Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns --- Bug Reports --- Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Some help please re controls  (Read 2414 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cdbrown

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1242
  • Last login:October 16, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
  • Bowowow
Some help please re controls
« on: June 26, 2002, 08:46:21 pm »
G'day all,

Now bear with me as I have a few questions which have come about through new ideas and previously answered questions.  I realise I need buttons for everything so don't need to point it out.

1. Are there any games that use the trackball with another control type (spinner joystick)?
2. Any games which use a spinner with other control type?
3. Are there many games that use two trackballs?

I am hoping to use genius kidsball because they are very cheap compared with other arcade balls (Happ, Imperial) especially considering I can get the kidsball locally (Perth, Western Australia ::)).
4. They plug into the serial port so am I able to get two working at the same time (sorry if this is a silly question but I don't know)
5. I am getting the optipac for the 2 rotary optical joys - has anyone been able to connect the kidsball to the optipac?
6. Does the optipac get around the problem of windows only being able to have one pointing device?

Sorry about the amount of questions but they are bugging me :-/.  Any responses would be really great.

Cheers
-cdbrown  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

u_rebelscum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3633
  • Last login:April 21, 2010, 03:06:26 pm
  • You rebel scum
    • Mame:Analog+
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2002, 12:28:02 am »
Quote
G'day all,

Now bear with me as I have a few questions which have come about through new ideas and previously answered questions.  I realise I need buttons for everything so don't need to point it out.

1. Are there any games that use the trackball with another control type (spinner joystick)?


I don't think so.

Quote
2. Any games which use a spinner with other control type?


If you mean spinner + 8way/4way, there is a bunch.  Discs of Tron and Forgotten Worlds are the most obvious two.
Some more have spinner steering wheel + pedals.

Quote
3. Are there many games that use two trackballs?

I am hoping to use genius kidsball because they are very cheap compared with other arcade balls (Happ, Imperial) especially considering I can get the kidsball locally (Perth, Western Australia ::)).


Marble Maddness, Cabal, Rampart (3), Atari Football (4).  Dang, there's others but cannot remember them off the top of my head.

Quote
4. They plug into the serial port so am I able to get two working at the same time (sorry if this is a silly question but I don't know)


Yes.  (but see answer #6)

Quote
5. I am getting the optipac for the 2 rotary optical joys - has anyone been able to connect the kidsball to the optipac?


Probably, it's just like other mice AFAIK.

Quote
6. Does the optipac get around the problem of windows only being able to have one pointing device?


No.  A new USB model is being worked on, I hear, that might get around it, but the current model can't since it uses the serial port. :(  Dos mame with the correct drivers and other system setting and the current optipac does work with two pointing devices.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Robin
Knowledge is Power

jerryjanis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 820
  • Last login:July 23, 2018, 10:05:07 pm
  • Skate or Die!!!
    • Jake's Joystick
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2002, 01:10:47 am »
Games that use a Joystick and a Trackball:
-------------------------------------------------
Wacko
Snake Pit
SDI - Stategic Defense Initiative (Joystick, Trackball, Buttons 2 players simultaneous)

Games that use a spinner and a joystick:
----------------------------------------------
Tron
Discs of Tron (Up/Down Spinner)
Zwackery (Up/Down Spinner)
Crater Raider
(There are more)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

cdbrown

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1242
  • Last login:October 16, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
  • Bowowow
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2002, 02:34:50 am »
Quote
Games that use a Joystick and a Trackball:
-------------------------------------------------
Wacko
Snake Pit
SDI - Stategic Defense Initiative (Joystick, Trackball, Buttons 2 players simultaneous)


Nothing is easy  :'( when it comes to planning a panel.

Quote
Games that use a spinner and a joystick:
----------------------------------------------
Tron
Discs of Tron (Up/Down Spinner)
Zwackery (Up/Down Spinner)
Crater Raider
(There are more)


I'll definitely have a joystick with the spinner.  It looks like I'll have to miss out on those trackball/joystick games :(.

Quote
No.  A new USB model is being worked on, I hear, that might get around it, but the current model can't since it uses the serial port.   Dos mame with the correct drivers and other system setting and the current optipac does work with two pointing devices.


