Main > Lightguns
Ok we have lightgun support, now what?
Howard_Casto:
--- Quote from: bob sanders on July 15, 2002, 08:42:01 pm ---
have you guys played that real fire fighters gamee
look a system16.com for info
well it had a water hose and it was constantly on the screen does not flash and the water goes where you point it so no gyroscopes
i didnt see any big ass L bar on the 60 inch screen either the room was also well lit as optical guns only work full time if its in a real dark location
what technology are the water hoses using i dont got a clue
--- End quote ---
LoL. The sonic guns don't require a big a$$ed bracket to work. What they require is the three eraser tip sized sensors mounted in those brackets. (Which in an arcade game are usually mounted behind the bezel.) Sonic technology uses the ancient principal of geometric triangulation to detect the position of the gun and thus it only needs 3 points of reference to track the forth (the 3rd sensor is for the z axis.) Also in most setups this is constantly polling.
That's actually one of the benefits of sonic technology, but the programmers have yet to take advantage of it. Since there is a constant poll the positon can be buffered and in the event of an error during the firing sequence, it can take a good guess at your intended positon based on previous values.
Also rebel regarding your anger towards m$ it's misdirected. Blame game developers. When m$ first started to make directx, they looked towards existing game hardware for dos games as to what to support. Think about it.... joysticks were a rareity and 90% of the games out there were played with a mouse and keyboard. The few (and by that i mean two) lightguns available at the time were very unsuccessful. It would have been silly for them to waste time making support for them. Also with the exception of emulation, trackballs have never been a popular gaming device.
Well later down the road joysticks become more popular expecially since hardware manufacturers started making custom drivers to allow more axis/buttons per device. Well guess what m$ responds by updating dx's joystick support.
My point is m$ is out there to make money and arent' going to waste their time on unpopular hardware support. But if manufacturers make a custom piece of hardware and it becomes successful they will respond by giving it directX support.
As for the dual mouse thing, I believe that was left out so that it would be easier for mouse manufacturers to make mice drivers and for the consumer to setup your mouse. (Imagine having a mouse setup panel like the joystick one. Normal consumers would be lost.) Remember that the computer mouse is primarily used to for business apps and thus they come first.
I understand your frustration but you have to remember that this community and the hardware it likes to use is very much the minority.
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on July 21, 2002, 05:02:24 pm ---Also rebel regarding your anger towards m$ ... Blame game developers....
--- End quote ---
Well, them too, but it's a sort-of "Chicken or egg?" arguement. I was saying "chicken first" (OS), and you're saying "eggs first" (small businesses).
The situation is:
No app (business or game) company will write a program that uses two mice anymore (there were some dos CAD apps that did), because no mouse manufacturer will design their mouse/mouse drivers with more than their one mouse in mind, because m$ has designed winXP for one and only one mouse, because no app company has written a windows program that uses two mice, because.... (repeat)
Microsoft is the only company strong enough to break (or enforce) this cycle in the near future. It writes applications, writes/funds/distributes games, builds mice, builds game input devices, writes drivers, and writes the OS. Microsoft is a 5000 pound chicken that can sit anywhere it wants. It can, should IMO, re-add the multiple mice feature it had in win98, enable/write games to use them, and write/enable applications to use them.
Another point for the "chickens first" side; look how ms is pushing the PC video cards with the upcoming dx9 specs. Zero cards out today meet the specs. I think ms should do the same with the input device market.
It would be best if both ms and the other manufacturer and programming companies get together and get it together. (bad play on words, sorry) But M$ can forge the way on its own, being both the chicken and the egg. This is why I blame MS.
--- Quote ---As for the dual mouse thing, I believe that was left out so that it would be easier for mouse manufacturers to make mice drivers and for the consumer to setup your mouse. (Imagine having a mouse setup panel like the joystick one. Normal consumers would be lost.) Remember that the computer mouse is primarily used to for business apps and thus they come first.
--- End quote ---
Well, dual (triple, ect) USB mice work in winMe/98 with no complicated control panels and no confused users. There still is the "system mouse", the one windows mouse cursor people use. In addition to this virtual mouse, each USB mouse can also feed its data to it's own "mouse". All mice, including all USB mice, always feed the "system mouse". Applications look for only the "system mouse" events, and still work fine with two to more mice. No confusion. No special mouse manufacture drivers. If you have more than one USB mouse installed in your computer running winMe/98, your computer is proof that multiple mice don't cause a hitch for applications and users that think "mouse cursor"="mouse". And the separate multiple mice work for applications written to use it; see mame:analog+ for proof.
