Are some games too fast or am I too old?

[javeryh]

Recently I have been playing a lot of Eyes, Nibbler and especially Pepper II.  All great games but all seem to control a little too fast for my primitive eye-hand coordination.  Anyone else feel this way and is there any reason certain games were designed like this (other than to eat quarters)? 

I swear these three games in particular would be considered all time greats if they were just a hair slower to allow you to plan a little more in advance.  It's a miracle on Pepper II if I can clear an entire stage and many times my character misses a turn or something because my hands aren't fast enough for my brain.

[negative1]

Recently I have been playing a lot of Eyes, Nibbler and especially Pepper II.  All great games but all seem to control a little too fast for my primitive eye-hand coordination.  Anyone else feel this way and is there any reason certain games were designed like this (other than to eat quarters)? 

I swear these three games in particular would be considered all time greats if they were just a hair slower to allow you to plan a little more in advance.  It's a miracle on Pepper II if I can clear an entire stage and many times my character misses a turn or something because my hands aren't fast enough for my brain.

depends on the game and version.

sometimes the actual game might seem faster.

sometimes the emulation could be slower. if you really want to try it slower,
run it in mame, and ajdust the speed to your liking.

other than that. i've gotten better at most games with age, just because practice
is helping.

later
-1

[EvilNuff]

Where are you struggling with Nibbler?  I love that game and it only gets uncontrollably fast around 40-50k points for me.  I have to plan ahead and start joystick movement timed in advance of what is seen on the screen it feels.

[bobbyb13]

Blame it on your joysticks being lame!

Which stick are you using anyway?
It could actually be part of the issue.

[Xiaou2]

If these are 4-Way Joystick games... are you using a 4way that has a diamond restrictor?

 The diamond shape allows the stick to move from one direction to the next,
must faster... as its cutting out any movement towards the outside corners of the stick.

 That alone, could probably give you a quarter of a second shave off of your reaction times.


 As for overall reflexes... they tend to be based on your recent training and usage.  If you have not been
drilling them for some time... then go back to a fast hardcore game... you are likely going to get
your butt handed to you.

 As one ages, certain things do not function quite as well as they used to.   But I do not think the visual
to hand coordination, is slowed enough to be significant.

 That said... I have noticed a persons abilities reaction times dropping drastically, from smoking too much weed.

[Zebidee]

That said... I have noticed a persons abilities reaction times dropping drastically, from smoking too much weed.

Interesting. For regular or long-time users of weed there is no or negligible effect on reaction times or (for example) ability to drive safely. Not that I want my bus driver stoned, just saying.

Noob smokers are in another category altogether! Too busy laughing to hold the wheel.

By comparison, alcohol has a dramatic effect on your reactions regardless of your tolerance.

Bank Panic is a great game for testing your personal reactions in these different scenarios. If I play it while drinking my reactions just get steadily worse, 3-4 beers and I'm done. But the other thing has no effect at all, maybe even helps with the focus.

[Xiaou2]

That said... I have noticed a persons abilities reaction times dropping drastically, from smoking too much weed.

Interesting. For regular or long-time users of weed there is no or negligible effect on reaction times or (for example) ability to drive safely. Not that I want my bus driver stoned, just saying.

Noob smokers are in another category altogether! Too busy laughing to hold the wheel.

By comparison, alcohol has a dramatic effect on your reactions regardless of your tolerance.

Bank Panic is a great game for testing your personal reactions in these different scenarios. If I play it while drinking my reactions just get steadily worse, 3-4 beers and I'm done. But the other thing has no effect at all, maybe even helps with the focus.

 Well, the one dude I used to work with when I was a young kid, was so spaced out... that there was an actual long pause
between when you would ask him a question, and when he would actually respond.  He was doing weed nightly, at the
restaurant we worked at.

 The other dude grew his own.. and also was a daily user.  He was the one that I noticed some delay with.. but I cant
know for 100% certain, if it was the drug.   Spy Hunter is a brutally difficult game... I just noticed that in certain days
he had lightning quick responses... and on others, he was delayed, and kept getting worse and worse in performance.
Far worse than his typical average level performance.

(of course, maybe he also had something to drink those days, that I didnt realize or remember)


 As for Bank Panic... I believe there is a minimum threshold in the timing of the basic responses.  So long as you stay
within that range... its then all down to what you chose to shoot or not-shoot.   IMO, its a decent test.. but.. its not
as intense as something like a game of Robotron... where you are a pixel away from death, like every 3 seconds.

(IE:  "millisecond reactions"  rather than  "1 second"  based reactions)

 I have been around some that went into Paranoid states, that were kind of flipping out.

 My uncle was both a drunk, and a drug user.  While staying at my grandmothers place, he used to have
"Parties" when she stayed the nights over at her BFs house.  One night, at like 3am.. dude was talking to
this female on the couch.  His voice was always way too loud, so I could hear him through the walls.

 She asked him a question, and he spat out this long 2 min response.  Then, she asked the same question
again... and he repeated,  "Word for Word"  the exact same long response.  This happened at least 3 times
in a row... back to back.   I was blown away.. that they both could not recall the last 2min, and went on
a perfectly Looped cycle of questions and answers.


 My overall guess, is that the drug may effect certain peoples brains differently.


 I only tried the stuff once, more recently.  I didnt get to feel much of anything... as I just got so
messed up, that I was either completely unable to move, or was throwing up. Eventually passing out
completely.

 When I have the cash, Ill stick to Long Island's,  instead.  Three of those, and I light up
the dance floor... or I start doing some random  "Drunkin Kung Fu".

[Zebidee]

Fair and valid observations!

Everyone is different of course. I wouldn't be surprised if those people you were talking about were co-abusing other drugs (ludes, oxy, slow, meth etc.) and/or booze. Or maybe just lack of sleep or other parts of their lifestyles (even staying up all night playing computer games will make you a mess the next day).

Almost everytime I hear someone tell me a negative story about being stoned, they were co-abusing another drug. Particularly alcohol. Like, having a few too many drinks and then smoking up. This often leads to spinning heads, nausea, paranoia, even aggressive behaviour (this last one is definitely an alcohol effect).

If one must, then get stoned BEFORE drinking - not the other way around. However what often happens is people have a few drinks, lower their inhibitions and then decide to share a joint      

Of course, some of the weed strains about nowadays are very strong and appropriate care should be taken, even for long-time users.

One of the biggest problems with long-term weed use is lack of motivation. This is more important than it first seems, because it can lead to compounding other life issues until it all ends up as a mess. Regular weed users who also "succeed" at life must be very motivated people indeed.

Some of the stupid ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- people say when stoned is very funny indeed. It can slur your speech a little too.

Not advocating to anyone - make your own choices but be smart and safe.

[gildahl]

This sounds completely normal.  When I visited the arcades in the 70s and 80s I never expected to play a game for more than about 2 minutes--especially anything new.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that 2 minutes play time was something that manufacturers shot for as the desirable not-to-exceed play time for maximum profit.  Naturally, there were great gamers who could smash those limits, but those weren't your average player.  So yeah, games were fast and hard.  I recall going to the arcade with my weekly stash of 4 quarters while my parents were food shopping.  To make my money stretch for 45 minutes, I'd spend most of the time watching over the shoulders of other gamers to learn the game mechanics and strategies of the latest machines.  But invariably, once it was my turn, I rarely came even close to the kinds of almost miraculous reaction times I saw in some of those other gamers.  I still love these old games--and even find my lack of gifted reaction time to be of some benefit because it allows me to still find the games challenging.  But if you really want to improve, try this:  Simply setup your arcade machine to play just one game for, say, a month, and dedicate your time to just that one game.  You just may find it to be a whole new experience.

