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Author Topic: TV: S-video vs. Component  (Read 86766 times)

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SNAAAKE

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2003, 06:09:50 pm »
So color is more accurate now ?
R-G-B  ???

« Last Edit: December 09, 2003, 06:14:02 pm by SNAAAKE »

SuckerFish

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2003, 06:35:40 pm »
Color, sharpness, clarity everything you can think of has just improved a million times over.
It's quite remarkable!
Nobody owns the plesure of tones, that belong to a guy with no ear.

edgarvil

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2003, 11:27:40 pm »
sorry for being late to the game I was thinking of doing this for an htpc.  This is what's recommended by the HTPC people some  time go I don't know if it's the case anymore.

It's a VGA to component adapter. There is also a component to RGB adapter so you can hook up normal home theater equipment to an RGB Monitor.  I was thinking about doing this if I bought an RGB capable monitor to my cab.  
http://www.smarthome.com/77706.HTML

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2003, 07:50:04 pm »
This is awesome. Hey SuckerFish can you tell me what hardware and software (video card, TV, any special software and settings, etc) your using. Thanks.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2003, 07:52:07 pm »
ATI Radeon 8500 oem
ATI Radeon 8500 dvi component dongle
Latest Powerstrip ( on modified arcade settings to get no overscan)
JVC 27inch AV-27430

:)
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2003, 08:46:37 pm »
All you need is the HDTV Component Adapter and any ATI card that supports it.  Most adapter and card questions can be answered on the ATI FAQ page:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html

Then you need the Powerstrip software (as SF said) and a TV that accepts Component inputs.  We both happen to be using JVCs (they power on nicely).  

There is also a way to hack a VGA cord and mess with some registry settings instead of buying the component adapter.  All the component adapter does is it tells the video card (on boot up) to transmitts the component signals on a subset of the vga pins.  It doesn't actually do any converting of the signal.  Oh, it also gives you the component jacks...

edgarvil:  That sounds like alot of work to get an RGB monitor into a cab...
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2004, 04:01:35 pm »
Hello all.  Todd H referred me to this thread from another thread, http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=13526

I just wanted to let everyone know that I've had great success using PowerStrip to force my TV in to 540 progressive mode, and have since been able to run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480 with absolutely no overscan (in fact I had a lot of underscan at first, but I fixed it).  Powerstrip also helped me enable 1772x1000 with no overscan and 1920x1080 with a little overscan in 1080i mode.  The difference is astounding.  If anyone is curious about how to do it, let me know, I'd be happy to explain.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2004, 08:49:49 pm »
I have an HDTV, a Radeon 9600 Pro, and ATI's component adapter.

We are using standard definition TVs.  The ATI component adapter was made to be used with an HDTV, so everything should have worked for you.  That is a pretty nice setup.  

If you are using a standard definition TV, THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE SETTING is listed as "Arcade" in the custom settings.  If you can't find it, PM me.

Credit goes to SuckerFish for tracking down the arcade setting.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2004, 11:29:47 am »
Hmm this is totally confusing me. Oh well. I don't think I have the money to spend on a TV that has component inputs but from the pictures posted earlier. It makes so much difference. On top of that, I have no clue how to fix my over scan on both my Radeon 9700 and 9500 pro :( Now I still need to decide between a TV or a 21 inch monitor for $90. Hmmmmm Any suggestions? How cheap can you get a TV with compnent inputs for?

tenka

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2004, 11:56:24 pm »
I would like to know the final verdict on this too if anyone cares to share?  It sounds like the overscan problem with NON HDTV's is such that using the ATI HDTV adapter isn't worth it?

I have a Toshiba 27" TV that has Component Inputs on it - it is not an HDTV.

I would be up for spending the $ on a new ATI Card + HDTV adapter if someone else is reporting success using a setup similar to mine (i.e. the JVC).

Anyone?

Thanks!!!

