Software Support > GroovyMAME
Why use emulators when theres RetroArch?
Calamity:
--- Quote from: Recapnation on September 06, 2022, 06:53:26 pm ---This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.
--- End quote ---
So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.
That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.
schmerzkaufen:
--- Quote from: Recapnation on September 06, 2022, 06:53:26 pm ---This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.
--- End quote ---
I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.
If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long, saying all them end users say is dumb crap, antagonize them, then you lose many to opportunists like RA, who will somehow give them what they want or rather erzatz features crossing lines that shouldn't have been.
Too easy to blame people who were powerless anyway, the demographics of end users are not developers, they don't take the decisions. TBH I've seen too many devs saying BS that shows they don't know anything from the world of gaming, and when called out on it the only ever reaction is to be hypocritical, and over and over deflect and blame everything wrong on the user base, even to the point as looking down on gamers as a whole. How fckn stupidly out of this world is that coming from arcade emu devs and so-called preservationists ? so gamers culture is fake ? only devs know ? how conceited.
That has been an unsightly show for a very long time, and I'm not sure it is random people I'd blame most for the negative consequences. Developers are often the greatest drama queens in the scene, the moment any comment isn't unconditional praise and a hint of criticism appears, they explode. But no one ever from the end user's crowd ever put a knife under their throats, nor ever had the power to do so anyway.
I'm all on the dev's side for the respect of the very essential principles, even though we could say that some are sacred, I'm not blindly supporting extremes like it's a religion VS heretics situation, because it's really not what happens despite the manipulative narratives.
People ask devs for stuff, some sound, some stupid. It's normal. Devs then control the output anyway, not end users. It's normal.
Devs who did tons of drama out of this and denied any legitimacy to even a fraction of the user base's own narratives, ever-demonizing them regardless of the topic, are just plain self-centered arses standing on no higher moral ground than the bad users.
In the case of MAME, they worked at ruining their reputation as hard as the bad users teaming with RA did.
Now, I don't follow what happens in the case of the FPGA scene, but as far as I would believe what you say is indeed what's happening, I won't judge on the precise matter.
As I said before though even if people ask things, it's the dev's power to decide what makes it or not into his work.
It is possible to offer features that don't do harm to development and preservation nor geopardize gameplay fairness when required, if it wasn't possible then Groovy, or Wolf, wouldn't exist.
I agree though that in the case of the FPGA projects it indeed sounds very incongruous. :dunno
donluca:
--- Quote from: Calamity on September 07, 2022, 10:52:45 am ---
--- Quote from: Recapnation on September 06, 2022, 06:53:26 pm ---This is again, of course, just my opinion, but Mister is already the new old MAME, where quantity is more important than quality. In the end, it's now a popular project sustained by its wide userbase, and we know what a wide userbase, the people, asks for. There's not enough documentation for proper FPGA implementations, anyway.
--- End quote ---
So true. To be fair, old MAME development wasn't Patreon-propelled, which probably doesn't mean anything to accuracy but at least it does to the epic.
That's btw the epic that's lost when somebody wraps you into a "core". And then calls the games "content", as if they were some Netflix's excretion.
--- End quote ---
I partially disagree.
Those kind of people will still stick to ARM SBCs such as RasPi + Retroarch and similar solutions.
When you're doing a MiSTer core you know that your work will be put under a microscope and people will be dissecting it and comparing it to real hardware so they have to be careful, they can't just slap a stack of hacks which barely work and call it a day because they're gonna get called out and people will bandwagon and your work will be, if not discarded, then probably not as widely used.
The bar over the years has been raised by several orders of magnitude.
We went from "OMG it works! It has no sound or music, it runs at 5 fps but I'm playing NES on my PC!" to "I really wish this emu would be more efficient so I could run it full speed on my PC" to finally "I want an emulator which delivers a result I personally can't distinguish from my real console* ". And since some years, buzzwords such as "cycle accurate" and similar have started to gain traction so there are a subset of people that really care and people using FPGAs (ie: they have to pay for, IMHO, pretty expensive hardware and invest a considerable amount of time setting everything up) which are going to scrutinize your work very closely and won't set for anything less than perfection**.
*: this varies from person to person of course. But in general, it means "me, amateur gamer, can't tell a difference"
**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.
dmckean:
Old MAME was in every way a better project than the 20 years of hostility that followed. I'm looking for a great end user experience first and foremost. Preservation is just a bonus and should never be the focus. It's all about playing video games and having fun.
Recapnation:
--- Quote ---I feel obligated to nuance this, GroovyMAME is pretty much the embodiment of many things the people asked for, and they were legit right to.
--- End quote ---
Which people? A dozen of enthusiasts who kept their CRTs? That's never a wide userbase. Nor it actually is the several hundreds it got today who aren't asking for much as the main job was done when they came. You're just an exception.
--- Quote ---If you go as - best example being - in MAME's shoes and look down on the user base for long
--- End quote ---
I've seen so many silly petitions coupled with uncivil tones that I kind of find easy to sympathize with MAME devs. We indeed weren't so lucky that these talented devs actually liked video games much (and the ones who did a bit quickly moved away?), but... we indeed were so lucky that these talented people without much interest in the games themselves dedicated so much effort and time to the cause. I actually believe that both conditions (loving the games and loving game disintegration) have to be mutually exclusive.
