Author Topic: Making money from MAME (Read 3431 times)

DarkSoul1 · « **on:** April 28, 2004, 10:16:45 am »

Just browsing eBay Australia and I find this guy is still selling full MAME cabinets.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3289740046&category=3945

I have seen him doing this on eBay Aust for about a year now with various designs. He is definitely not an enthusiast, only someone out to make money on other's work.

What can be done about this?

JustMichael · « **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2004, 10:36:31 am »

Since the ad doesn't say that it includes Mame or any roms, nothing. Ebay will see it as the guy just selling homemade cabinets.

SirPeale · « **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2004, 10:36:34 am »

Well...nothing. There are plenty of people that do it. A lot on this board as well.

It's an issue of copyright that the copyright holders must enforce.

patrickl · « **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2004, 10:55:54 am »

Actually in the ad it says "SETUP AS MAME". I'd assume that meant that MAME came preinstalled (especially since it's followed by "JUST PLUG IN AND PLAY").

Another option would be to try and get the auction canceled because the ad in all caps

DarkSoul1 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2004, 10:56:42 am »

I still don't fully agree with it though.

hyiu · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2004, 12:10:04 pm »

legal or not.... I don't know...

but that guy is selling a homemade cocktail cab....
which I think is ok (legal).....

using mame as a helper ??.. sure....

at least he's not selling a copy of mame + roms...
(we've seen our shares of that..... ebay auctions and even websites used to sell that before....)

so.... to me... he's alright....
I don't see what's wrong.....

there are many other companies doing exactly the same thing....

Stingray · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2004, 12:26:16 pm »

There are a lot of people who would love to own a MAME cab, but lack the skills needed to build/ convert one themselves. I don't see anything wrong with people building MAME cabs for sale. The MAME developers and rom copyright holders probably have an opinion that differs from mine.

-S

paigeoliver · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2004, 04:10:12 pm »

I sell several Mame cabinets a year.

And anyway, truly, deep in your hearts you know there is no REAL difference between selling the cabinet with roms, or without. You already have all the roms, you would certainly give them all to your best friend if he wanted them, your customer is no different.

Jakobud · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2004, 04:48:09 pm »

Well he says that it is setup with Mame ready to play, so that immediately means that part about it is illegal. And according to those screenshots he is using Game Launcher as his frontend, which is also not for sale.

Edgedamage · « **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2004, 04:54:31 pm »

How fun would a cab be if it only had robby roto on it.

Santoro · « **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2004, 04:55:49 pm »

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 28, 2004, 04:10:12 pm

You already have all the roms, you would certainly give them all to your best friend if he wanted them, your customer is no different.

Nope.

In your example above, the red text is true, blue text is false. I trust myself and friends, I don't know my customers from a hole in the wall. Is he a copyright lawyer? A Wlliams exec?

Selling ROMs or even appearing to sell ROMs is a much worse offense than posessing them for personal use.

All IMHO of course.

Edgedamage · « **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:02:29 pm »

Is there anyone here who can say that every rom they have is dumped from their own original boards? Hmmmm

Edgedamage · « **Reply #12 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:05:22 pm »

Quote from: Edgedamage on April 28, 2004, 05:02:29 pm

Is there anyone here who can say that every rom they have is dumped from their own original boards? Hmmmm

Nope can't say I own all the original boards.

Santoro · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:10:04 pm »

Quote from: Edgedamage on April 28, 2004, 05:02:29 pm

Is there anyone here who can say that every rom they have is dumped from their own original boards? Hmmmm

I doubt it. Maybe a few hard-core folks.

I plan on buying all of the StarRoms-available ROMS that I play. I wish that they would strike deals with the other vendors, because I really want my cabinet to be 100% licensed. I only play 20 games regularly. If I could legally and reasonably own the software ROMs (I don't mean by buying boards for 15-70$) I would gladly pay for the right. Just as the music industry is missing out, I think that the arcade manufacturers are missing out on a small but steady revenue stream by not selling the old ROMs.

Rawker · « **Reply #14 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:10:13 pm »

funny thing is most people who post that it's illegal probably have a coin door and keep the money after people play on their cabinets.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #15 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:10:23 pm »

Quote from: Santoro on April 28, 2004, 04:55:49 pm

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 28, 2004, 04:10:12 pm
You already have all the roms, you would certainly give them all to your best friend if he wanted them, your customer is no different.

Nope.

In your example above, the red text is true, blue text is false. I trust myself and friends, I don't know my customers from a hole in the wall. Is he a copyright lawyer? A Wlliams exec?

