Missing sounds in Super Punch-Out ***FIXED***

[MaximRecoil]

So after many hours of building a JAMMA adapter yesterday, my Super Punch-Out machine is finally up and running. The only problem I am noticing with the gameplay is that certain sounds from the game are missing, or replaced with a dinging sound, namely when the opponent throws a punch. Instead of the whooshing sound that is supposed to be there, it dings, similar to, but not identical to, the sound that it correctly makes when you press the KO punch button before it is powered up.

Does anyone know the cause and solution for this?

[RayB]

Are your regular punch buttons perhaps wired to the KO button?

[MaximRecoil]

Are your regular punch buttons perhaps wired to the KO button?

No, the game is working fine, all the controls are wired correctly. The dinging noise happens when the opponents throws a punch, not when you throw a punch...plus it is higher pitched than the sound it makes when you press the KO button when it is not powered up.

I just finished pulling and reseating all the ROM chips but that didn't change anything.

Edit: I recorded the audio from the game on both Mame and my arcade machine. At the start of the bout in both recordings I hit the KO button a couple times to show the difference between the correct sound it makes when you hit the KO button without it being powered up, and this weird dinging sound.

To download these MP3 audio files, right click the links and select "Save Target As..."

The first one is from Mame, the entire bout with Vodka Drunkenski; the sounds here are all correct - http://maxim.skyphix.com/spo_mame.mp3

The next one is from the arcade machine, notice all the dinging sounds where the sounds for the opponents punches should be - http://maxim.skyphix.com/spo_arcade.mp3

This one is a short comparison between the correct "KO without powerup" sound (the first pair of dings) and the incorrect dinging sound (the second pair of dings) - http://maxim.skyphix.com/ko_ding_comparison.mp3

This one is the sound that jabs and punches from the opponent are supposed to make, rather than that dinging sound - http://maxim.skyphix.com/punch_sounds.mp3

And this is the correct sound for when you knock the opponents down (the sound of him hitting the canvas), which is also getting replaced with ding sounds on my machine - http://maxim.skyphix.com/knockdown.mp3

[Flinkly]

uh...i really don't know much about the game or arcade electronics, but i know that mame isn't always right when it comes to sounds and colors and all sorts of things.  i also didn't read the rest of the thread, but unless you know that the sounds are wrong from actual arcade experience, i wouldn't whole-heartidly believe mame.

[2600]

You've posted a few threads all over the place looking for help, but I'm just going to reply here to some of your questions.

Note: I haven't had any time to look really into this, not an expert, nor close to having a clue. 

chp1-c.4k looks to be for the Sound CPU

chs1-c.6p looks to be for the VLM5030 data

The rest appear to be GFX, PROMs, or CODE.


I think I'd have to read more to see which does that specific sound.
*Edit* VLM5030 seems to be for speech and I'd assume chs1-c.6p is the speech data.


Do you have an EPROM burner?
Do you have a schematic? 
It's the same MAME driver as punchout, is it the same  PCB as well?
You could try cleaning up around the two sound chips as well.

I also haven't had time to really listen and look at the recorded sounds too much, but it was good to post them.  If I get time I'll try to help(don't know if I have) a bit more.

[MaximRecoil]

uh...i really don't know much about the game or arcade electronics, but i know that mame isn't always right when it comes to sounds and colors and all sorts of things.

[MaximRecoil]

You've posted a few threads all over the place looking for help, but I'm just going to reply here to some of your questions.

Note: I haven't had any time to look really into this, not an expert, nor close to having a clue.

[2600]

I dont have enough information to give a good opinion.

It sounds like you have some good leads and I'd probably start with those, but don't be surprised if it is something else.  From the information you've given, and quick listen to the recordings it doesn't sound like a problem with the analog section.  But I've seen weirder crap on other boards (not arcade mind you, don't have enough experience with those).  It could be the a capacitor, it could be a problem addressing the sound CPU, etc.

Keep us updated.

[MaximRecoil]

Keep us updated.

I will. I just ordered a CHP1-C.4K EPROM from Stephan Suys at hobbyroms.com. This is what he said, "CHP1-C.4K is a 2764 Eprom of which I have plenty in stock."

So when that gets here we'll see how it goes. I still don't know of a place to get a 2A03 chip, short of hacking up an NES of course, but I can try the replacement EPROM first.

[unclet]

Off topic here a bit .......

