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Super Ultra-Mega Massive 49-way Review online at Retroblast!
KenToad:
Just for the record, I'm not a child. I happen to be 27. I played many classic games in their prime and afterwards, for as long as the arcades around my town stayed in business.
I think the Robotron fanatic in question here confused my attempt to balance my review by giving a little personal information and humility with some kind of ignorance on my part.
I would really love to see a video of the Robotron fanatic getting to level 30-something on a zero-slowdown emulation machine.
And for the record, the lovely description of "perfect" leaf-switch controls pretty much matches all the opinions I have heard and experienced with Randy's cool device.
Anyway, I believe in reserving judgement until I've tried something several times and gotten second opinions.
Please point me in the direction of your "Mint Condition Classic Arcades for Hardcore Middle-Aged Gamers" because I'd like to write an article about it. :)
Thanks for your input and for lending a little extra drama to this thread.
Cheers,
KenToad
Xiaou2:
"You have had no exposure to this product whatsoever. Therefore you are not qualified to make such statements. End of story I, however, watched someone who had never even touched this control combo before "kick a_s and take names" with every game he played. He was one of those high scoring gaming fanatics you refer to, not an "arcade politician" like yourself."
Well ok, Ill take that back. My OPINION, is that since the thing is not exacting as the original controller, it will function in a manor to preform less
accurately thus less performance.
As for your gamer guy - That prooves little. Give him the other control types to compare to, and then after several games of each, see how he feels about it, and how much better or worse he is with each type vs the 49way. Your 'test' is to throw a guy who knows nothing into a formula one racing car, and ask him how good it is in all situations. Just cause he can show some driving skills... does not qualifty him to understand all the things about how the car is handling, and works...ect. Also, it is the same for the reviewer.
Callling me an arcade politition? Thats just ridiculus. My whole life has been dedicated to gaming. A deep love and passion for them. Even designing them.
"This may surprise you, but advances in technology can actually provide better control mechanisms than were available 20+ years ago. Pardon me for saying so, but a little more objectivity on your part might be in order."
So being that a person who wants to feel the restriction of a 4way joy dosnt make him upset that its not there? A restrictor is not a marvel of New technology. Its a mechanical solution. The 49way is not new either. Its also pretty limited. A much better stick would probably be a Hall stick. Better resolution for any game type. However, these arnt made. Or, maybe an analog with invincible pots that andy mentioned. That sounded interesting. But anyway... your device while clever... is not the best solution by our wonderfull new technology standards. Not to insult you... but just to say I know what exist tecnologically. Most of this has NOTHING to do with technology. Its mostly all about mechanics.
Just like you now don't realize the benefits of the 49-ways with a GP-Wiz49 interface. Not everyone has the space (or desire) for a rotating monstrosity of a control panel. That doesn't mean they should suffer with a stick that only works well for a limited number of titles.
How do you know what I know? Actually, I did say there were some positives.
Im just stating my opinion that I will not accept a review for the device thats done by someone who dosnt have a background with the gametype, the controller..ect. I think this is a decent alternative to many sticks that are hard to find and expensive. However, I still stick to my guns in saying that Id prefer the real controls. I know not everyone can afford them or the space. Thats thier choice.
I think that was the "money shot"
A clip from a piece of text, and yet, its not behind its original context. I stated that one does not have to experience a device to understand how they may work and feel... because I have a deep knowledge of all the stick types, and a good understanding of mechanics. I see the rubber gromet can make gameplay very close to a leaf - thats great. However, for some games like the 4way where a restrictor is not there... theres nothing that can replace that. And that again is an opinion. However, its a technical observation that needs no hands on test to see. Also, since Ive not tested the leaf games with it - I can not promote the thing. And I would not consider them, unless a Qualified leaf guy said they were
great. There are many factors besides the opto positions that make a great stick. Everything from throw distance on the top side of the stick, to resistances, to bottom throw (leverage point), deadzones for non safe zero movment, and a lot more. If any of these are off a bit, it can alter playability to a point that is unacceptable to me... and many who actually enjoy playing well.
"Control perfection" in someone's living room doesn't exist. It can't.
---smurf-poo---. This isnt rocket science!
Even your bizzaro contol panel with what you seem to think has every control (some of which are not original because you made parts of them yourself) isn't like the real deal.