[Zebidee]

I was quite poor for most of the arcade era. It significantly influenced how I chose and played games.

One way I extended my coins at the arcades was to avoid the Streetfighter-style vs fighting games. They were attractive, but cost a lot more and were over fast. Plus, the richer, older, rougher, noisier and stupider kids played them a lot, and I always found it wise to avoid those.

Instead, I would enjoy a nice long game on something like Elevator Action or Ghosts n Goblins. Or Double Dragon, which gave you both a decent story and game, and as a bonus at the end you get to Vs fight your buddy (for the girl). Something for everyone, and all with one credit

#Tip For improving at games, always (well, 95% of the time) start again from the beginning, instead of continuing. Yeah yeah yeah you might start to be bored with the early parts, but you also learn to be *good*, and not die. You always pass through "bored" on the path to being great at something (I just made that up, but it seems like a good quote). Plus, if you press continue, you'll probably just be dead again in 30 seconds so where is the value for money?

[leapinlew]

This may not be a "or" question, but a "and" question. They are too fast and you're too old. I swear Fast Ms. Pacman got faster from when I was a kid.

[bobbyb13]

Use it or lose it!
At 40 my eyesight went to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and by 45 I could tell I was getting slower and weaker.

I'll blame it on not getting to surf and/or play games enough.

 

[negative1]

play smarter, not harder.

thanks to savestates, youtube playthroughs, and faqs, you should be able to crush
most games, or improve.

i've beaten all my old 80's scores. latest centipede score last week, 999,999.
i could barely break 100k in the 80's, now learning the strategies (blob strategy, or filling up the screen),
it doesn't matter how fast it gets. i can play it much better.

i still have to work on my missile command timing, and also major havoc, and maybe gravitar, and asteroids.
its just a matter of putting in the time.

later
-1

[Zebidee]

  For me it is a moot point as I rarely have time to play games anyway. Too busy 

[Gilrock]

You guys actually play the games?  I thought we just built them....haha.

[Mike A]

I play games everyday.

[Xiaou2]

In fact, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that 2 minutes play time was something that manufacturers shot for as the desirable not-to-exceed play time for maximum profit.

 To appease arcade operators complaints.. they aimed to ramp up the difficulty around that 2min mark, so that playtime
was reduced for new, and casual players.  That said... they tended to be very fair about it, in most games.

 They almost always start out the game fairly easy, allowing the player to get used to the game, and feel good about it.
After that, the difficulty tends to jump fairly dramatically.  Either you learn and develop the skills to keep going.. or that
is the extent of how far you got.

 Games like Sega's  "Turbo", and even Spy Hunter... basically gave you infinite lives... until the timer ran out.  After that,
the player was easily taken out, unless they had developed some pretty high level skills.


 I wasnt that good at most of the classic 80s games, as I was quite young at the time.  I used to play Sega's Turbo the most,
because of the infinite lives / timer.  This actually caused me to be able to develop some real skills in that game... where as with
most games.. I wouldnt last even half as long,  so didnt get much practice.  As a result... I believe I got to the 3rd or 4th
Extended-Play round... which was no small feat for such a young kid  (If I had to guess, maybe I was 9yrs old at that time).

 The other game I played a lot, was Bump and Jump.  I wasnt nearly as good... but I could last a pretty decent amount of
time on that machine.

 Back then, I hated Robotron.  I played it once... and all of my lives were gone, in like less than 50 seconds.  However, as
an adult.. I found a machine, and got hooked on it.  Its now one of my top favorite games.

 That said, there were many other very difficult games that kicked the crud out of me.. but I still loved and played them.
Such as Sinistar, Satans Hollow, Tron, Journey, Spy Hunter, Rock n Rope, Jungle Hunt, Congo Bongo, Haley's Comet,
Super Zaxxon, and countless others.

 Eventually making it to stage 2 in  Rock n Rope,  and  Congo Bongo,  was an awesome feeling of accomplishment,
for young me.

[gildahl]

This may not be a "or" question, but a "and" question. They are too fast and you're too old. I swear Fast Ms. Pacman got faster from when I was a kid.

Yeah, I'd say my objective these days is to play, not to get better, but to not get worse.  If I can continue hitting my old high scores, or somewhere in the neighborhood, I consider that a good day. 

[javeryh]

I play games everyday.

Me too.  Or just about every day.  I'm not getting any better but I'm having fun.

[negative1]

got the arcade 1up centipede a couple a weeks, i'm rusty, but
have topped the leaderboards for 8/14 games
---
centipede 999,999
millipede 380k
major havoc 950k
super breakout 1200
gravitar 80k
crystal castles 400k
liberator 120k
akka arrh 130k

got the joust machine
--
got 1.2 million yesterday





getting the dig dug cabinet next,
hope to top pac-man, pac-man plus, galaga, dig dug, dig dug 2, and more....

later
-1

[Phreakwars]

I used to play Ms. Pacman with hot pursuit button all the time back in the arcades. That game is even faster then the regular sped up version.



Now I can barely keep up. I watch my son play it, and he is way better than I EVER WAS. He can play that game with his hand on the hot pursuit button the entire time and never miss a turn. Don't know how the hell he does it, just boggles the mind. But yeah, he knows he is better than me, so I always pull the "I'M JUST GETTING OLD" line to comfort myself.

[leapinlew]

I used to play fast Ms. Pac-man all the time when I was a kid. I never had an issue with it, or missing turns, or whatever. I will miss turns more frequently now when I play at home with a 4 way WICO leaf with little use. It was NOS a few years ago and it's still a pretty tight joystick.

I just played Ms. Pac-Man at a barcade and it had a happ anniversary stick in it. I had no issues with that stick, which was also well broke in, and felt easy to play the way I used to play when I was a kid.

So.... the hardware definitely has to be factored in.

[csnow]

i've beaten all my old 80's scores. latest centipede score last week, 999,999.

That is an impressive score especially on a 1up Arcade with microswitch buttons.  You would be insane with a true leaf switch fire button.

[negative1]

maxed out dig dug, at 999,990 and quit with 15 men left.

this is the fast namco ROM, so no slow boards after level 114 or so.



this is an easy game, that repeats 4 levels. from 12-31, then gets faster on level 32 to 256 (killscreen)

later
-1

[RandyT]

I just played Ms. Pac-Man at a barcade and it had a happ anniversary stick in it. I had no issues with that stick, which was also well broke in, and felt easy to play the way I used to play when I was a kid.

*off topic*

Probably the biggest comment I hear about the anniversary stick, which is a very well-built stick and also happens to be the foundation for our Pac-Pro Leaf stick, is that it feels stiff.  Springs need to be worked to soften them up, but for a real commercial stick, manufacturers naturally select a stronger spring when new, so that in a few weeks of use, it won't feel "floppy".  For those who don't want to deal with breaking it in, proper use of a vice and a propane torch can perform wonders in adjusting spring tension.

*on topic*

You are too old.  It's proven that the older one is, the more one's perception of time changes.  According to this from Harvard, it's likely due to growing more complex neural networks over the course of your life, leading to longer pathways and more time spent processing data in your brain.  IOW, you probably had a lot of important $#!+ to think about in your life which added complex biological "code" to your natural processes, so your "framerate" isn't what it used to be.