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2004, 12:09:42 am »
I actually just stumbled across this which could accomplish the same thing the ATI+HDTV cable is doing.

http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=9A60

I may go this route if someone has any idea on the overscan problem looming.  =)

[Edit]
Actually this wouldn't work because the video card needs to send the correct signal to the TV (sorry).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 12:11:05 am by tenka »

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2004, 05:03:59 am »
Can't the overscan problems be resolved with Powerstrip?
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2004, 03:46:10 pm »
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  if you have an HDTV, a Radeon, and an ATI Component adapter, you can use PowerStrip to eliminate any overscan.  If you have all of that hardware, and you are not using PowerStrip, you are not getting the full benefit of the hardware.  Without PowerStrip, you can run the desktop on 640x480 with slight overscan, or you can run it at 640x432 with no overscan.  But with PowerStrip, you can run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480, and 1772x1000 with no overscan what so ever, and 1920x1080 with a little overscan.  I'm using this setup and I will never go back to an S-Video connection.  The difference is ridiculous.  With S-Video, for example, the font on this message board is barely visible, with a lot of squinting and staring at certain words until you figure them out.  With Component, the words are crystal clear.  I can't even begin to describe what it does for MAME.  There is just no comparison.

Now if you're not using an HDTV, I don't think ATI's adapter is of any use to you.  I guess you could get Powerstrip to make it output 640x480 at 30Hz, but I'm not positive.  From what I understand, and from everything I've read, the adapter is only for HDTV.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2004, 03:48:32 pm by Procyon »

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2004, 09:21:56 pm »
OK,
Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate it!

shmokes

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2004, 12:59:23 am »
Is powerstip free?  Where do you get it?
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2004, 01:12:46 am »
Hello all.  Todd H referred me to this thread from another thread, http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=13526

I just wanted to let everyone know that I've had great success using PowerStrip to force my TV in to 540 progressive mode, and have since been able to run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480 with absolutely no overscan (in fact I had a lot of underscan at first, but I fixed it).  Powerstrip also helped me enable 1772x1000 with no overscan and 1920x1080 with a little overscan in 1080i mode.  The difference is astounding.  If anyone is curious about how to do it, let me know, I'd be happy to explain.

Procyon,

I am inded curious and would love for you to explain.  I am outputting to a high definition widescreen.  Not only to I get overscan, but I get a weird scrolling phenomenon.  Like only a portion of the desktop is showing at any given time, but if I move my cursor to the edge of the screen it will scroll around.  It's difficult to explain.  It's kind of like when you use the zoom feature on your DVD player and can then move the zoomed window around the screen.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2004, 05:32:26 pm »
Not a problem.

First of all, Powerstrip can be downloaded for free from http://www.entechtaiwan.com/  It can be registered for a price, but at this time, I am unaware of what benefits you gain from doing so.  So far the unregistered version has done everything I have ever needed it to.

My experience with this program is limited to my setup, which is a Radeon 9600 Pro, the ATI Component adapter (DVI port), and my Panasonic CT-34WX50 HDTV.  And I am not currently at that computer, so I couldn't even paste the settings I have if I wanted to.  But what I found is this: you can go online and search for the particular timing paramters that pertain to your particular tv, but if you have the patience and the technical understand, I found it was best to ignore them and start from scratch on my own.

What happens is this.  ATI cards are programmed to use the 480p mode by default for any XXX by 480 resolution.  However, every HDTV that I have seen that is capable of 480p display, is capable of 1080i display as well.  These are common HDTV broadcast signals, as well as the newer 720p format.  Now, if your TV is capable of 1080i, your TV is also capable of 540p.  You might not have heard or thought of 540p because nothing I know of uses this signal, but never the less, your TV can do it.  Instead of displaying 1080 lines 30 times every second, (doing 540 in one 60th of a second, and the other 540 in the other 60th) it displays 540 lines 60 times every second.  It's the same thing, it's just that nothing uses that format.  (Vice versly, because your TV can do 480p, your TV can also do 960i, another unsed signal.  And if you have a 720p capable HDTV, you have 1440i as well.)

Now I've rambled on a bit about that, and most of it is useless information to everyone except for HTPC users.  Let's say you had a general run of the mill transcoder (therefore, not ATI's adapter).  You could use this information to construct any resolution that would fit best in which ever given signal.  For example, 640 x 480 in 540p.  800 x 600 in 720p.  1024 x 768 in 960i.  1280 x 960 in 1080i.  And so forth.

