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Author Topic: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions  (Read 13046 times)

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thelanranger

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Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« on: June 12, 2021, 10:52:47 pm »
I'm currently in the process of designing a four player setup for a pedestal. I've been spending way too much time on here trying to find things that conform to the ideas in my head and there simply doesn't seem to be anything.

Ultimately my game goals are as follows:
1) 4 Player games like TMNT, Xmen, Guantlet, etc.
2) The ability to play Virtual On and Cyber Troopers: Virtual On (at least one player)
3) Golden Tee
4) Off-Road, Blasteroids, Tempest, etc (so at least one, maybe two spinners).

My design question is really as follows; there's a lot of controversy about the various layouts of the Aircraft carrier design and whatnot but I have not seen anyone make anything that is setup such that 4 players would be capable of playing comfortably if they were at a pedestal looking at something like a projector or even if they screen was simply as wide as the panel (just a normal 55"-60" TV on the wall). How do you address this?
1) How much space for each player?
2) How much space between joysticks?
3) If player 1 and player 2 end up each getting their own 8-way and a little flight stick (like a U360FS) what would be the best way to orient all this stuff so it's not crowded and it maximizes the playability?

Lots of questions, but here we are...

bobbyb13

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2021, 04:01:16 am »
With a screen that size, viewing angle ceases to be an issue I would think.
Make your pedestal as wide as you want if you have the room.

The aircraft carrier tag is for upright cabs really.
The diffence in morphology means the (sometimes derisive) tag doesn't apply to a pedestal.

From a design standpoint I feel like less than 15" per adult is cramped.
For 4 sweaty men that means a 5' wide panel, which sounds obnoxious, UNLESS you have the space and are using a screen 55" diagonal or larger.

Then, I would argue, it is actually quite proportional .
Especially when with a pedestal your nose probably isn't 24" from the screen.

I have a 36" crt which will be the focus of a 4 player pedestal if I live long enough, so this design quandry is always bouncing around in my head.

The one I make for myself eventually (I hope!) will probably incorporate a player side convex arc to allow even more elbow room for said perspiring people.

You aren't trying to cram a machine into someone's arcade in 1982, so dream big!
 :)
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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 07:25:38 am »
For a projector setup, why don't you do two 2-player pedestals? Second one piggy backs on first...

That way players 3-4 aren't obligated to stay stuck with players 1-2...


Just an idea...

While I've been browsing ideas for 4 players cab for a decade, I still only have 2 players CP. Comfortable size makes design challenging.

Have fun building it and playing it.
-Mars

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2021, 08:31:14 am »
This covers 1 and 2:


It was designed to play the Street Fighter games, the neo geo games , the 4 player beat 'em ups, the 4 player sports games, and the twin stick games like Karate Champ and Smash TV for both players (and all the regular arcade games too).
It is the same foot print as an NBA Jam Panel but with the 4 player sticks in a straight line (for the twin stick games), if you add a track ball you need probably another foot in width, have no idea where you'd put a spinner or two either. With all those controls and flight sticks and anything else, you're quickly heading into frankenpanel absurdity.

I think 2 pedestals is likely the best idea, maybe even a 3rd with all those specialty controls, so they aren't in the way when you aren't using them.
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thelanranger

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2021, 12:31:49 pm »
For a projector setup, why don't you do two 2-player pedestals? Second one piggy backs on first...

That way players 3-4 aren't obligated to stay stuck with players 1-2...


Just an idea...

While I've been browsing ideas for 4 players cab for a decade, I still only have 2 players CP. Comfortable size makes design challenging.

Have fun building it and playing it.


This is actually kind of what I have been thinking more and more but I haven't seen any examples of it. I'd also be a little concerned about what kind of custom cable I would have to fabricate in order to like..."quick connect" two other players in place. But this would definitely give the versatility to give two players full boat then use that other panel for 3+4 and a trackball.

