rant - Frontends

[paigeoliver]

Just getting extremely frustrated here, it seems that each and every new frontend version is more and more convoluted and requires more and more magic mojo to actually get them to work.

What happened to the old days when you put the front end in the emulator directory and ran it and it worked.

I just spend 4 hours installing Kymeara including a massive windows update required to run it. Of course I can't use it as (as is common with almost all frontends these days) the gamelist generation software is broken and exits with a "parameter must be positive" message.

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

[Mameotron]

I'll second your rantings - I have NEVER been able to simply install and run a frontend without spending hours (sometimes days) deciphering the "simple and intuitive" instructions for configuring and running the thing.

I use TurboMAME.  It has no exciting features, can't navigate with a joystick, but it works.  All I had to do was install it and click on the icon.  Why can't all frontends be like this?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I have at least managed to get the current version of mamewah to load after going through yet another windows update.

But this is still all just nuts. I am the guy who owns 30 computers, the guy who everyone brings their computer to in order to fix them. I am that guy and I still can't get 90 percent of the frontends out there to run.

I really do appreciate all the programming time that goes into these things, it is just ashamed that so much of it is wasted. If I can't get most of these running then I can't imagine that most others are having much luck either.

[paigeoliver]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

[paigeoliver]

Arrrgh, now I can't even get mamewah configured anymore. I used to at least be able to do that.

10/26/2004 4:25:14 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM CMD.EXE /c c:\mame\mame.exe -listxml|xml2info > C:\mamewah\mame.dat
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:21 AM Error 5 Invalid procedure call or argument in CTRLR_ActivateEvent

My Sega Turbo machine has a custom romset that I hacked myself to change some game details. But I can't get any frontend to work.

[paigeoliver]

Great, they also broke advancemenu since I tried it last. It works just fine, but it comes up in a window that is halfway off the edge of the screen.

There went that one, that one used to be idiot proof.

[cdbrown]

try ArcadEpic - worked like a charm first time.  Was up and running in about 3 minutes.

[paigeoliver]

Gamelauncher, my former frontend of last resort.

Current version launches the emulator minimized with an xp command window over it.

[paigeoliver]

try ArcadEpic - worked like a charm first time.  Was up and running in about 3 minutes.

Looked very promising at first, unfortunately that ended with "both -listinfo and -listinfo failed, please check that the mame exe is a valid version of mame".

I get this with EVERY version of mame I have installed.

[Minwah]

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

Heh, the trick here is to read the bit on the downloads page under 'PLEASE READ BEFORE DOWNLOADING!'

[Minwah]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

If you want a list of romnames great (no-one I know wants this), otherwise reading -listinfo or -listxml is *neccessary*.

[Minwah]

10/26/2004 4:25:14 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM CMD.EXE /c c:\mame\mame.exe -listxml|xml2info > C:\mamewah\mame.dat
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:21 AM Error 5 Invalid procedure call or argument in CTRLR_ActivateEvent

This one's my fault, I broke something    You should be able to get a main list tho, just no filtered lists.

[paigeoliver]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

If you want a list of romnames great (no-one I know wants this), otherwise reading -listinfo or -listxml is *neccessary*.

I'd love to simply have the option of having the rom names and have it work than having nothing at all.

Your frontend is the only good one I ever got functioning, although I can't seem to get the current version to work.

I did a fresh mame install, and arcadepic still exits with the same complaint when trying to generate the list.

This was with a fresh install of .69

I refuse to install .88 just to try and use a frontend, as .88 is dog slow and is going to run like crap on my system.

[Minwah]

I think the point here is flexibility...FE's develop as the users want every feature under the sun, the ability to launch every emulator etc.  Naturally to enable this it makes setting up more difficult...however, most FE's can still be set up (basically) within minutes.

As Howard would say, software is a *major* part of any cab, IMO anyone who wants a good looking cab should be prepared to put in some time on the software side.

[paigeoliver]

Yay, 5 and half hours in and I have yet to actually be able to launch a game properly.

This is frankly enough to make me want quit the whole scene.

[Minwah]

I'd love to simply have the option of having the rom names and have it work than having nothing at all.

Set list_generation_method to rom_folder in your \mamewah\ini\mame.ini file, and refresh the list.

Your frontend is the only good one I ever got functioning, although I can't seem to get the current version to work.

Let me know some more details if you want, I'll try to help you out...

I refuse to install .88 just to try and use a frontend, as .88 is dog slow and is going to run like crap on my system.

You don't have to, I still run 0.87, but have also been running many versions previous to that.

[paigeoliver]

I think the point here is flexibility...FE's develop as the users want every feature under the sun, the ability to launch every emulator etc.  Naturally to enable this it makes setting up more difficult...however, most FE's can still be set up (basically) within minutes.

As Howard would say, software is a *major* part of any cab, IMO anyone who wants a good looking cab should be prepared to put in some time on the software side.

We gave our friend Ron a cab for Christmas last year and I spent an entire day setting up the mamewah install.

Two days later it would no longer load mamewah and was getting some sort of error message. Ron doesn't live close by, and to make a long story short, he has still never been able to play his cabinet.

[Minwah]

Yay, 5 and half hours in and I have yet to actually be able to launch a game properly.

This is frankly enough to make me want quit the whole scene.

Lighten up...all you have to do is ask and we'll do all we can to help.  If you'd done that to begin with I'm sure you would already be further along than you are with your 'rant'.

[Minwah]

We gave our friend Ron a cab for Christmas last year and I spent an entire day setting up the mamewah install.

Two days later it would no longer load mamewah and was getting some sort of error message. Ron doesn't live close by, and to make a long story short, he has still never been able to play his cabinet.

That's a real shame, but what's your point?  If it worked for 2 days it must've been fine, maybe Ron messed with something he shouldn't have.  Or maybe not.  Either way, what's he been doing for the last 10 months?  Is clair voyance a requirement for FE dev's nowadays?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I finally got both a list and a game to launch with mamewah.

Minwah, don't take anything as any attack on you, heck as far as I am concerned you have the only frontend with any real options that even has a remotely workable setup.

Now hopefully I will be able to repeat this feat when it comes time to set up the next machine.

Has  your current version fixed the problem of the installing going corrupt? I used to have that problem. Mamewah would work fine for however long, and then magically one day switch over to a consistent run time error.

[paigeoliver]

His system got the run time error. Same thing I had encountered in the past, where a previously working install would just stop working and get a runtime error instead.