Selling ROMs or even appearing to sell ROMs is a much worse offense than posessing them for personal use.

All IMHO of course.

Agreed,

I also caught the "setup as MAME", which could mean anything from -

1) I have run MAME on this and deleted it, and you just install your copy and it will work fine (No problem).

2) I installed MAME and all the screenshots, snapshots, samplefiles, and a frontend, now just put your romfiles in the ROMS folder and you're all set up (probably violation of the MAME license and maybe the frontend's license, but not much we could do about it.), or

3) I have MAME and a full set of ROMS included on the machine. (Major license violation, and probably enough to get E-bay to pull the auction). Then again, I've seen laptop ads on E-bay saying "This laptop comes with the following software available and if you tell me you own a licensed copy of the software, I will leave it installed. I don't need to see the license or a copy of your software, I'll take your word for it, and I'm not selling the software, only installing it as a courtesy and convenience to you", so I suppose he could try the same tactic.

GamingGreg · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2004, 08:53:26 pm »

If you want to give the user something, why not install one of the Atari, Nameco, or Capcom collections for the PC pre-installed? One that you've bought to give to them, of course. (I believe the license on those are transferable). Give them the CD and box to them when you give them the cabinet. This would avoid any MAME legality issues, and at least give them something to start with.

DarkSoul1 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 28, 2004, 10:12:52 pm »

Opinions seem to be somewhat divided.

It's the fact that his entire wording in the sale is ambiguous in an effort to avoid any legal problems.

I have thought of building and selling cabinets, but not installed with 2000+ games (or any games at all). To me it is just not in the spirit of what MAME is.

It would be no different to me skulking around here and copying all the great artwork, sticking it on a cab and then selling it off without any recognition or permission of the artists.

bloodyviking77 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2004, 06:09:03 am »

just by the by, the cab that the OP linked to looks a lot like the cabs that ozstick sells.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #19 on:** April 29, 2004, 06:37:51 am »

Quote from: bloodyviking77 on April 29, 2004, 06:09:03 am

just by the by, the cab that the OP linked to looks a lot like the cabs that ozstick sells.

Similar, but the "school desk" was a pretty common cocktail cab style.

The pics look different enough that I don't think this is someone stealing OzStick's images or OzStick selling on E-bay under a different name.

Lilwolf · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2004, 08:39:03 am »

Letter of the law...

I take it as soon as you mention MAME in an add... you are using it to make money... Using its name to sell your product... and at that point, its against the mame license.

BUT....

I think its acceptable..

BUT...

giving roms to non-friends because the bought a cabinet isn't really acceptable in my opinion...

but I can see giving them a CD / DVD with them is.

but..

all is really relative... and the big thing.

if you give roms in a cabinet that you sell... you shouldn't talk about it at all... it IS illegal... and I don't really want to know which on this board (especially the ones I think of as friends) are doing 'bad' things...

everyone here has probably obtained a copy of a rom they don't own the original... BAD!

but everyone here has probably supported each of those companies to the point that without people like us... they wouldn't have stayed in business...

all a wash imho... just keep it on the down low dudes

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2004, 10:18:27 am »

Quote from: Lilwolf on April 29, 2004, 08:39:03 am

Letter of the law...
I take it as soon as you mention MAME in an add... you are using it to make money... Using its name to sell your product... and at that point, its against the mame license.
BUT....
I think its acceptable..

Not sure. Actually the MAME license just states "MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed."

If you have the source code installed in a cabinet, but you are throwing it in, and the actual price is the cabinet cost, it probably is a technical violation of the license.

If you have the cabinet running MAME and charge 25 cents to play a game, the MAME devs consider it a violation of the license, but it might be a pretty big stretch.

You are implying the Act-Labs and Ultimarc violate the MAME license by saying their products are MAME compatible, which increases their sales, which increases their profits, which amounts to selling MAME. I think that's a pretty big stretch, but mayb not much bigger than the example above.

Quote

giving roms to non-friends because the bought a cabinet isn't really acceptable in my opinion...
but I can see giving them a CD / DVD with them is.

I am hoping you meant giving a CD / DVD with them to friends is acceptable in your opinion.

If it's a non-friend buying a cabinet, I can't see that it matters whether I give him a DVD or if the ROMS are on the HD.

Personally, I don't think it's "acceptable from a legal standpoint" to give the ROMS to a friend, not that I'm saying I would'nt do this, or have any hard feelings with anyone else who does.