Like anything, you can adjust with way more practice and effort than it took in your youth, but it will catch up with you.  Don't sweat it.  Just have fun playing the games and leave the e-peen measuring to others who are younger and/or have the time for such things 

[pbj]

I've found that going back to some console games that confounded me as a kid has been a much easier experience as a grizzled jackass.  Maybe I've seen it all or something, but the patterns are much easier to recognize on some of them.  There's also a lot of cheesy BS to make games artificially hard that we can cut through with a Game Genie so I can move on with life.

 

[RandyT]

Maybe I've seen it all or something, but the patterns are much easier to recognize on some of them.

I'd say that you were on the money with that assessment.  There are only so many ways to skin a cat and once you have skinned a few dozen it becomes second nature (metaphorically...don't skin cats)

[Xiaou2]

I used to play fast Ms. Pac-man all the time when I was a kid. I never had an issue with it, or missing turns, or whatever. I will miss turns more frequently now when I play at home with a 4 way WICO leaf with little use. It was NOS a few years ago and it's still a pretty tight joystick.

I just played Ms. Pac-Man at a barcade and it had a happ anniversary stick in it. I had no issues with that stick, which was also well broke in, and felt easy to play the way I used to play when I was a kid.

So.... the hardware definitely has to be factored in.

 The original machines used a 4-way stick assembly, which is very different from the Wico.
Big Metal beast, with a rounded ball actuator, and a Short Ball-Top stick.

 Not sure how different the Diamond shape is between the two... but Id bet that the much shorter
balltop, is one of the main reasons for faster reaction times.

 Longer hand movement Distances = Longer reaction times.

[negative1]

some more maxouts or near ones:

nearly maxed out galaga on practice mode 999,740



nearly maxed dig dug needed a little more dirt 999,960





maxed out pac-man at 999,990





later

-1

[javeryh]

OK now I think I'm just bad at games.

[LTC]

OK now I think I'm just bad at games.

Same. Those scores look unreachable to me.

Best I can do is a full Black Tiger run through without losing a life on pretty consistent basis.

[leapinlew]

Like -1 said, it's a matter of having enough time. So many options available nowadays. Most games you can really ramp up your scores. Of course there are some exceptions. I can't do great in Defender it seems. No matter how much time I put in it.

[EvilNuff]

...Best I can do is a full Black Tiger run through without losing a life on pretty consistent basis.

That's pretty good though, Black Tiger is a hard game.

[csnow]

The scores are impressive but the LCD image not so much.  Where I find age limiting my game play is with modern FPS games.  I am 52 so I was in my late 20's and early 30's when FPS became popular.  I don't even bother playing online anymore because I just get roasted these days.  I have lost signifigant msec response times which just makes online play brutal.  I wish the XBOX Live and PS Network algorithims would look at kill to death ratios and put like skillled players into the same games.  As it stands, the frustration is higher than the enjoyment these days.

[RandyT]

I wish the XBOX Live and PS Network algorithims would look at kill to death ratios and put like skillled players into the same games.  As it stands, the frustration is higher than the enjoyment these days.

They did that for a while.  The problems with that system are that if you are in a party with someone much better than you are, you still end up in hell.  The other problem is the d-bags who reverse-boost by just standing around getting killed to lower their K/D so that when they finally do feel like playing, they end up in lower-skilled lobbies and commence to slaughtering everyone.  Add to that the sophistication of hacks using packet sniffers on PCs for seeing through walls and the application of AI for targeting, and it ends up being a recipe for the death of a genre.  It was fun while it lasted.

[csnow]

It was fun while it lasted.

It was for sure.  Being a Star Wars fan growing up, my favorite FPS is Star Wars Battle Front which has a decent enought single player with bots that I enjoy solo.

[pbj]

Battlefront 2 cost me like $5 on ps4 and has a decent solo campaign.

The first one had a good psvr mission.

Still need to finish up Rogue Squadron or whatever the VR one was.

Ginger Jedi still taunts me.

Been some good Star Wars games lately, to be honest.

[negative1]

ms pac man 280k, 1st on leaderboard


first on galaga 999k, leaderboards






been play ms pac man, got 280k, and working on turbo, should be able to hit the killscreen soon enough.

later
-1

[RandyT]

Being a Star Wars fan growing up, my favorite FPS is Star Wars Battle Front which has a decent enought single player with bots that I enjoy solo.

The bot AI is getting to the point to where there isn't that much difference between them and human controlled opponents.  They still do some dumb things at times which can be taken advantage of, but I don't think it will be too much longer before you can't tell the difference.  I can see the genre transitioning at some point to more developed campaigns, and multi-player with more emphasis on co-op against AI opponents.  If someone is cheating in the party, it won't be as game-breaking or it'll be self-correcting.

[Scotty]

I have a pair of Dominux 8 sticks from Randy at Groovy Game Gear, and LOVE them.   Worth every penny.   Is a direct drop-in replacement for an X-arcade stick.   No modifications needed.   I also have a custom panel I built with a pair of Ultimarc Ultimate 360 sticks.   These also are phenomenal.  I am old (55) and grew up with leaf spring buttons and sticks.  I never really got into the fighting games.  I would play Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter, but they did not have the addictiveness like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong did.    Both the sticks mentioned above do not have that clicky sound/feel of a micro switch stick.  One advantage of the Ultimate 360, is you can do 4-way, 8-way, 2-way (is this really even needed?) Diagonal (Q*Bert, Congo Bongo) and true Analog very easily via software (PC only, so will not be able to switch on Mac, Raspberry Pi, MISTer etc...).  Both sticks are highly recommended.  Pricey?  Yes, but worth the money.

PS, Hey Randy!!  I just got a Tron stick (with you still sold them), and will be ordering a trigger from you soon.

[RandyT]

PS, Hey Randy!!  I just got a Tron stick (with you still sold them), and will be ordering a trigger from you soon.

Glad to hear that you are enjoying the Dominux sticks.  We'll still be offering the TRON switches for a while, so whenever you are ready.

[negative1]

Millipede - easy settings 377k - never got this far back in the day,
but several years ago could hit a million:



also got 368 on default




later
-1

[RandyT]

When I was about 16 years old, Atari had a contest for a high score on centipede.  I played and played that game (although I admit that was using a WICO on a home-built panel even at that time) to get good at it.  Eventually, I had gotten so good at the game, I had to stop playing so I could photograph the score before it rolled back to zero.  Lousy Atari never even responded to my entry and I'm not sure if they ever even paid out to any winners.

I'm here to say that I probably couldn't get close to that today.  Maybe due to age, but more likely is that after a point it would just be a huge effort and grind with no tangible reward at the end of it.  At least in the arcade you got to try to think up 3-letter cuss words to put in the high scores for other players to see.

So that leads me to a question:  To the old coots who are still playing for the sake of trying to beat your personal high scores, what exactly motivates you in that direction today and how do you find the time to devote to it?  I would find the answers to this one far more interesting.

[leapinlew]

Was this the contest? https://www.ebay.com/itm/384951909415

[RandyT]

That's the one.  I was very excited because I had what I believed was the highest possible score.  I get the feeling that there were tons of people who did the same, because after all, if I could do it ....

But there was no internet in those days so if anything was ever awarded, I didn't hear a thing about it.

[negative1]

i like the challenge of beating my scores, and placing on the leaderboards.

super breakout is brutal after just a few minutes:

​
super break out 2029 - 2nd place - progressive - 5men 


 



have 1404 on 3 men default - first place

 




later

-1

​

[csnow]

Battlefront 2 cost me like $5 on ps4 and has a decent solo campaign.

The first one had a good psvr mission.