Marsupial

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2021, 12:40:48 pm »
Each player is

4x directions
6x buttons (unless you have less/more? For players 3-4 I'd go with 4...)
1x coin
1x start

So, about 12 inputs per player

 = abt 24 pins for two players ... Plus gnd but - see below.

6 for a trackball. Includes 5v & gnd. <-

Question Do you need a trackball on 2nd pedestal?

30 distinct wires.

You easily could use 2x db-25 connectors. Cable may be complicated or pricey to find but nothing prevents you from using 2-3 cables and sleeve them together.

It's essentially a longer connection between the controller and the 2nd pedestal.



OR

You make the 2nd pedestal like a separate joystick, with its own controller boars, and connect it to a USB port on the first pedestal.

You could use a mini-pac.

This way, you can also use the 2nd pedestal on other equipment.

That what I'd do...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:42:28 pm by Marsupial »
-Mars

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 01:15:50 pm »
You make the 2nd pedestal like a separate joystick, with its own controller boars, and connect it to a USB port on the first pedestal.
You might want to consider using Neutrik NAUSB-W-B (black) or NAUSB-W (nickel) USB feedthrus if you want to use removable, commonly-available USB A-B cables.
- Pull two screws (2nd photo) and you can reverse the center barrel so the "B" side is on the outside of the 2nd pedestal's enclosure. (3rd photo)
- The second pedestal's USB encoder board plugs into the "A" side of the feedthru on the inside of the 2nd pedestal's enclosure.

   




Scott

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 01:22:15 pm »
Scott is right, those connectors are awesome.


No later than yesterday I installed a rj45 neutrik connector to my cab.
Easy, clean install.

Alternatively, there are sockets that can be mounted in the same holes as arcade buttons

https://www.arcaderenovations.com/cabinet-mount-dual-usb-ports.html

I tested some and they fit tight on 3/4 MDF
-Mars

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 02:01:23 pm »
Alternatively, there are sockets that can be mounted in the same holes as arcade buttons

https://www.arcaderenovations.com/cabinet-mount-dual-usb-ports.html
Those are great for external USB ports on the first pedestal enclosure or you can use a Neutrik feedthru with the "A" side out and a USB A-B cable from the computer to the Neutrik.


Scott

thelanranger

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2021, 09:48:12 pm »
This covers 1 and 2:


It was designed to play the Street Fighter games, the neo geo games , the 4 player beat 'em ups, the 4 player sports games, and the twin stick games like Karate Champ and Smash TV for both players (and all the regular arcade games too).
It is the same foot print as an NBA Jam Panel but with the 4 player sticks in a straight line (for the twin stick games), if you add a track ball you need probably another foot in width, have no idea where you'd put a spinner or two either. With all those controls and flight sticks and anything else, you're quickly heading into frankenpanel absurdity.

I think 2 pedestals is likely the best idea, maybe even a 3rd with all those specialty controls, so they aren't in the way when you aren't using them.

Something like this would be ideal but I think maybe Virtual On and the like are holding me up. That would not let you play Virtual on because you'd need buttons on both sticks. If you add a Ultrastick 360 Flight Stick (or something like that) for each player 1 & 2 then you could play 1 player Virtual On and a multitude of other games.

The issue arises of placement of those in conjunction with a trackball. That scenario starts to make the panel....large.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 11:32:38 pm »
Not even just large- but cluttered.  To the point of being confusing or difficulrt to play really.

Your desires are more suited to more than one machine or one with swappable panels.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2021, 01:45:54 am »
A jack of all trades is a master of none.   Says Howard, in response to a ridiculous frakenpanel design that he knows will fall on deaf ears because he's been saying the same damn thing for over 20 years on this forum.   

Make a generic dynamo style cab and that will play 90% of the games in mame..... if you want to play virtual on get a virtual on cab to go with it... if you want to have dual spinners get a warlords to go with it ect.....   Yes it will cost more money, but unlike what you are proposing they will be useable and being able to actually play the thing is the point right?

