GunCon2 on PC-monitor

[Silver]

Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways.

Holding out? Is one being developed? I figured it would take either complete reverse engineering of the HOTD3 style infra red system (which I think you are referring) - but them you may as well develop your own from scratch (which Andy from Ultimarc started doing, but then scrapped when he had issues and the guncon hack came along.....


On the guncon-with-VGA front, I've (finally!) got a circuit built to convert the VGA H/V syncs to composite sync that the guncon can use (thanks to Mr. Warne and his J-pac sync converting chips...). I've also got a 9V power supply ready for the Scorpion guns I've borrowed to test (they apparantly don't work from USB power alone, probably due to there 'laser sighting' or different circuitry - just need to check which pins in the PS connector I need to power).

I'm just hacking up a VGA cable for testing now (man these modern moulded-plastic ends are ridiculous. Turns out to be 10x quicker to snip the end of f, test all the cables and then resolder to a new 15-way.) Have a quick question though - I'm going to want to take of the H and V syncs off the VGA, but still feed my VGA monitor with them for the picture (obviously). Can I just pull them without causing problems with the signal? I know R,G,B are all terminated to 75 Ohms in the monitor - not 100% sure about the syncs. Even if they are, will I upset the termination by running the syncs into another IC?
     Or am I going to have to come up with some kind of distribution device (You can't just split all the VGA signals - you mess up the termination). There is probably an obvious way round this...

[Smog]

Is it fair to call this Vapourware? Or are people still optimistic? Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways. But I do have a few guncons sitting around that I'd try out if this circuit ever materialized.
Joseph Elwell.

I spent a lot of time to make a lightgun work on my mame-cab and I finally found a solution that I consider "epocal". Maybe Guncon2Mouse driver suite is far from perfection but it has proved it works. So the answer is : <No! Not it is not fair indeed.>

[AceTKK]

I believe he was referring to making the Guncon work on a PC monitor.  Nobody in their right mind would call your or Acorn's work vaporware.

[Smog]

Ooops ... maybe you are right I always use that word for software, that's why I got confused. Sorry

[jelwell]

Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways.

Holding out? Is one being developed? I figured it would take either complete reverse engineering of the HOTD3 style infra red system (which I think you are referring) - but them you may as well develop your own from scratch (which Andy from Ultimarc started doing, but then scrapped when he had issues and the guncon hack came along.....

I wasn't aware that Andy gave up on that. Too bad since it's superior technology to even the GunCon2 guns.

Is it fair to call this Vapourware? Or are people still optimistic? Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways. But I do have a few guncons sitting around that I'd try out if this circuit ever materialized.
Joseph Elwell.

I spent a lot of time to make a lightgun work on my mame-cab and I finally found a solution that I consider "epocal". Maybe Guncon2Mouse driver suite is far from perfection but it has proved it works. So the answer is : <No! Not it is not fair indeed.>

Indeed I was referring to the "GunCon2 on PC-Monitor", which is what the title of this thread is. - which Zeropoint seems to have falsely stated, "I am happy to announce that the GunCon2 compatible guns now work excellent on PC-monitors (CRT) even at high resolutions."

Thank you for you work Smog.
Joseph Elwell.

[ZeroPoint]

- which Zeropoint seems to have falsely stated, "I am happy to announce that the GunCon2 compatible guns now work excellent on PC-monitors (CRT) even at high resolutions."

This circuit still works great...the statement is NOT false ! The problem is that I still haven't got time to finish it...(Make schematics, pcb-layoyt etc.) There is also a little voltage-correction I have to do on the output since there is no impedance in the guns.

The circuit mainly works by dividing the horizontal sync signal and at the same time getting the right sync width. If you read in Smog

[jelwell]

Call me pessimistic, but I've seen light guns come and go. Yes I know that one was a joke, but it's actually backed up with more evidence than some projects that promise legitimate results, and then disappear - sometimes before they begin. Once in a while, in the end, something legitimate shows up.