So does this mean if I use mamew, the two rotary opticals that are plugged into the optipac won't function for the second player?

If I were able to have the 2 spinners, 2 trackballs and 2 rotarys on on panel the optipac only has 4 inputs and will only use 2 at a time (I think) - so I would be better off not having all together  ???
Any recommendations on how I should tackle this.  I realise it's extremely difficult (and expensive) to get panels to cover everything but I would like to come close.

Are there any games that require the rotary optical joystick and 4/8 way joystick, or spinner, or trackball?
If not I could put the rotarys on the 4 player panel and have the 2 spinners, 2 trackballs and 2 4/8 way joysticks on the second panel.

I know I keep asking this type of question but I would like to sort out the requirements on the panels before I go ahead and lay it out.

Thanks to u_rebelscum and jerryjanis for your responses.
Any more help would be fantastic.
Cheers
-cdbrown
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

u_rebelscum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3633
  • Last login:April 21, 2010, 03:06:26 pm
  • You rebel scum
    • Mame:Analog+
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2002, 02:21:20 pm »
Quote
So does this mean if I use mamew, the two rotary opticals that are plugged into the optipac won't function for the second player?

This is true for standard mame(w).  The windows OS combines all mouse inputs into one "system mouse", and mame can only see that one mouse.

You can get around this with Mame:Analog+ two different ways.
1.  If the mouse-type devices (rotary/spinner/ or trackball) are USB, the OS win98 or winME, and directX 8.0 or higher installed, Analog+ can see the USB devices as individual devices, and you can set each player to any of these devices (or the "system mouse" too).  However, since the optipac is a serial device, it will only be part of the "system mouse", so it won't work. :(
or
2.  If one rotary is on the X-axis, the other on the Y-axis, Analog+ can map one to player one and the other to player two.  I think optipac has a setting where you can do this.  Also, EMU+ used to have a similar feature (see http://www.oscarcontrols.com/support_spinner.htm#X-Y%20Split%20Axis for more details), but EMU+ is not be developed any more.

Quote
If I were able to have the 2 spinners, 2 trackballs and 2 rotarys on on panel the optipac only has 4 inputs and will only use 2 at a time (I think) - so I would be better off not having all together  ???
Any recommendations on how I should tackle this.  I realise it's extremely difficult (and expensive) to get panels to cover everything but I would like to come close.

Are there any games that require the rotary optical joystick and 4/8 way joystick, or spinner, or trackball?
If not I could put the rotarys on the 4 player panel and have the 2 spinners, 2 trackballs and 2 4/8 way joysticks on the second panel.

I don't think any game use a rotary joystick & a spinner, or a rotary & a trackball.  So your suggestion sounds okay, as long as you can find a good place for everything. ;)

Note, however, the limit to one trackball with standard windows mame.  Dos mame can have two trackballs if you set up the drivers and system correctly, but I don't know about 2 trackballs + 2 spinners at the same time.

Mame:Analog+ is programmed to see 8 USB mouse-type input devices plus the "system mouse", can use any four at a time, and you can assign which player uses which device game-to-game.  (However, I have only been able to test 3 mice at a time, so far)

Quote
I know I keep asking this type of question but I would like to sort out the requirements on the panels before I go ahead and lay it out.

Thanks to u_rebelscum and jerryjanis for your responses.
Any more help would be fantastic.
Cheers
-cdbrown

You're welcome.  

I'm trying to design my multiple trackball cp right now (I'm thinking three trackballs ATM), and just got a hold of two ls-30 joysticks, so I am very interested in what other people say, too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Robin
Knowledge is Power

cdbrown

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1242
  • Last login:October 16, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
  • Bowowow
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2002, 07:26:25 pm »
Thanks u_rebelscum for the help.  But now there's more questions and trouble  :-/. This message is going to be long
Quote

This is true for standard mame(w).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »

cdbrown

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1242
  • Last login:October 16, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
  • Bowowow
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2002, 03:12:26 am »
I found out there are serial to usb converter but they seem expensive.
Is this what I should be looking at
Quote
USB-COM * Adds serial port via USB connection * Easy serial port expansion with plug & play * Requires no IRQ, DMA, I/O port * Eliminates IRQ conflict and reserves system resources * Installed as standard Windows COM port * Compatible with new & legacy RS-232 devices * Serial port speed up to 921.6K bps * Full PS-232 modem control signals * RS-232 data signals: TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR, DCD, RI GND * RS-232 connectors: DB9 male connector * Serial port is individually configurable * Adds more oirts conveniently as needs grow * Bus- powered. No external port supply needed.