[Minwah]

Minwah, don't take anything as any attack on you, heck as far as I am concerned you have the only frontend with any real options that even has a remotely workable setup.

No problem, I realise my FE isn't perfect by a long shot, but I would rather see you ask specifically for help than start a rant

Has  your current version fixed the problem of the installing going corrupt? I used to have that problem. Mamewah would work fine for however long, and then magically one day switch over to a consistent run time error.

Was this the Runtime Error 62?  I never actually had this problem myself, but I am sure it was to do with the CFG files getting corrupt somehow.  Assuming that, then yes it is fixed (the new config file system is much more reliable), haven't had any reports to the contrary anyway.

[paigeoliver]

I don't remember the number anymore, as it has been a while since I used mamewah. Been a while since I used any non-vertical frontend as I don't have a horizontal cabinet and Ron's was the last I did that used Mamewah.

But I sure encountered it pretty consistently back when I was using it.

[Minwah]

I don't remember the number anymore, as it has been a while since I used mamewah. Been a while since I used any non-vertical frontend as I don't have a horizontal cabinet and Ron's was the last I did that used Mamewah.

But I sure encountered it pretty consistently back when I was using it.

OK I'm pretty sure it was the one I mentioned...it seemed to affect people who 'shelled' MW most, but a few other people had the same problem too.

[paigeoliver]

Can I use the current version of mame to generate the gamelist and then safely slip my old version back in place afterwards?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, that did work. I was able to generate the correct names with mame .88 and then install .69 over that!!!!!!!!!!

Tip to all wanting to use older version of mame with newer frontend. Install the current version and set that up, and then copy the old version over it and it will work just fine.

 

[PacManFan]

Paigeoliver,

What's the problem with Kymaera? What kind of problems generating a game list were you having? I tried to make generating a gamelist as painless as possible.

If you've got any suggestions to make it easier, I'm listening.
-PMF

[Buddabing]

Just getting extremely frustrated here, it seems that each and every new frontend version is more and more convoluted and requires more and more magic mojo to actually get them to work.

What happened to the old days when you put the front end in the emulator directory and ran it and it worked.

I just spend 4 hours installing Kymeara including a massive windows update required to run it. Of course I can't use it as (as is common with almost all frontends these days) the gamelist generation software is broken and exits with a "parameter must be positive" message.

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

I feel your pain.

One of my software projects is a simple cross-platform front end that just works, and doesn't require a lot of cpu, disk space, or RAM. It'll run on a DOS bootable floppy, Linux, or a command line.

I'm glad you were able to get something to work.

[darktemp]

The frontends are free how can you possibly complain?  Suggestions and questions to solve problems are one thing but moaning about a program that is given away and no doubt took about 1000 times longer to code then it has taken you to setup is ridiculous.

[screaming]

The frontends are free how can you possibly complain?  Suggestions and questions to solve problems are one thing but moaning about a program that is given away and no doubt took about 1000 times longer to code then it has taken you to setup is ridiculous.

  So true.

  "But I want a golden goose NOW, daddy!"

  The problem that FE developers have to deal with though, is that they delevop a middle-ware product, and most of the time they're implementing features for other people (instead for themselves).   They have no control over how MAME, CPViewer, Johnny5, VirtuaNES, gens, zsnes, work, they only get to deal with it in a closed source way.  Setting up all those programs and getting them to run from the command line are certainly outside the scope of any frontend, especially if it's of the multiple-emulator variety.  

  That accounts for at least 85% of the problems most people have setting up a frontend from scratch.

-Steve

[SirPeale]

How can we complain?  How's this: working on a visually impressive project, with lots of features, that is very hard to use.  Sure, it's "free" but as we all know that term is subjective.  No money changes hands, but the time involved is certainly worth something.

Paige said that AdvanceMenu is easy to set up.  Not for me!  I haven't been able to get it to run properly yet.  On different types of hardware, on both arcade and PC monitors.

[screaming]

How can we complain?  How's this: working on a visually impressive project, with lots of features, that is very hard to use.  Sure, it's "free" but as we all know that term is subjective.  No money changes hands, but the time involved is certainly worth something.

  Okay, then make your own  The time involved in THAT is certainly more costly than the time involved in setting one up.

  Sure, it's frustrating.  I was there once, setting up all the FEs for the first time and seeing how buggy they all are.  It was very time consuming and rediculously complex. If I ever thought that creating my own would take less time though I would certainly have chosen that road.  It's the lesser of two evils, if you have to look at it that way.

-Steve

[Mr. Dude]

Whoa, it seems someone was having a high flow day.
Seriously though, if you're having trouble why not just use an older version of one of the FEs?  I'm using a version of mamewah that's like 4 versions old on my cabinet.  I love it, it functions great and I have no reason to update.  Just because there is a newer version it doesn't mean that it's always the best one for you... just look at MAME as an example.  

[whammoed]

I run advmenu on linux and thought it was pretty easy to set up.  Set up a custom list, got rid of the sounds (I thought they were a little annoying) and changed the color scheme in no time.  All I wanted was a simple looking front end with a list of games on the left and a screen shot on the right.  Took no time at all.

[btoddkelley]

     Frontend authors are faced with the problem that firms face everyday....when you make the product more flexible it becomes more complicated. I for one am willing to live with more complex setup to have more features. (I use mamewah)
     I have found with mamewah that I can copy my mamewah directory from my "master cab" along with my emulators folder and when I start mamewah it works just like it did on the master. (save installing plus ins in Epsxe and project 64). If you are building multiple cabs you really only have to set it up once.
     One thing that helped me learn mamewah was mamewah set. I could set up an emu and go look at the config file and then "work backwards" to understand what mamewah wanted. I have not upgraded to 1.5 yet. I am hoping for another mamewah setup to appear before this weekend! A frontends frontend is the ideal solution for learning!
          One interesting note about copying mamewah over to another cab....for some reason SOME (not all)  the pic's will not always show up until you have started mamewah set up. Even a version of mamewah set up that will not work with the version of mamewah will somehow fix the problem! Once you have started mamewah setup (and it warns you to get a more recent version) if you go back and start mamewah the pics now show up.
     Another tool that I think would make mamewah even better is a program to allow you to change the emulator order. I have all my emu's from earliest to latest and when adding an old system,
 changing the order can be time consuming.

Todd

[mahuti]

I'm in the process of building something with the goal of correcting this exact situation. I am going to execute an alpha testing plan sometime in the next few weeks. I'll update you when I do... I'll be looking for specific computer configurations for testing.

