direct draw vs direct 3d (with arcade vga screens)

[scurvy]

i'm using arcade vga and a betson multi sync 27"

Arcade vga recommend these settings for mame:
Direct Draw
Switch resolutions to fit
This is the image i get:



When i use Direct 3d and uncheck switch resolutions to fit i get this:


I prefer the second image, its almost exactly the same minus the harsh scan lines.
Arcade VGA takes away the blurriness of direct 3d. Any reason why i shouldnt use it?

Here is an image without using Arcade Vga, you can see its more blurry.


another thing is when i use direct draw i get really bad controller lag..

[ahofle]

Just my opinion, but if you prefer the blurry, non-authentic looks of image 2 or 3, you've completely wasted your money on an arcade monitor and an ArcadeVGA.  You'd be better off with an LCD or TV.

[scurvy]

image 2 isnt blurry at all, might be hard to tell.

[shorthair]

I prefer my high-res monitors - arcade or presentation - regardless if running hwstretch or native.

scurvy: I'd say you have an effect running at the same time or something. We need to 1) know what version of Mame you're using, and  2) see what your mame ini settings are.

[scurvy]

i'm using mame 32 0.109

is there a way to set all games to have switch resolutions unchecked? even if you go through the menu for all games and uncheck it doesnt work. 

I simply cant use direct draw, it lags my system really bad for some unknown reason.

[siddhartha]

First off, I would recommend using a program like MAME Plus! (http://mame.emu-zone.org/) with a loader/menu program like AdvanceMENU (http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/menu-readme.html). Using MAME32 consumes unnecessary resources on your computer and there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to use DirectDraw with a decent CPU.

My hardware setup is simply: 2GHz Dual Core 3800+ X2 with 512MB of RAM. I can use DirectDraw on all non-3D games without any problems (for example, all Mortal Kombat flavours run perfectly).

Second, you should get a decent CPU if you don't have one that is at least 2GHz. They are very cheap right now with a lot of 2.5+ GHz dual core AMDs going for less than $200. Remember that MAME is CPU intensive, and it really isn't going to matter which video card you have -- it's all about processor cycles.

Well, actually, not really. When you use DirectDraw, MAME could basically care less about your video card as everything is handled by the CPU. When you use Direct3D, however, your video card factors in more as far as stretching and display of the frames. Direct3D allows better performance of some games that are nearly impossible to play with DirectDraw unless you have a supercomputer. So, why use DirectDraw? Because it provides the most authentic experience. This is what your ArcadeVGA is doing -- it's providing you with authentic resolutions on your authentic arcade monitor. If you simply use Direct3D, then you don't need an ArcadeVGA and you certainly don't need an arcade monitor. You just wasted your money.

All is not lost, however. Like I said, switch to MAME Plus!. Make sure that you have the latest drivers (off the CD) available for the ArcadeVGA. Just to be sure, I would do a clean install of your computer. Make sure you also have the TriSync utility (http://www.ultimarc.com/AVGA_TriSync.exe) and the QuickRes utility (http://www.ultimarc.com/quickres.exe) for the ArcadeVGA. You'll also need to run the AVRes utility (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=104088) to configure all the .ini files for each of your MAME roms to the proper resolutions.

Finally, you should setup your mame.ini file as follows (note that I've left out a bunch of sections, these are the most important):

Code: [Select]

#
# PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
autoframeskip             1
frameskip                 0
frames_to_run             0
throttle                  1
sleep                     0
rdtsc                     0
priority                  1
multithreading            1

#
# VIDEO OPTIONS
#
video                     ddraw
numscreens                1
window                    0
maximize                  1
keepaspect                1
prescale                  0
effect                    none
scale_effect              none
pause_brightness          0.650000
waitvsync                 0
syncrefresh               0

#
# DIRECTDRAW-SPECIFIC OPTIONS
#
hwstretch                 0

#
# FULL SCREEN OPTIONS
#
triplebuffer              0
switchres                 1
full_screen_brightness    1.000000
full_screen_contrast      1.000000
full_screen_gamma         1.000000

For most games, this works fine. The triplebuffer setting I have set to zero globally (in the mame.ini file), and will enable it locally on some games (e.g. Paperboy). The reason is because on certain games, without triple buffering, there will be significant 'tearing' of the graphics on the screen. In other games, however, setting triplebuffer to one will cause the audio to become choppy. This happens most notably on CPU-intensive games like Marvel vs. Capcom.
You can change any setting in the mame.ini at the game-level by going to the appropriate game .ini file in the ini folder (e.g. ini/paperboy.ini).

