes for all dogs. Just having a dog in the house that never did anything wrong is not the way to train a dog, this is just doing nothing and having a dog around, not a responsible owner, atleast not for pits. Steps need to be taken from the owner beyond feeding and providing a place to sleep.

That is just your uninformed opinion against the cold hard facts that these dogs are one of a very few breeds that have a high risk of killing people.

Even if what you say is true then the risk that someone gets it wrong is obviously so great that these dogs are still not fit to be kept out of a cage.

Why is it that only people who own pits and rottweilers mistreat their dogs so badly that just about only those types of dogs go about killing and maiming people?

You can blah blah about being in control all you want, but these are animals. You can NEVER be in complete control of an animal.

I'm an animal, you're an animal too, can you say for sure what I'm going to do in any situation? Does it matter if I was loved and explained as a child what is right or wrong, does it matter if I was not treated well as a child? Do these things make a person better or worse in any situation? Yes.

No. Animals can still do something unexpected even if they have been treated perfectly all their life

More importantly, a dog can be annoyed because it was subjected to loud noises, because it's sick or because it feels threatened or whatever. In that state of mind it can do something completely unexpected and attack.

[tommy]

Why is it that only people who own pits and rottweilers mistreat their dogs so badly that just about only those types of dogs go about killing and maiming people?

That's just it, maybe they mistreat the dog or maybe they don't. The main thing is that they DID NOTHING to prevent an attack. People think dogs are toys and are something fun to have around that they do not have to do anything with or take responsibility for until they find out something bad went down. People think having a dog requires no action on their part and that it is a toy for their amusement. 

The dogs are big, yes, a bad poodle owner's dog is not going to have to worry about his dog doing a lot of damage, yes. A bad pit owner has more to worry about, yes, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

I think I'm starting to not want to talk about pit bulls anymore, please do not respond anymore. 

[CCM]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/23/MNGRODDH561.DTL



http://www.dogexpert.com/Popular%20Press/Stories/Pitbullfriend.html

In the last 18 months, 12 of the 18 confirmed dog-related fatalities in the U.S. -- or 67% -- have been caused by the pit bull terrier, a breed that accounts for only 1% of the U.S. dog population.

 

Unfortunately the pit bull, when it attacks, doesn't merely bite man -- or, most horribly, child -- it clamps its powerful jaws down and literally tears its victim apart. ''The injuries these dogs inflict are more serious than other breeds because they go for the deep musculature and don't release; they hold and shake,'' says Sheryl Blair of the Tufts Veterinary School, in North Grafton, Mass., which last year held a symposium entitled Animal Agression: Dog Bites and the Pit Bull Terrier. ''Most breeds do not multiple-bite,'' says Kurt Lapham, a field investigator for the West Coast Regional office of the Humane Society. ''A pit bull attack is like a shark attack: He keeps coming back.''  ''A  pit bull,'' says Judge Victor E. Bianchini of San Diego, '' is the closest thing to a wild animal there is in a domesticated dog."

''A  pit bull,'' says Judge Victor E. Bianchini of San Diego, '' is the closest thing to a wild animal there is in a domesticated dog."

[patrickl]

Why is it that only people who own pits and rottweilers mistreat their dogs so badly that just about only those types of dogs go about killing and maiming people?

...

The dogs are big, yes, a bad poodle owner's dog is not going to have to worry about his dog doing a lot of damage, yes. A bad pit owner has more to worry about, yes, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

Exactly, because pit bulls are more dangerous than other types of dogs. Finally we're getting somewhere.

So you understand these dogs are more dangerous than others. Now, why should the public be subjected to this extra danger? Is there any special need that we have for these dogs? Like with a car when we take the risk because we need to move. Somehow I miss the reason why hundreds of people need to die for some peoples desire to keep an overly dangerous dog.

[Singapura]

The quote of today is:

The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people.
  - GK Chesterton

[mpm32]

Perhaps pits should not be banned but regulated like owning a big cat or other exotics.  People would still own them illegally but at least there would be some control.

[shardian]

Thanks for providing a link Tommy. That was a decent little report. Oh, and it also provided a pretty good picture of the shot dog.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0793801907/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-7657329-6436103#reader-link

A slightly different color scheme, a slighty wider head and there the beast sits. And on the cover of a PIT BULL book of all places. I should buy a copy and leave it with the owner.

And please Tommy, stop comparing a living, thinking, instinctive creature with an inanimate object that can only inflict damage when physically loaded, aimed, and fired.

I'll also ask you again, why don't YOU champion an effort to create legislation to regulate the ownership of vicious breeds? If you are sick and tired of being thought of as a bad owner even though you take all the precautions on your own that would be required in laws, why not try to create legislation such as:

Certified breeding papers
Certified dog training
leash laws
Muzzles in public
full containment

AND allow police officers to ENFORCE these laws with fines, EMPOWER animal control to take the dogs, and possibly JAIL for repeat offenders. The lure of Pit Bulls wouldn't be so great to the "bad owners" then now would it? Only TRUE Pit Bull lovers like yourself would be left to own them, and you could then more justifiably defend the breed and restore its reputation.

The REASON lawmakers just cut to the chase and ban these dogs is
A. because "good" owners refuse to acknowledge they are outnumbered by "bad owners'
B. "good owners" refuse to believe their dogs are dangerous if the dog gets loose.
C. "good owners" just ---smurfette--- and moan instead of supporting stricter guidelines for large dog ownership
D. Enforcement of ANY of the laws would require a law officer to be present when the dog committed a violent act. (This is the deal breaker).

So, lawmakers are forced to go the quick and dirty route because high horse individuals as yourself don't offer any support to the better route.

[sparcade]

My 2 cents......

In general it has not as much to do with the "neighborhood" or type of dog as the fact that
dogs are animals and we can't predict their behavior which is why they should always be on a lease or fenced in.

I live in a nice middle class area and while my daughter was out riding her bike in front of the house, a neighbors dog(not a pit bull) got loose and did a nice job tearing up her lower leg.  She'll have those scars forever.

Love dogs or hate em....  doesn't matter.........  when it's your kid that gets scarred you see the light ... there should be ZERO tolerance for unleashed dogs!

[patrickl]

How are you going to decide if someone is a good owner or not? Give them an evening course in dog training? I seriously doubt these people listen to reason. All current owners would protest and so they probably get a "free" license. So then what. You revoke the license when their dog does kill someone anyway?

Besides, even the dog of a good owner can kill/maim. As in 50% of pit attacks are dogs that were fine for years.

Banning dogs is difficult enough. Let alone setting up an entire system for licensing and certification of owners.

Muzzles and a leash laws would be the very least that should happen. Although I'd say most attacks happen indoors where they grab a visiting child. Even with leash laws and muzzles, you still have all those attacks.

Why should society be penalized for this dangerous dog fetish of a few people?