That Page and design is old. Ive since changed my design to a horizontal rotator, and the paneles and controls will be different. And Ive got all arcade original parts now. The first incarnation was offbase because my own lack of understanding of original controls.. and also a lack of funds. The next incarnaiton will be much more authentic and jaw droppingly cool : ) (i hope :)
True authenticity would dictate specific mounting angles and heights for each control as they existed on each machine. Otherwise, this would affect your interaction with them, not to mention button spacing and the like.
Its not hard to mount a wheel at a propper angle. However.. to make a statement of contestment... I have a TX-1 in an original cabnet. Its leg space under the mounted wheel is so small, that my legs can not fit under the wheel without hitting it. I have to angle my knee and feet way outward just to get to the pedal without hitting the wheel. This was a poor cab design - which actually lead to its demise and rarity. However, what is more important in not the height or angles- but the actual controls themselves.
There were also how many? different leaf and/or microswitch joysticks out there, each with their own mechanical dynamic? Do you expect us to believe that you have (and use) the original stick for every one of the games you play?
There are many clones of the same type of stick. But yes, I have many of the real controllers. And will use them in my new design. I didnt think it was a big deal before.. but Ive been converted... and I will do my best to keep that feeling and control as accrurate as possible.
Your concept of perfection seems to go only as far as you deem fit and you seem to think everyone else should take your version of it as the benchmark. I'm not sure who it is you think you are to make a determination like that, but I remain unimpressed. I'm sure others have their own thoughts on this as well.
My idea of perfection is a controller that performs as well or better than the original arcade hardware. Why is that so hard to understand or desire? Im also not forceing anyone to my standards.
" No, actually, it is. You are a user of technology. You have never invented nor engineered a controller that was in comercial use, nor have you really worked in the "industry" in a capacity that would qualify you to make such blind determinations. You have already been rightfully sluffed off by someone who had worked in the "industry", in previous threads where you made similar statements. Without actually knowing what was going through the minds of the designers, engineers, and business people at SEGA, NAMCO, STERN, UNIVERSAL, etc...., you are spewing nothing but uniformed conjecture, and the quality of conjecture is only as good as the intellect behind it.
Arcade "managers" were the most egregious violators of keeping original controls on games. When faced with the choice between a loss of income or installing a sub-par control into a machine, you know what the decision was. In fact, it would surprise me greatly if you yourself weren't guilty of such a thing at least once in your illustrious arcade manager career."
First off, I do not believe I was Sluffed off. I simply didnt care to finish the argument. It was obvious he had no clue. He was from a differnt erra of gaming than todays gaming. Back in the older times, things were done much differently.
My thoughts are based on mechanical FACT. Its not hard to see it. Anyone with any mechanical ability can. Just cause I didnt invent the things or talk it over with a designer dosnt mean I can not understand why something was done the way it was. In fact, the hardware actually shows you why.
As for my arcade carrear... Theres many things that I got from that job. One was a huge understanding of how many mechanical mechaisms worked and were constructed. It wa great to see all these many ways that they were designed. And I could see where many of them failed - vs - the designs from others that lasted. I at times had to improvise a better sloution at times for games with poor mechanical designs. And yes, I was guilty once of taking leaf joys off a simpsons - and replacing them with micros. The leafs got bent too often, and needed cleaning too often. This dosnt mean that I do not know what Im talking about. I can tell you... working in that arcade was not an easy job. With 43 games... at least 2 would break down for some reason each week. I learned a Lot from that job though. More than I could possibly convey in words.
Actually, the "average joe" is precisely the person that should be doing this. He doesn't have all your "experience" to cloud his judgement. All he knows is whether things happen on the screen in direct response to his actions, precisely as they did for you the first time you played any of the "classics" you keep talking about.
lol. what a joke that paragraph is. A guy goes to buy a motorbike. Has no clue what to buy. Never rode any other bike before.. except once as a kid for a few days. Jumps on one - tests it to the best of his Knowlegde, and buys it immediately. He had no clue as to if the other bikes were better suited to the type of conditions he was riding on. No clue as to the comfort level that the bike had compared to the other bikes. No clue as to how the suspention worked compared to other bikes suspentions. Was the bike set up for racing? Or for the street? The guy thinks its fine - but - that dosnt mean its the best solution for that guys needs. Hes just a fool that made an uninformed, uneducated desigion.
