I finally got a pin...RESTORED AND LOVING IT.

[ChadTower]

2n3055 is a power amp transistor... so if you're in doubt, swap it, I'd say.

Yeah, pins are a LOT more fun than cabs.  You're starting with good electrical knowledge, too, which is making it pretty fast.

Be careful around those spider chips on the cpu board.  IIRC they're custom to Gottlieb and the only replacements are pulls from other boards.

[alexred]

I have a Gottlieb Count-Down from the same era.  You should really consider replacing the power supply with a new RottenDog.  All new components and all the ground mods are built in.  That or get one of Pascals boards that replace everything. 

[ChadTower]

That will make it bulletproof - though he still has to do all of the connector refurb work.  It will make it costly, as well.  If I do that with my Sinbad, and I'm considering it, I will still repair all of the original boards.  So he may as well keep going, IMO.

[shardian]

I have a Gottlieb Count-Down from the same era.  You should really consider replacing the power supply with a new RottenDog.  All new components and all the ground mods are built in.  That or get one of Pascals boards that replace everything. 

I'd really prefer to learn and fix the existing boards. Plus, I just don't have the finances to get the Pi1 X4 (though that would be ideal). My power supply is missing diodes and resistors in several areas, so I'm gonna have to learn to read electrical schematics REALLY good to figure out where and what to replace with.

In the end though, I might go ahead and get a replacement power supply. That is really the first line of defense.

[shardian]

Ok, I did the battery acid corrosion damage control on the MPU. There were some resistors and one of the spider chips that had corrosion on their legs. I'm not too sure how much effect that will have, but I did my best, and as you can see in the first pic, most of the corrosion is gone on the spider ship, though there appears to be some white buildup down at the board level. There were some traces that were corroded as shown in the second pic. On the back, pretty much all of the bottom pins were badly corroded. You can see from the last pic that I had to sand down to copper on all  but the far left few. I'll tin all of those connectors over the next few days. I really, really, really hope I can salvage my MPU board as I really, really, really don't want to have to plunk down $200 on a new replacement. And I'll tell you, salvaging those spider chips from another board would be damn near impossible to do without damaging them somewhere along the line.

[ChadTower]

That's actually not too bad.  I've seen much worse boards come back to life.

[Wade]

You guys are crazy.  Arcades are far more fun than pins.  The only good thing about pin repair is that most of it is well documented on the net and if you can read, you can probably repair the problem.  Drawback, Video game boards are usually harder to repair and thus replacement or professional repair are often needed.

Here's why you're both crazy.  First of all, Video games are usually easier to clean up and restore (excepting the PCB's).  Second, usually after a restore, a video is far more reliable than a pin.  Third, even though a pin might work 100% electrically, that doesn't mean it plays well.  I've played SO many 100% working pins that actually play like crap, because some mechs or coils are worn.  And even after replacing all the worn parts, they still usually take a lot of "tweaking" to really get them playing well.  My 2 current pins are great examples, they both have nagging problems even though they work electronically.  And even when they truly work flawlessly, it's only a matter of a couple hundred plays before something breaks again or goes out of adjustment.  That's the nature of a mechanical device that contains at least one heavy steel ball that is constantly being thrown at.  Sometimes a half dozen balls.  Even a well sorted game will play funny if it's pushed a little off level or what not.  Videogames rarely have these issues, either they work or they don't and either they are clean/restored or they aren't.

I won't even get started on gameplay...

Really though.  I think that was a pretty good purchase for the money.  Pins are fun to play, and they tend to get more fun the more you play (and the better player you become).  With a pin in your house, you'll find yourself playing a lot more pins in the wild, and kicking butt on them too.  You'll start winning replays almost every time you play an operated pin.  Again, that makes it even more fun too.   It's not really about winning the virtual $0.50 but just knowing you can "beat the machine."  I hardly play any modern videogames out any more, but I always play the pins.  After all, pins are still basically the same as they were 30 years ago, not much of a learning curve.  I haven't been "up" on the new video games for about 15 years so I hardly play them except for an occasional novelty.

TTYL,
Wade

[shardian]

The documentation is why I am having so much fun. With the vids, I spend hours and hours doing research, searching for parts ( if anyone has a spare Xevious bezel PLEASE hookme up! ), etc. With this pin, I just printed out the basic pin guide, and the specific sys. 1 repair guide and dug in.

I've also noticed that the wife isn't getting too upset with me working on the pin. She has said she doesn't care too much for the video games because she doesn't like staring at a monitor. I am thinking she is really looking forward to having "her"pin.

[ChadTower]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.   

[Crowquill]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.  

Definitely not the best way to start but he has some good points.