Project goals
1. Smart
2. Built in setup functionality
3. Works in any direction (for vert monitors)
4. Built in CP viewer / configurator
5. Ability to combine roms from different emulators in lists.
6. Extremely flexible
7. Completely configurable via joystick / arcade controls OR with a keyboard OR via ini / xml files.
8. **secretsssss**
9. Movie play for screensaver or game browsing.

The alpha will not contain most of these features, unfortunately. I'll be testing for 98, 2000, Xp compliance, speed first.  Right now I have a working alpha that does the basics, displays roms for mame and pictures. I also  have a working beta for the control panel configurator, viewer. A lot of the components of my FE have been built and work rather simply, real world testing may beat the crap out of it, though, so don't get your hopes up. At the very minimum I will release a version of this that may or may not have tons of bells and whistles, but my highest priority is "drop and go" setup. If the main components work fluidly, (menu scrolling, file browsing) on a variety of platforms, I will continue detailed development. While I would like this FE to be available to all, my primary targets will be for the masses, and not for niche systems. I am testing on old and new machines, but I've yet to try it on a PC with arcade monitor... there's no reason it wouldn't work, but I can't imagine what kind of issues I will see with refresh rates khz problems.

The biggest bonuses that my FE will provide (providing I can actually release it) is its ability to use plug-ins and mods, and my no setup / no upgrade policy that I  am focusing on for its development.

Anyway, sorry for the vaporware post, but I'm having a hard time keeping my excitement in. I will be posting more over the next few weeks.

[mahuti]

Oh, and mine reads the list of files in the roms folder

[Howard_Casto]

sorry paige, but you must be "this smart" to ride.  


I've found that, in general at least, people who complain about the setups of fes do one or all of the following:

1.) Do NOT read the extensive docs that come with the fe.  (We didn't write them for our health you know.)

2.) Do NOT spend the appropriate time learning to use them.  Unless you want a fe that doesn't do anything, there are a lot of options to set and unfortunately emulators are not constructed in such a way that we can magically guess all the appropriate settings for you.  We are programmers, not psychic.  

3.) Are NOT computer literate enough to be in this hobby.  People seem to think that it's our duty as fe developers to make things "automagic" for them.  If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32.  I'm sorry, but that's the sad facts.  You'd think with a hobby that involves interfacing arcade cabinets with computers people would naturally understand that an intimate knowledge of both fields are required.

4.) They do NOT have patience enough to set them up properly, troubleshoot, and work with developers to get it up and running.  It SHOULD take you several hours if not several weeks to get a fe setup just right, with the proper skin, exactly how you want it.  I like to use this analogy..... normal windows programs are like kitchen appliances, you plug them in and they work. This is because the average windows program doesn't do all that much, it does one simple task and that's it.  All the data it needs is self contained.  Now a front-end is like a router and a router bit.  They are tools towards an end product.  All the data they need is external and knowing how to use the device is FAR more important than how well it works.  Remember, all the fe can do (I am over-simplifing) is display a list with images and launch games, two very simple functions.  But what to display is entirely up to you.  You have to tell it or it has to aquire the information form where you specify.  Thus if you can't get a fe to work, it's probably your fault.  Let's face it, there isn't much that can go wrong other than user error.  


Conclusion.... sounds like one of dem dare 1d-10-t errors to me.  

[PacManFan]

what language (c++, vb,etc) are you planning on programming this in? Kymaera is C++, open source, and does everything you just described.

-PMF

[mahuti]

I have a crappy old win 98 pc that is badly maintained, plus I have a short fuse, very high hourly rate, no patience for reading docs, don't want to learn anything new. Basically, I'm one of Howards "thissmarts..." though I don't actually complain (well maybe a tiny bit, but not on purpose.)

I tried Kymaera, really liked it right off the bat. Then I set it up for hours, tried some basic stuff, it worked. After I kept going a while, it gave me errors, I gave up and went back to mamewah (which also gives me errors, just not as bad). Honestly, I know it's not Kymaera's "fault." If configured correctly, it will work as advertised... I just don't care to configure it correctly. Kymaera does a lot, but what I'm working on is drastically different in some very fundamental ways. The architecture that I'm using makes it very difficult to do set up some of the very simple tasks elegantly, but is very flexible with some of the more complex items, so the initial setup has been a real challenge, and I'm still looking for some increase in efficiencies of scale, speed, size and flexibility.

It's not about anybody else, or their software. I just like solving problems, and there are plenty to solve in this arena. I'm coming at it from a different direction, with a different perspective and set of skills... I'd tell you what language I'm using but
1. You'd laugh
and
2. I'm not ready to share much. When I get a little closer I'll either announce that I've failed, or I'll give some details.

Anyway, I've long wanted to help out, but because of my skillset, I'm not really of any use to any of the developers on this board, and for the most part, they won't be of use to me in my pursuits. So, since technically what I'm talking about is, for now, vaporware, I'm going to shut up about it, and get back to work.

[Gunstar Hero]

MAMEclassic is ugly, but easy. =)

I use it for testing different ROM setups.

And after a couple beers, who cares?  

[jcrouse]

I'm a little late chiming in here but it's not just emulator FE's. It all software. Quite simply, more functionality = more complexity. Have you ever trie to get rid of the automatic formatting that Microsoft Word uses (outline and numbering, for instance). It's just the nature of the beast. For options and functionality = more complexity. And yes, it is VERY frustrating.

Just my 2 cents,
John

[SpamMe]

1.) ...extensive docs
2.) ...there are a lot of options to set.
3.) ...If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32
4.) ...It should take you several hours if not several weeks to get a fe setup just right

Yes, I think these are the exact kind of things that are wrong with most of the current emulators, and exactly what Paige was complaining about.

[SirPoonga]

Well, most of the older FEs were mame only.  That makes a huge dffference too.  Today's are multiemu and have to deal with all the emus.  Therefore the developer is going to try and make the FE as general as possible which means more setup on the user end.

[paigeoliver]

1.) ...extensive docs
2.) ...there are a lot of options to set.
3.) ...If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32
4.) ...It should take you several hours if not several weeks to get a fe setup just right

Yes, I think these are the exact kind of things that are wrong with most of the current emulators, and exactly what Paige was complaining about.

Those are EXACTLY what is wrong with the general frontend software.