Hehe, yeah, wouldn't have been any bias there. Face it, it came off a lot better than you wanted it to, so you won't accept it. It won't matter if 50 people said the same thing (and from listening to the comments of my customers, they do), it won't be good enough for you.
As much as you think.. Im not biased to you or your products. I may think you act as a tool at times.. but that dosnt mean that you are all that bad compared to some others here. And that dosnt mean that I wish you failure, or bad fortune. I welcome a good product.
This stick might make for a decent mini machine for example... that I may build in the future. But that dosnt mean I should not let my opinions be heard, and to be dis-satisifed with the poor review quality.
Xiaou2:
Kentoad,
Come to Rochester NY and theres a little place called
"Fantasy Raceways"
Games I can remember in there (havnt been there in a few months):
Centipede
(2 linked) Race Drivin's
Atari X O football
Tempest (with mutli game kit)
Asteroids Deluxe
Super Hang on
Tron
Discs of Tron enviornmental
Mr Do
Virtua Racing Sd 2player w/ camera monitor installed
Sea wolf
Battle Zone
Ms pacman (with mult select kit)
Robotron
Missile command
Monaco Gp mini standup
Twilight zone pinball
2 other pins that rotate
http://fantasyraceways.mine.nu/
Rodger was so kind, as to let me take his Discs of Tron artwork, and I scanned it in and hand edited it, for use in mame.
I know many collectors here too.. so I may be able to arrange for you to see many more classic games and pins.
Sincerely,
Steve
RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on July 02, 2005, 03:25:38 pm --- As for your gamer guy - That prooves little. Give him the other control types to compare to, and then after several games of each, see how he feels about it, and how much better or worse he is with each type vs the 49way. Your 'test' is to throw a guy who knows nothing into a formula one racing car, and ask him how good it is in all situations. Just cause he can show some driving skills... does not qualifty him to understand all the things about how the car is handling, and works...ect. Also, it is the same for the reviewer.
--- End quote ---
We aren't talking formula one racing :) We are talking about whether to buy a Hundai or a Honda. The plain fact is, a user will try out an item and come to a conclusion based on their own needs. Why do you think there are so many successful types of vehicles and so many companies that make them? Point in fact: Audis may be great cars, but if you have a sub-compact budget and you are 6 1/2 feet tall, you won't be buying one.
And my gamers prove a lot. It proves that someone of skill was not hampered by the controls. That has always been the goal, and it looks to have been achieved. I could give two nickels about whether it was a "perfect"replication of the original, so long as it performed as well. I watched him breeze through level after level of Pengo in 4-way DRS mode, with no apparent difficulty at all. He got bored at about 15 minutes into the game and quit. To me, this speaks volumes.
--- Quote ---My whole life has been dedicated to gaming. A deep love and passion for them. Even designing them.
--- End quote ---
Really? Anything we've heard of? What is your professional involvement in gaming nowadays? Surely someone with your expertise and self-proclaimed devotion is still working in the "industry."
--- Quote ---Not to insult you... but just to say I know what exist tecnologically. Most of this has NOTHING to do with technology. Its mostly all about mechanics.
--- End quote ---
Well, not to insult you either, but I guess you should try to come up with a new solution that works better then. Be sure to keep us all updated on your progress, if you don't mind.
BTW, I'm sure the designers of the car you drive would find it humorous that you don't equate mechanics with technology.
--- Quote ---
Im just stating my opinion that I will not accept a review for the device thats done by someone who dosnt have a background with the gametype, the controller..ect.
--- End quote ---
We've all heard your opinions before. It looks like a number of us don't value them.
--- Quote ---There are many factors besides the opto positions that make a great stick. Everything from throw distance on the top side of the stick, to resistances, to bottom throw (leverage point), deadzones for non safe zero movment, and a lot more. If any of these are off a bit, it can alter playability to a point that is unacceptable to me... and many who actually enjoy playing well.
--- End quote ---
And, I suppose you think you are the first guy to have considered any of this. I think I finally ran across someone with an ego bigger than my own. :)
--- Quote --- ---smurf-poo---. This isnt rocket science!