Still need to finish up Rogue Squadron or whatever the VR one was.

Ginger Jedi still taunts me.

Been some good Star Wars games lately, to be honest.

I just started playing Battlefront II on the original XBOX.  Graphics aside, that is a really good game.  I wasn't gaming much due to life/work/family in my mid 30s around 2004/2005 so I missed many of the late games on the PS2 and XBOX.  There are some real gems in that era.

[negative1]

I used to play fast Ms. Pac-man all the time when I was a kid. I never had an issue with it, or missing turns, or whatever. I will miss turns more frequently now when I play at home with a 4 way WICO leaf with little use. It was NOS a few years ago and it's still a pretty tight joystick.

I just played Ms. Pac-Man at a barcade and it had a happ anniversary stick in it. I had no issues with that stick, which was also well broke in, and felt easy to play the way I used to play when I was a kid.

So.... the hardware definitely has to be factored in.

working on ms pac man turbo, with class of 81 from arcade 1up, some tiny problems with turns but still
hit 745k (trying to get to the killscreen).



went through a ghost at 589k
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VPnWiPEuU7I

[negative1]

ms pac man turbo - perfect ghost eating - high level grouping strategy - got to 500k
played greedy, died early before getting to killscreen



later
-1

[tommyinajar]

 It depends, my reflexes are about the same. I am at the same lame level I can't get past, same as the  80's.



  As for today's kids, my buddies' kids were way into xbox when it came out. Up 2 hours before school to play into it.

 They were going nuts with 10 button and 3 sticks, and I told them we only had 1 stick and one button, and that was sometimes. -


They laughed.

Short while later, I fired up Donkey Kong for the 15-button combo xbox kids....  It took them an hour to get to the second level... 

[RandyT]

Short while later, I fired up Donkey Kong for the 15-button combo xbox kids....  It took them an hour to get to the second level... 

Heh.   That's a good point.  Saw the same with the son of a buddy of mine.  He could probably get into lower tier e-sports with call of duty games, but the oldies kicked his butt.  He got frustrated and quit

[KenToad]

My 11 year old son loves video games, but he will not play old or even new arcade games unless there's a crowd of interested people. To be fair, the arcade games were designed to kill you in 2-3 minutes and that's 2-3 minutes he could have spent pretending to be a super soldier.

People are bad at arcade games because they don't have the time or desire to get good. Only a small percentage of people lack the dexterity because of age or whatever.

[RandyT]

My 11 year old son loves video games, but he will not play old or even new arcade games unless there's a crowd of interested people. To be fair, the arcade games were designed to kill you in 2-3 minutes and that's 2-3 minutes he could have spent pretending to be a super soldier.

People are bad at arcade games because they don't have the time or desire to get good. Only a small percentage of people lack the dexterity because of age or whatever.

I'll go along with that.  It's true that nothing makes you play better than people standing behind you who have their quarters on the machine

[negative1]

My 11 year old son loves video games, but he will not play old or even new arcade games unless there's a crowd of interested people. To be fair, the arcade games were designed to kill you in 2-3 minutes and that's 2-3 minutes he could have spent pretending to be a super soldier.

People are bad at arcade games because they don't have the time or desire to get good. Only a small percentage of people lack the dexterity because of age or whatever.

I'll go along with that.  It's true that nothing makes you play better than people standing behind you who have their quarters on the machine

i disagree completely.

i don't want anyone watching in person, i don't care if there's a crowd or not.

it's me vs the machine, that's all that matters.

10 or 100 people wouldn't make any difference at all.

i don't want people distracting me, or making noise. in fact, i'm pretty sure i had my walkman on,
so i couldn't hear anyone either when playing in the arcades.

later
-1

[RandyT]

it's me vs the machine, that's all that matters.

I'm sure it's a personal thing and can see how performance anxiety/distractions could get in the way.  But there's no greater unspoken compliment in the arcade than someone taking their quarter back off the machine when they realize that they'll be waiting longer than they thought. 

It's also different on your own machine as you can play it as often as you like without needing to give it up after a game.  Wasn't like that in the old days.  The better you played, the longer that machine was yours, and I did my darndest to hang onto it as long as I could

[tommyinajar]

 I don't think kids play any less passionatly, but the games and how they are made to be played are very different.

 I mean there are amost no ahooters that technicaly arn't "spray and pray".

Kids WILL NOT play a game where they only have 3 lives or no continues.

  The Hi-score is a thing of the past, also the sheer numbers of games that are availible....no chance to get good at a few.

And above all you HAD to get good- or go broke $0.25 at a time.

[negative1]

After several weeks, hundreds of restarts, and several hours, finally got Ms Pac Man Turbo Record - 999,990 - stopped before a million. Settings - Turbo, 5 men, NO KILLSCREEN - Namco patched fixed it. (usually around level 144).








later
-1

[Warborg]

Recently I have been playing a lot of Eyes, Nibbler and especially Pepper II.  All great games but all seem to control a little too fast for my primitive eye-hand coordination.  Anyone else feel this way and is there any reason certain games were designed like this (other than to eat quarters)? 

I swear these three games in particular would be considered all time greats if they were just a hair slower to allow you to plan a little more in advance.  It's a miracle on Pepper II if I can clear an entire stage and many times my character misses a turn or something because my hands aren't fast enough for my brain.

I've asked myself that question a lot...  In my case, I used to be pretty good at FPS games and could usually keep up online in deathmatches and stuff.  Now days, I feel like I struggle a lot more than I used to so that I'm even a little competitive.  I kind of think it's a bit of both, but at the same time I also don't play as much as I used to (aforementioned age along with this stupid "adulting" I have to do now) so maybe throw in some "out of practice" on top of it?  My hand/eye coordination still seems pretty good, I just think my "processor" is a little slower these days so I don't respond to things as quickly as I used to.  Then again, maybe the kids are now just better these days and I suck in comparison?   

[bobbyb13]

The more I play various games (in MAME , fpga, and also original boardsets) and the more I build, and the more I get obsessed with authentic controls, the more I discover that a HUGE part of success playing any of these beloved games is actually the latter-

Truly authentic controls for each individual game make such a remarkable difference in gameplay that it is astounding.

One can get used to anything given time of course, but I have found the shortest path to playing anything well and enjoyably is by being able to use exactly what the game was designed for initially.

There is no substitute for real leaf buttons if that was oem.
Full stop.

If it had Wico 8 way leaf sticks in the original then a microswitch unit simply will not satisfy.

The ONLY exception I have seen to this is with spinners and trackballs, where the work of fine gents like KenToad have made it such that you can tune a new replacement part to very reasonably (if not exactly in some instances) mimic an original part- in performance at least.

Hard to mimic the whir and physical air resistance of an old Tempest spinner or sheer mass of a Missile Command ball with anything but the original or a 1:1 reproduction.

[leapinlew]

The more I play various games (in MAME , fpga, and also original boardsets) and the more I build, and the more I get obsessed with authentic controls, the more I discover that a HUGE part of success playing any of these beloved games is actually the latter-

Truly authentic controls for each individual game make such a remarkable difference in gameplay that it is astounding.

One can get used to anything given time of course, but I have found the shortest path to playing anything well and enjoyably is by being able to use exactly what the game was designed for initially.

There is no substitute for real leaf buttons if that was oem.
Full stop.

If it had Wico 8 way leaf sticks in the original then a microswitch unit simply will not satisfy.

The ONLY exception I have seen to this is with spinners and trackballs, where the work of fine gents like KenToad have made it such that you can tune a new replacement part to very reasonably (if not exactly in some instances) mimic an original part- in performance at least.