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2021, 10:39:36 am »
I have a 4 foot wide pedestal control panel that I bolted onto an old media stand. Regarding spacing, I prioritized player 1 and 2 by offsetting the wing joysticks toward the rear of the panel.

I like games that use a spinner along with joystick controls, like Forgotten Worlds and Eco fighters, so I installed two spinners above the player 1 and 2 action buttons in such a way that I could hold down a button with my palm while using a spinner. I also didn't want to deal with the added expense and hassle of up/down spinners or trigger stick joysticks. Eventually, I added a pair of small foot pedals to make hitting a button with using the stick and spinner even easier.

The 3 and 4 player controls on my panel are pretty much not used, but at this point I don't even have 2 or 3 arcade enthusiasts that I regularly hang out with. I can get pretty much anyone to play the party trackball games, especially World Class Bowling Deluxe and Shuffleshot, but otherwise it's just me playing arcade games solo.

As always, the best design will be the one that arises from your needs and available space. IMO, optimally, you prototype your layout and get your gaming buddies to test it out with you (stand/sit around it and put your hands down on the controls) before beginning drilling.

Good luck!

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2021, 02:07:30 am »
I have a 4 player, 4' proto now and it seems like everything would fit fine and be perfectly playable if there was no trackball. The real issue is that if you shove a trackball in the middle of a 4 player panel then it goes from 48" to 58" if you want to leave enough space around that ball.

I don't really get the hate on the 'franken-panel'. The prototype board I have used for a long time now is just a 1/2" piece of melamine with all the holes drilled and screwed to an old cabinet. I've been adding joysticks and stuff to test layouts and I don't find anything to be 'unplayable' or cluttered.

My biggest concern at this point is the thing being some giant behemoth that takes up an entire room and if I end up not playing it for a year I'll just want it out of my house. I don't think this particular issue would be solved with multiple panels or any kind of modular system either.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2021, 03:01:17 am »
No matter what any of us say, it is all about what you want anyway!

If you have a proto panel that works for you then run with it.
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2021, 07:49:32 am »
I don't really get the hate on the 'franken-panel'.

Depends on the panel and controls, but more often than not all the extra controls rarely get used, make the panels too large, and the layout is less than ideal because of all the extra controls.

Most of us giving advise have gone through all the pitfalls you are setting yourself up to repeat. Personally, don't have a dog in the fight. Make your panel as huge as you want with 3 trackballs (gotta play rampart right?) and you'll either love it and think we were being ---Deutsche Frankfurters---, or hate it and be mad at us for being right.
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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2021, 11:48:15 am »
Right...but so like...aside from the 'aircraft carrier' shape, what in particular is wrong with like this:
https://www.ultimarc.com/arcade-control-panel/
or this:

(Though the latter one I don't really get that panel with all the extra buttons in it...seems excessive.)

I have to be honest, it seems like those are both pretty clean layouts. I could see how you wouldn't necessarily want either for a pedestal though because the player 3/4 would have difficulty looking sideways at a screen that was not right up against the edge of the panel. But all that really does is necessitates making it a bit wider in order to 'straighten' everything out.
What am I missing here?

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2021, 06:22:21 pm »
Right...but so like...aside from the 'aircraft carrier' shape, what in particular is wrong with like this:

What am I missing here?

I don't think sharing my thoughts on either panel would do much to dissuade you so I'll spare my keyboard and the forum all that text. Build what you dig.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 05:39:42 pm »
If not already mentioned, heed the pic in my sig.  The control panel in that video has angled joysticks.  Look at four player control panels on original machines.  The players and buttons are angled, but the joystick is aligned squarely with the screen.  There is a reason they did it that way.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 09:52:22 pm »
If not already mentioned, heed the pic in my sig.  The control panel in that video has angled joysticks.  Look at four player control panels on original machines.  The players and buttons are angled, but the joystick is aligned squarely with the screen.  There is a reason they did it that way.