1. Extensive docs. This is great, unless the basic information is buried in a 60 page document that is largely unneeded information. My router came with a 100 page manual. All I needed to know out of that manual was how to log into it. Advancemenu has massive extensive docs too, but it basically works out of the box, except it (stupidly, stupidly, stupidly) defaults to running windowed, and I can't seem to find anything in the docs about making it run fullscreen

2. Lots of options are great! But logically all of them should have defaults, and those defaults should make SENSE. See the bit above about advancemenu defaulting to running in a window.

3. I can set up ini files and command line mame with ease. Although once again you were stating something that is a problem.

4. Once again, a huge problem. Sure you can spend hours or weeks tweaking a frontend, but I see no reason on earth that BASIC initial setup should take hours.

It is obviously possible. Mame32 does it. If mame32 can do it, then it can obviously be done as a full screen application that looks more like the frontends we all know and love.

Although the number 1 problem I see with frontends today, and the problems I keep encountering again and again is this.

The frontend wants the mame exe to spit out some sort of game list information and it wants to read this information and use it against the contents of the directory to generate the gamelist.

This is broken. This is so broken. This is so broken it isn't even funny. This is the single step where all the setup problems are occurring.

How difficult would it be to have a single textfile NOT GENERATED BY MAME, but that comes with the frontend, that does the rom name to game name translation, thus skipping the entire step that causes most of the problems in the first place. Then the frontend could read the directory and all these stupid problems would vanish.

The textfile would be small, all it needs is romname, gamename, not the 16 MB files that mame spits out.

This would fix almost everything that is wrong with frontends today and cut down on the support immensely.

[paigeoliver]

Another great looking front end that I would love to try is Ultrastyle.

I have read all the docs, I have went to the Ultrastyle messageboard as well.

Every system I try it on, every mame version I try it with chokes on the game list generation with a "parameter must be postive error".

I tried it with old mame, I tried it with the current version. I tried it with version .80 because someone at the ultrastyle messageboard mentioned that version DIDN'T choke like that. I tried it on my laptop, I tried it on my desktop. Nope, same error, same thing everytime. From reading the ultrastyle message board it seems the developer doesn't really know what it is.

I can go over this same stuff with almost every frontend on the market today, and it is the one place they are most likely to choke.

[DanteBK]

I just want to say that I love MAME32. I also love Visual Pinball Launcher 'cause I can make stuff bold or not bold just by clicking a button. My friends didn't know this hobby existed and could give a crap about the software I'm using as long as we get to play a little Smash TV, a little Double Dragon, a little pinball. It's all good, my babies, everybody relax. Video games are fun!

[Minwah]

Ok, that did work. I was able to generate the correct names with mame .88 and then install .69 over that!!!!!!!!!!

Tip to all wanting to use older version of mame with newer frontend. Install the current version and set that up, and then copy the old version over it and it will work just fine.

 

You can do use old MAME versions in MW by setting the list_generation_method to rom_folder_vs_listinfo.

[Minwah]

1. Extensive docs. This is great, unless the basic information is buried in a 60 page document that is largely unneeded information. My router came with a 100 page manual. All I needed to know out of that manual was how to log into it. Advancemenu has massive extensive docs too, but it basically works out of the box, except it (stupidly, stupidly, stupidly) defaults to running windowed, and I can't seem to find anything in the docs about making it run fullscreen

I'm not the world's biggest doc reader, so I can sympathise.  However, did you read MW's readme1st.txt?  It is 37 lines long and tells you all you need to know, basically.

2. Lots of options are great! But logically all of them should have defaults, and those defaults should make SENSE. See the bit above about advancemenu defaulting to running in a window.

All MW's defaults are set for current MAME - that is the most logical thing IMO.

3. I can set up ini files and command line mame with ease. Although once again you were stating something that is a problem.

Do you see how similar MW's ini files are to MAME's?  That is why I did it that way, so people familiar with setting up mame.ini etc. would be comfortable with it.

4. Once again, a huge problem. Sure you can spend hours or weeks tweaking a frontend, but I see no reason on earth that BASIC initial setup should take hours.

Again, a basic MAME setup in MW takes 2 minutes.  Max.

It is obviously possible. Mame32 does it. If mame32 can do it, then it can obviously be done as a full screen application that looks more like the frontends we all know and love.

MAME32 has a big advantage - it is MAME only, and of course, it IS MAME.  Therefore it knows where everything is (the rom, snap etc. folders come premade with the distribution), and generally has a lot easier time of things than multi-emulator FE's do.

Although the number 1 problem I see with frontends today, and the problems I keep encountering again and again is this.

The frontend wants the mame exe to spit out some sort of game list information and it wants to read this information and use it against the contents of the directory to generate the gamelist.

This is broken. This is so broken. This is so broken it isn't even funny. This is the single step where all the setup problems are occurring.

How difficult would it be to have a single textfile NOT GENERATED BY MAME, but that comes with the frontend, that does the rom name to game name translation, thus skipping the entire step that causes most of the problems in the first place. Then the frontend could read the directory and all these stupid problems would vanish.

The textfile would be small, all it needs is romname, gamename, not the 16 MB files that mame spits out.

This would fix almost everything that is wrong with frontends today and cut down on the support immensely.

I don't see where you're coming from with this one.  In fact, what you say here is absolute rubbish.

Ever noticed that romnames/descriptions change with new releases of MAME?  Ever notice that when new MAME versions come out new games are added?!  So to keep up to date a new release of every FE would be required every time a new version of MAME is released (including intermediate u releases).  Plus a back-catalog would need to be kept for every FE, for every release of MAME that there has ever been (for those running old MAME versions).  Frankly, this is preposterous.

Also, if only romname and description were included in the 'supplied text file', simple things like filtering clones would not be possible.  Which would blow  

[paigeoliver]

Minwah, most of this is not aimed at your front end anyway.

But back to the last one. That IS the setup spot where most frontends (including mamewah) tend to choke,

A small textfile with all the needed information could easily be updated each mame version, and the romnames themselves almost never, ever, ever change, so it should be backwards compatible. Even if it wasn't 100 percent, it would still be a whole lot more backwards compatible than anything we hav now. As it is I can't get any of the older versions of mame to actual work with any of the "mame spits out a file" list generation methods (mamewah, or any other emulator).

The compatibility on the popular "mame spits out a file" technique is SUPPOSED to be 100 percent, and it is in theory, but in reality it only seems to be 100 percent when using the same mame version, operating system, and file system that the developer used.

Or maybe it is just me. Maybe I am the only one who runs into this same exact problem over and over and over again, no matter which mame version I use, no matter which operating system, which frontend, or which computer I am using. I guess it is just me.