[ChadTower]

E.  Many "good owners" are in fact "bad owners" and will never acknowledge or understand that fact.

[shardian]

Here's yet another piece that has plenty of pictures of Pits cuddling with babies. It also has a bit of decent information of Pit Bull behavior motivation and characteristics written by an expert on Pit Bulls
http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits.htm

According to the article, ANY aggression towards non-threatening humans is atypical of the breed. I'll buy that to a point. For instance, when my neighbor only had the white Pit, it WAS a happy go lucky dog, that was great with his kids, friendly to all passersby, (although a little to jumpy and kept trying to get at my baby - which was not cool no matter how friendly her intentions), and NEVER barked. While it did make us a bit uncomfortable to be out walking, I wasn't afraid to walk to my mailbox. The male on the other hand was aggressive towards humans other than his family from day one. It could be because he was defending his woman, or because he has a behavior problem. Still, a good pit should not feel the need to defend his woman from a non-threatening human. The female Pit followed the big dogs lead and also became aggressive, along with a loose mut from around the corner. They trapped me in the middle of the street one night and I won't lie to you, it scared the ---Cleveland steamer--- out of me. Every time I turned my back they would start toward me. I get the feeling that Tommy would change his tune pretty quick if he was able to see "the other side" of his Pit Bull. I have faced down more than a few highly aggressive dogs, and this was on a different level.

The problem with Pits is their genetic traits - gameness and determination. It is up to the Pit to decide if an animal is a threat. If they see a child acting funny and feel they are being challenged, then as we say "it's on like Donkey Kong".

The article explicitly states that a Pit is a horrible guard dog because they love all humans. Basically, they are saying that a "good" Pit will not even bark at the mailman when he comes to the door. If that is true, and is brought to the attention of former Pitt owners who were attacked to contemplate, I wonder how many would come back and say their dog did bark at strangers. Puts a new light on things when you consider that huh?

So I will submit this to Tommy for his consideration from an expert who has written many books on Pit Bulls:

Mentally sound Pits do not show ANY aggression to ANY humans, unless very obviously threatened. Conversely from that, if ANY Pit shows ANY aggression whatsoever to ANY human, then it should be considered a safety risk from that point on.

Tommy, has your Pit ever shown ANY aggression to ANY human?

[ChadTower]

Tommy, has your Pit ever shown ANY aggression to ANY human?

Frankly, that's a useless question.  Very, very few dog owners will ever admit to this.  Hell, when I had a paper route there was a little poodle thing that would try to get at me every day.  One day it finally did and ripped a chunk out of my forearm... as I'm standing there bleeding, and her white poodle has blood all over its muzzle, the woman is still standing there saying it didn't happen.

When my older son was 2 we went over the wife's cousin's house... they had some rather large but mostly docile dogs.  Not knowing the dogs, I wanted them put away while my son was toddling around... they refused and told me I was being unreasonable.  5 minutes later one of the dogs went after my son, who was just standing there (about ten of us saw it) to the point that my mother in law snatched him off the ground and I tackled the dog.  To this day the owners deny the dog was wrong and that everyone else in the room must be lying.

I've met very, very few owners that were honest with themselves about safety issues with their dogs.

[Jdurg]

I saw this story on the news last night and immediately thought of this thread.   

[shardian]

I saw this story on the news last night and immediately thought of this thread.   

Everyone looses.

[ChadTower]

It's safe to say that guy falls into the "bad owner" bucket.

[shardian]

I've been in contact with the fellow who wrote the news article I posted. He met with the owner last night and saw the dog. He also tried to meet with the shooter to get his side of the story. Before I finish that incident, I'd like to sidebar about the shooter.

I have heard from several sources the guy is a first class ---uvula---. My neighbor told me of an incident involving him. She was outside, and saw the man's daughter allow her dog to poop in her yard and went to walk off without cleaning it up. The neighbor called the girl back, told her that she needs to pick that up, and even supplied her with a plastic baggy. A few minutes later, the dad showed up, yelled at my neighbor, and threw the bag of poop at her house. He then showed back up a few minutes after that to apologize, say he overreacted, then picked back up the poopie sack. I took that story with a grain of salt...until I heard the next thing.

This is the reporters words:

I went to the home at 124, which I was told was the shooter's house. As you say, it is up the street and around the corner.

Here is what happened: As I approached that home, a dog inside went into a barking frenzy and I could hear it slamming against the front door. A man SCREAMED at the dog. When I knocked on the door, a shirtless, goateed man with a shaved head came out yelling. I introduced myself and he then asked who I was. (I had JUST told him that!) I re-identified myself, he grabbed my camera, and tried to shove me off the steps. (He later admitted this to the deputy that I called.)

  At least the guy was honest to the police.

[ChadTower]

I wonder who is more dangerous - the dog or that guy.  Either way the guy did your work for you.  Just be sure to keep the eff away from him.

[patrickl]

I guess the guy already showed that he has a screw loose, by shooting a dog in the middle of a street filled with people.

Are you sure your neighbourhood is safe enough?

[shardian]

Just be sure to keep the eff away from him.

Ya think?

[ChadTower]

Poo flinging... definite sign of madness.

I remember posting here about the incident where I was planting bushes in my front yard and a woman walking by let her dog crap on them before I was even done planting.  When I told her to pick it up she snorted and went to walk away... so I did the responsible thing and returned it to her by picking it up with the shovel and flinging it at her as she walked away.  I fully expected her to call the cops but they never came by.

I can't find a link to that thread for the life of me, though.  Maybe that was in the asshat hole.

[tommy]

Tommy, has your Pit ever shown ANY aggression to ANY human?

No. I have said it many times before, never. My dog sees me as it's master and the one it needs to listen to at all times, no exceptions. This is not to say it will act crazy when I'm not around, that's not true either. I would tell you if he ever did anything towards me that made me worry, or better yet, he would not be here. Same for any dog.

My pit is also not a giant like the one on that book cover, but that means nothing. My dog is on the smaller to medium pit size.

[tommy]

I've got a friend dealing with a Pit that moved in across the street from him. He's got three kids and a keen eye on that dog, but no Pit Bull Repellent. And by Pit Bull Repellent, I mean gun.

You should be looking to shoot the guy across the street then, he will be the one in control of that dog and decides if he is going to step up and act like a responsible dog owner or just let the dog walk across the street and hurt you.

[ChadTower]

No one is in 100% control of their animal at all times.  Not a dog, a horse, a gerbil.  Never.  Free will exists in all of them.

[tommy]

I strongly erg you guys to watch this show if you have time, I swear it will change a lot of your ideas about dogs.

If you would only to listen to one thing I have to say, listen to this, watch it.

This is the video.


http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/video_preview_1.html

[shardian]

Holy crap Tommy. None of us CARE what you or other responsible dog owners do in your own home. A "Dog Whisperer" is absolutely worthless when it comes to dealing with OTHER PEOPLES DOGS that are on MY PROPERTY OR LOOSE IN PUBLIC in a threatening manner.

