Software Support > GroovyMAME
Why use emulators when theres RetroArch?
Trnzaddict:
--- Quote from: MK3FANATIC on August 25, 2022, 09:03:40 am ---yes I use retroarch for several systems, BUT my order of priority is;
groovymame > mame > standalone emulator > retroarch
I get the impression that accuracy, fluidity and input lag are always better in the other options than in retroarch.
--- End quote ---
?
Do you know much about RA? It can deliver lower input latency than even the real hardware via run ahead.
I don’t know what other emulators you’re using (Groovymame aside) that you think have less input latency than you can achieve with RA. Seriously.
schmerzkaufen:
Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.
RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.
The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?
Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.
Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.
Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.
Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? :o)
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.
If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.
abispac:
--- Quote from: schmerzkaufen on August 29, 2022, 02:44:00 pm ---Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? :o)
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.
If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.
--- End quote ---
Ill honest, i dont understand half of what you just say, but, the tittle of my post was meant to be something ealse, i dont praise RA, but i found it cool to be able to play most console games within a simple setup trhu hyperspin and rocketlauncher. At the moment i was having problems setting up nes and snes games, as zsnesw couldnt detect some resolutions, and snes9x not having an esc option to exit the gmae, also ubernes, wich is my favorite for lcd, had some problems i dont remember right now. And RA took those problems away, making it easy to set up. Now i know there are some emus that have more acuracy and better setting for lcd, than for crt, so i found RA againg cool to set up with crt. Talking about latency or lag, i do notice it in some emus more than other, and since i have not finished my setup on this project, i cant really have an opinion on that right now, but i do know that some relly really make the game almos umplayable as they have so much input lag, ill have to see how RA would work on that matter. Hope RA would find a way to fix any input lag probles the correct way.
Now i found it cool that mame can also load games independet of the game name as long as you have the correct rom. So i might be end up using groovymame for nes and snes,, allthough ill have to find out if the emulation is better than RA cores, as i get a mesage that the emulation is not perfect on every game i load.
Trnzaddict:
--- Quote from: schmerzkaufen on August 29, 2022, 02:44:00 pm ---Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.
RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.
The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?
Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.
Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.
Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.
Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? :o)
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.
If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.
--- End quote ---
Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.
I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”
Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.
abispac:
--- Quote from: Trnzaddict on August 29, 2022, 04:53:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: schmerzkaufen on August 29, 2022, 02:44:00 pm ---Groovy can remove most of the lag that shouldn't be there in the 'chain' in ideal conditions, trying to get as close to the real hardware's own delay.
It manages that by attending to input, video, and sound lag all at the same time seamlessly, without altering the legit delay within the game.
RA does things the other - wrong - way around when using run-ahead, eliminating the very portion of delay one shouldn't touch if there's even an ounce of care for proper emulation accuracy, and fair play.
The only excuses I can find to the use of run-ahead is when a player engages online play with lots of delay or uses a quite laggy display.
In practice all I've seen is people abusing that feature without a care in the world and even filing scoring records under conditions that can be considered an advantage even before the actual pcb's run in a cab.
Not that I care much about scoring and speedrunning 'sports' myself, but what is there to brag about victories with run-ahead pedal to the metal ?
You know, there's those streaming idiots who get congratuled beating old high scores with sync off and on top of that running enough frames ahead to blow away the conditions the original scores were achieved with. Thanks RA ?
Damn, IIRC there's even an howto page set up on libretro to explain ppl how many frames they should run ahead per game or system, great way to make sure as many as possible do the wrong thing. The "new normal" I guess ?
No thanks, I take Groovy's lossless/noncheat method over it anytime, sure it's hardware demanding but so is run-ahead.
Calamity will say that anyway VRR is becoming mainstream-enough to recommend over those, so not really worth fighting on the topic anymore...sure, we can sort of move on from these features at relatively low cost and enjoy what's actually the best.
But I'll never forgive RA for the damage it's done to more valuable emulation all these years, along with encouraging ppl to use old builds and roms, their indeed populist discourse messed up a generation's understandiong and practices on the topic of lag/delay.
Groovy all along deserved way more praises for its achievements, I guess that didn't happen because it couldn't shake away its reputation of austere, obscure, hard-to-use build (the latter criticism to be fair was true up until relatively recently)
Even when bits of Groovy's developed features were ported to mainline MAME, ppl mostly didn't realize that these 1) came from Groovy 2) were more adavnced in Groovy proper and that since 2012, unbeknowst to even a large portion of niche players from arcade communities for a long time, and persistently so, like I couldn't believe how misunderstood the -lowlatency feature was day-one and forever since.
Calamity says he laughs it off, but for me that'll always leave a slightly bitter aftertaste, even if I know Groovy's the real winner and virtuous build, can't forget it's the uglier one that dominated the era in people's hearts (edit: and it's not even an emulator ffs, just read this thread's title it's heresy period. WHY. USE. EMULATORS. when there's retoarch? Why eh? :o)
Damn most ppl don't even care about standalone emulators, I'd bet the bulk user base's average isn't old enough to remember before RA, for them it's just RA cores this, RA does everything best that, and its users support the monopoly like zombies 'spreading the gospel' everywhere they go.
If there's one area where RA has been overwhelmingly better than Groovy, it's communication, skillfully advertising itself and overshadowing legit great achievements and people of the scene.
--- End quote ---
Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.
I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”
Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.
--- End quote ---
I actually also agree with this, as long as it works, i dont care how its done.
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