Almost all front end issues are this single one. I can read through this forum, and it all keeps coming back to people not being able to generate the gamelist. Note, yours still seems to be the best at this mamewah, it and gamelauncher are the only ones I have EVER been able to get past this step on (of course in gamelauncher you have to use a 3rd party app).

[JoyMonkey]

I haven't tried UltraStyle in a while, but the version that I did try out a few months back was great. I didn't run into the problem you mentioned, or any other problems for that matter. It worked perfectly for me 'straight out of the box' without any configuration changes on my part.
From what I'm reading, it seems the more recent releases have developed problems. Shame  

[screaming]

  Like I said, out of all the front ends that don't have problems and work "out of the box", can you see a common thread there?  How about:   They all only work with MAME.

  Yes, people, it's not easy making any kind of software to begin with beyond your simple "hello world" textbook example.  Not only that, but something as complicated as a multiple emulator frontend that relies on other programs to do it's dirty work (list generation, for example).

  Okay, Paige, distributing another DAT file for a front end is probably not the right answer.  Not only does it create an extra maintenance task for our overworked FE Devs, but it's just one extra step that replicates information that's already freely available.

  I think what the main problem is, is that most of the time when us users use a front-end, we expect it to be retail-quality software.  Unfortunately this is not the case, and in fact, most of the time we're dealing with BETA or sometimes ALPHA quality software that's just released ("advertised") as full-fledged retail-quality software.  I think what really needs to happen is the FE devs need to start being clearer on what a release is.

  MAMEWAH 1.50, as good as it is, has already gone through 3 or 4 fixes for various (serious!) problems in the past month.  That's BETA, man.  

  In order to get out of non-beta and have a "real" release (with a release party! w00t!) you need to QA it first, test everything, even if you don't think you've touched it, fix anything that you broke, then release it to the public and have them do the same thing.  Rinse, repeat.

  Kymaera has consistently been in this category, but it's a relatively new endevour.

  Dragon King.. is probably in "full release" mode, but part of that is just that Howard refuses to fix his bugs Otherwise DK definitely shows it's wisdom, if not it's age.

  Really we need to get better QA going on for the software, even if that means the devs released "beta" versions for us to test before they release "real" versions.  Or better yet, open source it like Kymaera and let other people do the work for you.  

-Steve

[ErikRuud]

I have very specific FE needs.  I like to keep the navigation simple and I want to be able to remap the keys as I see fit.  I also want to be able to mix emus within a list.

I like Kymaera.

Once it is setup it works great. It is the only FE that allows me to map the keys the way I like. ie multiple keys can be mapped to the same funtion.

Even with the bugs in the gamelsit grid (These are fixed now),  I was able to configure it to run three different emulators and a juke box within an hour.  I even have category lists setup the have the emulators mixed within one list.  The default values for some settings probably won't work for many people.

I used to use Gamelauncher, I loved it for it's simplicity.  It worked well out of the box.  I still took weeks to set it up so that it fulfilled my requirements,  I wanted to do things that it was not setup to handle, so I had to create .bat files for all the roms that I wanted to run!

I tried out Mamewah, it worked wel, but did not provide all the features that I wanted.  It may do them now, I  haven't checked recently.

Dragon King worked out of the box, but seemed to be slow, and did not support the keymapping that I wanted.

3DArcade is very slick looking, but I couldn't seem to configure it for simple navigation. I like to keep the menus simple without subcategories.

[Minwah]

But back to the last one. That IS the setup spot where most frontends (including mamewah) tend to choke,

I'm not denying neccessarily this is an area that could use some work, but I think your idea would actually add more work to be honest.

A small textfile with all the needed information could easily be updated each mame version, and the romnames themselves almost never, ever, ever change, so it should be backwards compatible. Even if it wasn't 100 percent, it would still be a whole lot more backwards compatible than anything we hav now. As it is I can't get any of the older versions of mame to actual work with any of the "mame spits out a file" list generation methods (mamewah, or any other emulator).

I still don't see it.  IMO one thing that MAME has ahead of any other emulator is the very ability to output loads of info about each game (some info more useful than others admittedly).  I'm not saying I like MAME's output format (frankly it is a pain to parse), but the info is there and it is our (FE dev's) job to get that info.  I don't see how a new format of some kind would be any more compatible than MAME's -listinfo and -listxml - these do the job fine for the most part IMHO.  Also, -listinfo's output is the same as ClrMAME's dat files - which basically is the standard format for us to use.

For your old MAME version in MW, try list_generation_method rom_folder_vs_listinfo...

The compatibility on the popular "mame spits out a file" technique is SUPPOSED to be 100 percent, and it is in theory, but in reality it only seems to be 100 percent when using the same mame version, operating system, and file system that the developer used.

I don't really know why this is causing such a problem...I know there was a period when -listinfo was removed which caused some problems, but aside from this MAME version, OS and file systems are irrelevant really.

Or maybe it is just me. Maybe I am the only one who runs into this same exact problem over and over and over again, no matter which mame version I use, no matter which operating system, which frontend, or which computer I am using. I guess it is just me.

I don't know, I certainly here a LOT of problems from MW users, but list generation is not a common one (bar people forgetting to change the list gen. method for console emulators etc.).  Now -listxml has settled in, I don't see why you should get any problems with any of the FE's really (not that I use any others in all honesty).

Almost all front end issues are this single one. I can read through this forum, and it all keeps coming back to people not being able to generate the gamelist. Note, yours still seems to be the best at this mamewah, it and gamelauncher are the only ones I have EVER been able to get past this step on (of course in gamelauncher you have to use a 3rd party app).

Well I'm pretty out of touch with the other FE's, but I can't see the list generation stuff changing considerably.

[paigeoliver]

Like I said Minwah, maybe it is just me. But I consistently have this same problem with basically every frontend, no matter what mame version I use, no matter what operating system I use.

[)p(]

Like I said Minwah, maybe it is just me. But I consistently have this same problem with basically every frontend, no matter what mame version I use, no matter what operating system I use.

i think it works ok for most users...else we would get lots more reports of this feature not working...

actualy we do regularly get those...but the solution is normally to let the user download the regular mame version from mame.net and use that to parse the gamelists. after that you can use any exotic mame variant to actually launch the games. (I also include a set of mame gamelists with my fe.)

parsing -listinfo -listxml is imho essential for mame as it gives you the proper parent relationships. In my fe its even more essential because of the info form it can be used to match models to games. Also personally i could not live without the information they provide for filtering gamelists.

most fe's do have some kind of quick setup guide...but i am surprised how many times i get questions by email and find out the users did not take the few minutes time to read them...