Hard to mimic the whir and physical air resistance of an old Tempest spinner or sheer mass of a Missile Command ball with anything but the original or a 1:1 reproduction.

It definitely depends from game to game. I'd argue Galaga works fine with almost any joystick and buttons. I have a special compiled version of Mame that allows me to play Gyruss, Time Pilot with a spinner and those games are much more manageable with a spinner.

Defender - must have leaf buttons. Qbert has to have angled joystick. It's subjective to the game.

I've seen people struggle with Ms. Pacman and an 8 way joystick, but it sure didn't seem to impact their enjoyment. They just didn't care and I guess they assumed it was their lack of skill.

But for the most part, I'm with you Bobby.

[Zebidee]

I've seen people struggle with Ms. Pacman and an 8 way joystick, but it sure didn't seem to impact their enjoyment. They just didn't care and I guess they assumed it was their lack of skill.

This may be why I never got into Pacman/Ms Pacman as a kid - boards shoved into generic cabs with an 8-way joystick, meh.

[negative1]

The more I play various games (in MAME , fpga, and also original boardsets) and the more I build, and the more I get obsessed with authentic controls, the more I discover that a HUGE part of success playing any of these beloved games is actually the latter-

Truly authentic controls for each individual game make such a remarkable difference in gameplay that it is astounding.

One can get used to anything given time of course, but I have found the shortest path to playing anything well and enjoyably is by being able to use exactly what the game was designed for initially.

There is no substitute for real leaf buttons if that was oem.
Full stop.

If it had Wico 8 way leaf sticks in the original then a microswitch unit simply will not satisfy.

The ONLY exception I have seen to this is with spinners and trackballs, where the work of fine gents like KenToad have made it such that you can tune a new replacement part to very reasonably (if not exactly in some instances) mimic an original part- in performance at least.

Hard to mimic the whir and physical air resistance of an old Tempest spinner or sheer mass of a Missile Command ball with anything but the original or a 1:1 reproduction.

nope.

for me, its the opposite.

back in the day, all the machines were pounded on, broken joysticks, not maintained, and controls barely worked unless it was a brand new machine.

even nowadays in barcades, arcades etc. unless THEY really go out of their way to maintain controls, it makes no difference to casual players.

---
i use 8 way joystick for pac-man - can still hit the killscreen

i use lesser brands for galaga, joust etc - still get to a million and beyond.

i use 3rd party trackballs and spinners - still able to get to a million in centipede, and 200-300k on tempest.

in other words, original controls are not the best, and in most cases make no difference all to the vast majority of players
unless you are an expert.

Defender - must have leaf buttons. Qbert has to have angled joystick. It's subjective to the game.

I've seen people struggle with Ms. Pacman and an 8 way joystick, but it sure didn't seem to impact their enjoyment. They just didn't care and I guess they assumed it was their lack of skill.

But for the most part, I'm with you Bobby.

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

--
even marble madness 2 which i'm playing now uses a joystick instead of a trackball,
and its still very playable. (although i haven't finished it yet, although many others have).

just depends on how much time you spend on it.

later
-1

[leapinlew]

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

--
even marble madness 2 which i'm playing now uses a joystick instead of a trackball,
and its still very playable. (although i haven't finished it yet, although many others have).

For Defender, I was specifically referring to leafswitch buttons, not joystick. And Marble Madness 2 was designed for a joystick, so....

Understood that people can adapt. I'm sure people are scoring high scores playing paperboy with a joystick on the Arcade1up's, but I would hope we would all agree that the original controls enhance the game. For some people "enhancing the game" means high scores, but a high score isn't the only metric to be used. The original sentiment of the thread is that for many folks, the original controls are best because the game was designed with them in mind. I don't think that you can argue against that. Basically, using different controls will most likely equal different results.

My example specifically stated that it was easier to use alternate controls, therefore, getting a high score isn't a good way to determine if it helps or hurts the game.

[Zebidee]

i use 8 way joystick for pac-man - can still hit the killscreen

Defender - must have leaf buttons. Qbert has to have angled joystick. It's subjective to the game.

I've seen people struggle with Ms. Pacman and an 8 way joystick, but it sure didn't seem to impact their enjoyment. They just didn't care and I guess they assumed it was their lack of skill.

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

I used to play Defender with a keyboard and was deadly at it (PC version of course, in olden days before mame).

More important IMO for all these games is dedicated single-player controls. No two or four-player panels, like most of our first mame cabs. You want the joystick (whatever it is) right in front of you, and you right in front of the screen. Especially for the 4-way games on an 8-way. Otherwise it is too easy to mix up right with right-up, and so forth.

A while back I restored/rebuilt a 20" vertical cab with a single 8-way joystick and a couple of buttons. Threw in a 60-in-one PCB. Loved it for all those classic games, was the best for Galaga. Emulation wasn't perfect but the controls were. Still, Ladybug was challenging, is a fun 4-way game and you have to get the turns perfectly like in Pacman. I still suck at both.

I'm going to build another little 20" vertical cab soon, and it will have just one joystick. Watch this space...

[negative1]

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

--
even marble madness 2 which i'm playing now uses a joystick instead of a trackball,
and its still very playable. (although i haven't finished it yet, although many others have).

For Defender, I was specifically referring to leafswitch buttons, not joystick. And Marble Madness 2 was designed for a joystick, so....

Understood that people can adapt. I'm sure people are scoring high scores playing paperboy with a joystick on the Arcade1up's, but I would hope we would all agree that the original controls enhance the game. For some people "enhancing the game" means high scores, but a high score isn't the only metric to be used. The original sentiment of the thread is that for many folks, the original controls are best because the game was designed with them in mind. I don't think that you can argue against that. Basically, using different controls will most likely equal different results.

My example specifically stated that it was easier to use alternate controls, therefore, getting a high score isn't a good way to determine if it helps or hurts the game.

i don't really care what type of buttons are being used, still doesn't make a difference for me.

as far as high scores go, what else is there.

if you really don't care, then there's no point in playing, might as well randomly hit buttons,
and throw your quarter down the drain.

also, if you don't care about scores, the controls don't matter either.

later
-1

[negative1]

i use 8 way joystick for pac-man - can still hit the killscreen

Defender - must have leaf buttons. Qbert has to have angled joystick. It's subjective to the game.

I've seen people struggle with Ms. Pacman and an 8 way joystick, but it sure didn't seem to impact their enjoyment. They just didn't care and I guess they assumed it was their lack of skill.

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

I used to play Defender with a keyboard and was deadly at it (PC version of course, in olden days before mame).

More important IMO for all these games is dedicated single-player controls. No two or four-player panels, like most of our first mame cabs. You want the joystick (whatever it is) right in front of you, and you right in front of the screen. Especially for the 4-way games on an 8-way. Otherwise it is too easy to mix up right with right-up, and so forth.

A while back I restored/rebuilt a 20" vertical cab with a single 8-way joystick and a couple of buttons. Threw in a 60-in-one PCB. Loved it for all those classic games, was the best for Galaga. Emulation wasn't perfect but the controls were. Still, Ladybug was challenging, is a fun 4-way game and you have to get the turns perfectly like in Pacman. I still suck at both.

I'm going to build another little 20" vertical cab soon, and it will have just one joystick. Watch this space...

i only play single player games, so multiple controls don't impact me at all.

later
-1

[Zebidee]

i only play single player games, so multiple controls don't impact me at all.