I really want a pin but repairs scares the out of me. Replacing a Xevious bezel may be tough, but replacing some of the plastics in a pin can be even harder.

OTOH, it'll be a whole new learning experience (which I welcome), but I won't be able to skate by without improving my soldering skills like I can on a video. Someday I'll stumble onto a decently-priced pin and be forced to face my fears 

Looks like you got a nice-looking pin and a good handle on getting it going. I'm sure your wife will love "her" pin.

[ChadTower]

Replacing a playfield plastic is easier than replacing a bezel.  Can be done in 30 seconds without even hurrying.

[shardian]

Replacing a playfield plastic is easier than replacing a bezel.  Can be done in 30 seconds without even hurrying.

I think he meant sourcing the parts.

[ChadTower]

For the most part, but pinball is a labor of love.  I bought myself a good scroll saw for making my own plastics.  Haven't done it yet but should work out well.  I also plan on making plastic protectors for most if not all of my games.

[Wade]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.   

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts. If you read past the first few sentences, you'd see that the insult was really tongue-in-cheek.

Crowquill, pin repairs are very doable and help is so well documented on the net.  I wouldn't let it scare you off, though I felt similar to you before getting my first pin.  I've had lots of problems with my pins and managed to repair them.  Also, there are whole families of games (such as Williams WPC) where the vast majority of repair information will be the same for all games from that family.  This makes the online repair guides even more useful.

IMO, the bigger problem with pins is there are a lot of spendy collectors and some of the parts prices are ridiculous.  For example, a set of ramps or plastics easily costs as much as a complete working video game (or two).  Cabinet art for a pin, typically $250-300, versus < $100 for a video game, etc.  This isn't as big of a deal if you don't mind some broken parts and a little wear... but if you want to make/keep your pins really clean and sharp, you have to be willing to spend some bucks!

Wade

[ChadTower]

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts.

I will miss some good posts, but for the most part on the internet, if a person can't even get one sentence in without an insult then their post is only going to go downhill from there.  I filter out a whole lot more useless crap than quality content with this rule.

BTW, your post is good, I fully agree.  I like to live with a little wear.  I'm getting into making my own plastics now and that should help my pins a good amount.

[shardian]

Crowquill, pin repairs are very doable and help is so well documented on the net.  I wouldn't let it scare you off, though I felt similar to you before getting my first pin.  I've had lots of problems with my pins and managed to repair them.  Also, there are whole families of games (such as Williams WPC) where the vast majority of repair information will be the same for all games from that family.  This makes the online repair guides even more useful.

Yeah I was worried about getting a pin too. When I sit back and look at what I have already done with the pin, I am amazed. I mean, I have taken sandpaper to a frikkin circuit board along with dousing them in liquids...according to the directions! I couldn't imagine coming to the conclusion to do either of those things to a board on my own.
The documentation on marvin3m and thisoldpinball is very high quality stuff. I still can't believe that I don't have to pay for it either.

[shardian]

Well, I read the section on setting up a test bench for the cpu this morning and to say the least, I don't see the point. Basically, if you put iton a test bech and the board doesn't boot up, you are ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. The only thing the testing will do is let you know which chip ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- you.
So, I think I'll save myself the effort and the cost of a logic probe and just concentrate on the power supply. The CPU either works or it don't. Then I'll just wait until Christmas and ask the wife for one of Pacal Janin's boards.

[ChadTower]

Test benches are good when you do batches of boards.  For only one machine, the pin itself is your test bench.

[shardian]

Test benches are good when you do batches of boards.  For only one machine, the pin itself is your test bench.

Well I guess test bench is a poor term in this case. All I have to do is solder in an led and hook up +5 volts and -12 volts from a pc power supply with alligator clips to safely test the cpu. Safely meaning I'm guaranteed to get  proper voltages from a pc supply and not worrying about getting spider chip destroying feedback from stuck coils.

[ChadTower]

Where is this technique shown?  I haven't seen that yet.

[shardian]

Where is this technique shown?  I haven't seen that yet.

It is in the system1 repair manual over at marvin3m. You can just use alligator clips to supply power at two cap locations, then just dabble with either a logic probe, or a DMM. It would take like 10 minutes tops to diagnose the entire board. It took me less than 10 minutes to test the entire driver board using the extremely detailed instructions in the manual.

[Wade]

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts.

I will miss some good posts, but for the most part on the internet, if a person can't even get one sentence in without an insult then their post is only going to go downhill from there.  I filter out a whole lot more useless crap than quality content with this rule.

BTW, your post is good, I fully agree.  I like to live with a little wear.  I'm getting into making my own plastics now and that should help my pins a good amount.

