crtemudriver losing sync, how to troubleshoot?

[feltz]

Oh man i am such an idiot.

I think I solved my issue. I never thought to look at arcade OSD for the resolutions that were causing sync issues, because the games were vertical and i didnt notice their geometry.
Turns out this was my issue, as my h/v porch values were way off.

Still a good learning experience for me! I was close to replacing this Sony KV-27S42, thank god i didnt give up.

[Zebidee]

Ah well. Is always something simple nobody had thought of yet.

Were your porch values out because your monitor presets were wonky, or something else?

[feltz]

I'm not 100% sure, i just noticed that when i ran arcade OSD they were off screen. When i adjusted the values until the image was centered, the problematic resolutions were no longer problematic.

Here's another thing I dont quite understand with Aracde OSD flow.
These horizontal front/back porch values do not work for all resolutions.

For instance, i tried three different 480i resolutions and got different timings for each of them to get them centered. How the heck do I handle this?
This is my output when copying to clipboard from Arcade OSD on each of the resolutions, and all of their hf/b porch values differ quite a bit.

Code: [Select]

modeline "2560x480_60 15.69KHz 60.00Hz" 51.34 2560 2712 2960 3272 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15680.71-15700.71, 50.00-60.00, 2.961, 4.831, 6.077, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "1440x480_60 15.69KHz 60.01Hz" 28.62 1440 1520 1656 1824 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15682.06-15702.06, 50.00-60.00, 2.795, 4.752, 5.870, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "640x480_60 15.69KHz 59.98Hz" 12.67 640 672 736 808 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15675.10-15695.10, 50.00-60.00, 2.525, 5.050, 5.681, 0.191, 0.383, 2.168, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 271

[Zebidee]

I'm no expert at ArcadeOSD, but have you tried 720x480i? That is native NTSC resolution

[Calamity]

Code: [Select]

modeline "2560x480_60 15.69KHz 60.00Hz" 51.34 2560 2712 2960 3272 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15680.71-15700.71, 50.00-60.00, 2.961, 4.831, 6.077, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "1440x480_60 15.69KHz 60.01Hz" 28.62 1440 1520 1656 1824 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15682.06-15702.06, 50.00-60.00, 2.795, 4.752, 5.870, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "640x480_60 15.69KHz 59.98Hz" 12.67 640 672 736 808 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15675.10-15695.10, 50.00-60.00, 2.525, 5.050, 5.681, 0.191, 0.383, 2.168, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 271

@feltz, those ranges are incorrect. The line limits are absurd: 240, 135, 480, 271

The value were you have 135 should be a progressive max, say 256 or 288.
The value were you have 271 should be an interlaced max, say 512 or 576 (or whatever that's interlaced, not 271)

The horizontal values you should consider are the ones of your 2560x mode, those will be the most accurate (finer resolution). The others are different due to rounding errors of lower resolutions. This issue is now solved in GM thanks to the pixel precision option. Arcade OSD and VMMaker are outdated on this regard, they still work with 8 pixel blocks (less precision).

[Zebidee]

Code: [Select]

modeline "2560x480_60 15.69KHz 60.00Hz" 51.34 2560 2712 2960 3272 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15680.71-15700.71, 50.00-60.00, 2.961, 4.831, 6.077, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "1440x480_60 15.69KHz 60.01Hz" 28.62 1440 1520 1656 1824 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15682.06-15702.06, 50.00-60.00, 2.795, 4.752, 5.870, 0.191, 0.382, 2.167, 0, 0, 240, 136, 480, 271

Code: [Select]

modeline "640x480_60 15.69KHz 59.98Hz" 12.67 640 672 736 808 480 483 489 523 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15675.10-15695.10, 50.00-60.00, 2.525, 5.050, 5.681, 0.191, 0.383, 2.168, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 271

@feltz, those ranges are incorrect. The line limits are absurd: 240, 135, 480, 271

The value were you have 135 should be a progressive max, say 256 or 288.
The value were you have 271 should be an interlaced max, say 512 or 576 (or whatever that's interlaced, not 271)

The horizontal values you should consider are the ones of your 2560x mode, those will be the most accurate (finer resolution). The others are different due to rounding errors of lower resolutions. This issue is now solved in GM thanks to the pixel precision option. Arcade OSD and VMMaker are outdated on this regard, they still work with 8 pixel blocks (less precision).

The other thing I noticed is wonky is your horizontal and vertical frequency ranges in those modelines.

NTSC is (H) 15734khz @ (V) 59.94hz, but those ranges are like (H) 15675-15700 (roughly) and (V) 50-60hz.