On a single-player control panel? Then we have found something we definitely agree upon \o/

[RandyT]

Most people don't devote their lives to achieving high-scores and just want to play games as true to the originals as is currently possible.  In that sense, poor controls just make the games more difficult (even than they were in the arcades) and generally less enjoyable to play.

IMHO, if you are playing an old-school, rapid-fire game like Defender or digital pinball with anything on your buttons but true leaf-switches, then you are doing it wrong

[leapinlew]

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

--
even marble madness 2 which i'm playing now uses a joystick instead of a trackball,
and its still very playable. (although i haven't finished it yet, although many others have).

For Defender, I was specifically referring to leafswitch buttons, not joystick. And Marble Madness 2 was designed for a joystick, so....

Understood that people can adapt. I'm sure people are scoring high scores playing paperboy with a joystick on the Arcade1up's, but I would hope we would all agree that the original controls enhance the game. For some people "enhancing the game" means high scores, but a high score isn't the only metric to be used. The original sentiment of the thread is that for many folks, the original controls are best because the game was designed with them in mind. I don't think that you can argue against that. Basically, using different controls will most likely equal different results.

My example specifically stated that it was easier to use alternate controls, therefore, getting a high score isn't a good way to determine if it helps or hurts the game.

i don't really care what type of buttons are being used, still doesn't make a difference for me.

as far as high scores go, what else is there.

if you really don't care, then there's no point in playing, might as well randomly hit buttons,
and throw your quarter down the drain.

also, if you don't care about scores, the controls don't matter either.

later
-1

Getting further in the game? Completing the game quickly? Enjoying the experience? It's not just score. Sheesh. I can flip Galaga, and I do very well at lots of other games, so it's not like I'm not able to achieve high score. I'm just not foolish enough to say the controls don't matter.

[negative1]

i can hit 200k on defender with a 4 way joystick, don't need the original.
qbert, just use an 8 way - still hit a million

you don't need the originals to play well, just need enough knowlege of the
levels and enemy behaviour.

--
even marble madness 2 which i'm playing now uses a joystick instead of a trackball,
and its still very playable. (although i haven't finished it yet, although many others have).

For Defender, I was specifically referring to leafswitch buttons, not joystick. And Marble Madness 2 was designed for a joystick, so....

Understood that people can adapt. I'm sure people are scoring high scores playing paperboy with a joystick on the Arcade1up's, but I would hope we would all agree that the original controls enhance the game. For some people "enhancing the game" means high scores, but a high score isn't the only metric to be used. The original sentiment of the thread is that for many folks, the original controls are best because the game was designed with them in mind. I don't think that you can argue against that. Basically, using different controls will most likely equal different results.

My example specifically stated that it was easier to use alternate controls, therefore, getting a high score isn't a good way to determine if it helps or hurts the game.

i don't really care what type of buttons are being used, still doesn't make a difference for me.

as far as high scores go, what else is there.

if you really don't care, then there's no point in playing, might as well randomly hit buttons,
and throw your quarter down the drain.

also, if you don't care about scores, the controls don't matter either.

later
-1

Getting further in the game? Completing the game quickly? Enjoying the experience? It's not just score. Sheesh. I can flip Galaga, and I do very well at lots of other games, so it's not like I'm not able to achieve high score. I'm just not foolish enough to say the controls don't matter.

true. some games are time based and speed. (marble madness)
some are about getting to the end (dragons lair)

some are about just enjoying the premise.

but the vast majority have scores tied to the gameplay.

and anything that has a leaderboard, are definitely about the scores.
if it didn't matter, they wouldn't let you enter initials or name.

the earliest ones (space invaders, pac man, ms pac man), would only
record the highest score, but no name. so people would definitely be chasing scores on them.

again, for the vast majority of casual players, if the game is hard or the controls are bad, it would make NO difference
since they're only the machine for a few minutes.

i was watching people struggle to play marble madness in a barcade a few years ago.
they just couldn't understand the faster you rolled the trackball, the faster you went.
so people could only get to the 2nd level.

i've mastered the game, so made it to the end. of course i was furiously rolling the trackball,
and people were watching and making comments, like oh that looks hard. well, its supposed to be hard.
only people that played (or wasted) tons of money would get that.

even if the trackballs weren't working, they still wouldn't have made any progress on it.
but i can recognize when things don't work or out of sync, and can adjust.

later
-1

[Xiaou2]

Negative 1,

 What you described is simply  "Lazy"  individuals.  They didnt want to roll the ball faster, because that would be "Work".
And... considering that the last +15 yrs of the majority of popular games have been made to be BABY-LEVEL EASY...
most people are not used to even being Challenged.   Its the Snowflake Generation, these days, as a Result.

 You are Partially correct.. that a person whom is extremely skilled, dedicated, and motivated... can and will attain
success in a game,  even with poor / broken controls.   Just like some famous guitarists, learned to play a busted
up guitar, that was missing a string, and was not able to be fully tuned properly.

 That said... the MAJORITY of people, are not Eddie Van Halen... not matter how much efforts we put into what we love.

 There was a dude that was flown over NYC  "ONCE"   and he was able to draw the entire city, with accuracy, on a giant
mural.  He had mental issues, and wasnt social.  But he had a level of skill and ability, that others will never be able to
duplicate... even with 1000 yrs of efforts.

 I met a dude that was similar, in my martial arts days.  His name was Jeff.  He had learned about 7 different martial
arts systems, and was 100% Flawless, in the LIVE Sparring execution, all of them.  He could go from JKD, to
Shaolin Longfist, then to a Chi-Na grapple... one to the other, effortlessly, and made all of it work perfectly, as was
designed.

 He was also a Sick breakdancer,  was crazy good at the Bongos,  and he was a masterclass level Airbrush artists,
able to paint pictures with photorealism.  He could have easily have been one of the top level Hollywood
Prop makers... had he not been super Religious.

 He said that he former teacher called him, the KungFu Sponge... because he would would learn and replicate things
so quickly.

 One day I had bought a Chinese Manuscript on one of the Kung Fu styles, just for the novelty of it.  It was written in
only Chinese... but had a lot of hand drawn pictures, with little arrows to show the movement directions.  Even as
good as an artists as I was... I could not really make out everything they were trying to depict...

 Well, I brought the book to show Jeff.  He flipped through the pages, and started to replicate the instructions.  In
about 8 min or less.. he had fully learned this new form,  and he performed it, as if he had been practicing for
a decade.  It was Insane.

 Trying to spar with him, was brutal and futile.  In a 45 min session.. I probably managed to Graze him twice.  Both
times... he made me pay Dearly for it,  with heavy counterstrikes, that blasted me through the air, crashing to the
mat.   He knew virtually everything I did, and a LOT more.  But even if he hadnt... his execution was flawless.. where
mine was still progressing towards masterclass levels.

 The one thing Jeff wasnt so good with, was trying to teach.  I tried to get him to teach more some things... and when
I would do something incorrect.. he would say so,  but he could not explain what was wrong, or why.  He just
knew that the result wasnt right.   So in this case, he seemed to be a fantastic replicator... but... he seemed to lack
a certain level of conscious depth of understanding / awareness.   It seems people like him, almost always
operate on a mostly subconscious level.

 Anyways... It seems like you are similar to Jeff.  Able to pick up something fairly quickly, and attain an excellent
result, within a fairly short amount of time.


 That said... If I gave you a real Leafswitch, and challenged you today... with a game of Haleys Comet... I can assure
you that your scores with the Leaf,  and with a standard Microswitch,  would be Vastly different.

