Games that were loved, but now hated?

[JCL]

In another thread there is a mention of Mortal Kombat. This was a very popular series of games that are hated today at least by MAMErs and collectors.

So what games were big in their day, but mostly disliked now.

MK for sure.

Dragon's Lair, maybe, though some people clearly still like it.

What else?

[the3eyedblindman]

Where does this hatred of Mortal Kombat come from? I remember it being very popular.??

[paigeoliver]

Hardcore collectors tend to look down on MK and SF2 as well. Jamma collectors seem to like them.

My suggestions?

Pit Fighter. Was really popular when it was new.

Mat-Mania, Ring King, King of Boxer, Tag Team Wresting, and all related non-jamma "2 guys in a ring" games from 1984-1986.

Almost every conversion title prior to 1987.

[RayB]

MK was popular due to the graphic violence. In terms of gameplay, it doesn't hold a candle to SFII. That's why it's hated now. Bad gameplay, but was popular thanks to little 16 year olds who will put a quarter into anything that "looks cool". OH, and let's not forget the media who made a big stink about the game.

Just do a search for "Time Killers" and you'll see my point proven. "Time Killers" has to be the worst arcade game ever made. Lousy gameplay. Lousy AI (basically the winner is whoever mashes the attack buttons the fastest) and graphics that look like a high school kid drew them. But you'll find lots of guys who remember that game fondly for some reason or other.

[MaximRecoil]

I think MK has decent game play. I hated it the first time I played because I was a veteran SFII player already, but once I got used to it I liked it. To this day, those are the only two "modern"  fighting games I care for (I like Karate Champ VS. too). I think the mechanics of all other fighting games, including the King of Fighter series, Tekken series, Virtua Fighter series, and countless knockoffs of SFII are terrible.

Two things that still annoy me about MK though is the button for block (rather than pulling the joystick back) and the way the game play is more heavily balanced toward offensive attacks over defensive measures/counter attacks than SFII is.

[RayB]

Two things that still annoy me about MK though is the button for block (rather than pulling the joystick back) and the way the game play is more heavily balanced toward offensive attacks over defensive measures/counter attacks than SFII is.

Exactly.    I was a fan of Tekken. I liked the "left/right" punches and kicks, and it had back to block too.

[Skadar]

MK was popular due to the graphic violence. In terms of gameplay, it doesn't hold a candle to SFII. That's why it's hated now.

It would be more accurate to compare SFII with MKII.  I always MUCH preferred MKIIs graphics rather than the SFII 'toons.  To this day I feel that MKII was one of the most strategic, yes... I said strategic, games I've ever played.  It was rock solid and packed with features.  And the sense of humor was right up my alley... TOASTY!

That being said... yes, I've found that I have to constantly defend myself, as the MK games are generally looked down upon.

I think that this is due to a backlash of sorts.  MK certainly did capture everyone's attention for a short time with the brutality of the images.  When that wore off, SFII players went back to playing their "real" game and never looked back.  Hence, MKII was saddled with their stigma from the outset.

Cheers.

[brophog]

the way the game play is more heavily balanced toward offensive attacks over defensive measures/counter attacks than SFII is

MK2, arguably the best of the series, was known as being too defensive. When MK3 came out, Midway put in the run button and combos to counter that exact sentiment. Anyone playing against the CPU would agree as they would block nearly every special move, thereby forcing you to play defensive as well.

What made MK2's gameplay different was the fact that every character is the same. Aside from special moves, the play style of the characters was the same. There would be slight differences in reach and speed of the character, but overall a HK was the same for everyone, HP the same......etcetera.

SF2, on the other hand, was totally different. Ryu played different than Dhalsim, who was different than Blanka, and so on. Not only the special moves, but every move, and in order to master those characters, you had to take on their uniqueness.

MK is still a fun game, but doesn't have the same depth because of it. It's easy to learn all of the combatants because of their similiarities and because the moves were easy to learn. It's the fact that it was such a simple game that made it so popular. Unlike SF2, anyone could pick up MK and have fun with it.

[romperwomb]

Beyond the game play, I've always liked the B movie style plot lines MK has had.  I think that's why the game translated into one of the only somewhat bearable video game based movies.