As with all rose tinted glasses owners, you are completely not getting what the PROBLEM is. Pit Bulls CAN BE DANGEROUS when UNRESTRAINED IN PUBLIC due to their nature.  The keyword is PUBLIC. Even your precious dog would be a THREAT to the PUBLIC if he were to start running around all the time.

[tommy]

You just don't get it, if all people were like these people and wanted to care about their dog there would be no problems. These are dog owners trying to fix their dogs issues and these are the kind of dog owners you want to live near.

I can't see what you're getting so angry about, you're beyond help and everyone around you is in trouble.

Watch the video, mr know it all who knows nothing, shardian.

Shardian you don't even want to fix the problem, all you want to be able to do is sit in your little house in your perfect or imperfect world and be able to point your finger at these dogs, YOU need to educate yourself and want to be educated.

[ChadTower]

You just don't get it, if all people were like these people and wanted to care about their dog there would be no problems.

You can say that about any crime or abuse. 

If only everyone followed the rules and had the community's best interests at heart...

[tommy]

Watch the video and get back to me. You guys obviously did not watch and your post show that by stuff you wouldn't say if you did watch it.

[Samstag]

I don't see how those videos would help Shardian.  Even if he were able to approach the dog I don't think it has any ears left to whisper into.

[CCM]

Shardian you don't even want to fix the problem, all you want to be able to do is sit in your little house in your perfect or imperfect world and be able to point your finger at these dogs, YOU need to educate yourself and want to be educated.

WTF!!

How the hell is Shardian supposed to fix the problem of his neighbors pit bulls running wild, save killing them??  Is he supposed to steal the dogs and ship them off to Ceasar Milan, or send them to you since you are the pit bull whisperer? 

Shardian doesn't need to educate himself about pit bulls, he doesn't own one.  All he needs to be concerned about is keeping his family safe!

As it's been said before, you are the one that doesn't want to fix the problem of bad owners.  You are such a pro- pit bull guy, why don't you want to fight to save your breed.  You should be the most outraged at these stories of bad pit bulls, but all you want to do is sit back and say my pit bull is perfect...

You take any view that doesn't match yours as a personal insult.  Maybe you are the best pit bull trainer in the world and maybe I could come into your house and be completely safe around YOUR dog.  The problem isn't you or your dog, it's all the bad owners out there.   It's these dogs that run wild thru neighborhoods.  The dogs are VERY dangerous when untrained, uncared for, and unattended.

I have a chihuahua, if I let it run thru the neighborhood, do you really think anyone is going to be scared for themselves or their children?  The dog weighs 5 pounds, couldn't break skin even if it did bite you and I have to stay close to it when it is in our yard so a hawk doesn't grab it.  (a hawk did attack our other dog a few years ago).

The difference is (which you can't seem to understand) is when a pit bull bites, it means business, it's not a bite and release type of dog.  It's a bite, hold, rip, tear, until someone beats it to make it stop.


get a grip on reality.

and btw, what the hell is erg?

[tommy]

The problem isn't you or your dog, it's all the bad owners out there.   It's these dogs that run wild thru neighborhoods.  The dogs are VERY dangerous when untrained, uncared for, and unattended.

You said is all right there. Do you think I was dropped out of the clouds and was just a good dog owner or did I have to make an effort? Shardian and others are blaming the dogs and as you clearly stated above, it is not the dogs fault.

Thank you for supporting my ideas. 

[ChadTower]

You said is all right there. Do you think I was dropped out of the clouds and was just a good dog owner or did I have to make an effort? Shardian and others are blaming the dogs and as you clearly stated above, it is not the dogs fault.

No, he's not.  He has been blaming the owner all along.

Solve the problem, tommy.  Prevent the attacks from happening.  What is the only possible way to do that?

[tommy]

As it's been said before, you are the one that doesn't want to fix the problem of bad owners.  You are such a pro- pit bull guy, why don't you want to fight to save your breed.  You should be the most outraged at these stories of bad pit bulls, but all you want to do is sit back and say my pit bull is perfect...

All I do is say it's the dog owners fault for how their dog acts. Watch the video and you will see exactly what I mean, but you will never do that because you want to go on thinking these crazy ideas and will never give what I say half a chance.


It's a good watch, watch it.

I'm trying to show you how to prevent the attack.
Watch the video and learn, chad!!

[shardian]

You just don't get it, if all people were like these people and wanted to care about their dog there would be no problems. These are dog owners trying to fix their dogs issues and these are the kind of dog owners you want to live near.

I can't see what you're getting so angry about, you're beyond help and everyone around you is in trouble.

Watch the video, mr know it all who knows nothing, shardian.

Shardian you don't even want to fix the problem, all you want to be able to do is sit in your little house in your perfect or imperfect world and be able to point your finger at these dogs, YOU need to educate yourself and want to be educated.

Thank you for that post. It reminded me what the real problem is here. We all live in the real world, and you live in Tommyville. I forgot there for a while.

I've been to the Dog Whisperer's site before when I WAS trying to cope with the situation and learn to communicate with these dogs. I am not a violent person, and would do anything to avoid a confrontation if I could.

On my run of street, almost EVERY house has a dog. Every single one of those folks:
A. Do not own a Pit Bull
B. Keep their dogs where they belong be it a tiny toy dog (to my right) or a large lab (directly across the street).

THOSE are the people I like to live beside. In comes this young punk ass who has to have 2 pit bulls and lets them run loose. He gets called on it, and he whines about how there isn't a problem and he don't understand why I would be so cruel to call animal control on his dogs. One of his dogs gets shot, and he still has the nerve to tell the reporter that he just don't understand why this happened, that he STILL has not tagged his dogs, and that he STILL lets the white one run around 24/7. How dense can you be?

I don't call that fixing a problem. Good intentions don't get much done do they? Like I've said before, they are really nice people, we liked them and were even talking about scheduling a game night with them before the big dog showed up. But it is a great show of disrespect to let their dogs take possession of others property and to harass other people and their animals.

[JimmyU]

I've seen two major problems with Pitbulls:
1. Bad owners who just don't teach the dogs how to behave safely.
2. Irresponsible breeding.  A lot of breeders just don't care about the bloodlines and desirable traits.  I've seen them actually breed more vicious dogs because that's what some owners wanted.

I've rescued two dogs and will never buy a dog (too many dogs that don't have homes.)  I would never adopt a Pitbull because it's almost impossible to determine what environment they were brought up in.  They may be docile and friendly the week or two they are it the shelter, but something from their past can cause them to snap and attack.

[SithMaster]

I've seen two major problems with Pitbulls:
1. Bad owners who just don't teach the dogs how to behave safely.
2. Irresponsible breeding.  A lot of breeders just don't care about the bloodlines and desirable traits.  I've seen them actually breed more vicious dogs because that's what some owners wanted.