Even at the end of your troubleshooting, if you find that your CPU is just too slow for some games and you don't want to purchase a new one, I would enable Direct3D for those games in the game's .ini file, leaving the 'authentic' settings for all other, older games.

The separate question of which looks better, i.e. DirectDraw vs. Direct3D is up to you. Everyone I have over loves the original look of the games caused by the scanlines using DirectDraw at the authentic resolutions. If, however, you think Direct3D is more attractive, then return your arcade monitor and ArcadeVGA and invest in a larger computer monitor and better video card. You'll find a computer monitor will last a lot longer, is cheaper to replace, and can display higher resolutions when using Direct3D.

[alienware32]

i agree with siddhartha its what you prefer i have a  radeon x1300 with componet with a jvc tv and i am very happy with this setup

[ahofle]

You'll find a computer monitor will last a lot longer

Why is that?

[shorthair]

I think ya all are missing something here. He doesn't know his way around the global properties of Mame32, he's not gonna be able to know something more exotic, let alone if he has to set parametres in an ini.

Sheesh. Dude, explore all the parametres of Mame32, first. See what happens, then come back if you have any questions. However, before you venture off, what are your computer specs and what version and type of AVGA are you using?

[siddhartha]

You'll find a computer monitor will last a lot longer

Why is that?

From talking with others and the manufacturers (Billabs) themselves, a decent crt computer monitor will last a lot longer than any multi-sync arcade monitor made today. Regardless, computer monitors are FAR, FAR cheaper and you can replace at least three before you hit the cost of an arcade monitor. Again though, if you want authenticity, an arcade monitor is the way to go.

[scurvy]

computer specs are 2.0ghz pentium 4, 768 ram, onboard audio.

i have AVGA2 with the latest drivers.

All i'm really trying to say is that direct 3d and direct draw look exactly the same with AVGA2 card, when setup to the right settings.  The only difference is scan lines.  previous when i had an nvidia video card, everything was very blurry and it was obvious stuff was being stretched.

personally with mame setup how AVGA recommends, it makes me naseous.  The screen to me is very flickery and hard to see with the scan lines, and the high pitch sound from the monitor bothers me.. maybe i have overly sensitive senses..

[ahofle]

All i'm really trying to say is that direct 3d and direct draw look exactly the same with AVGA2 card, when setup to the right settings.  The only difference is scan lines.  previous when i had an nvidia video card, everything was very blurry and it was obvious stuff was being stretched.

That's not true at all.  Using direct3D stretches the game image and adds anti-aliasing.  The only way to avoid it is to disable bilinear filtering, but then you get horrid scaling artifacts.  You should try your comparisons on an older game like Robotron or Joust where you can actually see the difference easier. 
BTW, you should force your MAME resolution for Mortal Kombat to 401x256 when using ddraw if you aren't already doing so.  I'll try to post a pic of Mortal Kombat at 401x256 with ddraw, but I don't recall seeing any bad scanlines or anything else that would make me nauseous.

[siddhartha]

Since you have a very adequate computer setup, I would recommend doing what I suggested in the previous post, in particular making the changes to your mame.ini file. There is absolutely no reason you should experience ANY lag with that setup on games like MK2.

The high pitch whine from your arcade monitor is most likely a problem with the flyback transformer's feret core (see many posts on this forum regarding this).

You should, however, notice a clear difference between DirectDraw and Direct3D. If you are used to playing computer games (as opposed to games in the arcade), you might be more accustomed to Direct3D because of the lack of scanlines and the higher resolution and refresh rate. As I have always said, DirectDraw should look authentic, just like the original MK2 did in the arcades. With Direct3D, you are simply scaling the picture to 1024x768 (or whatever standard resolution) and adding some rendering effects to smooth out the picture. There is no reason to have an arcade monitor to do this as you are playing all your games at a high resolution and refresh rate. A standard computer monitor can accomplish this better than an arcade monitor can. If you don't like DirectDraw, I strongly urge you to return your arcade monitor because that was a big chunk of cash that might have been better spent elsewhere in your cab.

[Silver]

I think one of the issues is that you are not comparing like with like - it looks like you are running the same game at different resolutions.

This is probably because you are using a multi-sync that supports 15Khz and 31Khz+ frequencies, so you have a huge number of ways of displaying the same game.