Does anyone know what the secret is in defeating "Dragon Chan".   I never can progress pasyt this guy and I am really tired of getting kicked in the head and knocked-out.     

[MaximRecoil]

Off topic here a bit .......

Does anyone know what the secret is in defeating "Dragon Chan".

[unclet]

Geez..... I had no idea there was a "duck" capability ......  I never played this game in the arcades, just on Mame ......  Thanks for letting me know .... I will be playing this today ....  :>)

[MaximRecoil]

Geez..... I had no idea there was a "duck" capability ......

[MaximRecoil]

Well, that didn't work. I replaced both the CHP1-C.4K EPROM and the 2A03 audio chip and no changes whatsoever, so I put the old ones back in. There were a couple of thin green bridging wires on the solder side of that board, one of which connected to a leg on the 2A03's socket, and one of the points barely had any solder on it at all, and a couple of the other points looked shady at best. They were originally soldered by hand from the factory because you can't attach wires on the bottom side of the board like that in the Wave. I reflowed all of those points but again, no changes.

Back to square one I guess :|

[RayB]

Maybe something related to memory addressing...

[MaximRecoil]

Maybe something related to memory addressing...

Where would I start? Eldorado games will swap it out for $95 (Ka-Ching!$!) but that is ridiculous, especially for such a minor problem. You can pick up working Punch-Out boards on eBay for $50 - $75, and I bet if I swapped the SPO roms onto a known good Punch-Out board I'd be all set. Eldorado's board swaps do come with a warranty though. I wish I had Genyo Takeda's phone number, lol.

I did fix the major color problems on the lower monitor though so now both monitors look great other than minor red purity issues on the lower monitor and reds being too dark on the upper monitor; and I just have to wait 24 hours to see if the arcing problem on the lower monitor has been fixed. Actually, that silicone dries in 1 hour, but says to wait 24 hours for a full cure and maximum strength. I wonder if I could test it in an hour?

Also, I got my BigBlueButton

[RayB]

You should be able to adjust your color problem with the color controls on the monitor (usually on the neckboard. be very careful).

[ChadTower]

For a bit more elaboration on RayB's comment, the reason to be careful is that the solder points on those adjustment pots are so fragile, even when being careful, you can crack a joint and have to pull the chassis for repair.

[RayB]

...and risk of shock (in case he's reaching back there while also craning his neck to see the monitor--Use a mirror!)

[ChadTower]

Yeah, mirrors rule for this.  Don't do what I do, which is make the wife stand there and tell you when it's good.

[MaximRecoil]

I wrote a letter to Genyo Takeda, a real letter sent by snail mail to Nintendo of Japan. For those not familiar with Genyo Takeda:

R&D3's first projects included an arcade game titled Punch-Out!!.

Genyo Takeda and R&D3 produced the last two original arcade projects with Super Punch-Out!!and Arm Wrestling.

http://people.freenet.de/datastorer/takeda.html

I figured it was a long shot but knowing what I know about the Japanese culture, I figured I stood a much greater chance of receiving a useful response than if I'd sent a letter to say, Eugene Jarvis asking for help with a Defender board.

So in the letter I described the audio issue as well as linked to the page that I posted the audio samples on, and provided my email address.

I received this email last night:

I am an engineer working for Mr. Takeda at Nintendo. Generally speaking, the manufacturing companies are not able to support technically and do the maintenance of too old products out of warranty, because there would be no spare components to replace or fix, even if we locate the problems.

Anyway Mr. Takeda assigned me to help you, as much as possible, fix the problem of your Super Punch-Out hardware. However please keep it in your mind that I do my best to locate the problem, but you should not expect excessively, because I would not like to make you be disappointed finally.

For your information, I found the pdf file of the Punch-Out

[2600]

Why you are talking with the guy maybe you should see if can buy the ROM for the version of Super Punch-Out that you used to play?  Or see if there was another version?

[MaximRecoil]

Why you are talking with the guy maybe you should see if can buy the ROM for the version of Super Punch-Out that you used to play?

[RayB]

I find this really funny: "You must be frustrated for a long time. But I hope you stay calmed down."

What really amazes me though is that both these guys are still working at Nintendo. Talk about job security!


Max: Could the two versions be English vs Japanese? The Japanese release had japanese speech. (Or are you saying there were two North American/English releases?)

[MaximRecoil]

What really amazes me though is that both these guys are still working at Nintendo. Talk about job security!