I've rescued two dogs and will never buy a dog (too many dogs that don't have homes.)  I would never adopt a Pitbull because it's almost impossible to determine what environment they were brought up in.  They may be docile and friendly the week or two they are it the shelter, but something from their past can cause them to snap and attack.

quick edit your post before tommy gets mad and rants about how great pitbulls are and the merits of adopting 40 of them.

i dont get what the argument is about.  pitbulls are dangerous animals that only certain people should adopt.  maybe they should be regulated but then the government gets involved and how often does that work out.

and shardian sorry about your neighbors being crazy.

JimmyU - congrats on saving two dogs.  if i ever adopt again it will always be from a shelter.

[ChadTower]

Everyone here, no matter what their opinion of the dogs themselves, has been in agreement that the underlying problem is bad owners.

So ban the bad owners.  How?  You would have two options:

1)  Take away pits that have attacked.
2)  Take away pits before they attack.

The obvious question: Do you want to prevent attacks or simply punish those who have allowed attacks to happen?

[CCM]

As it's been said before, you are the one that doesn't want to fix the problem of bad owners.  You are such a pro- pit bull guy, why don't you want to fight to save your breed.  You should be the most outraged at these stories of bad pit bulls, but all you want to do is sit back and say my pit bull is perfect...

All I do is say it's the dog owners fault for how their dog acts. Watch the video and you will see exactly what I mean, but you will never do that because you want to go on thinking these crazy ideas and will never give what I say half a chance.


It's a good watch, watch it.

I'm trying to show you how to prevent the attack.
Watch the video and learn, chad!!

All you do is sound like a broken record.  You claim to be a good owner, you say it not the dog's fault, blah, blah, blah...   But you offer NO SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF BAD OWNERS!

You tell us to get educated and watch the dog whisperer, yet NONE OF US ARE THE PROBLEM.  You are the ONLY one that owns a pit bull.  We don't own these dangerous animals.  It's like you are trying to make us good owners of dogs we don't own... 

Since you are the pit bull expert, how are we supposed to deal with bad owners in our neighborhoods??  You have no answers for anything. 

[tommy]

You can't fix an ---uvula--- with a dog that is not responsible, you just can't, unless he wants to change.

If you want to see how a responsible owner tries to fix already bad problems in dogs, watch the video, Everything I'm talking about right now is about the video and if you did no look at it, then we really can't see where the other is coming from.

Don't read the name of the video and think you know all about what is on the video, you don't. Just take 15-20 minuets and watch it all the way through, is that so hard? Things will make a bit more sense to you when you do.

[ChadTower]

No one is trying to fix the responsible owners.

Answer the obvious question I presented, tommy.  Do you want the dogs to stay knowing attacks will happen or do you want to prevent the attacks?

[CCM]

You can't fix an ---uvula--- with a dog that is not responsible, you just can't, unless he wants to change.

If you want to see how a responsible owner tries to fix already bad problems in dogs, watch the video, Everything I'm talking about right now is about the video and if you did no look at it, then we really can't see where the other is coming from.

Don't read the name of the video and think you know all about what is on the video, you don't. Just take 15-20 minuets and watch it all the way through, is that so hard? Things will make a bit more sense to you when you do.

I watch the dog whisperer, I've already seen the actual episode.   Again you're missing the point and offering no solutions.   Good owners and people who are trying to do the right thing with their dogs are not the problem.  There needs to be a solution to the bad owners, to which your answer is: you can't fix them... That is not an answer.

There need to be laws enacted to regulate these dangerous animals.  And the laws need to be enforced.  Do you agree with this??  If you are a good owner as you claim, you should have nothing to worry about.

What would YOU do to stop these bad owners??  Ban the dogs, mandatory training/registration for the dogs, jail time, fines, etc...??

We can all agree that pit bulls are a huge problem in the wrong hands, but you just throw your hands up and say 'oh well, they're ---uvulas--- and you cant' change them', that's not a solution.

[shardian]

I watched your video Tommy. First off, that had absolutely zero relevance to an issue of uncontrolled dogs.

Wow, we learned that if a dog recognizes a human as master, and that they get the feeling that master is in control, they will not feel threatened because master will protect them. Well how about that? That's about as basic as dog psychology gets - pack mentality. Good for those people in that apartment complex that they are all responsible dog owners. I'll guarantee you that after the whisperer left, things went right back to the way they were.

I can solve all of those peoples problems real quick, if you live in a cramped apartment complex, GET A ---smurfing--- CAT!

I also found it quite humorous when the lady with the mixed pit tried to downplay that the pit was attacking her and her other dog and was COMPLETELY out of control. Mr. Whisperer says, "You are in denial". I like that guy.

Still, your video had absolutely no relevance.

As I've said before, I have had conversations with Ed Frawley, who is a world class expert in training vicious breed dogs, and for breeding and training German Shepherd police dogs. When an expert such as that advises you that there isn't anything you can do when confronted with a pissed off dog without an owner or master in sight, how the hell else do you expect me to educate myself.

[shardian]

You can't fix an ---uvula--- with a dog that is not responsible, you just can't, unless he wants to change.

So what else do you expect people in my situation to do other than get frustrated, get angry, try to relieve the owner of the dog they can't care for?

I can't legally, or in good conscience separate a bad owner from his dog. I can't speak reason to a bad owner. How else is there to combat this problem that you fully acknowledge exists other than to turn to lawmakers and ask for regulations so there is a baseline for authorities to act BEFORE a situation where a person or animal gets hurt?

[tommy]

So what else do you expect people in my situation to do other than get frustrated, get angry, try to relieve the owner of the dog they can't care for?

Just don't blame the dog.

Now everyone here is saying they agree that it's the bad owners and it is not the dogs fault anymore? This was not the case 3 or 4 pages ago.

I don't have all the answers, all I was saying is that the dogs are not at fault and if we can agree on that then all is good for me in this argument as that was my point from the start. If by me posting here many times has finally got you to understand that part, then that's great, that is my contribution to making people realize what is and what is not the problem.

If it makes you happy then I'll have to agree and say, yes, make pit bull owners from now on have to be trained and people need to know that they are not buying a dog as a toy and that they intend on following through with this dog till it dies.

Other than that, we can't change the past and probably not even the present, all we can do is change the future of pit bull owners.

[ChadTower]

How else is there to combat this problem that you fully acknowledge exists other than to turn to lawmakers and ask for regulations so there is a baseline for authorities to act BEFORE a situation where a person or animal gets hurt?

I've been asking that all along.  Either people find attacks acceptable as the price of the liberty to own a pitbull or they find the attacks outweigh that liberty.

Haven't gotten an answer yet despite asking it eleventy Drewzillion times.

[saint]

Just don't blame the dog.

Now everyone here is saying they agree that it's the bad owners and it is not the dogs fault anymore? This was not the case 3 or 4 pages ago.

Pit bulls are bad dogs.