I've been experimenting with this on my test panel. The 'always facing vertical' thing makes sense on a cabinet but it seems awkward with a pedestal. I understand what is going on with the konami 4 player panels where you're basically standing sideways so you just have your joystick turned 90 degrees to you but it doesn't really matter cause 'up' moves your guy sideways on the screen which is what you're seeing. If you have a pedestal and the screen is 12' away on a projector you're not going to be standing sideways. You'd want everything in an arc and all facing the screen like the new machines do.

Like look at Pacman Battle Royale. Those aren't all 'square to the screen'. That's setup like a THX theater.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2021, 12:19:35 am »
Those Pac-Man joysticks are probably restricted to 4 way movement, so you're unlikely to accidentally hit the diagonals, even when you're angled toward the screen.

Also, IMO, for the majority of 4 player arcade beat 'em ups, it's not going to matter too much if you angle your joysticks as people don't tend to make precise movements from neutral.

The problem is that hand movement often orients toward the screen, so angled joysticks can be confusing, but you and other players will likely get used to whatever you've got. I mean people play with non-inverted look in first person shooters and that makes no sense, but developers keep screwing it up by making non-inverted the default.  :laugh2:

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2021, 02:07:43 am »
If not already mentioned, heed the pic in my sig.  The control panel in that video has angled joysticks.  Look at four player control panels on original machines.  The players and buttons are angled, but the joystick is aligned squarely with the screen.  There is a reason they did it that way.

I've been experimenting with this on my test panel. The 'always facing vertical' thing makes sense on a cabinet but it seems awkward with a pedestal. I understand what is going on with the konami 4 player panels where you're basically standing sideways so you just have your joystick turned 90 degrees to you but it doesn't really matter cause 'up' moves your guy sideways on the screen which is what you're seeing. If you have a pedestal and the screen is 12' away on a projector you're not going to be standing sideways. You'd want everything in an arc and all facing the screen like the new machines do.

Like look at Pacman Battle Royale. Those aren't all 'square to the screen'. That's setup like a THX theater.

You are going to have problems
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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2021, 06:06:17 am »
If not already mentioned, heed the pic in my sig.  The control panel in that video has angled joysticks.  Look at four player control panels on original machines.  The players and buttons are angled, but the joystick is aligned squarely with the screen.  There is a reason they did it that way.

I've been experimenting with this on my test panel. The 'always facing vertical' thing makes sense on a cabinet but it seems awkward with a pedestal. I understand what is going on with the konami 4 player panels where you're basically standing sideways so you just have your joystick turned 90 degrees to you but it doesn't really matter cause 'up' moves your guy sideways on the screen which is what you're seeing. If you have a pedestal and the screen is 12' away on a projector you're not going to be standing sideways. You'd want everything in an arc and all facing the screen like the new machines do.

Like look at Pacman Battle Royale. Those aren't all 'square to the screen'. That's setup like a THX theater.

You are going to have problems

Not really unless you have wifey problems and we have a thread for that too.

Remember this guy and his rotated joysticks?

His pedestal sounds exactly what the OP is looking for (with spinners).


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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2021, 02:18:21 pm »
Remember this guy and his rotated joysticks?

His pedestal sounds exactly what the OP is looking for (with spinners).



IIRC, he ended up having the person who built his panel correct them.

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2021, 02:24:09 pm »
Remember this guy and his rotated joysticks?

His pedestal sounds exactly what the OP is looking for (with spinners).



IIRC, he ended up having the person who built his panel correct them.
Yeah, he did. ---fudgesicle--- that guy.


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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2021, 02:29:28 pm »
See if this helps you understand the "why" behind no rotated sticks.  Double click the image for a full view.






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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2021, 08:27:21 pm »
See if this helps you understand the "why" behind no rotated sticks.  Double click the image for a full view.