Quote

but..

all is really relative... and the big thing.

all a wash imho... just keep it on the down low dudes

I agree with the rest of the comments in this post. Best not to do it, and if you don't do that, best not to post it for all the world to see.

SirPeale · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2004, 11:20:22 am »

Here goes.

Selling MAME is against their license. In other words, I can not put MAME on a disc and sell that disc, IE selling the program.

Selling the ROM images is illegal, since you do not own the intelectual rights to those images. It's up to the respective owners to persue that, if they want to or not.

Selling arcade items branded as Mame compatible is NOT against the license of Mame. All the license for Mame covers is the software. Hardware that works with it? Not a consideration towards that license.

That's it, cut and dried.

patrickl · « **Reply #23 on:** April 29, 2004, 12:48:00 pm »

If you sell a CD/DVD and charge only for reproduction costs that is generally considered "free distribution" of the executable. All GNU stuff is distributed that way (They charge up to $200 for a red hat distribution these days)

Along those lines, if you distribute MAME (for free) on a cab (which you sell) you should be fine. I can't see anywhere in the license that you can't accompany it with a sold product. Just that you can;t charge for MAME itself.

The only thing you are not allowed to do, is to distribute ROM images along with MAME, but if people here start complaining about that .... well ...

I can't figure out don't see why people are bothered about this so much. I think those cabs look good and he doesn't seem to be scamming people like many of the "buy a trashed cab, slap in a trashed PC and auction it" ebay sellers.

Stingray · « **Reply #24 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:00:05 pm »

Quote from: patrickl on April 29, 2004, 12:48:00 pm

I can't figure out don't see why people are bothered about this so much. I think those cabs look good and he doesn't seem to be scamming people like many of the "buy a trashed cab, slap in a trashed PC and auction it" ebay sellers.

My thoughts exactly. He seems to be selling a quality product. People are willing to buy said product. What's the big deal?

-S

lokki · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:10:15 pm »

Quote from: patrickl on April 29, 2004, 12:48:00 pm

Along those lines, if you distribute MAME (for free) on a cab (which you sell) you should be fine. I can't see anywhere in the license that you can't accompany it with a sold product. Just that you can;t charge for MAME itself.

I think that the distinction is that you are using MAME as a selling point of the cab. So that even if you say that MAME is free in reality because MAME is installed you are able to get a higher price.
Having said that personally I don't have much of a problem with selling cabs with MAME. (not that my opinion matters)

What does botter me is if the cab is used to generate money. (charge per play).

paigeoliver · « **Reply #26 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:24:02 pm »

Anyway, if you really want to get upset about people selling Mame, then forget the cabinet builders, they are selling a legitimate product. The end product is no different, if the seller installs the software, or the buyer. The end result is THE SAME. The fact is that you can't sit on any high horse about any of this, unless you are that one phantom person (who I have yet to meet), in the emulation community who has a 100 percent "legal" rom collection.

Where was I, oh yeah, forget the cabinet builders, they are just guys like you. If you want something to complain about, then why not complain about the plethora of Mame powered JAMMA boards coming out of Asia. Every 3 in one, 6 in one, 9 in one, 12 in one, the Mega-Williams, the game crystal, the 1000 in one board, and others are ALL Mame. All Mame, all mass produced by actual companies, not just individuals, and no one says jack about this stuff, and I see this stuff on location. I see this stuff for sale on ebay, I see this stuff at every auction, and I see this stuff for sale from "reputable" amusement companies.

Tilzs · « **Reply #27 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:27:06 pm »

This is all blown out of proportion. I don't see the big deal if it has Mame on it or not. It's the cab that someone is buying not because it has mame on it or not but rather because it can run mame. Who cares if it's useing the word "MAME" to sell the cab. Thats really no different than Oscar selling spinners with the word MAME on it.

Besides it's up to the copyright holder to enforce their copyright, not BYOAC.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #28 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:33:55 pm »

Quote from: patrickl on April 29, 2004, 12:48:00 pm

Along those lines, if you distribute MAME (for free) on a cab (which you sell) you should be fine. I can't see anywhere in the license that you can't accompany it with a sold product. Just that you can;t charge for MAME itself.

It comes down to whether MAME adds to the intrinsic value of the product. Like my laptop example above - now if I sell the laptop for $2500 more than similar laptops, but the $2500 in unauthorized software is included free . . .

Another example - My dad once wanted to buy a bottle of wine on Sunday, which was illegal in the town I lived in, but the salesclerk offered to give him the bottle for free if he would agree to tip him the selling price of it . . . .