SF on the other hand...anyone remember the EGM April Fools joke about fighting Shing-Long? 


Guile vs. Blanka

[ChadTower]

I never actually got to play DL when it was new because it cost a full dollar, even back then.

[brophog]

Back to the topic of this thread......somewhat. I think the problem with MK is more a problem with fighters than the game itself. Atleast what I've seen on the subject, many people either hate or love fighters. Those that don't like them naturally won't like MK. Those that like them have moved on to more elaborate figthers as the genre has expanded over the years. Since MK didn't break the mold on the genre it's not a game for nostalgia, and the massive number of modern fighters overwealms it.

I can't really think of another game to compare it to. There are games that were popular but then surpassed, but they tend to still be nostalgic.

Maybe Raiden fits the bill, although not to the extent as MK. It certainly didn't invent the shooter genre, but the return to the genre in the last 5 years has certainly surpassed it to the point that it's forgotten. Still, it's not 'hated', just forgotten.

[DaveMMR]

I will always remember Mortal Kombat as the game that humbled Nintendo into loosening their archaic censoring of content.  http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/june03/dumbestmoments/readers/index4.shtml 

But, honestly, I play Mortal Kombat (and its sequels) today and I get bored.  Fights last two seconds and it's usually a contest over who memorizes the most button combinations to throw out special moves.  SFII is still interesting.

[ChadTower]

Really, the only game I can think of that causes this type of reaction in myself is MK.  To me, that was the beginning of the end of what I consider quality arcade games.

[brophog]

I'm not sure their censoring was archaic. Is it a bad thing to have a certain standard to live up to? Probably not. Nintendo just seemed to go too far at times.

What was archaic was their exhorbitant licensing and power struggle with their third party providers. You might say that it is no different than censoring content, and you'd be correct except Nintendo tended to go too far at times. In my opinion, not only did it hurt sales of games such as MK1, but it has a huge impact on Nintendo's inability to compete in hardware sales in both of the last two console generations.

Strong armed tactics were OK when companies felt they had no other choice in the days of the NES. Even into the days of the SNES companies felt they had to either go with Nintendo or lose sales. But I still feel that once Sony hit the marketplace they were a lightning rod for disgruntled companies that had had enough of Nintendo telling them what to do.

[DaveMMR]

I'm not sure their censoring was archaic. Is it a bad thing to have a certain standard to live up to? Probably not. Nintendo just seemed to go too far at times.

What was archaic was their exhorbitant licensing and power struggle with their third party providers. You might say that it is no different than censoring content, and you'd be correct except Nintendo tended to go too far at times. In my opinion, not only did it hurt sales of games such as MK1, but it has a huge impact on Nintendo's inability to compete in hardware sales in both of the last two console generations.

Strong armed tactics were OK when companies felt they had no other choice in the days of the NES. Even into the days of the SNES companies felt they had to either go with Nintendo or lose sales. But I still feel that once Sony hit the marketplace they were a lightning rod for disgruntled companies that had had enough of Nintendo telling them what to do.

Well, not exactly.  Their 'strong-armed' tactics when dealing with third-party developers had come to a head towards the beginning of their SNES days.  You need to remember, Mortal Kombat was released simultaneously for Genesis and SNES, something that licensees were forbidden to do under Nintendo's old agreement (back when they were king of the market).  It was the rising popularity of the Genesis (not to metion investigations into The Big N's business practices that ended in a "send out a coupon" settlement) that changed everything.  The link I provided is part of Gamespy's "25 Dumbes Moments in Gaming" and I believe the whole story about their way they handled their third-parties also made the list. 

But nothing killed SNES Mortal Kombat's sales more than the omission of blood and fatalities.  Yes the censoring was totally archaic.  Someone, somewhere had to realize that the game's popularity had a lot to do with the silly gore, but obviously no one on that project.  Plus, even before MK, they were censoring things for the stupidest of reasons.  The link I provided listed some of the more far out examples (the word "blood" had to be changed) but here's another that I think someone posted a while back somewhere else on this forum: http://www.filibustercartoons.com/Nintendo.php.  I can understand Nintendo's motives for a lot of the changes (Japaneese and American cultures are very different and thus what we find offensive varies wildy) but their are some that seems just silly.