So looks like you need to go back to first principles and get your monitor presets right.

[feltz]

Ok, I have no idea how those got so messed up, but i think it might have been from attempting to use generic_15 values..
I found another problem too, which was that mame.ini was set to custom instead of ntsc. I was assuming that vmmmaker would overwrite the monitor value based on the dropdown selection.
anyways, long story short, i think its now 100% fixed. edit:Guess i spoke too soon.

I used the ntsc preset, and only modified the f/b horizontal porch values that i grabbed from arcade osd @ 2560x480 after adjusting

The new values are:

Code: [Select]

modeline "2560x480_60 15.73KHz 59.94Hz" 50.85 2560 2696 2920 3232 480 487 493 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15723.77-15743.77, 50.00-60.00, 2.674, 4.405, 6.136, 0.445, 0.381, 2.034, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 270
I assume i do not need to also modify the HSyncPulse, i leave what was in the ntsc preset?

Thanks so much to Zebidee and Calamity for helping me troubleshoot this!!!


I guess I do not understand the flow for adjusting the timings, these are not values that I am putting in, so how are they so off?
I'm simply modifying the ntsc preset in monitor.ini, and adjusting the two values. Then I get this output from Aracde OSD when viewing the problematic interlace resolution?

[feltz]

New update, i got another CRT with s-video input, and this TV doesnt seem to get a signal at all with this encoder output. I verified the input works fine using a PS2 s-video output.
So i guess this is good and bad news, i'm guessing my Trinitron is fine, and the problem lies somewhere in the video card or encoder..

I ordered a PS2 scart cable as my encoder takes that input, so i can see if its just the encoder itself. Will update when that comes in..

[Zebidee]

New update, i got another CRT with s-video input, and this TV doesnt seem to get a signal at all with this encoder output. I verified the input works fine using a PS2 s-video output.
So i guess this is good and bad news, i'm guessing my Trinitron is fine, and the problem lies somewhere in the video card or encoder..

I ordered a PS2 scart cable as my encoder takes that input, so i can see if its just the encoder itself. Will update when that comes in..

I am not so sure. I think the problem is with your monitor presets, crt_range and video mode.

Ok, I have no idea how those got so messed up, but i think it might have been from attempting to use generic_15 values..
I found another problem too, which was that mame.ini was set to custom instead of ntsc. I was assuming that vmmmaker would overwrite the monitor value based on the dropdown selection.
anyways, long story short, i think its now 100% fixed. edit:Guess i spoke too soon.

To save these headaches, always quit the GUI in VMMaker by clicking "OK". That way it saves and applies your settings, including updating mame.ini

I used the ntsc preset, and only modified the f/b horizontal porch values that i grabbed from arcade osd @ 2560x480 after adjusting

The new values are:
modeline "2560x480_60 15.73KHz 59.94Hz" 50.85 2560 2696 2920 3232 480 487 493 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15723.77-15743.77, 50.00-60.00, 2.674, 4.405, 6.136, 0.445, 0.381, 2.034, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 270

I assume i do not need to also modify the HSyncPulse, i leave what was in the ntsc preset?

I don't really understand all the modeline part of the ArcadeOSD output, but there are a few things wrong with the crt_range here.

Looks like you aren't using the default NTSC presets.

For NTSC the requirements are pretty tight. For example 59.94hz (V) and 15734.25 (H), Hpulse width of 4.7us, 525 vertical lines (480 visible) to show 29.97 (interlaced, half the V) fields per second (525 * 29.97 = 15734.25).

This stuff in all specified in the original presets defined in monitor.ini, that you download with the CRT tools package, though you may have edited it since.

Why is the vertical f range set to 50.00 - 60.00? It should be 59.94.

The horizontal f range is weird, but at least it brackets the right number so ok.

The H sync pulse should be 4.7us (microseconds) or close to it. This is set in the default NTSC preset there is no need to change it.

What is that "270" at the end?

So I suggest that you overwrite your monitor.ini with a fresh copy from the install package. Then run VMMaker, choose NTSC presets and whatever else you need to do, check the box in the last tab to update your mame.ini and make sure the file path is correct, then click "OK" to make sure everything is processed and saved properly.

Then regenerate and reinstall your modes. For now don't worry about supermodes. Just try to get say 640x480i or even 720x480i or 704x480i (NTSC standard) working.

[feltz]

That's just the output from arcade osd when copying from clipboard. I'm using a fresh monitor.ini with defaults. I think there's a bug with arcade osd with the copying of the modeline to clipboard, because I've gone through this process a hundred times now without making any adjustments to monitor.ini at all.

[Zebidee]

Seems it might be easier to just RGB mod or component mod the TV! 

