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Here we go again... dead detainee cover up at "The Salt Pit"
Crazy Cooter:
I'd agree with you if the ones committing the acts were the only ones at fault. But there's a bigger problem here. Why is there this kind of effort to circumvent the Geneva Conventions and our own constitution? Why are places like The Salt Pit created? Why are people in high positions making decisions to encourage and facilitate this behaivior?
I don't understand how someone (who I don't know) can tell our troops to go over there to spread democracy and then in the same breath create places like this. This is what we're supposed to be fighting against.
This guy will get court martialled (hopefully), but what about the people that gave the orders to create it in the first place? All they did was shuffle the shells around.
"The brick factory has since been torn down, and the CIA has built a facility somewhere else."
DrewKaree:
--- Quote from: Santoro on March 04, 2005, 10:48:23 pm ---
But please, stop hyperventilating about how the the US as a whole doesn't know what freedom is. It is a crazy stretch, and it doesn't hold up.
--- End quote ---
I came across this while looking for something for dwayne....seems to fit and mebbe you can take something from it. Cheer up, Dave, the majority of folks see the greater good and don't assign the same "throw 'em all under the bus" idea to what we're achieving. Perhaps you've heard the Ward Churchill uproar....he shares similar concepts, as you can see.
"What to Do With Misguided Americans
Friday, February 11, 2005
By Bill O'Reilly
(I know, many just stopped reading and will ignore it or "there you go" to themselves)
Wendy, I'm withholding her last name, who lives in Michigan, wrote me an e-mail Wednesday night, saying:
"O'Reilly, out of all the hate groups in America, you go after Ward Churchill who speaks the truth. Have you read the real history of the USA? Attacks on this country, verbal or violent, are the results of hundreds of years of not minding our manners."
Now as we mentioned Wednesday, about 10 percent of Americans feel the way this woman does, that's 30 million people. The question, how do you handle these folks? In your personal life you should walk away. Don't bother trying to convince Wendy of anything. There's no way anyone is going to change their point of view because it's irrational. Stay away from irrational people. It's always good advice.
But statements from anti-American people should be confronted in the arena of ideas. Anyone thinks the USA is a bad country should be directed to cemeteries all over Europe, all over the Pacific Islands and memorials in South Korea and scores of other countries attesting to the fact that brave Americans died defending people from terrible villains. That's real history.
No country on this planet has freed more human beings than the USA. That's real history. America is not a perfect place, but it is a place that respects human life and freedom.
Let's take Vietnam, for example. Extremists like Jane Fonda and Ward Churchill condemned U.S. action there, but when I visited in 1992, scores of South Vietnamese came up to me saying how much they despised the communist government.
And indeed, almost a million Vietnamese were put into concentration camps after the U.S. left. And two million people were murdered by the communist government in neighboring Cambodia.
America was in Vietnam to prevent the spread of communism, which is a brutal form of government. Right now, the USA is facing another brutal evil, terrorism. And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."
We're doing the right thing, and punishing the abuses that are happening.
Crazy Cooter:
So are the CIA guys that are still creating these camps misguided too?
Bill can't comprehend the other side of the fence here:
"America was in Vietnam to prevent the spread of communism, which is a brutal form of government. Right now, the USA is facing another brutal evil, terrorism. And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."
Umm, yeah Bill... China is just like terrorists and 30 million US citizens are hoping for another terrorist attack. ::) This is exactly my point when i said people can be blinded by pride. He can't look at this objectively. Not to mention his #'s for Cambodia are wrong. In 1975 there was about 7.5 Million people in Cambodia. Not to belittle anything, but the Govmnt did not murder every 4th man, woman, and child. I *believe* it was around 1/4 million over the span of 30+ years. My point is that the numbers he says are waaaay off. Just like his "understanding" of what is going on now.
saint:
See, this is why Bill comes across to so many people as a nimrod instead of a rational conservative voice. He goes from quoting Wendy:
--- Quote from: DrewKaree on March 05, 2005, 10:56:53 pm ---"O'Reilly, out of all the hate groups in America, you go after Ward Churchill who speaks the truth. Have you read the real history of the USA? Attacks on this country, verbal or violent, are the results of hundreds of years of not minding our manners."
--- End quote ---
to this:
--- Quote ---"And people like Wendy and Churchill are rooting for the terrorists. There's something morally wrong with that position. So again, it must be confronted and condemned by loyal Americans."
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry - I don't see anywhere in what Wendy said that she was rooting for the terrorists. Bill, it is possible to think your country has done something wrong and still love your country. Here's an analogy:
Kid "a" picks on another kid "b." Teases and taunts. Kid "b" takes a stick and beats the heck out of kid "a." The parent of kid "a" finds out the details, and tells kid "a" that he was wrong to have taunted/teased kid "b." The parent also takes the kid to the hospital, presses charges against kid "b," and does whatever else most people would think is appropriate such as teaching kid "a" self-defense, urging the school to address kid "b" to keep kid "a" safe, etc. It's acknowledged that while kid "a" was wrong in taunting kid "b," kid "b" was clearly wrong to respond the way kid 'b" did.
Bill's logic in condemning Wendy as an disloyal American who is rooting for the terrorists is analagous to someone telling the parent of kid "a" that they are a disloyal parent who doesn't love their kid and thinks kid "b" was right for beating the tar out of kid "a" just because the parent condemned kid "a" for taunting/teasing kid "b."
Well, that's just stupid. It's entirely possible, logical, and consistent to condemn the behavior of our country prior to terrorist attacks on our country, while condemning the actions of the terrorists.
Now, whether or not you agree with the position that our country's policies encouraged the terrorist attacks on us is one thing. To call in question the loyalty and to condemn those who do so is another. I think Ward is a nimrod who had no sensitivity to those who were hurt in the 9/11 attacks. Somewhere in his inane essay though was the point that it is the policies of our country that led to this attack. Wendy's point clearly seems to be that she believes America's policies have alienated other people and caused them to hate us. Maybe that's a valid point, maybe it's not. However, if she believes it then not only is it her right as an American to express that point, by God it's practically her patriotic duty to do so.
A parent who thinks her child is going astray has a duty to say so and do something about it. A loyal citizen of a country isn't any different when concerning the behavior/policies of their country. That doesn't mean they are rooting for our enemies. That's a plain falsehood and I firmly believe Bill knows that.
So Bill, who could have taken the opportunity to either 1) affirm the perspective that America's policies have led to anti-American hatred, or 2) deny that America's policies have led to anti-American hatred, instead chose to go on about how great America is and to encourage everyone to condemn Wendy as a disloyal American for speaking her mind on the issue.
Yes, I love my country, think we're the good guys, and believe that America truly is a great country -- that doesn't mean I always agree with what it does. The attitude that you have to agree with everything your country does if you love it is moronic. Nothing I see from Wendy's quote indicates that she hates or is disloyal to her country.
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I read and watch Bill fairly often. Sometimes he has points I agree with, sometimes I don't, but either way he often gives me something to think about. Then he does something stupid like this. Bill knows better and should be ashamed of himself.
--- saint
mr.Curmudgeon:
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