Toru Iwatani (creator of Pac-Man) still works for Namco too, doing pretty much what he has always done there. There is an interview with him here:

We wander down a smelly, nondescript corridor, and almost miss a slightly overweight middle-aged man wearing cheap sandals and a faint grin.

[MaximRecoil]

Two more emails:

I read your mail. I also found that we did not insert another 2A03, just prepared as the contingency plan. So anyway, your product which includes the sockets, must be the early product of

[2600]

Quick explanation, they hold the data sent from the cpu before it gets to the 2A03. There are a few other components that control signals to those chips as well, like 2D which should be a LS138 appears to clock the data in and out of 2H and 2J.

Can you get access to a scope?  You may be able to get by with a multimeter as well.  You could keep plugging and chugging components but you could be doing that forever and  it is pure guesswork. 

I'd start with getting a multimeter.  I don't have the board in front of me so it's harder to debug, but if you get one I can tell you where to probe and tell you what I think you should be getting if you want.

[RayB]

The FlipFlop might have to do with bank switching or something. If it was broken, then the sound from the wrong bank of data would be fetched. (Sounds like your problem huh?)

I don't know if the flipflop circuit is something built INTO the z80 or if it's external...

[MaximRecoil]

I'd start with getting a multimeter.  I don't have the board in front of me so it's harder to debug, but if you get one I can tell you where to probe and tell you what I think you should be getting if you want.

Thanks for the offer. I'll see about getting a multimeter. I think an oscilloscope is out of the question. MikesArcade.com has those 74LS374 components for 90 cents each BTW - http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl -  could those themselves be the problem?

[2600]

Good ol'Plug and Chug.  They could be the problem. I can give you a half dozen or so other components if you want to replace them all and it still could be something else.

[MaximRecoil]

The FlipFlop might have to do with bank switching or something. If it was broken, then the sound from the wrong bank of data would be fetched. (Sounds like your problem huh?)

I don't know if the flipflop circuit is something built INTO the z80 or if it's external...

[MaximRecoil]

Good ol'Plug and Chug.

[MaximRecoil]

Would the "Oscilloscope for Windows" - http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html - work?

I don't know the first thing about oscilloscopes. I downloaded that program and it works with a mic and sound input. It says you can use to for electrical signals but I'm not sure what sort of an input you would need. It uses your sound card as an A/D converter so I would think something like a pair of probes connected to a 1/8" miniplug for use with electrical signals? I wonder what level of current would be safe to input into a sound card? A mic jack is designed for line level voltage and whatever I would be measuring on the PCB would be what? 5 volts?

The whole oscilloscope thing is interesting and all, but I don't mind the brute force approach either. I know already that it is not the 2A03 sound chip or the Eprom at location 4K. There are the two $0.90 74LS374 components mentioned by the Nintendo engineer, as well as the $0.70 74LS138 at 2D mentioned by 2600. What else is in that particular audio circuit? I just want to fix this thing, and if it means $10 worth of chips and a few hours of desoldering/soldering time; then that's a good deal in my book. It would actually be cool to add sockets to any unsocketed chip I replace. I wonder if sockets are available for all of them?

[2600]

That scope probably won't work.  I'd assume most sound cards are AC coupled which means you won't be able to see your DC signal.

If you are going to start with components, I'd start with what the Nintendo Engineer recommends.  Just don't forget things like capacitors or the socket of the 2A03 itself could be what is causing the problem.  Also, I'd try one thing at a time instead of all at once.  You never know if introducing another component causes another problem. All the sockets should be available at digikey or mouser.

[MaximRecoil]

Also, I'd try one thing at a time instead of all at once.

[2600]

Oohh!  Thanks for combining the schematic, it was a bit of a PIA to look at before.

I'll take a quick look at it.

[2600]

Usually, with the sockets you also look at the whole foot print to see if it matches, basically pin spacing.  These are probably all standard dips so you should be okay.


After looking at the schematic some more, I'd start off with what components you have so far.  Those seem to be the ones that would most likely to be able to cause your problem, if I am thinking about it right.  Also check for any bad solder points on and around those chips and the 2A03.


If you really want to get extra components, you could get:

LS259 at 2B (I think this would cause more sounds to be missing)
*Decoupling caps (These aren't shown on the schematic and you would have to look at your board to see values)
Theres a few more, but I think they would affect other things.


As always, keep us updated.

[ChadTower]

He'd probably be better off with SIP sockets.  The take up less space, are easier to look under for problems, and can be ordered long and just cut to size.