[tommy]

What do you want from me? All I can speak on is what responsible owners do and I can't tell you how to change the world so that everyone on earth does not have to deal with losers. What I can tell you is that it is not fair for good people with good dogs to have to give up there dog based on what some other guys dog did because that guy does not give two shits about him, his kids, let alone a dog. It is also not fair that good people have to run into bad people with bad dogs and they have to get injured or die because of it. This is why this is such a hot topic, we must find a way to make everyone happy.

[shardian]

So what else do you expect people in my situation to do other than get frustrated, get angry, try to relieve the owner of the dog they can't care for?

Just don't blame the dog.

Now everyone here is saying they agree that it's the bad owners and it is not the dogs fault anymore? This was not the case 3 or 4 pages ago.

I don't have all the answers, all I was saying is that the dogs are not at fault and if we can agree on that then all is good for me in this argument as that was my point from the start. If by me posting here many times has finally got you to understand that part, then that's great, that is my contribution to making people realize what is and what is not the problem.

If it makes you happy then I'll have to agree and say, yes, make pit bull owners from now on have to be trained and people need to know that they are not buying a dog as a toy and that they intend on following through with this dog till it dies.

Other than that, we can't change the past and probably not even the present, all we can do is change the future of pit bull owners.

For the most part yes, it is the owner. There are still more than a few Pit Bulls ( and plenty of other dangerous breeds - don't want to single any one out now) out there that are just plain born with bad behavioral issues. That debate will always be a stalemate because some people (not naming any names) simply refuse to believe that these behavioral problems exist from the beginning and are not curable. They can only hope to be contained or redirected for as long a possible.

[ChadTower]

The only assumption I can make from tommy's post, since he will not actually answer the question, is that he finds a certain amount of attacks acceptable.  He did say that he finds it unfair that he would have to lose his dog... but did not say that it is unfair that innocent people are getting mauled.

[shardian]

What do you want from me? All I can speak on is what responsible owners do and I can't tell you how to change the world so that everyone on earth does not have to deal with losers. What I can tell you is that it is not fair for good people with good dogs to have to give up there dog based on what some other guys dog did because that guy does not give two shits about him, his kids, let alone a dog. It is also not fair that good people have to run into bad people with bad dogs and they have to get injured or die because of it. This is why this is such a hot topic, we must find a way to make everyone happy.

Quote from Abraham Lincoln:

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but NEVER all of the people all of the time.

Learn it, like it, or deal with it if you are on the losing side.

[tommy]

The only assumption I can make from tommy's post, since he will not actually answer the question, is that he finds a certain amount of attacks acceptable.  He did say that he finds it unfair that he would have to lose his dog... but did not say that it is unfair that innocent people are getting mauled.

What do you want from me? All I can speak on is what responsible owners do and I can't tell you how to change the world so that everyone on earth does not have to deal with losers. What I can tell you is that it is not fair for good people with good dogs to have to give up there dog based on what some other guys dog did because that guy does not give two shits about him, his kids, let alone a dog. It is also not fair that good people have to run into bad people with bad dogs and they have to get injured or die because of it. This is why this is such a hot topic, we must find a way to make everyone happy.

Reread.

[ChadTower]

Ah, yes, for once, rereading a tommy post did help.

tommy's solution is to not solve it.

[tommy]

To try to get back on topic, shardian.

That dog that got shot probably was too dangerous and probably deserved to get killed, maybe not in the way it did, but still. But that dog was a refection of it's owner or lack of owner and that dog was a victim of having a moron in charge of it.

Ah, yes, for once, rereading a tommy post did help.

tommy's solution is to not solve it.

No, not do nothing, but I don't have all the answers.

[ChadTower]

Now I'm satisfied with tommy's point of view.   

I don't entirely agree with it but I accept his position.

[shardian]

Cue the angels singing hallelujah, and lock this thread down before anyone can spoil this moment. This needs to be front page news people!!!

[ChadTower]

The big question:

Do we find a possible Giants super bowl appearance acceptable or do we need to ban Eli Manning before anybody gets hurt?

[tommy]

The big question:

Do we find a possible Giants super bowl appearance acceptable or do we need to ban Eli Manning before anybody gets hurt?

You better accept it, it's going to happen. The big question is can yo deal with it? 

Go on, doubt the Giants again, you can doubt them right up until they win it all.

[shardian]

I'll offer this consolation:
If for some strange impossible coincidence NY beats my Packers this weekend, I will swear to root for the Giants in the Superbowl. Your breakthru voice of reason means that much to me Tommy.

[ChadTower]

I won't stand against the possibility that they could beat the Packers.  They might do it.

The Patriots?  I'll stand on that like a 1000ft flagpole.

[SithMaster]

The big question:

Do we find a possible Giants super bowl appearance acceptable or do we need to ban Eli Manning before anybody gets hurt?

No just ban the owners of eli mannings.  its not the eli mannings fault it tackles people but the owners.

[tommy]

I think we came closer to anyone who has played the pats in beating them. Can we do it better next time? Maybe.

[ChadTower]

I think we came closer to anyone who has played the pats in beating them. Can we do it better next time? Maybe.

The Eagles and Colts were definitely closer.  I was never in doubt that they would beat the Giants, even halfway through the 4th when the Giants were still winning.

[Malenko]

Id rather the giants win then the pats, I hate them more then Tommy, and thats saying something. Its kinda like the lesser of two evils, Im saying I'd rather get kicked in the nuts then stabbed in the neck

[shardian]

I think we came closer to anyone who has played the pats in beating them. Can we do it better next time? Maybe.

The Eagles and Colts were definitely closer.  I was never in doubt that they would beat the Giants, even halfway through the 4th when the Giants were still winning.

I felt the Patriots would beat the Eagles and the Giants, but I thought the Colts had them. One thing is definitely true, all three teams played absolutely awesome against the Pats and still lost.

[ChadTower]

Id rather the giants win then the pats, I hate them more then Tommy, and thats saying something. Its kinda like the lesser of two evils, Im saying I'd rather get kicked in the nuts then stabbed in the neck

I'm not sure if he just said he hates the pats or the giants more, or if he hates them more than tommy does or he hates them more than he hates tommy.

[tommy]

Id rather the giants win then the pats, I hate them more then Tommy, and thats saying something. Its kinda like the lesser of two evils, Im saying I'd rather get kicked in the nuts then stabbed in the neck

I'm not sure if he just said he hates the pats or the giants more, or if he hates them more than tommy does or he hates them more than he hates tommy.

Me too. 

That does explain why he never listed my madden player request.

[shardian]

Id rather the giants win then the pats, I hate them more then Tommy, and thats saying something. Its kinda like the lesser of two evils, Im saying I'd rather get kicked in the nuts then stabbed in the neck

How hard of a kick are we talking? Depending on the kicker, I think I'd rather take the knife to the neck.

[tommy]

One of my dogs. Since we have gone around in circles because of him he deserves a little online time. 

[JimmyU]

One of my dogs. Since we have gone around in circles because of him he deserves a little online time. 

Oh, what the hell.  Let's turn this thread into "Post Pictures of Your Dog Thread."