Zeropoint, call me scientific since I've never been strong in faith. I just don't think anything could possibly work "excellent"ly unless it was good enough to actually release.

In the end, of course, I'm just a jealous man who wants what you claim to have.
Joseph Elwell.

[Silver]

The circuit mainly works by dividing the horizontal sync signal and at the same time getting the right sync width. If you read in Smog

[Silver]

I wasn't aware that Andy gave up on that. Too bad since it's superior technology to even the GunCon2 guns.

Yes I thought it was a real shame. I think it had problems with the display interferring with the infrared detectors, and then the guncon announcement was made.
   I'd still like to see a solution that makes the display irrelevant (therefore tracks and no issues with changing resolution) and also accurate (sorry eReal). If I can get 2 guncons working on a VGA monitor with tracking I'll be more than happy.

Actually one of the best alternitives I've come across is a system called TrackIR from Naturalpoint. Its a high-speced USB camera with built-in infrared emitters, and it tracks a reflective dot you can stick on anything. Works very well apparantly, but the real clever bit is that they have developed a "vector expansion" unit which is basically an odd 3D 'shape' add-on that they can track with 6 degrees of freedom - so basically you could walk out your house with it, come back in, and not need to recalibrate. Unfortunately - expensive, no proper support for this kind of use, only 1 device supported at a time, and - the real killer - a very limited field of view for tracking.

[ZeroPoint]

Silver: Apologies if you've posted this before, but did you ever post the circuit that you used to get the setup working? Or is that what you are working on?

No, I haven

[Silver]

Hi,

good luck finishing it off - I've got a scorpion3 I'll be testing soon.

Quite interesting in you earlier comment about sync width - sounds like you've done some testing with what does and does not work. Are you able to post/pm info about what's needed?

[Acorn]

Greetings!

Zero - both Smog and I have acheived a "pure" flash. In other words, brightening the screen to a level which the gun can track EVERYWHERE on. At first I was using pure grey (think dreamcast) but now, I brighten everything that is less than the grey up to the grey, and just smooth the rest out. Makes it look really nice but has the same effect allowing for perfect accuracy.

[ZeroPoint]

Thanks, Acorn !

I am really looking forward to test it as soon as I can. 

[Silver]

Well its taken me far longer than expected, mainly though excessive stupidity, but heres a quick video of me taking on some cardboard cut-out ninjas in Point Blank in mame (which is pretty much the distance I was shooting from!  )

...all at the merry resolution of 1024x768i, courtesy of the microchip that's used in a Jpac.

http://www.silverfoxy.plus.com/Guncon.html

[fl0yd]

That looks great.

[lesserChance]

So I have a question that was probably already answered in one of the other threads about this:  Is the GunCon2 more accurate than the Act Labs ones?  I have a set of the old act labs guns, and they work alright, but the aim gets screwed up when near the edges of the screen, or if there are two players...

[SirPoonga]

and then disappear

HEY!
A review for GL will be up shortly.  The unfortunate events of getting a new job then my arcade computer dieing pretty much prevented that from happening right away

Anyway.  So what's the summary on this right now?  Are we close to having this available for the public?

[SQrL]

I've done some searching but can't seem to find instructions on how to get this working (I know a JPAC is required).  Anyone wanna help me out and write some destructions for this dummy?   

[Smog]

Well done man !!!!What about accuracy ? Did you notice anything

[ZeroPoint]

...all at the merry resolution of 1024x768i, courtesy of the microchip that's used in a Jpac.

Hi, Silver !

Congratulations on your success !

Do you really have to use interlaced mode to make it work ?

Note! I don

[Lilwolf]

btw, does it seem like it will always need a jpac?

[tivogre]

btw, does it seem like it will always need a jpac?  (I have a ipac4... not going to a jpac) 

I would love the get a set of these, but don't know if its possible.

btw, anyone try outputting to both VGA and TV-OUT at the same time and then use the composite out for sync?  or is that just a pipedream?

I'm trying this now with the guncons I just received;  so far, no dice.

I've verified the "cloned" desktop on a 13" TV via s-video to composite converter.