[RayB]

MK didn't humble Nintendo into changing anything. It was the industry's voluntary adoption of a ratings system that enabled Nintendo to finally loosen up.

Though I'll grant you that MK was the game that started the ball rolling toward adoption of this ratings system.

[Wade]

There is a lot of dislike for MK in this thread.

A lot of collectors aren't fans of MK because in general, the fighters came long after the video game peak.  Most people consider "classic" video games those around 1980 or so.  So MK is just off the map for a lot of these people.

MK WILL be a classic eventually, and it is already to a lot of people.  While not classic to me in the sense that something like Pac-man is, I still want a real nice example of a dedicated MK/MK2 because those were two games that were monumental in arcades.

SFII might be the "original" or might be a better game on technical playability merits.  So what, the MK craze was far bigger.  I saw some SF machines here and there, and a lot of my friends played it.  But when MK came out, there were LINES of kids to play the game.  I even saw plenty of college students, and even some guys in their 20's/30's lining up to play the game.  I never saw that with SFII.

A lot of it was the gore gimmick, sure.  I think it was also the combination of neat graphics, and "hidden" moves/fatalities, etc.  MK was a temporary injection of life into the arcade scene.

I don't play the DDR games.  But whether you like playing them or not, or disagree with the idea, or whatever, these games caused a bit of a stir in arcades.  Just like just about everyone knows what Golden Tee is.  We're lucky anyone knows anything about modern arcade games, since they are dangerously close to becoming extinct.

Wade

[ChadTower]

Most people consider "classic" video games those around 1980 or so.

[brophog]

Well, not exactly.  Their 'strong-armed' tactics when dealing with third-party developers had cotowards the beginning of their SNES days.

No doubt they were far worse in the NES days. Those licensing agreements were brutal and companies had little choice at the time but to do what Ninetendo wanted. But make no mistake, even into the SNES days Nintendo still threw around their muscle. Sega posed a threat to Nintendo, but really little else. Most exclusive software for the Genesis was ported Sega arcade material or niche titles like sports games (a niche market in the early 90's). Even then, Nintendo would wind up with many of those titles in the later years of the SNES and many of the Genesis exclusive titles never gained due popularity when they were released (Herzog Zwei is a great example).

MK1 was really the only mutually licensed title that did better on the Genesis than the SNES. Nintendo loosened up their agreements only because it found that it could have software on both systems without a real threat being posed to SNES software sales. They didn't have much choice......the Genesis hit the market at the end of the NES but before the SNES came around. Nintendo had to let companies market both systems or risk them not making games for the SNES at all. But once the SNES did hit the market, the Genesis never really competed favorably.

Back to MK1.........

The rating system did nothing. Nintendo didn't change it's tune with MK2 because of the ratings, it did so because of lost money with MK1. Nintendo was already being marketed as a 'kiddie system' by Sega.

All of the senate hearings and ratings systems amounted to nothing in the end, which is why today we have games even more violent and sexually explicit than Mortal Kombat was.

[AC.]

A wierd-o like/hate game that is fun in a twisted way is Michael Jackson's Moonwalker.  I did not know of it when it was released but when friends come over - we play the two player mode - it is hilarious.

[DaveMMR]

MK didn't humble Nintendo into changing anything. It was the industry's voluntary adoption of a ratings system that enabled Nintendo to finally loosen up.

Not exactly.  The inferior (graphically) Genesis version of MK outsold the SNES version by a landslide.  For MKII, Nintendo adopted their own faux rating system (a warning on the front of the box) before the ESRB adopted a ratings system.  I give you that it wasn't Mortal Kombat "itself" that made Nintendo change their ways - it was the money the game made.  It all went to Sega.  Lesson learned the hard way by Nintendo.

Most exclusive software for the Genesis was ported Sega arcade material or niche titles like sports games (a niche market in the early 90's). Even then, Nintendo would wind up with many of those titles in the later years of the SNES and many of the Genesis exclusive titles never gained due popularity when they were released (Herzog Zwei is a great example).