 Haleys Commit is one of the rare games that gives you a lot of powerups, based on your continued high fire rate.
In the fist 2min, you could miss about 70% of the potential powerups, if you are not firing fast enough.  The game
will reward you greatly for your fire-rate and skills... and will punish you, for your lackings.

 The problem with Micros, is the level of the switches spring tension resistance, to activate it.  Its not bad for the
occasional fire.  But to try to maintain a constant stream of fire at high rate?  Its way too fatiguing.  Your fingers
and hand will be so cramped and tired, that you will want to give up.

 Where as a leaf switch, is just two thin metal pieces.. that you can literally vibrate between being open and closed,
with virtually no pressure or effort, at all.  You could continually "Feather" the button for an hour, at MAX speed,
without getting any fatigue.

 Even the modern low-pressure micros, and modern leaf buttons, cant compare to the original leafswitch... because
they both "Bottom Out".  When you bottom out, you are suffering resistance and get impact fatigue.  Where as
an original leafswitch.. you find the activation spot.. and lightly bounce / vibrate the thing... without ever bottoming
out the button.  Like lightly bouncing on a very flexible diving board, squeaky loose floorboard, or light spring pressure
trampoline.

 There are also other controllers, that will also give you far more advantages in performance potentials.

 Just like anything.. sure... you can still manage to get decent with poor equipment.  But with the best
equipment... you can do so much better... with far less effort and fatigue.

[Xiaou2]

And for the record...

 I personally have never cared about my scores.   I grew up playing in the 80s arcades, so I got
to play most all of the well known classics.

 Back then, I wasnt that good, as I often just tall enough to see over the control panels.
But I used to enjoy all of these games, despite their brutal challenge.

 One of the few games that I actually got good at, was Sega's  "Turbo".   I believe I once got to
the 3rd or 4th  Extended Play round.   To me, it was merely about how far I could get,
and the fun in doing so.

 Back then, I swear I only beat the first level of Congo Bongo, twice.  To me, it was a Glorious
victory... even if I couldnt get past the 2nd stage.


 There are a few games, that sort of force you into caring about the score.  Target Earth, for the
Sega Genesis, is one of them... because, at the end of a level... if your score is high enough,
you get more weapons available to you, for the next level.

 The only other game I can think of, off hand..  that I cared about the score,  was when playing
something like Skee Ball.  (Both real, and Virtual)

 I did participate in a few Pinball competitions, merely just to play... but I was always far outclassed,
as these dudes spent a lot more time playing, than myself.  I always had fun playing, no matter
what score I got.  But it was fun to try to beat my own top score.

 I think, if a game is fun enough... certain people that dont really care about score.. might actually
notice it.  But a lot of the time, people like myself, will just note the stage level that we managed to
reach.  For example... I think I got to level 34 on a Robotron machine once.  That said, it was probably
set to an easier difficulty level, rather than standard / normal.

[RandyT]

Even the modern low-pressure micros, and modern leaf buttons, cant compare to the original leafswitch... because
they both "Bottom Out".  When you bottom out, you are suffering resistance and get impact fatigue.  Where as
an original leafswitch.. you find the activation spot.. and lightly bounce / vibrate the thing... without ever bottoming
out the button.  Like lightly bouncing on a very flexible diving board, squeaky loose floorboard, or light spring pressure
trampoline.

Every original, factory installed leaf button on my original Williams Defender panel sitting right next to me "bottoms out" easily.  The old leaf switch buttons come in a number of varieties.  I swear that we have had this discussion before. 

But you don't need to press a button, be it leaf or microswitch, all the way to the bottom, only enough to close the contacts.  The difference between a micro and a leaf is that the micro will always have a specific reset distance, regardless of how soft they are.  This distance is part of the manufacturing spec of the switch.  There is also a change in resistance as the spring tension is overcome, which is more of an issue on heavier micros than the lighter ones.   But these two things combined can make it much more difficult to rapidly cycle a microswitch with a high degree of repeatability.  A true leaf-switch, on the other hand, has a zero-length reset distance, and does not present a change in physical resistance near the point of actuation, which makes it easy to oscillate.

[PL1]

The difference between a micro and a leaf is that the micro will always have a specific reset distance, regardless of how soft they are.

Top shows a microswitch.  Bottom shows a leaf switch.




Scott

[bobbyb13]

I suck at all of them- and still love playing them!

Prioir to joining this community I had no idea there were different types of switches, only that the ones I used to play as a kid felt better than what I first bought for building as an adult.
What a difference a few years makes.

And now... no substitute for a properly adjusted old school style leaf switch (for buttons OR sticks) as far as I'm concerned.

Change my mind
 

[Xiaou2]

Every original, factory installed leaf button on my original Williams Defender panel sitting right next to me "bottoms out" easily.

Every leaf CAN bottom out... if you press it too far / hard.   However,  the activation point of the switch is closer to the top... and you can
vibrate the leafs on and off, a mere paper-thickness in distance... without coming even close to bottoming out the switch.

 If your leafs are too old and worn... then they wont have enough spring resistance, and it will be too easy to bottom out.

But you don't need to press a button, be it leaf or microswitch, all the way to the bottom, only enough to close the contacts.

 You cant "Feather" a Microswitch.   A standard Microswtich has way too much activation tension, so the distance between
activation and reset, will always be the same...  and even reset,  you will have to overcome the initial activation forces.

 Also... once the micro activates, it is Physically bottomed out.  Maybe at best, you have a MM left of travel... but you will
not easily be able to keep it from hitting bottom.

 Furthermore... Bouncing on the Leafs,  retains far more of the Energy you put in... and you are able to maintain that energy
in a constant flow.


 The big problem with  "LIGHT ACTIVATION force micros",   is that they are Too easily activated.  Just resting your fingers
on the buttons.. and they often accidentally fire.

 This is yet another advantage of real Leafs.  The spring forces are enough to keep you from accidentally activating them.
It feels like your fingers are floating... and then, you just press a little deeper, find the activation area... and lightly vibrate on and off.

 You also dont have feel,  nor hear... a constant CLACKITY CLACK,  from both the buttons bottoming out, and the Micros themselves.

[RandyT]

If your leafs are too old and worn... then they wont have enough spring resistance, and it will be too easy to bottom out.

No, that's just the way they are.  Even the player 2 start button (you know, the one which got the least amount of use) is soft and easily bottoms out.  You seem only to have experience with badly installed leaf-switches on conversions which were placed too close to the plunger.  If they were as tight as you describe, they would need constant adjustment and replacement as the contacts would take a terrible beating from scrubbing against each other.  I have just such a conversion unit here and it arrived with the contact points gone because they were worn flat.  The ones on my Defender panel still have plenty of life and they still have factory soldered connections to the wire harness.

You also assume all of those old leaf switch buttons were the same and they were not.  Neither were the switches themselves.  Some had thicker or shorter or longer leaves, in order to give them the properties the game makers were looking for.  Leaf switches are customized at the factory, just like microswitches.  You order them with the properties you want and that's what they send to you.

The big problem with  "LIGHT ACTIVATION force micros",   is that they are Too easily activated.  Just resting your fingers
on the buttons.. and they often accidentally fire.

That's not an issue with the switch, rather the spring in the button itself.  If you lack the control to keep from accidentally actuating the switch, you can give the spring a stretch and make it as firm as you like.  What you don't want is that "bump in the road" created by the snap-spring mechanism in the switch.

[negative1]

pacmania 427k - default settings - 3 men:



Thats its for now, will probably max out around 500k.