This is $61 AUS.

Makes getting 2 kidsballs quite expensive.

u_rebelscum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3633
  • Last login:April 21, 2010, 03:06:26 pm
  • You rebel scum
    • Mame:Analog+
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2002, 05:22:18 am »
Quote
Thanks u_rebelscum for the help.  But now there's more questions and trouble  :-/. This message is going to be long

That's what I get for writing a long answer in the first place. :D  Just be prepared for a longer answer message. ;D

Quote
[This is true for standard mame(w).  The windows OS combines all mouse inputs into one "system mouse", and mame can only see that one mouse.]
Is this for all OS?

Yes, for all windows OS, and standard mame.  (I'm not an expert on Unix or other OSs)

Anyway, all windows OSs, and I bet most other OSs too, there is a "system mouse" that is the combination of all mouse-type devices.  This makes sense in most cases; this way, all mice can control the mouse pointer on the screen in any application without the application needing to have special code to handle more than one mouse.

Dos (not through a dos box in windows, though) can have the mice separate with the optimouse driver and a normal dos mouse drive, or some other drivers (some old dos logitech drivers used to).  With the mice separate, however, each application needs to have special code to handle the extra mice.  Dos mame has that special code.

Win98 & WinME, with directX 8 and USB mice, can let applications see each USB mouse separately (if you have special code), as well as the "system mouse" (no special needed).  Mame:Analog+ has that "special" code, but can see the "system mouse" inaddition to each USB mouse.

I hope this answers what you're asking.

Quote
I'm going to use win98, the trackballs are kidsball which are serial as well.  Is there any point to having the optipac ???

Not for the two trackballs.  
You might want it for the optical rotaries and spinners (but I don't have an optipac so this might be wrong).  The happs optical rotaries just put out raw data, and the optipac translates the data from the rotary to serial data that the computer can read.  If the spinners are already in  a PC compatible format (serial, ps/2 or USB) they might not need the optipac either, but if the data is "raw" like the rotaries use the optipac.

Quote
[2.  If one rotary is on the X-axis, the other on the Y-axis, Analog+ can map one to player one and the other to player two.  I think optipac has a setting where you can do this.  Also, EMU+ used to have a similar feature]
so this only works for 2 spinners or 2 rotarys or 1 trackball.

... do to the one system mouse of windows, yyyyes  (if I understand the question).

Let me see if I understand you correctly.  Assuming: one optipac, win98, and mame:Analog+ (windows);  not all opticals are on the same cp (like your suggested layout earier);  you have some swap connetion for when you change cps, and the rotaries are on the same port # (one X, one Y) and the spinners on one port #.
Now:
1.  Since optipac is serial, all inputs from it will be grouped together by windows, so you need either EMU+ or analog+ to map the Y axis to player2.
2.  Since optipac is serial and the trackballs are serial, windows will effectively limit you to using one trackball at a time whether they goes through optipac or not.
3.  So, yes, you are limited to using only 2 rotaries, or 2 spinners, or one trackball at a time with this setup.

Quote
I guess I would be better to hook the rotarys and spinners to the optipac and the trackballs be USB connections ???

I got this off the ultimarc site...

Now I'm really confused  :o.  OK 2 rotarys (on cp1) and 2 spinners (on cp2) connected to optipac using the x/y-axis split to allow two players.  Now the kidsball connect to the serial - is there a serial to usb connector and would this work (using analog+).

Please help  :-[

Ahhh, I have seen a comple different serial to USB adapters, and they should work with analog+.  Which raises a new option that you might like:  get two, three or four of these adapters, one for each trackball, and zero, one or two for the optipac.  (this can run pretty high, the adapters I saw were ~$50, IIRC).  