I think times are changing...Unlike some years ago...most of us...uhm...let me not speak for others ...I only had my personal use in mind Now fe's are designed from the ground up with the user in mind. Like ultrastyle and kymaera and both did a great job at it imho!

And it can only get better

peter

[Minwah]

actualy we do regularly get those...but the solution is normally to let the user download the regular mame version from mame.net and use that to parse the gamelists. after that you can use any exotic mame variant to actually launch the games. (I also include a set of mame gamelists with my fe.)

Ah yes, this is true, I know a few people have problems generating the list with MAME32 etc....but in Paige's case I seriously doubt that is the case (at least I hope not! )

[SirPeale]

One of the bigger problems with the newer list generation comes from not using the correct version of xml2info.exe.  A lot of people were complaining that it wasn't working for them, and it turns out they were using the Windows version with DOS, and vice versa.

[HaRuMaN]

<snip>
I'd tell you what language I'm using but
1. You'd laugh
and
2. I'm not ready to share much. When I get a little closer I'll either announce that I've failed, or I'll give some details.
</snip>

Maybe he's writing it in Q-BASIC??  

[screaming]

<snip>
I'd tell you what language I'm using but
1. You'd laugh
and
2. I'm not ready to share much. When I get a little closer I'll either announce that I've failed, or I'll give some details.
</snip>

Maybe he's writing it in Q-BASIC??  

  Hey, respect the Q-BASIC, man!  I once wrote an entire MUD (based on TeleArena) in BASIC.

-Steve

[papaschtroumpf]

At least it's not Java!  

[Howard_Casto]

1.) ...extensive docs
2.) ...there are a lot of options to set.
3.) ...If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32
4.) ...It should take you several hours if not several weeks to get a fe setup just right

Yes, I think these are the exact kind of things that are wrong with most of the current emulators, and exactly what Paige was complaining about.

Those are EXACTLY what is wrong with the general frontend software.

Ok that's great.  You fixt it!  What's that, you aren't willing to spending several months to several YEARS of your free time to devleop free software to the cummunity that actually works better and is easier to setup than all of these fe's you are complaining about?  Well then, there's an old expression.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!!!

If you are having trouble with all, not some of the fes out there, then I'm sorry but it's gotta be user error.  I mean it's only logical.

I mean are you guys not listening.  I've already explained why fes that actually do anything must be complicated to setup... the simplier the setup, the less options you get.  If you want a simple fe stick to mame32 or make your own.  Otherwise, suck it up, pick a fe you like, and stick with it until you get it just right.  You'll only have to do it once so what's the big deal?

And don't get me started on people that are too lazy to read.  I can attest to the fact that all of the popular fes have a "quick setup" guide that's one page or less.  So your point on that matter is unjustified.  If you want to do anything advanced your gonna have to read about it... it's as simple as that.  


And I'm sorry, but yes, you are gonna have to know about computers.  This isn't even the fe developer's fault.  Emulators are not user friendly and thus you have to jump through hoops with many of them to get things up and running.  It is not the fe developers responsibility to make sure you set these guys up properly.... at this point we all pretty much "automagically" setup mame.  That's as good as it's gonna get as mame is the only emu that seems to care if it's impossible to run in a mame cab or not.  If you want a fe that helps you set settings then check out emuloader.  You'll notice (respectfully) that it makes mame32 look pretty is so jank looking.  That is because the author spends all of his spare time adding support for emulators and their options.  You can't have it both ways as we aren't made out of time.  ....  So look bad or tricky to setup, you choose.  

[jcrouse]

Since you don't like reading long Doc's you probably won't like Howard's long post so (if I may, Howard) let me summarize. A couple thousand people are having success and enjoying the product(s) and a few (very small percentage) aren't. Now, I'm not a rocket scientist so I'll leave it to you to figure out where the problem lies.

John

[SpamMe]

Whoops, had javascript off so preview = reply

Here's what I had added to the above post never got added:

I, of course, appreciate and respect the work of all the FE developers, and I did take the time to get mamewah setup 'just right,' and I feel it was worthwhile. However, there absolutely is a niche that could be filled by an easier to setup, (and yes, fewer-optioned) and well-designed front-end designed for cabinet use (as opposed to desktop use).

[zaphod]

4. Once again, a huge problem. Sure you can spend hours or weeks tweaking a frontend, but I see no reason on earth that BASIC initial setup should take hours.

Again, a basic MAME setup in MW takes 2 minutes.  Max.

Took me ten minutes last night to get running for the first time, including the installation of the files.  I must be slow.  Did have to resort to reading the page of docs, though, but they walked me right through the process.

[Minwah]

Took me ten minutes last night to get running for the first time, including the installation of the files.  I must be slow.  Did have to resort to reading the page of docs, though, but they walked me right through the process.

That's about right...I meant 2 mins just editing the ini file(s), all that really needs changing from default for a basic setup is rom_folder and artwork_1_image_path.

Installing the system files and main setup would add a good 5 or more mins on.

[Buddabing]

Took me ten minutes last night to get running for the first time, including the installation of the files.  I must be slow.  Did have to resort to reading the page of docs, though, but they walked me right through the process.

I think Paige's point was that the MW installer should either go out and look for MAME installations a la ArcadePic or should prompt the user to navigate to one or download one from mame.net. Similarly, the installer should detect the presence of the msocx.whatever files and if they are not there it should warn the user and give him the option of launching a browser with the appropriate URL. The front end, when building game lists, should first check the version to see whether it outputs .ini or .xml. Unfortunately Daphne doesn't have the -version or -listxml options. Don't know about other emulators. But the user should be able to have MAME work out of the box.

[zaphod]

I think Paige's point was that the MW installer should either go out and look for MAME installations a la ArcadePic or should prompt the user to navigate to one or download one from mame.net. Similarly, the installer should detect the presence of the msocx.whatever files and if they are not there it should warn the user and give him the option of launching a browser with the appropriate URL.

My cab is not online so this would not have worked for me.  I'd rather have it where it is on MW's download page so I can download the system files at the same time as the FE.  Then I have everything on CD that I need when I go to the cab.

The front end, when building game lists, should first check the version to see whether it outputs .ini or .xml.

I agree 100% with this.

I also installed Ultrastyle last night (I'm trying a number of the FE's out there to see which I want to switch to) and it located my Mame installation on its own, which was very nice.  But MW's setup was not difficult to me at all, and I am not a big fan of having to read docs either.