None of these posts apply. That's why I posted that pacman royale cabinet. Everyone approaches this as if you're 6" from the screen. If you build a pedestal and use a projector then putting the sticks all straight across but bending the panel corners just makes the exact problem you're trying to avoid.

It is VERY obvious from every ergonomics standpoint that you would want to orient the joystick with the shoulders of the player and design the panel arc to place the shoulders of the player facing their viewing angle. The original cabinet designs never had the corners knocked off so that the player would have their shoulders 90 degrees to the screen, with your head turned (like the vector guy image). The 'intuitiveness' of the movement doesn't have anything to with the axis being perpendicular/parallel to the screen, it has to do with it being perpendicular/parallel to the shoulders of the players and that the games mechanics simultaneously make movement direction irrelevant (you still move the joystick in the direction you want to move).

If you're move the screen away from the player 10-15 FEET then everyone is essentially looking at the same image. It's no longer ergonomic to stand 90 degrees to the screen, you just want to square your shoulders to the screen. As soon as you square your shoulders to the screen you're not going to move down and right to go right. You simply have nothing to orient yourself to other than the front edge of the panel. That is all that would dictate what is 'up'.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 10:20:07 pm by thelanranger »

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2021, 09:45:30 pm »
No.

bobbyb13

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2021, 01:25:55 am »
If you are committed to your build then just do it already.

Why waste your time arguing with people who have decades more experience building these things?
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools! I can fix it.

BadMouth

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2021, 07:04:24 am »
Build a one player test panel and give it a try.

thelanranger

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2021, 10:24:50 pm »
That's the 4 player test panel I have already built and used for 10 years in the picture....
The reason I'm asking these questions is to find someone else who is using a pedestal build with a projector to get suggestions. I wasn't particularly interested in getting the same suggestions that come up in the search over and over and over again. They're easy to see and if they solved the problem I wouldn't have started a new thread about it.

There's been countless changes in system design since I built the test panel I built (let alone since I was a kid). If I was interested in playing "only 4 player konami in a cabinet" I'd just buy a cabinet. This is about making something interesting and universal. I'm looking for ideas and solutions, not "here's why you should never change anything".

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2021, 10:35:43 pm »
Again, if you want to build something unusable have at it.   We are trying to tell you what actually works.  Ignore our advice at your own peril.

vertexguy

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2021, 01:54:35 pm »
As long as your sticks are mounted to where the up axis is 90 degrees perpendicular to the screens lower edge, you're good.  The physical orientation of the players shoulders doesn't really matter.  It's all about the virtual world and virtual player you are trying to control that dictates the proper orientation of the controls.  Take a look at Q-Bert as another example.  That's one game where intentionally having the stick oriented different makes sense because those are the only true directions the player can move in the game.  This again is relative to the virtual player and their virtual environment, not the physical players shoulders.  As soon as you mess with that orientation relationship, it becomes unclear if pushing "right" moves your player up or down on a diagonal block.

You asked about what was wrong with some other layouts, and that took us down the stick orientation path.  Anyway.... lets try to go back to your original questions in your first post.  Given you already have a control panel built, I would first ask yourself, are you happy with it?  If not what would you change and why?  The only thing I saw in your questions that might be different is that you don't appear to have a trackball, spinners, (or a wheel) and don't have digital flight sticks to play something like virtual on.

I've never seen a single control panel have every controller under the sun like what you are suggesting.  I think you really only have 2 options to accomplish that.  You either make the panel that much larger to accommodate, or you think about clever modular additions.  I'm on a similar quest but not looking to build the worlds biggest control panel.  As others have pointed out, you have trade offs with aesthetic, "clutter", and general user confusion about what controls to use when you do that.  If you have that much space and money, dedicated cabs is the easiest solution to properly support a game type.