[feltz]

Ok, i'm going to post some screen shots of how i'm doing this, because maybe I am doing something wrong. Hopefully Calamity can chime in on the Arcade OSD thing, because i think that is where all the confusion is coming from.

Modifications: I create a user-mode-640-only.ini file, with the only option:

Code: [Select]

640 x 480 @ 60.000000 desktop
Step 1: I'm launching VMMaker, and selecting NTSC as the option on monitor tab. (Using default values in monitor.ini that is pulled in, which is set to:

Code: [Select]

monitor "ntsc", "NTSC TV - 60 Hz/525", "4:3"
        crt_range0 15734.26-15734.26, 59.94-59.94, 1.500, 4.700, 4.700, 0.191, 0.191, 0.953, 0, 0, 192, 240, 448, 480
Step 2: On the video card tab, I select my video card from the drop down, select the analog output and enable EDID emulation.

Step 3: On the user modes tab, I browse to my modified user-mode-640-only.ini file that has the single user mode.

Step 4: On the mame tab, i browse to GM executable. Leaving XML processing off.

Step 5: I hit OK, and it exports the settings to mame.ini

Step 6: I hit Generate Modes, and it generates a single modeline.

Step 7: I hit Install Modes, and it installs them into the driver.

Step 8: I launch Arcade OSD, and I see two modes (im guessing one is from EDID emulation? I'm not sure why im getting one at 30 and one at 60)

Step 9: I go into 640x480@60 mode, and then copy the modeline to clip board. I get this output:

Code: [Select]

modeline "640x480_60 15.73KHz 59.94Hz" 12.21 640 664 720 776 480 487 493 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
crt_range 15724.54-15744.54, 50.00-60.00, 1.966, 4.586, 4.586, 0.445, 0.381, 2.034, 0, 0, 240, 135, 480, 270
Why does crt_range this have 50-60 VfreqMin-VfreqMax? This is not the modeline i'm using, but this is what Arcade OSD outputs. I think this is where all the confusion came from, as this obviously looks wrong. Even the HfreqMin-HfreqMax is slightly off as well.

In this state, I cannot get a signal on my Emerson CRT tv, and I get an unstable signal on the Trinitron CRT (which is what I originally posted this thread for)

On both TVs, a PS2 console with S-Video output gets a clear signal without any issues.

[Zebidee]

I don't know about the ArcadeOSD modeline outputs, but maybe you could try 720x480i and 720x240p as that is NTSC standard res

[feltz]

I have given up trying to work with this y/c encoder, and decided to face my fears and RGB mod this TV.
Will be following this process: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1342960#p1342960 as it allows me to keep my OSD in with the RGB signal, and also seems much easier as far as soldering is concerned.

Will update when complete!

[feltz]

Holy smokes. I think things are going well. I THINK i successfully modded my TV for RGB.

I only have one problem, and that is my desktop resolution seems to be out of sync. I boot windows, power on the TV, and it looks like there is no sync signal with wavy diagonal lines.
But i run a 240p game, and it looks fine. At first i assumed it was interlace resolutions being messed up, but i ran a game and let switches put me in 480i (which is the same as my desktop) and it works.

Any idea how / why my desktop resolution is not working?

Here's a video of it occurring. I launch a game that switches res to 240p, then soon as i exit, its out of sync

[Zebidee]

Well done with the RGB mod!

Sounds like you are using native 640x480 for desktop, instead of the custom interlaced 640x480i generated by CRTEMU. You can change desktop resolution with ArcadeOSD, if you can access it. Try a VGA monitor when then lines go wavy/diagonal.

[feltz]

It looks that way, but its not the case. At least Windows doesnt think so.

[feltz]

nevermind i think i solved it. I must have had enabled EDID emulation prior to reversing polarity on h/v sync in monitor.ini
I disabled and reenabled EDID emulation, and it seems to be working now.

I cannot believe how beautiful this looks now, i am so happy i decided to RGB mod this TV. Encoders can kick rocks.

[Zebidee]

nevermind i think i solved it. I must have had enabled EDID emulation prior to reversing polarity on h/v sync in monitor.ini
I disabled and reenabled EDID emulation, and it seems to be working now.

I cannot believe how beautiful this looks now, i am so happy i decided to RGB mod this TV. Encoders can kick rocks.

Congrats!

something like 90% or more of post 1980 CRTs can be either RGB or component modded so no need to suffer svideo encoders anyways.

I just component modded another TV last night, tidied it up today. Just add Greenantz = another monitor, no dramas, setup for crtemu is identical to RGB so seamless plug n play. CRT future looking bright


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk