Software Support > GroovyMAME

Why use emulators when theres RetroArch?

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schmerzkaufen:

--- Quote from: Trnzaddict on August 29, 2022, 04:53:09 pm ---
Meh, I don’t care if input lag reduction is done right or wrong.

I care more about pressing a button and saying “Wow, just as responsive if not better than my genesis in my den”
--- End quote ---

Yeah that's the problem. It's wrong af and inaccurate, and you don't care, RA's users and heralds, because they don't see understand the problems with it, are a different culture than MAME and Groovy.

It's mindboggling to me that ppl don't care about anything related to accuracy yet praise the quality of a software like RA, which encourages people to use obsolete builds and lossy, incaccurate lag reduction that allows to cheat reality by making games more responsive than the originals.


--- Quote from: Trnzaddict on August 29, 2022, 04:53:09 pm ---Somebody saying that stand alone emulators other than GM offer better input latency than RA is capable of is absolutely mind boggling to me - sorry.

--- End quote ---

I defend Groovy's lag reduction and not randomly 'stand alone emulators' lag reduction on that topic (how many standalones feature lag reduction anyway?). My focus is on what Groovy's best for which is arcades emulation thanks to it's indeed overall more correct video/input/sound lag reduction vs. RA's run-ahead.
Groovy's method gets rid of all the unwanted lag generated by suboptimal sync, input and hardware, not the legit one that's part of the game.



EDIT: something I read once that made me raise an eyebrow, is ppl praising MiSteR over MAME after having basically used RA with many years-old cores and romsets found on archives.org Right, so they praised fresh development vs. very outdated. Well, Captain Obvious and friends ?
"well than sounds logical but why don't you use the up-to-date MAME core for compare?" "it doesnt work with my roms" "savestates dont wonrk with it" etc etc

Other example: RA user dragging Groovy through the mud while they were using again an old-af build; all issues and much more were actually fixed in the at the time current build, but their excuse for not using it ? the up-to-date Groovy build didn't match the old romsets they owned.

Or the heroes who 'beat' a number of longstanding high scores with technically 2 to sometimes maybe 3 frames faster response than even the pcb in a cab, thanks to RA. Yay, what heroes...

I think people just see and hear what they wanna see if that's convenient to them and ---fudgesicle--- reason.
I remember ppl on shmups debating the issue of RA allowing lower lag then the original and the legitimacy of the high scores achieved with that, in short the party defending RA first acted innocent, then admitted they knew it's lower than the real, and proceeded to basically say 'why should it matter, it's better this way', calling the original game's lag 'arbitrary' then making up narratives to try and make defendants of accuracy look like the bad guys.
Alternative thruth is clearly the winner broken logic of this century.

Obsolete emulator builds and lossy-cheaty lag reduction ? harmful to the legit emu dev scene ? smoke and mirrors ? demographics who don't care ? yup that's RA.
Argueably, to make it worse MAME deliberately and stubbornly maintained and even strengthened its position on a policy that didn't please and at times gave finger to the end users base, and they lost massive demographics to RA. And Groovy achieved/finalized its major user-friendly features updates only recently, while that 'war' is technically already over and ppl are now looking up affordable VRR and MiSteR.
But that doesn't absolve RA at all.

Calamity:
Why buy eslewhere when there's Amazon?

schmerzkaufen:
Indeed. And yet, that'd a be valid if we were talking exact same 'products', but with the popularity of cores based off antediluvian builds, and lossy-cheaty lag reduction, it's not a direct comparison.

It's more like they're arguing that Wish.com is the better choice.

EDIT: maybe Wish is too harsh so let's say aliexpress.  :P

Zebidee:
I actually agree with all of you.

But appreciate Schmerz more, for explaining exactly why Groovymame is better. And Calamity again, for caring about what's real.

Yet also appreciate how some people just want to play games. Like, you can play Galaga on a smart phone, or maybe a pregnancy tester (not quite real, but who cares?).

Was thinking, maybe there is some weird logic to running Genesis games on cores based off antediluvian builds?

Unfortunately I don't get amazon.com here.

schmerzkaufen:
I'm not the best person to explain but seriously there's ppl here and other places who in about the past 20 years have scienced the fck out the matter of delay, identifying all possible sources in a lag chain and strive to produce worthy* solutions against it, yet what do people rush on like starved lemmings ?

In place of the right stuff the overwhelmingly popular 'quick and dirty solutions' are disabling all manners of sync at the cost of tearing (inherited from old PC gaming beliefs but completely unnecessary today even when you don't own VRR), and a imitation of an old run-ahead technique that was meant to compensate for high ping at the expense of messing up the game's timing accuracy proper. Oh and hacking into game buffers (shmupmame).

And as for emulation proper, devs and contributors over 20 years in attending to core emulation of tons of systems, still updating and fixing today as we talk ? does it matter ?
 nope, ppl go for the build versions of 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago calling them 'better'.
Go figure. Ah yes, remind us who's responsible for that trend already ?

PS: as for MD idk why ppl bring it to the discussion all the time, right now I am arguing about the worth of what we have for arcades emulation and lag mitigation, expanding to everything else is tempting but that would be a lot of work so I'm limiting my ranting to that. Thought it was necessary to state it again. ;)


* Worthy solutions: practical while not betraying the original emulated game/system's accuracy. meaning valid for the sake of preservation, and not allowing stealth cheating (lower lag than actual real game breaking timings, plus undetectable feature = cheating). frame_delay is valid, VRR is valid, running proper cores off FPGA is valid, but hacking into game's code to disable inner buffers like ShmupMAME did, or running frames ahead like RA and derivates permits, aren't valid solutions. disabling vsync isn't invalid per-se, just completely outdated and un unnecessary pain now.
Guess what? all I've seen these past 10 years or so is that the latter three have been the overwhelming most popular. Sometimes I understand devs that come to hate end users (not always but still ;D) Makes you understand why it was so easy for slimy populists to channel the attention of the bulk towards their snake oil sale.
Anyway for the sake of redundancy :lol this war is already over, im beating a dead horse, a niche of smart ppl will keep using Groovy with or without CRT, or look into VRR and MiSteR.

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