For the virtual on sticks, if you didn't want dedicated 4 way controls, you could swap the 4 way control in the upper middle area of most panel designs with another digital flight stick and you could play it single player.  You still have room there for a single spinner for games like tempest.  You can put additional spinners near / above other player button clusters as well.

I've done testing in my build thread on trackball position and distance from other controls, so I won't repeat myself here.  You should be fine for golden tee on a typical 48" size panel.  Some of that depends on your play style but even with a big whack, it's generally fine.  You do have to compromise a little on symmetry though to have the proper spacing, or you go bigger to accomidate.

Super Off Road presents a different challenge.  If that's the only racing game you care about, you only need to worry about the wheel.  You could add spinners sticking out of the front sides of your pedestal with detachable steering wheels.  If you don't like the 90 degree mount, you could fabricate some sort of hinge lock system to pull them out and lock at the proper angle for super off road when playing, and lower back to 90 degrees when done.  If you want to support other racing games too, then you have more challenges, as you need even more controls.   Now you need pedals built into the base of the pedestal for each player you want to support.  What about games like like road blaster or spy hunter?  Now you need a yoke with button controls.

As for space between players and controls, I wouldn't go any tighter than 18.5" between joystick center to joystick center unless you add in physical rotation of the player.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 05:45:27 pm by vertexguy »

thelanranger

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2021, 08:44:36 pm »
This all sounds about right but there's a couple things I've noticed that is what got me into all this:
> Now you need pedals built into the base of the pedestal for each player you want to support.  What about games like like road blaster or spy hunter?  Now you need a yoke with button controls.
I've found that things like off road and various other games are quite fun using a spinner and an analog stick. Giving the system a single spinner and a single analog stick (which I mostly got for experimentation purposes) made me realize that the combination of a switchable 8 way, a spinner, and an analog flight stick allows for A LOT of games and it doesn't feel awkward or anything to use these in most cases. My thought was then just to duplicate this exact setup to player 2.

> As for space between players and controls, I wouldn't go any tighter than 18.5" between joystick center to joystick center unless you add in physical rotation of the player.
I'm tending to agree with something like this. I don't necessarily have an issue with that but it's proving to be problematic to get a comfortable layout of 8-way/spinner/analog for both players that would put the two analogs close enough together than a single player could use those two analogs for something like virtual on.
This width issue also kind of forces you to put players 3/4 at the 90 degree angles on the sides to keep the whole thing from being  18.5" * 4 players + trackball == hugemongous. I think the preliminary drawing I did ended up around 65" wide at the fat end if it's in a nice arc.

> You asked about what was wrong with some other layouts, and that took us down the stick orientation path.  Anyway.... lets try to go back to your original questions in your first post.  Given you already have a control panel built, I would first ask yourself, are you happy with it?  If not what would you change and why?
Fundamentally I've been quite happy with what I setup now. In the end, if I just made a finished product of the exact thing I have created now I would be exceptionally irritated that it did not have a trackball (so that is a requirement) and I'd probably end up tearing a button out or drilling another hole in it later for a couple spinners. In the end, I could probably live without the analog sticks but only if I added some kind of pedals for racing games.
The other thing I would 110% alter is the 4/8 way switching on the joysticks. I'm currently debating the types of sticks to use for those player 1/2 8-ways but that doesn't really affect the layout that much.
It also appeals to me that the panel be visually interesting. I don't particularly like ANY of the standard designs for panels that I have seen and am keen to 'push the envelope' a bit to make something new and interesting (even if some people don't like it =P).

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2021, 05:04:49 am »
Regarding joystick orientation and projector.

Give it a try to see how you like it.

If you don't have a control panel available to test, put your laptop on the projector and try using the mouse at a 90 degree angle. See if you like it.

If you like it like that, you're fine. If you find it annoying, don't put angled joystick on your panel.

When in doubt, you're allowed to doubletest.
-Mars

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2021, 05:34:59 pm »
I mean...as I said, I have a test panel. I've had all 4 of the joysticks at an angle for 10 years and no one has ever said anything. When I originally made it I cut the front of the panel into 4 angles like straight tangent sides of a circle. Each joystick and the buttons were mounted so they were aligned with those tangents. No one has ever said anything about them being weird or aligned improperly or anything. It never even occurred to me that you would orient them all vertically until I saw this forums 'great debate' about it.

But again, none of that was even the purpose of this thread. It was about layout and design, not really about the joystick orientation. Somewhere it went off the rails in the discussion about people never deviating from classic designs.

KenToad

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2021, 09:56:33 am »
I mean...as I said, I have a test panel. I've had all 4 of the joysticks at an angle for 10 years and no one has ever said anything. When I originally made it I cut the front of the panel into 4 angles like straight tangent sides of a circle. Each joystick and the buttons were mounted so they were aligned with those tangents. No one has ever said anything about them being weird or aligned improperly or anything. It never even occurred to me that you would orient them all vertically until I saw this forums 'great debate' about it.

But again, none of that was even the purpose of this thread. It was about layout and design, not really about the joystick orientation. Somewhere it went off the rails in the discussion about people never deviating from classic designs.

My take on this is that you're going to find whatever you build playable, so make sure that it suits you aesthetically. People have practical reasons for making rectangular, wing, or aircraft carrier shapes for their control panels, but you've dismissed those practical concerns, probably with good reason, since you already have built something that breaks all the "rules." You and your friends enjoy it regardless, so the priority for building seems to be to just make it look good.

BTW, I get what you're saying about players not complaining about controls. I've never had anyone complain about the controls on my panel. I know they're not perfect and I will complain occasionally about how I would make alterations if I ever redid the thing, but my setup is obviously homemade and no one I know would be rude or honest enough to give me criticism like that.

Regarding angled sticks, I'm on an arcade Facebook group and I've seen people post that the wing sticks of whatever shared projects were wrong because they should be angled, not oriented perpendicularly toward the screen. The point is that there is no consensus and whatever works for you is fine.

Good luck with your project! Post it in the project section and you'll get more feedback there, if you want it.  :)

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2021, 11:39:42 am »
I still don't think any of you have 3 friends that will come over and play more than once a year.

javeryh

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2021, 01:14:02 pm »
I still don't think any of you have 3 friends that will come over and play more than once a year.

No one does. 

People tend to do things in life "just in case" no matter if it is practical not.  "I need a big dining room table for the holidays!" or "we need a bigger house so the in-laws have a place to sleep" or "I need a 4P arcade cabinet for when I have friends over twice a year", etc.  Planning for fringe use cases is often a waste of money, IMO.  I am also guilty of this behavior though - I have to tell myself I don't need X, Y or Z even though I could have used it that one time that is unlikely to happen again.

As for OP, if the slightly angled sticks work then go for it.  It is your machine.  This doesn't make it correct, it's just fine in your case.  I do think we should always be giving out the same advice to people asking the same questions over and over.  This is a settled issue - really it is - and for people that aren't sure they can always test it out themselves.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 01:17:12 pm by javeryh »

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Re: Four Player Pedestal Design Questions/Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2021, 01:18:39 pm »
I still don't think any of you have 3 friends that will come over and play more than once a year.

No one does. 

People tend to do things in life "just in case" no matter if it is practical not.  "I need a big dining room table for the holidays!" or "we need a bigger house so the in-laws have a place to sleep" or "I need a 4P arcade cabinet for when I have friends over twice a year", etc.  Planning for fringe use cases is often a waste of money, IMO.  I am also guilty of this behavior though - I have to tell myself I don't need X, Y or Z even though I could have used it that one time that is unlikely to happen again.
Well said!

People also use the, “But I have three kids!” argument, which I get, but guess what? Those kids are gonna be bored with the machine in about a week and never play it until their friends come over. Those friends will be excited the first time they see the machine, and that’ll be it on subsequent visits.


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