I'm just ribbing you, really, I generally do the same thing about posts with insults.

I go back and forth on if I want to try to make my games as nice as possible, or just live with well playing, functional games with wear.  I definitely started out wanting everything to be mint, and have loosened up a bit over time, but if I had my way all of my games really would be mint.

Wade

[ChadTower]

Usually, I'm cool with wear, unless it is excessive.  I enjoy the restoration process, though, and see it as a hobby issue.  They don't have to be perfect for me to enjoy them but I do enjoy the process of making them better as much as I do playing them.

[shardian]

Just won a "good" power supply off of ebay. I use quotes because the seller worded the auction in the usual way with vintage electronics. They won't go out on a limb and say it is working, but odds are it is. Either way, all of the components are there and it looks way better than mine and the price was right.
I also won a Tenma soldering station yesterday, so next week I should be delving head first into seeing if this badboy works.

[ChadTower]

Heh, I just won a Hakko desoldering station on ebay.  Good stuff.

[shardian]

Heh, I just won a Hakko desoldering station on ebay.  Good stuff.

Did you win it for $36.03? If so, thanks for beating me because I got my Tenma for $28 shipped because I lost that.

[ChadTower]

No, it was $61 + $15 ship, but a temp controlled vacuum pump desoldering station is more expensive.  This one.  A good price.

[shardian]

Oh, you said DE-soldering.

[shardian]

Looks like I about have everything in to get started. I have to order a new iron for the soldering station, but I found my B&D pencil iron, and that will work fine for the non-pcb stuff I have to do until the station is up and running. The new(used) power supply is in excellent condition, but I'm still going to replace the neccessary caps and the big transistor.

I should have a fair good amount of updates over the next week.

[shardian]

Ha, no more worries about the mpu. I just picked up two nice condition spares on ebay for less than $30. Some guy was selling like 10 different system 1 boards. I won the ones with the least popular game chips I suppose, as some of the others went for considerably more cash.

[shardian]

Last update for the night: I finished rebuilding the original power supply, with the exception of one zener diode I have to pick up from Rat Shack on the way home tomorrow. So now I'll have two good power supply's, and most likely a few working mpu's. I'd say I am in good shape to have a working pin for years.

One question though. Anyone know for sure which side on a xicon axial capacitor is negative? It has a black stripe down one side with negative signs and what appears to be arrows pointing to side lead with what I would call an extra "nub" at the base.

[ChadTower]

Sounds like they marked the negative side... that's fine.  Worst case is you install it backwards and it either doesn't work or actually pops when you power it, depending on why it's there.

Could you give me the url to the ebay auction?  I'd like to peek at those boards.  I may make you an offer on one of them if the MPU in my Sinbad is crap when I get to it.

[shardian]

I set up my mpu for testing, and unfortunately, it appears to not be booting. All is not lost though...yet. There is a list of things I can check that ARE replaceable before I throw in the towel. Just don't have the time right now.

And Chad, the setup for the testing is very easy. Youmight as well give it a shot. It's safer than popping it in the machine because there are no coils to lock on and destroy the board.

[shardian]

A word of advice for anyone ever going to work on a Gottlieb System1 pin: When the repair manual says get the molex pin extractor tool, get the mother ---smurfing--- tool! ( I am doing just fine without the crimper tool though. )
I thought I could save $15 and just use whatever I had around the house. I fiddled around with various tools and found that a sturdy safety pin worked fairly well. Well my brilliant move means I now spend at least five minutes pulling each pin! I screwed up one that now I can't extract and I had to quit for the night due to frustration and my fingers are hurting.

[ChadTower]

If you're just going to replace the pins, you can cut the wires and slide them all out of the front end.  You don't need to be so careful with the pins you're going to throw away.

[shardian]

If you're just going to replace the pins, you can cut the wires and slide them all out of the front end.  You don't need to be so careful with the pins you're going to throw away.

If it was that easy, the guide wouldn't tell you to waste your money on a pin extractor.
Since you are going to do the same thing to your sinbad, go ahead and try to remove a pin yourself. They don't come out the top. These are not trifurcon pins on which you can access the retaining clip from the back. Those are easy.

[ChadTower]

Oh wait, are these the edge contact pins or the ones in molex connectors?

[shardian]

Oh wait, are these the edge contact pins or the ones in molex connectors?

These are for the edge connectors.

[ChadTower]

You're right, those ones are a pain without the right tool.

[shardian]

You're right, those ones are a pain without the right tool.

You have one I could borrow?
For that fact, anyone have one I can borrow?

I've already done my mouser order , so it would cost me like $20 shipped now for the one frikking thing.