--- End quote ---
My point exactly. :)
--- Quote ---This was a poor cab design - which actually lead to its demise and rarity. However, what is more important in not the height or angles- but the actual controls themselves.
--- End quote ---
You mean the arcade "gods" were capable of something less than pure perfection? Blasphemy!
--- Quote ---There are many clones of the same type of stick. But yes, I have many of the real controllers.
--- End quote ---
They are not "clones", they are sticks with similar methods of operation. Each one will have it's very own mechanical dynamic, that the others will not be able to match properly. It's yet another situation where you are deciding what is "close enough" and what isn't.
And I didn't ask if you had many, I asked if you had "all" of the original controls and used them for every game you play. So I'll take that as a "no" and then ask how you make the determination as to which ones are worthy of the exactness you think others should use.
--- Quote ---My idea of perfection is a controller that performs as well or better than the original arcade hardware. Why is that so hard to understand or desire? Im also not forceing anyone to my standards.
--- End quote ---
Yet you have no idea as to whether this is the case with the 49-ways, so it seems you have a different idea than the one you just conveyed. As to what you are forcing, it appears only to be "your opinions down the throats of others". Why else would you be so compelled to denegrate a product you have not tried, or a review in which you have no frame of reference?
--- Quote --- First off, I do not believe I was Sluffed off. I simply didnt care to finish the argument. It was obvious he had no clue. He was from a differnt erra of gaming than todays gaming. Back in the older times, things were done much differently. My thoughts are based on mechanical FACT. Its not hard to see it. Anyone with any mechanical ability can. Just cause I didnt invent the things or talk it over with a designer dosnt mean I can not understand why something was done the way it was. In fact, the hardware actually shows you why.
--- End quote ---
Believe what you want. You were called on your misinformation by someone who actually knew what they were talking about and you had no way to counter. I have patents with my name on them and have worked with IP enough to know how decisions are made about technology and innovation. It's business, my friend, and until you are actually part of it, you will never know the thought processes that go into the things you use every day of your life. Suffice it to say that there is far more than basic engineering principle that dictates the final form a product will take. To assume anything else is naivety in it's purest state.
RandyT
KenToad:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on July 02, 2005, 03:38:21 pm ---
Kentoad,
Come to Rochester NY and theres a little place called
"Fantasy Raceways"
Games I can remember in there (havnt been there in a few months):
Centipede
(2 linked) Race Drivin's
Atari X O football
Tempest (with mutli game kit)
Asteroids Deluxe
Super Hang on
Tron
Discs of Tron enviornmental
Mr Do
Virtua Racing Sd 2player w/ camera monitor installed
Sea wolf
Battle Zone
Ms pacman (with mult select kit)
Robotron
Missile command
Monaco Gp mini standup
Twilight zone pinball
2 other pins that rotate
http://fantasyraceways.mine.nu/
Rodger was so kind, as to let me take his Discs of Tron artwork, and I scanned it in and hand edited it, for use in mame.
I know many collectors here too.. so I may be able to arrange for you to see many more classic games and pins.
Sincerely,
Steve
--- End quote ---
Steve,
If they don't have Karate Champ Vs., I'm not coming. ;)
You're right, I probably wouldn't want to play most of those games in Rochester with a 49-way joystick, Kensington trackballs maybe, although I'd definitely hit the Robotron for a little authentic slowdown. ;D
Is it okay if I play Tron with a flightstick and homemade spinner?
How about Asteroids Deluxe with Happ Microswitch buttons?
Does the DOT environmental really make you feel like you're in the movie?
Is the Super Hang-On the one with the bike that you have to lean to steer? That one always seemed so cool, but incredibly more difficult to control than your standard motorcycle handlebars.
I wonder how often they have to clean the leafs on the Ms. Pac-Man?
I didn't even know that leafs had to be cleaned until you posted here. Thanks for the info.
I only play Twilight Zone on VPinmame.
I'm sure they're hiding the Theater of Magic in the back room for the tech guys and their trusted allies.
Anyway, I'll try to convince my fiancee and some of her hottest friends to go up to Rochester with me and meet some guys who ONLY play with the perfect controls.
See you soon.
Cheers,
KenToad
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