Moving back to super pac-man to get a million, and then onto pac N pal to do the same.

later
-1

[Zebidee]

Thats its for now, will probably max out around 500k.

You've been busy

[pbj]

So I do actually try and play a Genesis game occasionally, even though the bulk of my SEGA time is spent making and stacking up more cartridges.

Last weekend, I sat down with the game Flink.  It's got that weird air brushy C-64/Amiga look, but is actually a very nice looking game by Genesis standards.

With infinite health, continues, and items I was still unable to make any real progress on it.  The obtuse derived from a keyboard interface doesn't help, but good god.  I mean, I'm pretty crap at video games and all but this one was particularly vexing.  It was like that jump in the cave in Aladdin except level after level like that.

 

[RandyT]

@PBJ

Don't feel bad.  Psygnosis started out on the Amiga.  Their early games pushed the graphical limits for their time, but they can also be somewhat frustrating unless you really put the time into them.  The learning curve for some seemed more like a straight vertical line.

But once you die about 50 times, it "clicks" and the games are fun to play and usually have good replay value.

[Xiaou2]

If your leafs are too old and worn... then they wont have enough spring resistance, and it will be too easy to bottom out.

No, that's just the way they are.  Even the player 2 start button (you know, the one which got the least amount of use) is soft and easily bottoms out.  You seem only to have experience with badly installed leaf-switches on conversions which were placed too close to the plunger.  If they were as tight as you describe, they would need constant adjustment and replacement as the contacts would take a terrible beating from scrubbing against each other.  I have just such a conversion unit here and it arrived with the contact points gone because they were worn flat.  The ones on my Defender panel still have plenty of life and they still have factory soldered connections to the wire harness.

 Metal Fatigue has been discussed here before.  I didnt really consider it, before that point... but after visiting Funspot, and trying to play a Robotron
that had badly fatigued Leafs... I realized that the problem is exactly as Described.   Especially considering, that I have played a friends Robotron,
that has good leafs installed in it, not that far from the time of the Funspot trip.  I could easily tell the difference between the two.

 Yes, you can try to over-Bend certain fatigued springs... to get more resistance... but even with that, if the metal is too fatigued, it will
quickly lose that bend, and will go back to being way too weak.  (which is exactly what was happening with the Funspot Robotron)


 Id assume that some MFG may have used different buttons and or leafs, for the Start buttons.  As they do not need a long travel, and they
are not used much.

 I can say, that I recall having some leaf buttons, that have a much longer travel, than others.
I will also say, that many Leafswitches tend to have more than two leafs.  They have a 3rd leaf, that provides extra spring strength.

 I will also say, that Ive experienced Spring Fatigue from Spring driven Toys... when I was collecting certain old mechanical toys...such as
the game "Frenzy".   Frenzy's ball-drop mechanism, relies on a set timing / speed... and once the spring was fatigued, it couldnt rotate
the mechanism fast enough, to end up dropping multiple balls on the field... before the player could get a single ball into the score chute.

The big problem with  "LIGHT ACTIVATION force micros",   is that they are Too easily activated.  Just resting your fingers
on the buttons.. and they often accidentally fire.

That's not an issue with the switch, rather the spring in the button itself.  If you lack the control to keep from accidentally actuating the switch, you can give the spring a stretch and make it as firm as you like.  What you don't want is that "bump in the road" created by the snap-spring mechanism in the switch.

 I tried your trick, to pull and extend the spring... but it was still WAY too lose/light, as far as resistance goes.
Those particular springs, are not high tension springs.  They are thin, light-pressure "return" springs.  They are made to return a lightweight
piece of plastic... NOT meant to resist the downwards pressure of a human Finger.   You would need a much Beefier spring for that.

[Xiaou2]

@PBJ

Don't feel bad.  Psygnosis started out on the Amiga.  Their early games pushed the graphical limits for their time, but they can also be somewhat frustrating unless you really put the time into them.  The learning curve for some seemed more like a straight vertical line.

But once you die about 50 times, it "clicks" and the games are fun to play and usually have good replay value.

 I bought an Amiga, mostly because of the  Psygnosis  game,  Shadow of the Beast.  I was very impressed with the multi-parallax scrolling layers..  the artistry of the graphics.. and the great stereo soundtrack.   However... upon playing the game at home... It was pretty awful.  Most of it was cheap Pop-Ups that would sap your health.  The rest was precision timing.

 As good as it looked.. it wasnt actually "Fun" to play.   Its gameplay was Clunky, slow, and "Wonky".

 I played a Demo version of  Wipeout.. and I was also impressed with the Graphics... but the control of the Ship, was absolute Sh*T,  IMO.

 I tried "Rewind" ("The Killing Game" ?)  for the Genesis... and while it played OK... it was not that fun,  and,  it wasnt even that graphically interesting either.

 I think the only  Psygnosis  game that I enjoyed playing, was  "The Adventures of Lomax"  for the  PS1.   It actually had pretty decent control, and OK gameplay.
The graphics were a thing of Beauty, on that game.   That said, from what I recall, the gameplay was a bit "Basic".   If given the choice, between playing
Lomax vs Ghouls and Ghost... Id always prefer G&G...  Or on the same console... Rayman (original).

 The biggest problem with most PC games, was a steep difficulty, due to the fact that they didnt have a lot of memory and storage to work with...
so to make up for that.. then made certain areas, nearly impossible, and often, very "Quirky".

 One of the few Amiga games, that played almost as good as any Arcade game... was  Battle Squadron.   The only issue with BS, was the lower level
difficulty, if you lost any of your powerups.  In that sense, it became similar to R-Type (best to start over from scratch, if you lose a life)... but still not
quite as brutal as R-Type.

 But even when  Psygnosis  creators were given a console to work with..  IMO,  they still had various gameplay issues, that prevented them
from becoming great / fantastic games.

[RandyT]

I played a Demo version of  Wipeout.. and I was also impressed with the Graphics... but the control of the Ship, was absolute Sh*T,  IMO.

When I first started playing Wipeout, I played so poorly that I thought I was doing something wrong.  Well, it turns out that I was.  If you don't learn to use the banking function, and use it well, you will hate the game.  Once I learned the technique, and it wasn't easy, controlling the ship became second nature.  I have more hours in Wipeout and it's sequels than possibly any other game.

When I did most of my gaming on an Amiga, I went back to the Psygnosis titles again and again.  If you never played Menace back in the day, you missed out.  Ballistix was another favorite, which combined elements from pinball, air-hockey, billiards and shooters, with a macabre theme.  And who could forget Lemmings?

None of their games were easy.  But difficult doesn't always mean bad or poorly designed.  (see Defender/Stargate)

[negative1]

​
super pac-man finally hit 1 million plus, with 3 men default (+2 bonus):

 

Arcade 1up Game : Super Pac Man Score : 1.12 Million - Settings : 3men+2 bonus Machine : Dig dug machine Levels : 2 - 100 THE ONE time i forget to start recording from the beginning. 3 weeks of playing hundreds of times, 40 years later, FINALLY got past 1 million with 3 men+2 bonus, got through 40 levels perfect without dying. Although messed up a bunch of patterns. The cake, and mushrooms are the hardest.

 



later

-1

​

[tommyinajar]

Truly authentic controls for each individual game make such a remarkable difference in gameplay that it is astounding.

 Yes!  Playing defender, Q-bert or Joust even. It makes a difference. Same "need" as having scanlines in a game.

That's why I am going multiple CP layouts with USB's.

[javeryh]

​super pac-man finally hit 1 million plus, with 3 men default (+2 bonus):

Damn.