MK1 was really the only mutually licensed title that did better on the Genesis than the SNES. Nintendo loosened up their agreements only because it found that it could have software on both systems without a real threat being posed to SNES software sales. They didn't have much choice......the Genesis hit the market at the end of the NES but before the SNES came around. Nintendo had to let companies market both systems or risk them not making games for the SNES at all. But once the SNES did hit the market, the Genesis never really competed favorably.

Good point, but give credit to the sports games.  It was Madden that practically gave the Genesis a leg up on Nintendo (plus a little blue rodent with a 'tude). 

Sega arcade material didn't really make an appearance on the NES and SNES except for the unlicensed Tengen games (that lead to many, many lawsuits - which didn't help Atari [Tengen's real name] financially). 

And Nintendo didn't voluntarily decide to 'play fair'.  They could have put a short leash on their third-party developers for as long as they could if the government didn't step in and intervene.  Yes, the Genesis' success did help loosen the reins, but it wasn't the only factor. 

Finally, Genesis was well on its way to toppling Nintendo.  Remember, in the early 90's, how videogames were suddenly referred to as "Sega" instead of "Nintendo" or "Atari"?  The company name was becoming a household word and a constant pop-culture reference.  If it wasn't for the dumb moves by Sega's marketing department (Sega CD, the premature release of Saturn, etc., the 32X), Nintendo may have become a third-party company instead of the other way around.

But yeah, Mortal Kombat was kind of neat.

[RayB]

Not exactly.

[brophog]

Finally, Genesis was well on its way to toppling Nintendo.  Remember, in the early 90's, how videogames were suddenly referred to as "Sega" instead of "Nintendo" or "Atari"?

Maybe. Sega had some great ideas. The Dreamcast is still one of the most beloved consoles out there, featuring a sizeable library of quality titles. However, I don't remember the name Sega ever becoming synonmous in the way Atari, Nintendo or Playstation has. Maybe that's just in my part of the country.

The end result is that the Genesis never had nearly the amount of titles that the SNES did. The mutual ports on the Genesis were almost always inferior, some very much so. It never sold as much hardware, either. That may be hindsight on my part.  It's different looking back and remembering than being in the moment when things could have gone either way.

[ChadTower]

Keep in mind there is a large portion of the SNES library that is practically unplayable.

[brophog]

If by 'unplayable' you mean games that simply stink or shouldn't have been made, then most consoles can boast a large percentage of titles. The NES and Game Boy are fine testaments to that, and most would consider them overwhelming successes.

[ChadTower]

My comment was in response to the comment that the SNES had so many more games than the Genesis.  It doesn't matter, if you subtract the true garbage from the SNES library, they're about the same.

[DaveMMR]

Finally, Genesis was well on its way to toppling Nintendo.  Remember, in the early 90's, how videogames were suddenly referred to as "Sega" instead of "Nintendo" or "Atari"?

Maybe. Sega had some great ideas. The Dreamcast is still one of the most beloved consoles out there, featuring a sizeable library of quality titles. However, I don't remember the name Sega ever becoming synonmous in the way Atari, Nintendo or Playstation has. Maybe that's just in my part of the country.

The end result is that the Genesis never had nearly the amount of titles that the SNES did. The mutual ports on the Genesis were almost always inferior, some very much so. It never sold as much hardware, either. That may be hindsight on my part.  It's different looking back and remembering than being in the moment when things could have gone either way.

Listen to House of Pain's "Jump Around".  Watch "Billy Madison".  Listen to how Brodie is referred to as "Sega Boy" in Mallrats.  Try to catch that episode of Rosanne when DJ can't get a SNES for his b-day so he just plays with his friend's Genesis.  Those are four references right there.  Even some "new mommy" book my sister had contained some remark about how it's important to know how "Sega is cooler than Nintendo".

The SNES was a great little system, but back in the early 90's the Genesis was "cooler".  If you strictly comparing "ports" then that's like apples and oranges.  Some people only had SNES or Genesis and not both.  But what made people choose the Genesis over the SNES?  A more diverse library of games, including, as you mentioned, those niche sports titles (that practically turned EA into the powerhouse they are today), more "adult" characters (not GTA "adult" but not cutesy-wootsy like Nintendo's fare either) and an in-your-face ad campaign. 