However, if you are using an ATI adapter like I am, I regret to say that you are limited to exactly 5 desktop sizes that will not result in a virtual desktop.  This is a very poor decision in my opinion, and while there may be some technical excuse for it, it is one that I hope ATI remedies soon.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that because of the inherent underscan and overscan in television sets, whatever your vertical resolution is set to, you need a mode that is greater than that resolution.  640 x 480 won't fit properly in 480p, but it does fit wonderfully in 540p.  And Powerstrip is the program that lets you do that.

Powerstrip is a program that talks directly to your video hardware and tells it exactly how to send the signal that your computer generates to the monitor (or HDTV).  This give you complete control over the refresh rate as well as a slew of other features of your video signal.  One of those features is referred to in Powerstrip as the front and back porch.  The front porch controls the number of scan lines to wait until drawing the desktop would be visible (i.e. not off the top of the screen).  The back portch controls the number of scan lines to hold off from drawing the bottom of the desktop (i.e. defining the bottom of the visible screen).  Properly setting the front and back porch will result in a perfectly fitted desktop on your TV screen.

Now, if only it were as simple as setting those numbers.  Unfortunately it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much.  Before you start Powerstrip, I would recommend you read any of the number of poor to well written tutorials on using Powerstip that can be found on the net.  They do a much better job at explaining the necessary steps than I ever could.  Notably, read:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/powerstrip.html
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/markrehjon/htpc_superguide.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206854

The last link in particular will contain actualy values that you could theoretically use if your TV matched the exact specifications as the TV that that forum poster has.  Chances are, that won't be the case and you will be left, as I was, on your own to figure out the right timing.

This requires a great deal of patience, and having a monitor attached to your video card at the same time is a HUGE plus.  What you're going to do is start with a base resolution such as 640 x 480 @ 60Hz in 480p.  Get it working on your monitor (should be easy) and get it working on your TV (should be a little tricky, but not too hard).  Once you have your monitor and TV agreeing on the numbers and you see a good picture on your TV, you've gotten through step 1.  It does not matter how crappy Powerstrip makes your monitor picture look (squashed, stretched, WAY off center) as long as it's legible.  Now you need to start changing the numbers in Powerstrip, to switch the resolution to 540p.  The links provided above give you a good baseline to start from.  The vertical refresh rate should stay exactly the same, and you should note what it was in 480p mode so that you know if you deviate too far from it, you can set it back and fix it.  Incorrect refresh rates will result in an unviewable picture with lots of scrolling, and if the refresh rates are way too off, you could potentially damage your TV.  Hence all the "do this at your own risk" warnings in almost every guide you come across.  Once you have a viewable picture for 640 x 480 @ 60Hz in 540p, you are well on your way to becoming a Powerstrip master, and you ready to try for some more "crazy" custom resolutions.

Note however, like I said earlier, that if you are using the ATI Component adapter, you are limited to exaclt 5 resolutions that will not result in a virtual desktop.  They are 640x480, 720x480, 856x480, 1772x1000, and 1920x1080.  You can use Powerstrip to get the first three resolutions in 540p with no overscan.  The last two will run automatically in 1080i, but you can use Powerstrip to tweak them.  It is possible with Powerstrip to have no overscan in 1772x1000, but it is physically impossible to prevent overscan in 1920x1080.

OK I better cut this here, I don't know if half of this information was really useful to you all, but I hope it cleared up a few questions.  Please feel free to ask if you need me to clarify any points.

Zathras

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2004, 05:46:28 pm »
First off Hi!  This is my first post of many I am sure.  

I'm in the early stages of planning my first mame cabinet and am debating everything (monitor/tv, modular cabinet/all in one) but that is half the fun... :)

I've been reading this thread and would like a bit of clarification - So it looks like reguardless if you are using the component adapter with a non-HDTV screen there is about 5% overscan?  (?even when using the powerstrip program on arcade mode? - that is part of the confustion)

Has anyone tried to get into the service menu of their TV to try and correct this overscan in the TV itself?  I've been a HT nut for some time now and every TV I've ever owned has had to be tweaked for overscan (and horrid geometry) with a dvd like Video Essentials.  There has got to be a test signal generator of some sort you could use beyond just eyeballing it.