[screaming]

  Okay, Howard, I agree with almost everything you said.  However, this is debatable:

I mean are you guys not listening.  I've already explained why fes that actually do anything must be complicated to setup... the simplier the setup, the less options you get.

  There are many ways you can program a piece of software to make it more user-friendly without taking out the advanced options.  How about the installation wizard that comes with almost any piece of commercial Windows software?  A very large percentage have a 'typical' setting that makes most decisions for you, and also have an 'advanced' option that lets you manually select the options you want.  I don't see why the same methodoligies can't apply here.

  Look, you can have a powerful piece of software with the hackjob it-works-for-me face, or you can have a powerful piece of software that has the look-at-me-im-so-cute-and-cuddly face.  The choice is up to the developer and how much time they want to spend making it easier for the people that want it easy and powerful for the people that want it powerful.

  There's no reason you can't have both.

-Steve

[screaming]

Took me ten minutes last night to get running for the first time, including the installation of the files.  I must be slow.  Did have to resort to reading the page of docs, though, but they walked me right through the process.

I think Paige's point was that the MW installer should either go out and look for MAME installations a la ArcadePic or should prompt the user to navigate to one or download one from mame.net. Similarly, the installer should detect the presence of the msocx.whatever files and if they are not there it should warn the user and give him the option of launching a browser with the appropriate URL. The front end, when building game lists, should first check the version to see whether it outputs .ini or .xml. Unfortunately Daphne doesn't have the -version or -listxml options. Don't know about other emulators. But the user should be able to have MAME work out of the box.

  FE's that want to support more than just MAME shouldn't be MAME-centric (only).  You're setting yourself up for a headache since most, if not all, other emulators don't have a -listfull/listxml.  

  Plain and simple.

  Provide options for different emulators (like ClrMamePro does) in a setup wizard, but allow the import of DAT files. Nice, easy, and simple.  There's no reason the Zinc rom-by-number method can't be supported in MAMEWAH. There's no reason MAMEWAH can't ship with built-in configurations for Project64, ZSNES, VirtuaNES.

  That is, other than the developer's time

-Steve

[paigeoliver]

Speaking of Ultrastyle.

I now have a working install of Ultrastyle.

I attempted the install on two computers, both Windows XP with no service packs installed (but with the security updates, and the .net framework).

On both computers I used a brand new install of the current version of mame. Mamepp.exe, not one of the oddball brands of mame. I downloaded this mame directly from mame.net and unzipped to a fresh directory.

On both installations I did exactly the same thing setting them up. I did the exact same steps in the exact same order.

On computer #1 it crashes  out when attempting to generate the gamelist with a "parameter must be positive" error. Note it does this EVERY TIME, as I tried it more than once. Even tried more fresh installs.

On computer number two it generated the gamelist perfectly and ran without a problem.

OBVIOUSLY this is USER ERROR. I must not be smart enough to use this software if it won't work on my computer. It must be an ID10T error, because it couldn't possibly be a problem with the front-end software. I must not know how to read. I must not know how to visit the Ultrastyle messageboard and read the messages about this error that OTHER IDIOTS LIKE MYSELF are having. I must not be able to implement the solution THAT DOES NOT EXIST. Frankly I am surprised that I was even able to figure out how to open a zip file, as I am simply that stupid.

A bit more testing has shown that the current version of mamewah will consistently generate the gamelist accross various platforms provided you use a more recent version of mame.

[jcrouse]

FYI: mamepp.exe is the Pentium Pro optimized version!

John

[danny_galaga]

3.) Are NOT computer literate enough to be in this hobby.  People seem to think that it's our duty as fe developers to make things "automagic" for them.  If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32.  I'm sorry, but that's the sad facts.  You'd think with a hobby that involves interfacing arcade cabinets with computers people would naturally understand that an intimate knowledge of both fields are required.

im one of those computer illiterates. so i use mame32. and i appreciate all thats been done with the whole scene. after all, it IS for free!! but i do take a little offence to the idea that i shouldnt be in this hobby because of my short-comings on the computer side of things. the other half of the situation is the cabinet. i wouldnt suggest to anyone that they shouldnt be in this hobby if they cant build a cab. i think ive put together a great cab, and i know JUST enough about computers to whack one together. and im confident enough with electronics and electrics to later on build a jamma cab. software i suck on. thank god for mame32!!
  i came to this thread because i was looking for a prettier FE for mame32, but it looks like i'll have to be happy with the status quo.
  my 5 cents worth (they canned 1 & 2's in oz years ago)

[Katana Man]

pageoliver does have a point.  Most FE's take a lot of reading to get them to work. Either reading through the docs or getting help from the forums.  I've tried many FE's over the past few years and can testify to this generalization.

Personally, I'm very grateful for the free FE's that developers are making for us. Thank you developers. I appreciate it.  And I plan on spending this winter working on my arcade machine to try to get a FE working.

On the same token, I would be glad to pay $50 for a FE that is well thought out, easy to configure, works without problems.

 

[Rocky]

First, I want to say thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. It is the most entertaining reading I've had this week  

My experience is that the older version of MAME you use and the older flavor of Windows, the more problems you have. I use Win98se with Mame .71  So, all the FE's give me errors.

I have gotten Mamewah .97 to work very well.  Because of this, I'm watching the revisions to 1.50 -1.52 while using .97

I don't want to upgrade until all of you beta testers have found all the bugs  


Oh, and I wrote a front end to Mamewah in Quickbasic  
(It lets me choose the CP I'm using and loads the appropriate version of Mamewah)
I was programming in the 70's and I hate change!


Rocky

[Howard_Casto]

 Okay, Howard, I agree with almost everything you said.  However, this is debatable:

I mean are you guys not listening.  I've already explained why fes that actually do anything must be complicated to setup... the simplier the setup, the less options you get.

  There are many ways you can program a piece of software to make it more user-friendly without taking out the advanced options.  How about the installation wizard that comes with almost any piece of commercial Windows software?  A very large percentage have a 'typical' setting that makes most decisions for you, and also have an 'advanced' option that lets you manually select the options you want.  I don't see why the same methodoligies can't apply here.

  Look, you can have a powerful piece of software with the hackjob it-works-for-me face, or you can have a powerful piece of software that has the look-at-me-im-so-cute-and-cuddly face.  The choice is up to the developer and how much time they want to spend making it easier for the people that want it easy and powerful for the people that want it powerful.