By the way, I'm not saying this because I'm some Sega fanboy.  I actually prefer SMW over Sonic any 'ole day.  But the facts are the facts.

And, as a postscript, Chad's totally right.  There must be hundreds of SNES games that are complete wastes of microchips.  But, then again, the Genesis had that completely useless $300 add-on.

[RayB]

I chose the SNES over Genesis because it had:

A. Better graphics
B. Better sound
C. Nintendo games.  <-- very important

[AC.]

How about the Mystique made "games" for the 2600.  The raping, pixelated boobfest R-rated craptacular games made only for 1980s shock value.  Now they are great to play and show to others.

[DaveMMR]

How about the Mystique made "games" for the 2600.  The raping, pixelated boobfest R-rated craptacular games made only for 1980s shock value.  Now they are great to play and show to others.

If I gathered a group of people to show them "Custer's Revenge", I would be ostrasized forever.  And I wouldn't be quick calling them "great to play".  I've had more fun rolling pennies.

[the3eyedblindman]

How can you guys even compare the super nintendo to the Genesis? The Genesis is wayyyyyyy better. It is still my favorite system today. Sonic the hedgehog was far better than ANY series on super nintendo, maybe even any series today. The Sonic games are what probably get played the most on my mame cabinet, even though I have every Supernintendo, nintendo, genesis, and arcade game on it. They are just fun..plain and simple.

[MaximRecoil]

How can you guys even compare the super nintendo to the Genesis? The Genesis is wayyyyyyy better. It is still my favorite system today. Sonic the hedgehog was far better than ANY series on super nintendo, maybe even any series today. The Sonic games are what probably get played the most on my mame cabinet, even though I have every Supernintendo, nintendo, genesis, and arcade game on it. They are just fun..plain and simple.

It depends on what types of games you like. I have never been one for sports games (Genesis' strong point) other than the Punch-Out series, which Genesis didn't have and since I don't have ADHD, I didn't care for the Sonic games either (lol). In most areas, the SNES was technically superior to the Genesis on a hardware level, which stands to reason, being about a 2 year newer system, and had the better version of MK, SFII (SFII being a big selling point for me since I was already playing it regularly in the arcade at the time) and had the only version of excellent games such as Super Metroid, Super Punch-Out, Super Castlevania IV and Super Mario World.

For me, there was not one single "killer app" for the Genesis that made me want one; which is still true today. I actually have two of them that I got for free and a handful of games but they just collect dust and I can't even think of any game I want to seek out for it.

[RayB]

How can you guys even compare the super nintendo to the Genesis? The Genesis is wayyyyyyy better. It is still my favorite system today. Sonic the hedgehog was far better than ANY series on super nintendo, maybe even any series today. The Sonic games are what probably get played the most on my mame cabinet, even though I have every Supernintendo, nintendo, genesis, and arcade game on it. They are just fun..plain and simple.

See, this is where things stop making sense to me. I always felt Sonic was lame cuz all you did was run fast and collect rings. Most of the time it took luck not to hit things, because they came way to fast for you to react to anyways. It was a good game, but I wouldn't compare it to the game design genius that went into Super Mario World.  But I guess there are different kinds of players out there...

[MaximRecoil]

How can you guys even compare the super nintendo to the Genesis? The Genesis is wayyyyyyy better. It is still my favorite system today. Sonic the hedgehog was far better than ANY series on super nintendo, maybe even any series today. The Sonic games are what probably get played the most on my mame cabinet, even though I have every Supernintendo, nintendo, genesis, and arcade game on it. They are just fun..plain and simple.

See, this is where things stop making sense to me. I always felt Sonic was lame cuz all you did was run fast and collect rings. Most of the time it took luck not to hit things, because they came way to fast for you to react to anyways. It was a good game, but I wouldn't compare it to the game design genius that went into Super Mario World.

[ChadTower]

How about the Mystique made "games" for the 2600.  The raping, pixelated boobfest R-rated craptacular games made only for 1980s shock value.  Now they are great to play and show to others.