With four adapters, Mame:Analog+ will see the trackballs and the optipac serial ports all as separate inputs.  You need to map which device is used by which player, but no need for splitting X/Y axes.

With three adapters, Mame:Analog+ will see the trackballs separate from each other and from the optipac.  Then the optipac data can be axis split for mapping them to players 1 & 2, and you should make sure the trackballs are goin to the correct players.

With two adapters, Mame:Analog+ will see the trackballs separate from each other, but the optipac data will still have the trackball data merged with it's, so you can't use the trackballs with the rotaries or spinners at the same time.  Again, the optipac data can be axis split for mapping them to players 1 & 2, and you should make sure the trackballs are goin to the correct players.  (this is like you discribe here)

Problem with adapters is they add a little lag time, and may cause some data garbling.  I haven't tried any adapter, so I can't tell you how good or bad they are at this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
Robin
Knowledge is Power

Tiger-Heli

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5447
  • Last login:January 03, 2018, 02:19:23 pm
  • Ron Howard? . . . er, I mean . . . Run, Coward!!!
    • Tiger-Heli
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2002, 08:08:09 am »
Hi CdBrown,

I'm getting into this thread late but I want to throw some ideas at you!!!

You cannot connect a kidsball directly to an Optipac.  The kidsball is basically a mouse.  The optipac replaces the mouse electronics when connecting a standard opto-rotary device.  The way it was explained (by Andy) to me is "Think of the I-PAC as replacing a keyboard Hack and the Opti-PAC as replacing a mouse hack".

You could ditch the kidsball electronics, add in Happ trackball optic boards (and maybe change the encoder wheels) and then connect the kidsball to the opti-pac, if you really wanted to.

You could also ditch the kidsball electronics, gut a USB mouse, connect it to the kidsball, and have a USB kidsball for roughly $5.00 instead of the $60.00 for a serial to USB adapter.  www.cheeptech.com has good generic info on doing this with an Atari trackball in the Hackball write-up.

You could also do this to make your rotary joysticks and spinners USB, if this helped you out.

The USB opti-pac will be a great product, but I don't know when it will be available.  The current opti-pac does pretty well limit you to DOS mame.  (DOS mame does run under Win'98 without a reboot, btw).

The main advantage to the Opti-pac is you can have your 2 trackballs, two spinners, and two rotary joysticks all hooked up and whichever one you start using will work.  This way, you don't have to be constantly connecting and disconnecting USB devices to get the proper configuration for each game.

The cost of the opti-pac at $40.00 IIRC is more than the 4 gutted mice (one each kidsball, one for spinners (Spinner 1-x axis, Spinner 2-Y axis), and one for rotary joys (same config as spinners)),  but the convenience might make it worthwhile.

Also, other than convenience, nothing says you have to only have one version of MAME on your cab.  You could for example run mamew 0.60, mamed 0.60, mame Analog+ 0.60, and MAME EMU+ v36b13 (I think it stopped at that), or any combination and select the version you need for the particular games that require the odd configuration.

Hopefully I haven't totally lost you, but I should have at least given you some more things to consider.  Post again if I lost you somewhere along the lines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

cdbrown

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1242
  • Last login:October 16, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
  • Bowowow
Re: Some help please re controls
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2002, 08:06:45 pm »
u_rebelscum and Tiger-Heli - you guys are great thanks for all the help  ;D.

At the moment the plan is (sorry if I keep repeating myself)
1. Three interchangeable control panels
- 4 player, 2 8 way supers and 2 optical rotary 8 way
- 2 player, 2 spinners, 2 t-stik (or j-stik)
- 2 player, 2 trackballs (kidsballs)

Will have the i-pac for the joysticks and buttons and still looking at the optipac for the spinners and rotarys.  Will have a closer look at the usb mouse hack for the kidsball as I like that idea (cheap and it will probably be the only hack I do).  Will also check out the mouse hack for the spinners and rotary but at the moment I'm leaning towards the optipac considering I'm already getting stuff from them and it's easy.  

Now just have to work out which mame progs to use (my current system is w2k so have to set up something else with win98).  Thanks again for all the advice.

Cheers
-cdbrown
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by 1026619200 »