[ChadTower]

Now that I think about it, the game I most thought the Pats wouldn't be able to pull out late was the Ravens game.  That might have been the closest they came to losing.

At least we can't argue the strength of schedule crap people talk about the '72 Dolphins.  These Pats beat everyone in the NFC East (all at or above .500), the Division Champs of all three other AFC Divisions, 10-6 Cleveland, 10-6/NFC Championship possible NYG... and that's not even counting the 7-9 teams they beat (Cincinnati, Buffalo twice).

Hell, if not for playing the Dolphins twice, they'd probably have an average opponent of way over .500.

[patrickl]

The origin of all pitbulls:

[tommy]

The origin of all pitbulls:

Don't post pictures of family members, please. 

[patrickl]

The origin of all pitbulls:

Don't post pictures of family members, please. 

Sorry I didn't know you were related to this dog.

[DrewKaree]

I can break it down for you like this, and you can't say anything about this comparison no matter what you do.

Wanna bet?   Let's see some nonsense, shall we?

Both of these are dangerous things in life controled by people. Don't give me that "a gun can't walk off and kill someone", cause a dog can't either.

I didn't think I'd have to be the one to break it to you, but strap that helmet on a little bit tighter, Tommy, cuz here it comes:  dogs have legs, and CAN just "walk off and kill someone"!  *GASP*  OH NOES!  I just demolished your premise by pointing out......basic anatomy of canines?  Jeez, try making 'em a bit tougher next time

The owner is in control of it's dog and gun and if the owner is not responsible people will die just the same.

If the gun owner leaves his gun in the yard, there IS a chance that someone will come by and kill someone with it.  There is also a chance that the DOG will ALSO kill someone who comes by.  The difference is that the gun won't leave the yard of its own volition and kill someone else, which can and DOES happen with the dog.

For the record, I'm not for banning ownership of the animals, but I DO like this idea:

Perhaps pits should not be banned but regulated like owning a big cat or other exotics.  People would still own them illegally but at least there would be some control.

Tommy, if you seriously don't get the concept Pat is pointing out to you with the Puma/Pit Bull comparison, you haven't ever seen a puma, nor did you even do a cursory investigation.  The comparison is not only valid, but a pretty damn good one.  You can't make it INvalid by saying "nuh uh, it's not even close, because one's a WILD animal, but the dog is a DOMESTICATED animal".  He covered that.  You're simply playing third-grade rules.  Doody head.

[MikeQ]

I warned you Tommy.   

[tommy]

I warned you Tommy.   

Good one. 

[ChadTower]

We took the photo and waited about a year to show him.  He wasn't pleased.

That is pretty ---smurfing--- mean.  Remind me to never hang out with you, just in case I forget.

[shardian]

Drew, you DO realize you are a bit late in this debate aren't you?

[SithMaster]

Drew, you DO realize you are a bit late in this debate aren't you?

Yeah they all changed tactics and started talking about their american football.

[XyloSesame]

Yeah they all changed tactics and started talking about their american football.

We should ban Pit Bulls and American Football

[DrewKaree]

Drew, you DO realize you are a bit late in this debate aren't you?

Some of us can't post during the day while at work. 

You're not about to tell me you could resist beating Tommy over the head with sense and logic, because this thread is rife with examples of just how poorly you are able to resist such a thing

Fun, i'nt it?

[tommy]

They have finally seen the light, drew, at least to some extent. The only one around here with no real logic seems to be you. You still keep quoting all the wrong quotes and keep making all the wrong points at all thew wrong times.

We are not surprised at this , though, drew, for that is your trademark. 

[CheffoJeffo]

* tommy continues to live in a wonderland where the actually defensible positions are what he originally intended to say and so, at least to some extent, others finally see the light.

[ChadTower]

Pit bull bites man - he comes back with a nail gun

I love how the story completely glosses over the fact that the dog was a pit bull.

[shardian]

Pit bull bites man - he comes back with a nail gun

I love how the story completely glosses over the fact that the dog was a pit bull.

I am curious as to why that is on CNN?

Anyways, since you bumped this up I'll update you. I haven't seen the dogs in a long time. I was starting to think he just got rid of them, but I heard them barking inside on Tuesday as I walked to the mailbox. So now instead of being an ignorant owner by letting his dogs run free, he is now an abusive owner that keeps two large dogs inside the house 24 hours a day with no walks, and no time outside. At least his dogs are HIS problem now and not mine. That is the important thing.

Here is the local REAL news report on the incident.
http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/13865902.html
The user posts are a nice read. I think they had alot to do with why C.J. has kept his animals in.

The Putnamlive report is the reporter I spoke to originally. Had I knew then what I know now, I would have never spoken with him. He isn't a real news reporter. Note that all articles on PutnamLive are done by the same reporter. Why? Because Mark Halburn is a whiny Hurricane resident who likes to cause as much trouble as possible, and makes his reports say what he wants them to say. He invented the website to get phony reporter credentials to aide his trouble-making.
Anyways, I can't remember if I posted his followup story, so it is below. I was pretty pissed upon reading it of course, since he went out of his way to suck C.J.'s wang in the article. Which of course, is because he was pissed at the shooter for being rude to him.
http://putnamlive.com/BlankenshipBustedForShootingDog.html

Note: My coworkers pick on me by totally siding with the owner. Why? Because his wife is a total MILF. I guess I can't fault them for that - she is way hotter in person.

[ChadTower]

That really is a high end pornstar hairdo.

If someone wants a big dog like that they need to live several feet away from anyone.

Yeah, that's the solution.  Make him live 15 feet away!

[Samstag]

Several feet?  He's at least a yard away from the nearest neighbor!

[shardian]

Come on guys, lets give him a break. It is obvious that he meant yards instead of feet.
He was obviously distracted by the pornstar hairstyle.

[ChadTower]

How can you live several yards from your nearest neighbor when every neighbor has their own yard?  Duh.

Make a deal with him.  His dogs can roam if his wife is with them - naked.  Risk/reward is restored.

[shardian]

How can you live several yards from your nearest neighbor when every neighbor has their own yard?  Duh.

Make a deal with him.  His dogs can roam if his wife is with them - naked.  Risk/reward is restored.

That's a good idea. His dogs can come in the yard whenever they want if I can watch his wife shower any time I want.

[ChadTower]

That's not a fair trade.  His dogs in your yard for you and his wife in his shower.  One trespasser for another.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Wow. That article is so horribly written, and so absolutely one-sided. I especially love how he keeps referring to the dog as a "Terrier" instead of Pit Bull. You know, to soften the story a bit. 

What a wanker of a "reporter".

[ChadTower]

I think I found the location.

[ark_ader]

Awww look at the kissing puppys.

Thats pretty funny Chadtower, considering.

You should write for the Tonight Show.   

[shardian]

Well, it appears the dogs are officially gone.