Nonlicensed and distributed by mail order only to practically no one.

[DaveMMR]

How about the Mystique made "games" for the 2600.  The raping, pixelated boobfest R-rated craptacular games made only for 1980s shock value.  Now they are great to play and show to others.

Nonlicensed and distributed by mail order only to practically no one.

Also sold in adult shops during the video game craze.  Unfortunately, furor over Custer's Revenge arose and the game ended up getting more attention (and selling more copies) than it deserved.

[ChadTower]

Also sold in adult shops during the video game craze.  Unfortunately, furor over Custer's Revenge arose and the game ended up getting more attention (and selling more copies) than it deserved.

Yeah, adult shops that ordered it from the same place the general public could order it from.  There are so few adult shops it's not statiscally significant.  There are so few here in MA you could probably number them safely under 50, and outside of major urban areas there are almost none.

[DaveMMR]

Also sold in adult shops during the video game craze.  Unfortunately, furor over Custer's Revenge arose and the game ended up getting more attention (and selling more copies) than it deserved.

Yeah, adult shops that ordered it from the same place the general public could order it from.  There are so few adult shops it's not statiscally significant.  There are so few here in MA you could probably number them safely under 50, and outside of major urban areas there are almost none.

Well it's always good to list the alternatives in case someone stubles across a Deloreon with time circuits and the settings at "early 80's" in case they want to pass the time while waiting for their plutonium to arrive by playing pornographic video games. 

By the way, I just love the stream of conciousness in this thread.  We went from talking about Mortal Kombat to comparing Genesis and SNES to adult video games (and I'm sure I skipped a few steps along the way).

[AC.]

You're right, the mystique games are not great to play.  Only great for the "HOLY LORD I can't believe they did that then!" factor.  What did they cost originally I wonder? $30?

Technology outside of nostalgia is a factor - think Wolferstien and Doom v. Quake3 and HalfLife.  I dont want to play Doom1 again, but I will forever play Robotron, Asteroids, 1943 etc.

[SuperGunGuru]

MK WILL be a classic eventually, and it is already to a lot of people.

[ChadTower]

I like Quake over modern versions... simplicity and quality are hard to balance.

[MaximRecoil]

As a site note, does anyone like MK2 that doesn't like MK (sorry if I missed an answer to this by scanning the thread)? I like MK2 thank MK. In the last few years I can see and agree with some critiques of MK's gameplay.

I prefer MK to MK2. I like the play mechanics better and I like the graphics and sounds better. The graphics looked more real and smooth, almost like you were looking at video on a standard resolution TV screen instead of computer graphics. MK2 and even more so with MK3 were too sharp or something. I don't really know how to put it into words exactly but the graphics technically got better in the sequels, but looked worse, i.e. less real.

[Witchboard]

I prefer MKII to MK.  I dropped a lot of money in these machines, but MKII is one I want for my home arcade.  Hidden characters, hidden levels, friendships, multiple fatalities per character, level specific fatalities, babalities... all sorts of extra content that you didn't see with a lot of other games.  Sure, you could get Akuma in SSFIITurbo with a joystick code or play Ken & Ryu vs. Bison in Alpha, but even though I love the Street Fighter series, they can't match the bonus content of MK.  I hated MK3.  When they added the run button it just turned into a combo game.  I'll play Killer Instict if I want to play a combo game... which I want for my home arcade as well. 

[Wade]

Most people consider "classic" video games those around 1980 or so.

[RayB]

That's why I said "around" 1980.

[ChadTower]

And the crappy 2d fighter clone age... the unimaginative side scrolling beat 'em up quarter sucker age...

[stratjakt]

How about the crappy 'eat dots in a maze' age.  It's not like Pac Man didn't have 90 gajillion clones.

There is no good or bad age or genre, really.  They're all a mixed bag.  For every original game out there, there are 50 clones.  For every good game, theres 50 bad ones.  It's always been that way.

That said, there's a whole slew of games which are popular just because they're popular, not because they're good or fun games.  That Pac Man marketing blitz midway pulled off in the early 80s has really stuck with us.