Also in D3D mode I belive the 'prescale' option with have a large impact on the smoothness/blockiness mentioned.

[ahofle]

Also in D3D mode I belive the 'prescale' option with have a large impact on the smoothness/blockiness mentioned.

AFAIK, there is no way to have a true pixel accurate image with D3D (I asked over at mame.net).  I still don't fully understand why that is.

[siddhartha]

i still think picture one looks the best.

[scurvy]

ok i was just messing around, you guys are right, direct draw is the way to go. my problem now is triple buffering.. if i turn it off i get screen tearing, and if i leave it on.. thats what was causing my controller lag..

[ahofle]

ok i was just messing around, you guys are right, direct draw is the way to go. my problem now is triple buffering.. if i turn it off i get screen tearing, and if i leave it on.. thats what was causing my controller lag..

I haven't found a cure-all to this problem either.  I'm not sure if this isn't a MAME problem (I also sometimes get bad lag and timing problems with triple buffering).  You can also try to 'sync to monitor refresh'.  This works sometimes if the resolution you have selected has the exact same refresh rate as the game (I believe the 401x256 mortal kombat mode Andy added to the ArcadeVGA is timed specifically for MK at 53Hz). 

[siddhartha]

my problem now is triple buffering.. if i turn it off i get screen tearing, and if i leave it on.. thats what was causing my controller lag..

As I said above, leave triple buffering off in the mame.ini and then enable it in individual game .ini files (in the ini folder) that have the problem. You might also notice better performance with MAME Plus!.

[scurvy]

this is where my problem is.. its visible in every game i play (i might be being picky but its annoying) aside from pacman and galaga.. i will look into mame plus

i get lag issues with any of these on

triple buffering
sync to monitor refresh
wait for vertical sync

[siddhartha]

You should also rerun the AVRes utility (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=104088) so the resolutions for the mame games are set appropriately.

Also, make sure you have throttling turned on in mame.ini.

You should be able to turn on triple buffering for any pre-90's game with no lag issues. If you have lag issues with these games, I would look to any background process that could be slowing down the computer.

[Scottk]

Hi scurvy,

I have the same setup as you.
Betson 27inch + AVGA version 2 (PCI Express)

I haven't noticed the "screen tearing" too much, except in one of my favorite games:
Vs. ExciteBike.

So I do what Siddartha is recommending.
I leave Triple Buffering off as the default, then turn it on for the oddball games that need it.

BTW, Mame32 really sucks for Arcade Monitors.
(Plus, it doesn't use the same CMDline based mame stuff, as regular mame, so the people
at mame.net turn people away as SOON as you mention mame32)

I currently use Emu Loader as a frontend, which calls the stock mame.exe CMD line based program.
The frontend is pretty good.

Although I hear that GameEX is really the "best" for arcade monitors...
I just haven't gotten around trying it yet...

As for your high pitched whine, I can't say I have ever heard that on any game I have played...
Is it noticable on every game? Or just some?
If its just some game, I could try that game and let you know if I hear it as well...

Scott

[ahofle]

I haven't noticed the "screen tearing" too much, except in one of my favorite games:
Vs. ExciteBike.

Try forcing res to 256x240, refresh 60hz, disable triple buffering, and enable sync to monitor refresh. 

[shorthair]

I've never had that problem on Excitebike. However, for scurvy, one of his problems may be his version is too high for his computer. Despite the very ample memory of the avga2, a 2ghz cpu doesn't seem enough for Mame versions after the video re-write. It seems a great many who have cabs use fairly to very low versions of Mame; On my 1.8 P4, I use .104, but it's before the re-write.

On triplebuffer: using this seems to always remedy tearing. It can slow things down, though, in which case you may hear sound errors. Again, an earlier Mame version can help.

On Mame32 vs cmd mame: you have to remember that the mame.net folks are cmd heads. Personally, in some fe cases, I've had better video performance from Mame32 than cmd; otherwise, I've seen no difference. Plus, if you want to edit and test something, Mame32 is far easier to use.

[scurvy]

I actually use gameex as my frontend.. its a great prog.. but i wont go on about it.  But of course when i launch an arcade game in gameex it launches mame32 (although you never actually see the mame32 interface, which is the whole point)  So, i suppose i'm just going to have to deal with a bit of tearing, the remedies for it don't seem to work, as they slow down games like mortal kombat.  As for the high-pitch noise, its on all arcade games, it might just be noticeable because of the exposed monitor right now.. it is not yet in the cab.