The wife was talking to the girl that lives across the street - next door to C.J. - and her story was that someone "stole" the dogs.
I find that hard to believe myself, considering they weren't ever out anymore. What I think happened is the wife got sick of the dogs living in her house and arranged for them to disappear. My mom did the same thing with my dog as a kid.

Either way, GOOD RIDDANCE!!!!!

[ChadTower]

What often happens in that situation is the county finally comes with a seizure order... and the owner says the dogs were stolen.  Most of the time they're just off with a relative in some other town while the owner and relative convince themselves they are the victims and are doing the right thing by saving the dogs from their evil neighbors.

[IronBuddha]

You must live in a bad area, with some bad people who own some bad dogs, now I see how you can be so stupid as to think all dogs are bad, especially pits. Wisen up.

When did he say all dogs?
So dogs that aren't disciplined only live in bad areas? I think it maybe you that needs to wisen up

[shardian]

You must live in a bad area, with some bad people who own some bad dogs, now I see how you can be so stupid as to think all dogs are bad, especially pits. Wisen up.

When did he say all dogs?
So dogs that aren't disciplined only live in bad areas? I think it maybe you that needs to wisen up

Just so you know, Tommy is long gone. He was "special".

[IronBuddha]

You must live in a bad area, with some bad people who own some bad dogs, now I see how you can be so stupid as to think all dogs are bad, especially pits. Wisen up.

When did he say all dogs?
So dogs that aren't disciplined only live in bad areas? I think it maybe you that needs to wisen up

Just so you know, Tommy is long gone. He was "special".

Oh, I'm new here so I don't know anything about Tommy. I just now noticed this thread was started in January, I just read it last night.

[Texasmame]

HEADSHOT!

[protokatie]

We need a new pinata. 

Hows this for ya?

[Wade]

The only thing unfortunate about how this turned out is the guy should have taken the dog somewhere else to shoot it.

Wade

[patrickl]

Just heard about a kid "mauling" a pit bull: Brazilian boy bites pit bull in self-defense

[Ed_McCarron]

Just heard about a kid "mauling" a pit bull: Brazilian boy bites pit bull in self-defense

Great.  They'll probably have the kid put down.

[shardian]

I didn't think to post this until a recent thread reminded me how much neighbors suck.

Anyways, 2 weeks or so ago the former pit bull owners acquired a new dog. They aren't complete dumbasses, so it isn't a Pit Bull - it is a hound dog pup. I think to myself "Well, maybe they learned their lesson and will actually keep their dogs under control. Well for the first day or two, the dog was running around outside with no collar and wherever it wanted. My blood pressure started to rise a bit. We went on a walk the second night and the puppy came up to us all excited. "Sorry puppy, I can't like you because your owners are ---uvulas---." C.J.'s wife called the puppy back to her and she got a not nice look from us. A little bit further up the street, the dog came running up to guess who barking and yelping: the kids of the guy who shot their other dog. Here comes the wife again, hollering at the dog, blah blah blah. In a voice meant to be overheard, I said to my wife "You'd think they would learn. How long do you think it will be until this one gets shot?"

I haven't seen the dog since. 

[ChadTower]

What eventually happened to dude who shot the dog?

[shardian]

All charges dropped against him. I first saw the dropped charges on that joke website putnamlive.com . I can't find the original though, but it was so horribly slanted and falsified that I emailed the writer. If you remember, the newblogger was not welcomed with open arms by the shooter.

Anyways, I did find some reputable news stories that were published in the Charleston Paper. The first one is an account that details the shooters story.

http://www.dailymail.com/News/200806250133
(note that it is a 2 page document.)

 While some of it is true, he has added some details that can't possibly be true. First off, C.J. was not home. Secondly, the shooter was not there for the majority of the episode. Of note in this article is the fact that his lawyer supplied the prosecutor with documents proving that the dog was put down due to aggressiveness. as you'll see in the next article, the owners deny this.

Next is another article that sums up the same thing, but with comments from one of the owners denying many of the shooters claims. I'm putting this in quotes because it was in among other summaries on a page, and wasn't a convenient link.

Dog's owner disputes shooter's story

Havoc, a mixed bull terrier, was wounded in a shooting in January by a Putnam County man who said the dog was aggressive towards his son. Havoc's owner says the man shot the dog without provocation.

Scott Blankenship said he had no choice but to shoot Havoc, a mixed bull terrier, because the dog had a history of aggression and was coming at his 10-year-old son. (See related item below.)

But Amy Sowards said Blankenship shot Havoc without provocation. She says Havoc had a history of playing with neighborhood children, not endangering them.

She denied that Havoc was threatening Blankenship's son, Jason, when he shot the dog.

Sowards said at least a dozen children and about five adults witnessed the shooting.

Blankenship had been charged with three firearms-related misdemeanors stemming from the Jan. 7 incident in the Imperial Estates subdivision in Culloden. But prosecutors dropped the charges because they didn't think a jury would have convicted Blankenship.

Sowards, 26, said she and her fiance, C.J. Pifer, 27, and several neighbors are upset at the decision to drop the charges. Sowards said the decision seems to have been based on Blankenship's version of the events.

Contrary to what Blankenship and Putnam Prosecutor Mark Sorsaia have heard, Sowards said that Havoc was not put down because of aggression.

She said the family gave both Havoc and another dog away because they were worried that Blankenship would harm the dogs.

Sowards maintains that she and Pifer did not let Havoc run loose. She said some neighborhood children had opened the fence door that leads to the backyard in order to play with Havoc.

She said they used to let Havoc run around when he was a pup, but stopped when a neighbor complained that dogs were barking at his wife.

(Charleston Daily Mail)

Culloden man says he had no choice but to shoot pit bull

Putnam County Prosecutor Mark Sorsaia has dropped charges against a Culloden man who was accused of shooting a dog that he claims was being aggressive towards his children.

Scott Blankenship was arrested Jan. 16 for wounding "Havoc," a Staffordshire bull terrier, with a .45 caliber handgun in the Imperial Estates subdivision. Blankenship was charged with three firearm-related misdemeanors.

Blankenship had been set for trial June 17.

But Sorsaia said he didn't think he could have convicted Blankenship, 31. Based on the evidence, Sorsaia figured some on the jury might have decided they would have shot the dog, too.

"It was just a mess and we didn't think we were going to win it," said Sorsaia.

Sorsaia said there was information that the dog was allowed to run loose in the neighborhood and had seriously maimed another dog.

He said his office also received documents from Blankenship's lawyer that Havoc's owners - C.J. Pifer and Amy Sowards - had him put down after the shooting because he was too aggressive. The dog survived the gunshot. (Charleston Daily Mail)

Of course, her story has as much B.S. in it as the shooters story. My question is this: Why would a lawyer endanger his license by providing the county prosecutor with a falsified paper detailing the dog being put down? I can only think that the "friend" they gave the dogs to did the dirty work for them and they claim ignorance. Of course, the rest of her response is pure ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. It makes me want to go smack that dumb ---smurfette---.