Quote

The only thing you are not allowed to do, is to distribute ROM images along with MAME, but if people here start complaining about that .... well ...

I can't figure out don't see why people are bothered about this so much.

Everyone's afraid of the Napster effect. Napster was a great think when only a few 1000 people knew about it. When it became a household word, the recoding industry shut it down fast (more or less). . .

Lilwolf · « **Reply #29 on:** April 29, 2004, 03:24:05 pm »

naa... this is a good convo... hasn't got nasty yet.

but its always good to respect the mame dev. wishes. If they came out and said they felt that nobody should EVER sell a mame cab (with software or without)... then we should adhere.. they spend WAY MORE time writing mame then we do to make playing mame more fun.

if they ask for us NEVER to add mame to any cab (sell or no) then I would recommend us not mentioning that we add mame to our cab

Quote from: Tilzs on April 29, 2004, 01:27:06 pm

This is all blown out of proportion. I don't see the big deal if it has Mame on it or not. It's the cab that someone is buying not because it has mame on it or not but rather because it can run mame. Who cares if it's useing the word "MAME" to sell the cab. Thats really no different than Oscar selling spinners with the word MAME on it.

Besides it's up to the copyright holder to enforce their copyright, not BYOAC.

Truecade · « **Reply #30 on:** April 29, 2004, 03:58:22 pm »

Give me a break. I've looked at this auction, and I don't belive there is anything wrong with it as long a ROMs are not included with the cabinet.

I've built a half-dozen MAME cabinets for friends and family over the past year, and the money I've made has been for the dozens of labor hours that goes into the design and asembly of each cabinet. I always pre-install and configure MAME for the control panel, but never include ROMs. And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong, illegal, or immoral about it.

I'll be listing this cabinet on eBay in the next couple of weeks, and hope to sell many more in the future. I fail to see how selling a cabinet pre-configured for MAME is making money from MAME itself. But if the MAME developers make it known that they do not want their software bundled a cabinet, I would compy.

NIVO · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2004, 08:15:52 pm »

im going to mention a point here, might be a moot one at that but............this cab requires a OS, whether it be dos or xp or anything in between, does it not? Doesnt state if you get a licensed copy of that as well. Any one of these points can be argued on both sides. Pretty much simply boils down to if it will be enforced or not, our opinions mean nothing.

SirPeale · « **Reply #32 on:** April 29, 2004, 10:03:44 pm »

Quote from: NIVO on April 29, 2004, 08:15:52 pm

im going to mention a point here, might be a moot one at that but............this cab requires a OS, whether it be dos or xp or anything in between, does it not?

This depends on what the OS on the cab is. Linux falls under the GPL. FreeDOS as well. Likely it doesn't have either, though.

Blakey · « **Reply #33 on:** April 30, 2004, 02:17:33 am »

Quote from: bloodyviking77 on April 29, 2004, 06:09:03 am

just by the by, the cab that the OP linked to looks a lot like the cabs that ozstick sells.

Not even close. That's like saying the arcadedepot cocktails look a lot like them. OzSticks are almost exact repro's of the LAI cocktail cabinet, this is a design loosely based on the general layout.

I considered buying a flat pack cabinet from him, but for AU$500 & shipping I decided to design my own (better) one. Plus, I contacted someone he sold to and the seller doesn't seem that good to deal with, and the overall quality of the product is soso (buyer ended up scrapping it and making his own)

He's been selling them in various guises, cabinet only, (~AU$500) cabinet & controls (~AU$1000), cabinet, controls, computer... (~AU$2000), but rarely ever sells one. He's also had a few with Galaga boards in them too.

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 29, 2004, 01:24:02 pm

If you want something to complain about, then why not complain about the plethora of Mame powered JAMMA boards coming out of Asia. Every 3 in one, 6 in one, 9 in one, 12 in one, the Mega-Williams, the game crystal, the 1000 in one board, and others are ALL Mame. All Mame, all mass produced by actual companies, not just individuals, and no one says jack about this stuff, and I see this stuff on location. I see this stuff for sale on ebay, I see this stuff at every auction, and I see this stuff for sale from "reputable" amusement companies.

Really? So are these 3in1 boards based on MAME's work?
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ozstick/parts.html
I didn't realise that all the multi boards used MAME's ROM dumps and a little more code to enable game selection. That is pretty poor, as I assumed these were legal licensed boards that could be used on site if desired.

bloodyviking77 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 30, 2004, 06:35:19 am »

Quote from: Blakey on April 30, 2004, 02:17:33 am

Quote from: bloodyviking77 on April 29, 2004, 06:09:03 am
just by the by, the cab that the OP linked to looks a lot like the cabs that ozstick sells.