  There's no reason you can't have both.

-Steve

Well I can't speak for the others... but I do have a first time setup wizard.  If you just want to run mame, and you have one of the reccomended video cards, it'll hold your hand through the setup process the first time. (If you don't have the correct video card you have to manually tweak a single setting in the ini file.)  Unfortunately that isn't what this thread is about... if you'll listen to many of the users, they want every single aspect of the setup process, even advanced features and non mame emu setups to be "automagic" this isn't gonna happen, as I've stated the way other emus are designed it's just impossible to do so.

[GGKoul]

My 2 cents:  

I've installed Mame32 and MameWah by following the instructions and had no issues.  I would say Mame32 is by far the easiest to setup.

[Minwah]

A bit more testing has shown that the current version of mamewah will consistently generate the gamelist accross various platforms provided you use a more recent version of mame.

I mentioned it before but if you want to use an old (pre -listxml) version of MAME just change the list_generation_method to 'rom_foldervs_listinfo'.

Back to the topic...

I was thinking of making a small (very simple) app to setup the basics of the new ini-based config MAMEWAH.  BUT I figured David Butler would probably be working on a new MW Setup (which would probably do a better job).  Mr Butler seems to have gone awol so I am not sure if he will be able to do this or not.  I think after MW's next small release I will not be making any more for a while - so I might make a small setup app then (if I get bored ).

[javeryh]

This thread is great.  All the FE developers rule because mame running on an arcade cab wouldn't be as "authentic" without them.  I just learned how to run mame using the command line in the DOS window and I think I'm a freaking genius.  Computers are not my area of expertise but I'm willing to learn...  ever so slowly...  

I am also having problems configuring my FE - Game Launcher (I wanted to keep everything as simple as possible and some of the other FEs are a little intimidating to me but I will try them eventually).  Everything seems to work but I can't select any games once gamelauncher is running.  I am destined to play 1942 (the first game on my list) forever  .  Every time I press the down arrow to select a game it returns to the top of my list... since a lot of you reading this thread are way smarter than I am - any thoughts?  

[durak]

I appreciate the work done by the fe developers, but I do agree they are a pain to set up. I've been using computers since dos days, so that ain't the problem either.
I set up mamewah when I finished my cab few months(?) ago, don't know if there's been new releases since. But at least with my version it was VERY confusing to get the catver.ini to work correctly. The docs had dated/wrong information, I had to trial & error to get it to work.
I'm happy with it now though it does act a little funky from time to time.

question to minwah:
where is the custom list game information stored? I mean if I create a mame-x.ini, name it lets say favourites and then just add games there from other lists. Where is the information of which games I have added stored?

[slycrel]

  Wow Howard, you sure know how to get a conversation going.  =)

  Being a developer myself, I know there are both sides of the coin here.  Paige brings up some very valid points.  Initial "default" configuration should be very painless and (IMO) should be doable without documentation.  Customizability should be the hard part that requires doc reading, possibly research, etc.

  I disagree that a user who cannot mess with INI files blindfolded should not be allowed to use anything other than mame32.  I suspect (hope?) this is an exaggeration.  The really good software out there, speaking of software in general, doesn't make you do all sorts of mindless things the computer should be able to automate for you.  Yes, there are always exceptions, but that line is pretty fuzzy and (again, IMO) changeable from developer to developer.  FE's are far from perfect, and thus we see all sorts of variations and derivatives out there.

  From the dev's standpoint I can understand a lot as well.  This is a labor of love, and once it's "good enough" for them (sometimes much more functionality than the dev would use!) they consider it complete.  This again varies from dev to dev, but it's only worth a certain amount of time to dedicate to this stuff.  If I may use minwah as an example (apologies in advance)...  There was some discussion about exiting windows with the power button not working because of how MAMEWAH was coded.  A solution was found (and even an example of code was given), but it's not high enough on minwah's priority list to get in there anytime soon.  Some people would say this is bad, others could care less.  It's certainly a loss for the potential MAMEWAH users out there who would care, but is that enough people for this to merit the time and attention?  Only minwah can decide.  If he gets enough pressure I'm sure this will get fixed sooner.  Anyhow, I'm getting offtopic.  (Again, sorry minwah.   )

  For me, my MAME cab is a hobby.  I am using an older version of mamewah simply because I don't want to take hours to re-setup everything.  I want it to work.  It's not perfect, and not what I'd call optimal, but it gets the job done with a minimum of effort.  I have a saved backup of the current "working" setup so that if anything goes wrong I trash the current incarnation and go to the backup.  I've experienced a lot of these "learning curve" pains and I'm not sure all of them should be there.  Paige, I share your pain.  =)

  As an aside, is there a technical reason for not being able to check the version of MAME a FE is running?  There are possible problems with mame derivatives here, but I'd expect that ot be the exception rather than the rule.  Couldn't you "automagically" set this in most cases?  And default to the new XML way if it's undeterminable?  This seems like fairly trivial coding.

  All that said, I want to thank the FE developers out there for making this stuff available to us!  It's a ton of work to do, and it -IS- appreciated.  Thanks for your efforts.

[paigeoliver]

I NEVER update my frontends or Mame versions once the cabinet is finished. I have one machine with like mame .27 on it, because that was the current version when that cab was set up (that one rather predictably runs arcadeos).

My other Mame cabinet has .60 on it, which was current when I set that one up,

I have done a lot of other cabs that I have sold and traded as well, on those I either went current version if it has a CPU better than 700 mhz, or I do .55

I like mame .55 anyway, it was a darn good version, and runs most of the good games and isn't nearly as CPU intensive as the current mame versions. I installed .55 on the cab I built today.

I do have a more "Deluxe" cab in the works, which will probably go with a more modern Mame version, since I have a 1200 mhz CPU to use in it.

[SpamMe]

@slycrel: Actually, I think that powering thing was fixed in Mamewah 1.52.

[Minwah]

question to minwah:
where is the custom list game information stored? I mean if I create a mame-x.ini, name it lets say favourites and then just add games there from other lists. Where is the information of which games I have added stored?

\mamewah\files\mame-x.lst

[Minwah]

@slycrel: Actually, I think that powering thing was fixed in Mamewah 1.52.

Yes it was

Problem I have is time.  I am being a bit less open to new features atm, since I have a todo list as long as my arm and no time to do it - other 'eye-candy' features can be added when I have done more crucial stuff.  Actually, since MW is running on my cab and does (almost) everything I want I am losing the motivation to actually do any more major changes.