[2600]

He'd probably be better off with SIP sockets.  The take up less space, are easier to look under for problems, and can be ordered long and just cut to size.

I suppose, but he's ordering from Mikes Arcade and I don't think they carry SIP sockets.  Ordering the Sockets from Mikes isn't that big of a deal since it's only a couple. 

This of course leads to the machine pins vs. dual wipe argument.

[MaximRecoil]

Another email:

I understand your

[ChadTower]

Without an expert on site and the high level equipment, it's really your best shot.  Just replace each of those components one at a time, testing after each one, and eventually you'll get to the right one...

...if it's a bad component and not a bad trace.

[MaximRecoil]

Without an expert on site and the high level equipment, it's really your best shot.

[MaximRecoil]

***FIXED!!***

I replaced the LS374 (2J) first like the Nintendo engineer suggested and hooked it back up but there was no change. Then I replaced the LS374 at 2H and when I hooked it back up the sounds were all there, 100% correct, perfect!

Those sockets are great too; will make it a lot easier if I ever have to replace either one of those LS374's again.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, putting in sockets is cool... though the odds of that going bad again are low.

Nice work.  Way above and beyond reason, contacting the dude who designed the thing 20 years ago.   

[MaximRecoil]

Way above and beyond reason, contacting the dude who designed the thing 20 years ago.

LOL. He had nothing better to do, right?

From what I have read, Genyo Takeda is pretty high up in the company (senior managing director and general manager of Nintendo's Integrated Research & Development division), and has been with them since '72. He has spoken publicly on behalf of Nintendo, such as at the 2001 Spaceworld unveiling of the Nintendo GameCube.

I think it says a lot about Japanese culture that he personally read my letter and assigned one of his engineers who worked on the original Punch-Out and Super Punch-Out projects back in the day, to help as much as he could. I mean, the guy is busy working on the Nintendo Revolution and took the time to deal with a Super Punch-Out audio issue that some random guy halfway around the world was having; on a game about 20 years out of warranty; with engineers never having had the responsibilty of public tech support in the first place.

Coincidentally, not long after I got the first reply from the Nintendo engineer, I watched the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" (good movie BTW) and after watching it, I went to Steve Wozniak's site to see if he had anything to say about the accuracy of the events depicted in the movie. He had a whole section on it and in one of the letters that someone wrote to him it said this:

I saw Larry Ellison on an old Charlie Rose show the other day. It was from 1997 I think but anyway, he was talking about how the Japanese value service to others and view being of service to others as a path toward happiness. He said being in Japan was like being on another planet because, generally, we don't appreciate people who are of service to us in the U.S. We look upon serving others as demeaning. That's a really sad thing to say but it's true. Most of the time, if we're honest about it, we reward ruthlessness.

[MaximRecoil]

Final words from the Nintendo engineer:

I am very happy to hear that you did fix it. I will pass your best regards to Mr. Takeda.
Please enjoy the game!

[MaximRecoil]

Quick explanation, they hold the data sent from the cpu before it gets to the 2A03. There are a few other components that control signals to those chips as well, like 2D which should be a LS138 appears to clock the data in and out of 2H and 2J.

Well this bit of information came in handy two years after the fact. I was playing SPO last night when the sound (which has been working perfectly since I fixed it two years ago) suddenly went screwy in the middle of a game. The announcer was doing the count and then got stuck in a loop doing the count, repeatedly counting from 1 to 10 but in an altered tone of voice. The graphic portion of the game continued fine, but there were no sounds, aside from the announcer counting.

I restarted the machine and the wrong music came up when I powered it on, along with constant crowd noise which wasn't supposed to be there. I coined it up and the sound for that was gone. The music when you press the button to start was gone. Most of the gameplay sounds were gone or incorrect.

I tried various things like swapping the sound CPU's with known good ones, as well as the ROM that I was told holds the sound data, and that didn't help. I was about to remove all the SPO stuff and use it to convert a different, working PO board when I remembered this post. At the time, because of 2600's post here, in addition to the pair of LS374's I ordered for 2H and 2J, I also ordered a pair of LS138's for 2C and 2D. I didn't need to use them so I stuck them in the cupboard.

So I figured I'd give that a try. I replaced the LS138's at 2C and 2D with the new ones I ordered 2 years ago (along with sockets), and that did the trick. My SPO board is working perfectly again, and was only down for a couple of hours.

It was also the first real repair I've gotten to do with my new [to me] Metcal, which was nice.