So there you have it, the whole story from beginning to end. Should I write a screenplay? 

[shardian]

The most important detail is missing - is Amy Sowards hot?

Yes...well, not as hot as she was when she first moved in. And the fact that seeing her makes me want to punch her in the face - I guess I'm not that much of an objective judge anymore  Since you asked, I figured she would have a myspace page. What ditsy blonde who wishes she was still in high school doesn't? Anyways, here is her ridiculously cluttered and uncolor-coordinated myspace page:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=378519188

Seriously, do people even proofread those ---smurfy--- myspace pages? Most of her links are the SAME COLOR as the background.

[shardian]

Look at the terror in that little girl's eyes.

Hehe, that's actually part of the problem. Pack mentality - its just something that Tommy couldn't comprehend back in the beginning of the thread.

What a cute little puppy huh?

[shardian]

Their kids are as cute and sweet as can be. The little girl comes over to our place to see our daughter whenever we are out.

The whole situation really sucks. We were organizing an outdoor movie screening with them when the first dog showed up in early Fall. The neighborhood was starting to get friendly, people were out more, we had a community block party, etc. Throw two pitbulls into the mix and all the sudden noone talks to anyone unless it is to ---smurfette--- about someone else. Noone goes outside hardly at all. Everyone stays pissed at all times when in the neighborhood. It just flat out sucks and could have all been avoided if they would have had the common courtesy to keep their dogs secured on their property.

The old saying is very, very true:

Good fences make good neighbors.

[ChadTower]

Hrm... so two pit bulls turns your WV neighborhood into a MA neighborhood.  Interesting. 

[shardian]

All I know is that if and when we move, one of our top priorities is to simply not have neighbors.

[ChadTower]

There are buttloads of houses for sale in my town now... so many people are trying to sell it's not even funny.  Lots of game sources around here.   

[shardian]

You couldn't pay me enough to live in MA.

[ChadTower]

You couldn't pay me enough to live in MA.

This is wisdom. 

[ChadTower]

I think the whole point of this thread is thus:

Hot, single moms are so desperate for companionship in West Virginia that they'll put up with idiots bringing pit bulls into their households full of illegitimate children.

Wayull, he ain't the greatest, but mah kids needa daddy.

[Wade]

All I know is that if and when we move, one of our top priorities is to simply not have neighbors.

I dunno man, the places like farms where you find no "real" neighbors usually brings out the very worst as far as taking care of their property, letting dogs run loose, etc.  "I don't need no permit to burn a fire!  So I want to use my chainsaw and shoot my gun all night long... so whut??"

We have great neighbors!!  The house next door is for sale, move into our neighborhood!

This is the reason we bought a house in the neighborhood we did.  We dealt with so much crap in the neighborhood where I grew up that my wife and I made being in a "nice" neighborhood a serious priority.  Best you can do is buy a house in an expensive neighborhood where the riff raff can't afford to live, not that there are any guarantees of course.  We got really lucky and hopefully our nice neighbors will be around a long time.  Knowing their situations and backgrounds I suspect they will be, except for the old lady selling the house next door.  I'm praying another nice family moves in there.

Wade

[shardian]

We have great neighbors!!  The house next door is for sale, move into our neighborhood!

This is the reason we bought a house in the neighborhood we did.  We dealt with so much crap in the neighborhood where I grew up that my wife and I made being in a "nice" neighborhood a serious priority.  Best you can do is buy a house in an expensive neighborhood where the riff raff can't afford to live, not that there are any guarantees of course.  We got really lucky and hopefully our nice neighbors will be around a long time.  Knowing their situations and backgrounds I suspect they will be, except for the old lady selling the house next door.  I'm praying another nice family moves in there.

I like the area up there, but another priority is that we live in a flat neighborhood. It's probably out of my price range anyways.

Man it sucks when the nice neighbors move away. We had awesome neighbors across the street, but the husband got transferred to the Carolina's. The new neighbors are Tennessee rednecks and let their kids run wild. Nice kids, but damn they don't have a manner to split between them.

Nice neighborhoods can turn crappy pretty quick. We learned that with our neighborhood. Hopefully the reverse is also true - that ---smurfy--- neighborhoods can turn good again. Somehow I doubt it.

[ChadTower]

We loved the guy across our sidestreet when we moved in.  Great guy, nice to our kids, when my wife was in her car accident he was actually out there faster than I was.  Sadly he passed on a couple of years ago.  The guy who is in that house now actually walks away when you try to introduce yourself to him.  At least he's quiet and his lawn is kept better than mine.

[Wade]

We have great neighbors!!  The house next door is for sale, move into our neighborhood!

This is the reason we bought a house in the neighborhood we did.  We dealt with so much crap in the neighborhood where I grew up that my wife and I made being in a "nice" neighborhood a serious priority.  Best you can do is buy a house in an expensive neighborhood where the riff raff can't afford to live, not that there are any guarantees of course.  We got really lucky and hopefully our nice neighbors will be around a long time.  Knowing their situations and backgrounds I suspect they will be, except for the old lady selling the house next door.  I'm praying another nice family moves in there.

I like the area up there, but another priority is that we live in a flat neighborhood. It's probably out of my price range anyways.

Man it sucks when the nice neighbors move away. We had awesome neighbors across the street, but the husband got transferred to the Carolina's. The new neighbors are Tennessee rednecks and let their kids run wild. Nice kids, but damn they don't have a manner to split between them.

Nice neighborhoods can turn crappy pretty quick. We learned that with our neighborhood. Hopefully the reverse is also true - that ---smurfy--- neighborhoods can turn good again. Somehow I doubt it.

You won't find a flat neighborhood around here, that's for sure.  You really have to leave town or be IN town to do that in Charleston.

Yeah, things can change.  We had a couple neighbors come and go (Dow employees) before these settled in.  They were fine, but not as nice as the folks around now.

A huge key is avoiding a neighborhood that has rental houses or apartments.  There's always a big turnover, and typically the people who live in rentals aren't the people you want for neighbors, anyway.  Every house that turns into a rental basically sucks value out of every home around it.  We had several in my old neighborhood and Katie's childhood neighborhood, though I don't think hers was as bad as mine overall.

Wade

[shardian]

According to the Homeowners Preisdent, who sends out the association bills, pretty much all of the homes in the neighborhood are owned by the occupants. I think there may be 1 or 2 rentals up on top of the hill, but they might as well be in a different state up there.

[Wade]

According to the Homeowners Preisdent, who sends out the association bills, pretty much all of the homes in the neighborhood are owned by the occupants. I think there may be 1 or 2 rentals up on top of the hill, but they might as well be in a different state up there.

That's a really good sign, and surprising (rentals had taken over everywhere I've lived before).  I guess it's just unfortunate you have a few jackasses in there.

Wade

[shardian]

Well, I would say that even though the homes are "owned", renters are the owners. Why not, when you can get approved for a home loan with zero down and bad credit?