The gun IS recognized by the driver when pointed at the Wells Gardner D9200.

However, I can't calibrate it correctly.

The cursor "responds" to movement of the gun, but it's jumpy (all over the place).\

If I point the gun at the 13" TV when calibrating, it calibrates correctly.

I can only (so far) hypothesize that there is some difference / delay between the s-video output syncs and the VGA syncs feeding the D9200.

Any help / advice appreciated.

[ZeroPoint]

btw, anyone try outputting to both VGA and TV-OUT at the same time and then use the composite out for sync?  or is that just a pipedream?

Don

[Lilwolf]

COOL!  So you are working a solution that will work without a jpac!

I wasn't sure if the only work was being done requiring a jpac.

[Silver]

Hi,

Sorry for general lack of info - not been around much since. When I posted that I thought I had to use interlace modes - although since I've had success in just plain old progressive. I've had a catalogue of minor errors on this such as one of my 2 guns not working at all - but me assuming it just wasn't working with my setup, it also appears that being 100Hz gun, the scorpion may well have 2 "modes" to cater for progressive output - what and how to switch the modes I have no idea - presumably 1st thing its pointed at, but fiddly when you are testing with powerstrip. I was also not terminating the sync signal correctly (it appears the composite connector on the gun does not terminate the signal - this is perhaps obvious as its a pass through, but I'm still surprised).

I havn't actually got it hooked up to a TV yet so can't compare accuracy. It gets slightly less accurate as you increase resolution (ie smallest hop in 1024x768i was around "5" units directly reported by the gun, moves down to 2/3 at 800x600. Still playable with though.

Anyway, i don't actually own a jpac - I was just provided with the chip off it that converts vga syncs to composite for testing. As the Jpac is quite pricey for this, and it looks like zeropoints got a working circuit from the ground up it may well be best/cheaper to see what he comes up with. I'll try and post a wiring diagram tomorrow for the chip.

I don't think I'm going to get much time to play with this again till next week - I'd like to test more to sort out what progressive resolutions are ok and if the gun really is changing modes at all....

[Silver]

Quick bit of info:

You don't need a JPAC - you can order the chip seperately from ultimarc directly. Its the "JPAC small chip" from the upgrade page on the ultimarc site:

www.ultimarc.com/upgrade.html

I think it costs $8. The circuit for wiring is shown below. 680R is a 680 Ohm resistor, C1 is a 10 micro farad capacitor (rated at 16V). All the grounds from the syncs can be wired together.

[Silver]

Note while I've had mine working, I'm still testing and have not always had it working 1st time. For the record, I also added some extras to the above circuit to smooth out the output a bit when I could not get it working. However, it was not working for other reasons it turns out.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Here's my board (ignore everything that isn't around the chip - thats a couple of other circuits to smooth the output and also to give me a regulated 5V supply from a higher input.)

[tivogre]

Anyone know if this device:





http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/PC-TV_GTM-2000.html

...would work to get the VGA sync signal for the gun.

Looks like it has a VGA pass through and simultaneous composite output.

Shouldn't this work?

It costs about $80.00... one of these and two guncons is still cheaper than 2 ACTLABs.

[dabone]

That shouldn't work because it's a frame buffer that re-renders the signal to meet the output independent of the input (i.e. the sync won't be the same)


Later,
dabone

[jelwell]

Silver, congratulations and thank you for the circuit.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Hmm, should I hack one up now? Or does anyone know if Andy plans on selling a kit? I am both handy and lazy, but mostly lazy.
Joseph Elwell.

[tivogre]

<EDIT TO REDUCE CONFUSION...

THE CIRCUIT PICTURED IN THIS POST IS THE WRONG CIRCUIT FOR A VGA MONITOR / WG D9200.  I INCORRECTLY BUILT THE 15kHz (ARCADE) MONITOR CIRCUIT.  IM LEAVING THE POST HERE FOR CONTINUITY, BUT THE CIRCUIT YOU NEED FOR VGA / WG D9200 IS NOT THE ONE IN THIS POST.