[siddhartha]

If you are using a frontend, DEFINITELY use a command line version of MAME. It will take up less resources.

As for the monitor whine, try this: http://www.arcaderestoration.com/index.asp?OPT=3&DATA=57&CBT=24

[shorthair]

If you are using a frontend, DEFINITELY use a command line version of MAME. It will take up less resources.

Yeah, maybe this is your problem. I don't have this problem on my gaming rig, but it's a very recent 2.8 P4 with a fast motherboard.

As for the monitor whine, try this: http://www.arcaderestoration.com/index.asp?OPT=3&DATA=57&CBT=24

Hmm. We each have a multi-sync of different brand, so I wouldn't think this would be an 'issue'. I'll have a look at it, though.

[genesim]

Man scurvy, you seem to have this all flipped around.

The first shot is the best shot because it is the closest to true resolution.

Though I do wonder if you have the resolution set to the 401x256(as I remember and another pointed out) of mortal kombat.

It isn't important that everything is "smoothed out".  You want it to look SHARP and boxy.   

Look at the letter in the first pics compared to the others that are "blurry". 

sync to monitor refresh rate slows it all down, and produces weird effects if you don't have a fast enough computer.

[wpcmame]

AFAIK, there is no way to have a true pixel accurate image with D3D (I asked over at mame.net).  I still don't fully understand why that is.

Because Aaron says it is not necessary. I implemented it myself and submitted the patch to mame a year ago. It works fine in my cabinet and has the added benefit that you can can get the artwork cropped to screen size instead of game size (e.g. Space invaders runs pixel accurate with artwork filling the rest of the screen).

[ahofle]

AFAIK, there is no way to have a true pixel accurate image with D3D (I asked over at mame.net).  I still don't fully understand why that is.

Because Aaron says it is not necessary. I implemented it myself and submitted the patch to mame a year ago. It works fine in my cabinet and has the added benefit that you can can get the artwork cropped to screen size instead of game size (e.g. Space invaders runs pixel accurate with artwork filling the rest of the screen).

Dammit, that sucks.  Do you have a diff?  I'd like to check this out.  Why did he deem it not necessary?  I thought he wanted to completely get rid of ddraw anyway, and it sounds like this patch would have done that.

[Silver]

I vaguely remember reading something about the fact that you can not guarentee the pixel accuracy of using D3D anyway (based on driver optimizaitions). However, I have absolutely no idea if this is true or not. Nor if ddraw is any better.

[wpcmame]

Dammit, that sucks.  Do you have a diff?  I'd like to check this out.

I attach a diff for mame115 here. It includes some other small changes but they don't affect anything.

The interesting thing is the cleanstretch option. It is available both on the command line (-cleanstretch none|horiz|vert|both) and in the video menu.

Don't forget to turn off d3d filtering.

The cleanstretch patch is made to the core renderer and isn't connected to d3d. It works with gdi as well.

Why did he deem it not necessary?

Maybe "not invented here" :-)

Think it was Haze who said that it would allow you to use the artwork at low resolutions which isn't accurate.

My patch has also revealed a bug in the d3d rendering which for some screen resolutions  causes the display to be blank. It is not connected to my patch since it doesn't happen when using gdi.

I vaguely remember reading something about the fact that you can not guarantee the pixel accuracy of using D3D

It is true that rounding might cause the scaling to no be exact but I haven't seen it happning.

----
The other changes in the patch are:
1. A resolution based ini-file (e.g. 336x240H.ini) is loaded if it exists. That way you only need one ini file for each resolution and not for each game.
2. Several controller files can be loaded
3. -frames_to_throttle
4. -safe_exit (must press escape twice to exit)

[ahofle]

Wow, thanks.  The resolution based ini stuff is great too.  I wish we still had powermame around here -- this would be perfect. 

[genesim]

Stretching an image is always going to cause inaccuracies.

Though working from direct draw original resolution is another story.   

[ahofle]

What I never understood is why using D3D implies you have to stretch?  If you create a 336x240 texture and set screen resolution to 336x240, then it shouldn't it be a 1 to 1  pixel accurate mapping with no stretching/anti-aliasing?   

[wpcmame]

Stretching an image is always going to cause inaccuracies.

No.

Stretching with an integer multiplicator without filter doesn't alter the image in any way.

(Vertical stretching might cause a slight difference but horizontal never does)