Just a thought (as I would really like it to work...).

-Zathras
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2004, 09:47:28 pm »
If you read some of the earlier posts in this thread you can use a NON HDTV (JVC or Toshiba w/ Component Inputs), the appropriate ATI Radeon Card, the ATI HDTV Adapter, and Powerstrip (using the "Arcade" setting) to run a very clean 640x480 picture with less than 0.5% overscan.

You can not run over 640x480 unless you have a true HDTV.

I'm not sure if it works yet - I've ordered both a Radeon 8500 and the HDTV adapter to hook up to my Toshiba 27A33.  I'll post results when I get them, I know "Suckerfish" was very happy with his results.

IMO S-Video is adequate but if I can get near "computer monitor" clarity for another $100 on my cabinet - it's a $100 well spent.  The small amount of fuzz I get with S-Video is just enough to bother me.


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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2004, 11:17:55 pm »
Thanks that clears things up (I guess it was the 480P discussion that threw me since you have to have HD for 480P).

Component makes a big difference in color stability even in non-hd.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2004, 12:45:57 am »
 I have a 27" panasonic.. and it has component inputs.

 I looked into the manual and it says it supports 480i
signals.

 I then looked arround and found this:

 http://www.grandtec.com/xppro.htm

 A pc to composite converter.  

 I wonder if anyone has tried this... or has any comments about this?  I wonder if this would be a better route for me than buying an updated ATI card with the dongle thingy... as im not sure the dongle supports my tv anyway?

 With many options on the device already... it might be be better as its deviod of driver problems?  And no need for powerstrip...

 

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2004, 10:21:19 pm »
I posted pictures earlier in this thread that show how clear the image is.  I'm using a 27" JVC with component input.  Here is the setting I was running in Powerstrip (it's a predefined setting).
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2004, 10:22:19 am »
The settings on the rightside of the screen are setup for 1280 btw, I'll post mine later tonight :)
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2004, 07:01:05 pm »
These are my settings once im in the Custom Arcade settings.  No overscan :)

Hope this helps out!
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2004, 07:01:46 pm »
Here
Nobody owns the plesure of tones, that belong to a guy with no ear.

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2004, 04:56:24 pm »
Folks,

Of all the people who sucessfully got this working.. (the
component out of the ATI cards).

Do anyone of you use non ATI brand cards? Like the "Powered
by ATI" cards (sapphire, powercolor, etc)? They are a lot cheaper
then their ATI counterparts. Will the component out/adapter
work with these cards? I just picked up the toshiba 27" tv
everyone suggested to use (with the component in). I am now
looking to pick up the video card and the adapter.

Thanks,
Crayola

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2004, 09:56:47 pm »
I have an original 8500 All In Wonder.  I'm probably looking to get a cheap card too, since I am running to a TV. and won't need the TV tuner.  My advice is to build the cable as described on the AV forum.  Is anyone selling those cables on ebay yet?  It seems like something that should be avaiable by now, but I haven't looked.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2004, 11:52:02 am »
Ok I finally got the TV mounted last night and hooked it up via component and started playing around with powerstrip.

At 640x432 I get no overscan, but I'm having some problems getting all the emulators to cooperate with that resolution.  When I try the arcade 640x480i mode I still have a good bit of overscan - is there some other adjustments I need to make or should I hit the service mode of the TV to get everything correct?

Thanks!
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #108 on: February 11, 2004, 12:00:11 pm »
For mame it is simple, Other emus you can edit the cfg files or ini  to run your own custom resolutions.

I most on my xbox connected to the cab : nes snes genesis etc, Lets try to compile a list of emus at will work with that custom rez for component 640 X 432.

Btw what do you think of the picture quality?
Nobody owns the plesure of tones, that belong to a guy with no ear.