/EDIT To REDUCE CONFUSION>


OK....

I broke down and ordered the parts and built "the circuit".



Now,  before I proceed, I have a question about hooking up this circuit between the VGA card and the monitor...

Here's my understanding of what I need to do now:

1.  Cut a VGA cord into 2 parts

2.  Find the wires corresponding to SGND (10), HSYNC (13) and VSYNC (14)

3.  Solder a "pigtail" lead from each of the 3 identified wires to the appropriate input wire on the circuit board

4.  Reconnect all of the wires in the VGA cable

5.  Connect "Hacked" VGA cable between VGA card and monitor as per normal VGA cord

6.  Use the Composite Sync output from the circuit to connect the GUNCONs

Did I get any of this wrong or leave anything out?

I'm just leery of messing up my monitor or VGA card.

In case it matters, the monitor is a 27" Wells Gardner D9200.  The VGA card is an NVidea FX series.

I'd like to try this out tomorrow... but I'm looking for some assurance from the kind experts here first.

Thanks in advance!

[Smog]

tivogre, But isn't the circuit in the picture the one I used to connect the gun to a 15Khz VGA ? It is not what they are talking about here.

However I had better results sending the composite sync to the monitor from the same wire I use for to the gun instead of sending separate syncs to the monitor and composite to the gun ... maybe this helps you to.

[tivogre]

tivogre, But isn't the circuit in the picture the one I used to connect the gun to a 15Khz VGA ? It is not what they are talking about here.

However I had better results sending the composite sync to the monitor from the same wire I use for to the gun instead of sending separate syncs to the monitor and composite to the gun ... maybe this helps you to.

OK Now I'm REALLY confused!

The circuit above is the one linked to from intruderalert's page with all the examples of "known working" connection methods.

http://intruderalert.myarcade.org/GUNCON2.htm#VGA

At the bottom of the section on VGA Monitors, he shows this picture;  hacking the VGA cable into "the circuit" is where I think I am now.



Is this, or is this not what I need for my application?

If it is, do I have the correct method to USE the circuit listed out above?

[Acorn]

In this case, I think he was reffering to the thread - this thread has been about a circuit to allow 31Khz monitors to work with the guncon2. The methods used in intruderalerts guide is to connect from a VGA out to a 15Khz monitor, which I believe is what yours is.

[Cananas]

Silver,

I bought a jpac small chip to Andy and I built the circuit you post but it doesn't work for me.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Sorry, but I don't know what this circuit do. Please Andy, could you explain us how it works?

Thanks.

PD. My guncon2 gun works perfectly with my TV both with the vga-scart with the sync circuit and TV out.

[Silver]

The chip basically divides the horizontal clock frequency in half, and generates a composite sync signal from this. You feed it the seperate horizontal sync and vertical sync from your VGA graphics card (usually by cutting up a VGA able or using a VGA->BNC cable) and use the output sync on pin1 to feed to the composite video connector attached to the gun.

[tivogre]

Andy has updated the wiring diagram for this application on his site, tying pins 2 and 4 to ground:



I'm not sure if this will solve your problem or not, but it's worth a shot.

[Cananas]

@Silver:
Thank you. So basically, divide the 31KHz to 15Khz and make a composite sync... Oauu! Only one chip to do more than the circuit i built to connect the guncon2 to my old TV/Arcade monitor! (The same circuit that Tivogre posted previosly).

@Tivogre:
Thank You. I'll try it. The capacitor is also diferent: 16uF->100nF and i don't know if is electrolitic or not.
BTW, which is the link to the page of Andy including this circuit?

Thanks again,

[tivogre]

The link is:

http://www.ultimarc.com/images/guncon.jpg

It's just the picture I posted.

[jelwell]

Call me lazy, but does Andy plan on selling pre-wired Guncon to PC chips? With shipping from the UK so expensive I'd almost rather pay extra for a finished product than going to my local shop to get the needed capacitor and resister and deal with soldering again.
Joseph Elwell.