And even with only the "system mouse", I'm sure some people would love to able set mouse 1 to X sensitivity and Y accelaration, and touchpad 2 to M sensitivity and N accelaration, and trackball 3 to X sensitivity and N accelaration. I feel that all laptop computers need this (the touch pad needs very different settings than a mouse, IMO). Put it behind an "Advanced" button with the default for all mouse devices to have the same setting (like now), to save all those people from being confused, but let the "advanced" users have the ability. I bet graphic design/CAD/CAM people (running business apps) would use it the first day this abilitiy came out, after buying that second trackball or mouse they (haven't bought yet)/(returned before) because of the settings conflicts that happen now but could be avoided with the ability.
Multiple mice has it's business uses. IIRC, there were CAD programs for dos that were able to use two mice as separate inputs. CAD app usage is way up since then.
--- Quote ---I understand your frustration but you have to remember that this community and the hardware it likes to use is very much the minority.
--- End quote ---
I know. I just get frustrated when a feature gets dropped in an "upgrade". Like multiple mice feature being dropped when ms upgraded to XP. >:(
Sorry for my rant
Lilwolf:
Well, dropping features is one of microsofts bid downfall
there are at least 4 different incompatible versions of the String in MFC. Why? different departs use them... and they never got put back together. This sucks for developers who want/need on strong api to write two... so when you start merdging code with other departsments you aren't converting every data type to another... (btw, can you tell I was dinged for this one)
Multi mice isn't that useful with mice. It's amazingly difficult to find desk space for one mouse, let alone two.
What it was useful for is trackballs where you could have multiples next to each other. But even then, your kinda pushing it.
In games it would be... but no games are developing it. Trust me, if ID had 2player support on one machine running two usb mice... it would have been in XP. Counter strike... same thing.
It's just that nobody was really using it but us.
What we need to do is create our own driver (optimouse.sys) and run with it. It will be easier to do it with a serial device then a usb, because we can have complet control over the serial connection... but that wont help act labs at all.
But if act labs can get two guns running in 98, I will just stay there for my arcade cabinet.
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: Lilwolf on July 22, 2002, 09:27:06 am ---there are at least 4 different incompatible versions of the String in MFC. Why? different departs use them... and they never got put back together. This sucks for developers who want/need on strong api to write two... so when you start merdging code with other departsments you aren't converting every data type to another... (btw, can you tell I was dinged for this one)
--- End quote ---
Yuck.
--- Quote ---Multi mice isn't that useful with mice. It's amazingly difficult to find desk space for one mouse, let alone two.
What it was useful for is trackballs where you could have multiples next to each other. But even then, your kinda pushing it.
In games it would be... but no games are developing it. Trust me, if ID had 2player support on one machine running two usb mice... it would have been in XP. Counter strike... same thing.
--- End quote ---
Yes, multiple mice for use as separate inputs is in low demand (except by us :P ).
But many computers, especially laptops and CAD/graphic design workstation (ie: business computers) already have two mouse devices (but only used as one mouse pointer). Laptops have that touchpad mouse, and a ps/2 or USB port for external mice, and somtimes that joy-mouse. Many CAD/graphics design people use a mouse for windows and a trackball for actual drawing.
--- Quote ---It's just that nobody was really using it but us.
--- End quote ---
There are other stuff online that did multiple mouse stuff. The one I got the idea how to was for kids to draw on the same picture on a computer. Sharing a mouse, or having two mice control the same pointer is not the most productive way for kids to work together. But it too was not a "business" app.
One business app I think should like multiple mice is the 3D market. One mouse/trackball (the right hand one) continues to control the pointer for drawing, selecting, etc, while the other mouse/trackball (the left hand one) changes to only controlling the view (pan, zoom [move while pressing botton 1], rotate [move which pressing button 2]). The pointer mouse could still select zoom, pan, and rotate tool, but IMO, the single mouse pointer is doing too much in today's applications.
--- Quote ---What we need to do is create our own driver (optimouse.sys) and run with it. It will be easier to do it with a serial device then a usb, because we can have complet control over the serial connection.
--- End quote ---
Yes, creating a driver is the only way we can make sure it's possible (instead of waiting for M$ to do it for us ::) ). And even USB is possible too. But it's not possible for me to write a driver (yet). :-\
However, me, in regards to multiple mice/trackballs/lightguns: picture of kid pounding fists, yelling "Now! now! now!" ;D LOL
Howard_Casto:
I'll agree with all of that, but for gods sake if someone invests the time in writng a driver make it for a usb interface. Usb is much cleaner, has a higer baud rate than a serial port, and most importantly will still be around in a few years.
A good start would be to take a generic usb human interface device controller chip and build around it. I know next to nill about usb though, so excuse my ignorance. :)
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