--- Quote ---**: This means people will put FPGA and real console side by side and look if timing is correct and if there are graphical/sound glitches.
--- End quote ---
And they're found out (by the few that do this) and not much is done so many times? I don't know, check the Neo Geo core status, or how the Cave games are being added. Check how they got the most capable man in regards to arcade games accuracy dedicating his efforts to the Neo Geo Pocket (a handheld which owes basically all its merits to its particular D-pad, so has little point on Mister). We're clearly in a phase now of getting there in as much as possible, not as well as possible, and that's concurrent with the project's popularity. Yeah, I guess there's a higher level of exigency today and devs listen more (thanks to patronization, let's not fool ourselves), but it's far from optimal.
--- Quote from: haynor666 on September 07, 2022, 03:05:11 am ---THUNDER FORCE II - I have Megadrive version
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It's a downgrade. It's a bit better balanced (easier, shorter), but it has less stages and simplfied visuals and sound.
--- Quote ---GENOCIDE - I played PC Engine CD version and I don't like this game too much
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You won't be missing much, then. It's likely the worst entry in the list.
--- Quote ---GENOCIDE 2 - the same situation but I played SNES version, maybe I didn't play to long, is it good ?
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It's definitely much better (than both, the SFC version and the predecessor), but not a must.
--- Quote ---ZAVAS - not interested (these days I don't play jRPG too much, especially when are in japanese laguage only)
EMERALD DRAGON - japan only RPG so I wasn't interested, PC Engine version exists
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Glodia's games never are your usual JRPG and combats are really strategic there. The PCE version of ED (like the SFC one) is totally different. But yep, Japanese only for now, I'm afraid.
--- Quote ---KNIGHT ARMS - I've seen this long time ago but I don't remember how good it was
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It's ultimately an average/decent game but its historical context is something else. It's Thunder Force's creator first action game right after leaving Techno Soft and forming up his own company, so he tried to awe everybody with a unique approach which seemlessly concatenate Space Harrier-like phases (with full faux 360º rotation) with side-scrolling ones. It also has compatibility with analog controllers.
--- Quote ---WANDERERS FROM YS - so many version I've seen, any better than SNES/Megadrive? In english ?
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Never played those, but it gotta be as at least the MD version is based on the X68 version and the SFC one had a subpar developer. It's a remake (of the 88SR original) by Falcom themselves, and their only X68 game at that. Only in Japanese and it's protected, though. If you want an English-language console port, the PCE is the one to pick as the music there has no equal.
--- Quote ---LAGOON - almost the same as SNES version
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As much as SFC Street Fighter II is to the arcade game.
--- Quote ---GENJUUKI (Undead line) - I have mixed feeling about X68000 port, for years I played Megadrive version, is it better ?
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Sure thing. They're very different -- you'll find Genjuuki to be a glorified remake with lots of new stuff of the splendid MSX2 original while the MD version is a very compromised take in every regard 'cept for the bosses.
--- Quote ---ARCUS ODYSSEY - I never played X68000 version but it's (at least visually) almost identical to Megadrive version
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It's one of the closest X68-MD ports by Wolf Team, but like the others (Granada, Axis, which I forgot to add, and Sol-Feace) it has more content and better visuals/music as well. Granada, I actually prefer the MD port, though.
--- Quote ---DIE BAHNWELT - I din't see this one, top down shooter, might be interesting but it's hires mode
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It's Alien Syndrome meets Ys, kind of. A quite special one. Hi-res, but what's the matter.
--- Quote ---YS - remake and in hires mode :/
--- End quote ---
A good remake indeed, despite all the camp it throws at you. Easier than the original, but it got awesome levels of care by the authors -- unique NPC throughout all the quest, improved save system so that no disk change nor keyboard is necessary, much better collision detection thanks to the higher resolution. Falcom's own remake exists and is better, but overlooking this is a mistake.
--- Quote ---LAST BATTALION - the same problem as with Daioh/Shienryu games - an updated (!?!?!) port of Override from PC Engine
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A deep revision of Override, indeed. It's a Sting game, and these people never made a turd.
--- Quote ---AKUMAJOU DRACULA - since I have Castlevania Chronicles on PS1 I didn't bother to test it. Original version is on CD
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The port in Chronicles has some issues which make of it the poorman edition (and I'm saying this being it the one I own as well, even if it's still sealed). The only problem/disadvantage with the X68 original was the lack of a 15-kHz mode, but that's automatically solved with MAME.
--- Quote ---SCORPIUS - it's on my list to play :D
PHALANX - I have original X68000 version and indeed X68000 version is better :)
OLTEUS II - on my list :)
AQUALES - on my list :)
ÉTOILE PRINCESSE - on my list
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So that's not enough to "justify emulation" or what's your list for?
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--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---As for PC-8801 - I was never interested it's library just like many other japanese only computers. So many computers and games :/
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Your lose, then, I guess.
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Proabably You have right, someday I'll probably get to this system games.
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Just remember not to mistake the PC-8801 with the PC-8801 Mk-II SR. It's much like the MSX and the MSX 2 case -- entirely different things despite the retrocompatibility (and the people's claims). The 88SR is where the good stuff resides.
--- Quote ---I don't remember any stuttering. Maybe the speed up/slow down games to match GameCube refresh rate.
--- End quote ---
Apparently, only stutter. The Swiss hack halved it somehow, but still there, they say.
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