Zathras

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #109 on: February 11, 2004, 01:21:17 pm »
I'm impressed so far - Actually I need to try taking out the tinted glass to see it a little more clearly tonight.
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eli curtz

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #110 on: February 11, 2004, 03:28:50 pm »
What TV are you using Zathras?

I'm still waiting on my adapter from ATI... <twiddles thumbs>

- eli
Look. This... is all a mistake. I'm just a compound interest program. I work at a savings and loan! I can't play these video games!

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #111 on: February 11, 2004, 04:19:23 pm »
It is a Toshiba 27A33 - It is about the smallest footprint 27" tv I've come across, the price was right (had some BB coupons) and it did component so it was pretty much a clear choice for me.

Specs are available here:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=27a33


My ATI adapter took forever to come too - one would think for $15 shipping they would overnight the thing....
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #112 on: February 11, 2004, 11:28:02 pm »
Excellent Zathras.

I'm glad to hear that as the Toshiba seems much easier to get in my area than the JVC the others have used. You should mail Tenka your PowerStrip settings, as it sounds like he has had no luck getting his 27A33 working with this setup. (In fact you should post them, as I'll probably go with the Toshiba now and I'm sure others will want them as well.)

- eli
Look. This... is all a mistake. I'm just a compound interest program. I work at a savings and loan! I can't play these video games!

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #113 on: February 29, 2004, 04:23:58 am »
Anyone know if the Radeon 9600SE will work with the component video adaptor?

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2004, 01:30:44 pm »
For those of you using the Dongle + Powerstrip on a non-HDTV, are you also manually setting MAME's resolution to 640x480 for every game too?

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2004, 03:21:37 pm »
Yes .. In my case I use 640X432 for mame and desktop.

I can do it in mame and it will automatically detect my desktop resolution and let me select the output for the games to run in the same resolution.
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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2004, 12:58:02 am »
Yes .. In my case I use 640X432 for mame and desktop.

I can do it in mame and it will automatically detect my desktop resolution and let me select the output for the games to run in the same resolution.
So your saying that you just have Powerstrip running at 640X432, but you don't specifically tell MAME to run at that resolution, correct?  Thanks for the info, by the way.  :)

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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2004, 07:47:36 am »
In Mame options I have to select 640 X432, Mame lists the option for me cause my desktop is running at that resolution.  But I still have to select it, all My games run at that res and look great.
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What a fantastic discussion!!!!
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2004, 02:38:01 pm »
Hi guys! It's nice to be here :)

I have been gaming on emus from my PC via the *Ultimate XP Pro by Grandtec USA* for a few weeks now. This is basically a third party PC to TV transocder that accepts S-Video and Component video. Here's a *pic*

Now, with this new Ultimate XP Pro by Grandtec, I am happy with it except for one thing...

The fact that I am not getting a progressive scan image as a result of my TV not being HDTV compliant means that the picture running from my PC is blurry compared to my monitor and I have to turn the sharpness up to like 50 in order to get a decently sharp picture. In other words, 480i SUCKS for viewing PC content on a TV! This is not the case with my home console games. All my PS2 and xbox games are sharp enough even at a setting of 0! Not so with PC emu'ed games though.

But the question I have is...would the crappiness of nVidia's TVout display affect how it looks even from a third party VGA to PC transcoder?

I'm sure you'll agree that the picture quality from an emu running from an Xbox to a 5 year old NON-high definition Rear Projection Widescreen TV(which I currently have) via component out can't compare with an ATI card running to a High-Def DLP front projector via DVI output....right? I have the rear projection TV...and Im sure that has a lot to do with
it not being as insanely clear as a standard CRT TV...right?


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Re:TV: S-video vs. Component
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2004, 07:18:25 pm »
Thanks to you guys and this thread I think I will order a Radeon 8500 and adaptor to get the component connection on my analog t.v.

Question is which card does everyone suggest?

64mb or 128

LE?

I know it makes a difference in 3d pc games but what about MAME?

My other specs are:

1.2ghz Thunderbird
512 megs DDR ram
40gig WD hd
GF2 Pro Svideo
Yamaha Aureal Vortex Soundcard
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 07:26:44 pm by jmet »