Not even close. That's like saying the arcadedepot cocktails look a lot like them. OzSticks are almost exact repro's of the LAI cocktail cabinet, this is a design loosely based on the general layout.

Don't get me wrong - I meant that from memory it looked a bit like the guy selling this one might have been "inspired" by the ozstick design. (i.e. borrowed it!)

On looking again, I guess the cabs are fairly different $:-\$

by the way I have bought stuff from ozstick before and have been very happy with Chris' service. . ..

fredster · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2004, 04:32:46 pm »

Quote

Really? So are these 3in1 boards based on MAME's work?
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ozstick/parts.html
I didn't realise that all the multi boards used MAME's ROM dumps and a little more code to enable game selection. That is pretty poor, as I assumed these were legal licensed boards that could be used on site if desired.

How do you know that the boards are mamed? I think they are emulated, but the ones I have bought have z80's on them too. The first emulator I saw was bootleg Ms Pac's in 1981. Those boards are in about 1/2 of the auction Ms Pac's I've seen. These new boards are just emulating the originals. I doubt if they have any os besides z80 on them.

These new 4-1 & 9-1 boards are not licenced as far as I know. They are bootleg I'm sure. They come in a brown paper bag dude.

Does anybody know the original source of these boards? I think they are from Korea, but I don't know where???

paigeoliver · « **Reply #36 on:** April 30, 2004, 04:53:47 pm »

Pretty sure the JAMMA emu boards have got to be Mame, since the primary supplier of them can program them as ANY game. Also, all the ones I have seen are PC based, they have VGA out, gameport out, and other PC stuff on them.

They are definitely emulated. Now why would a bootlegger take time to WRITE his own emulator for PC hardware when there was already one available?

The three in one boards are DEFINITELY unlicensed, and they are on location all over the place.

Also, note this phrase on ozsticks website.

Quote

**Note that other games are available on special order at slightly extra cost if you prefer. Please email us for a list of games and pricing.

They can pretty much play ANYTHING, the only real limitations would be the speed of the likely ultra-slow, cheapo platform, and the size of roms used onboard the MOBO. It looks like the suppliers of them have kept the game selection small, probably because they are using tiny builds of Mame or vantage, rather than the full build.

Heck, just thought of that. Vantage, it is a small exe, seems to support EVERY game I have seen on the multi-boards, and works full speed on OLD platforms. These things might actually be vantage,

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #37 on:** May 01, 2004, 06:32:18 am »

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 30, 2004, 04:53:47 pm

Heck, just thought of that. Vantage, it is a small exe, seems to support EVERY game I have seen on the multi-boards, and works full speed on OLD platforms. These things might actually be vantage,

You might be onto something. All supposition on our parts, but from Vantage's homepage -

"Vertical ANTiquated Arcade Game Emulator
VAntAGE is designed purely as a replacement for your 'classic' arcade board collection."

And nothing that I could see about licensing or usage, etc. on the main page, (although the download does include a file about licensing, which says "non-commercial use only".

But it's also a lot lower profile than MAME.

SirPeale · « **Reply #38 on:** May 01, 2004, 09:06:00 am »

Quote from: Tiger-Heli on May 01, 2004, 06:32:18 am

But it's also a lot lower profile than MAME.

And no longer maintained. Well, I'm trying to get the Dig Dug driver working. Anyone want to help?

Dav · « **Reply #39 on:** May 02, 2004, 11:58:40 am »

Quote from: paigeoliver on April 30, 2004, 04:53:47 pm

Pretty sure the JAMMA emu boards have got to be Mame, since the primary supplier of them can program them as ANY game. Also, all the ones I have seen are PC based, they have VGA out, gameport out, and other PC stuff on them.

They are definitely emulated. Now why would a bootlegger take time to WRITE his own emulator for PC hardware when there was already one available?

I know someone who took apart the cpu epoxy block and it was a risc processor. So I'm guessing some kind of bootleg playstation board. The last auction I went to had 1 real pac/galaga and 4 of these 3in1 fake boards. Namco is still selling these so they can't be happy. It's just a matter of time before they come down on these guys. It could easily involve mame too. I'm sure we all agree that mame is legal, but if they go after individual developers that doesn't really matter. I personally don't have the money to argue with them.

BTW here's a newsgroup post from Bob Sokol Namco's US licencee. They seem to be pretty serious, http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3EA07243.C442F970%40Twobits.com


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