Oled monitor

[khalinguyen191999]

hey guys i noticed that these new monitors are not fully on the market yet
But im thinking about getting one for the arcade cabinet
as this monitor has better quality producing colours than lcd

what you guys think?

[Mike A]

A CRT looks better than both of them.

[Osirus23]

?

OLEDs have been out for years.

[Grasshopper]

OLED displays look great on day one. But the screen burn issue is a deal breaker for me.

[jennifer]

I havent tried running a game on one, however From the side they do hold the color quite nice, (as compared to a cheap LCD.) And wouldnt be scared of trying it...As for Crts Mike they don't make them anymore, even Tvs to hack are getting harder to find...*Jennifer consults her ball of crystal...Your future is coming into focus...Your Crt tube has a little burn, cant seem to find a flyback and the width coil cant be replaced, a quick rejuvenation and, and...dead...Gone...Poof...Get with the new century pal, move on.

[Mike A]

I have a basement full of the supposed "rare" CRTs. I turn down offers to buy more every week. I could buy half a dozen more working arcade monitors right now for 100-150 bucks a piece.

They will last until well after I am dead.

[Howard_Casto]

With proper maintenance they will outlast you, but as we live in a disposable society the amount of people willing and/or able to service old chassis is getting smaller and smaller.  There's actually still one crt manufacturer btw.... saw a retrorgb video on it. 

That being said OLED probably isn't the answer.  You can get ips lcds with 180 degree viewing angles now for a fraction of the cost. 

[Osirus23]

I think OLEDs will turn out great once they come down in price and get their response time down. Their black levels are second to none. Couple a 4K+ panel with some shaders and they'll be the tits.

[Howard_Casto]

I don't think they ever will get the response time down is the thing.  They've been around for quite a while and they still have many of the same limitations they had when they first came out.  If lcd screens had hit a dead end in terms of improvements I think oled would be the standard at this point, but lcds still have a lot of mileage in them apparently.

[shponglefan]

OLED is great if you want true blacks. But for gaming though burn-in would be real concern, especially if you keep playing the same games over and over again.

[Osirus23]

OLED is great if you want true blacks. But for gaming though burn-in would be real concern, especially if you keep playing the same games over and over again.

Not really. CRTs burned in as well and is apparent on a shitload of arcade monitors, but if you just play normally and not leave them on 24/7 it's not an issue.

[javeryh]

OLED is great if you want true blacks. But for gaming though burn-in would be real concern, especially if you keep playing the same games over and over again.

Not really. CRTs burned in as well and is apparent on a shitload of arcade monitors, but if you just play normally and not leave them on 24/7 it's not an issue.

My kids ruined my beautiful 65" plasma from playing too much Minecraft.   

[shponglefan]

Not really. CRTs burned in as well and is apparent on a shitload of arcade monitors, but if you just play normally and not leave them on 24/7 it's not an issue.

CRT burn in isn't exactly desirable either IMHO, although given the original technology we didn't have much a choice. I have seen burn-in on OLED monitors before as well. It really depends on how they are used and also how much of an issue some people view burn-in.

[JimmyU]

Not really. CRTs burned in as well and is apparent on a shitload of arcade monitors, but if you just play normally and not leave them on 24/7 it's not an issue.

CRT burn in isn't exactly desirable either IMHO, although given the original technology we didn't have much a choice. I have seen burn-in on OLED monitors before as well. It really depends on how they are used and also how much of an issue some people view burn-in.

Does MAME still have the ability to simulate CRT screen burn using artwork files?

[jennifer]

Everything would eventually burn giving enough time and attract modes I would assume, But the thing was only 800.00 if memory serves, if it only lasted 4 years or so of hard use well that Imo, would be for the win...The reason Jenn never bought one however is, at W/mart they had a big delicious display of the 6900 series, Sony to the ceilings...But go to grab one and the old Phillips bait and switch gag, For the same money may I add.

[Grasshopper]

In some respects, the burn-in on OLED monitors is worse than the burn-in that you used to see on old CRTs.

That's because on an OLED display, the colours degrade at different rates, with blue degrading most rapidly. Some manufacturers attempt to compensate for this in software, or by making the blue cells bigger than the other colours (at the cost of reducing the effective dot pitch). But you can't eliminate the effect entirely.

So the colours on an OLED display will change over time even if you use a screen saver.

[Mike A]

This forum really needs a Jennifer to English translator.

[jennifer]

In some respects, the burn-in on OLED monitors is worse than the burn-in that you used to see on old CRTs.

That's because on an OLED display, the colours degrade at different rates, with blue degrading most rapidly. Some manufacturers attempt to compensate for this in software, or by making the blue cells bigger than the other colours (at the cost of reducing the effective dot pitch). But you can't eliminate the effect entirely.

So the colours on an OLED display will change over time even if you use a screen saver.

That is curious...As a TV how does it perform?, at the store, it is a hands down no comparison, but what you are saying, it would just degrade rapidly...Would it in your opinion make the 4 year mark without noticeable color change with moderate use?...Perhaps not drive the tint so hard?

[formula409]

Even if you just beat the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of an OLED monitor, so what?

Let's say you buy a 48" LG OLED and mount it in a cabinet vertically. $1,500.

Beat the CRAP out of it for a few years. It starts to develop burn in. 5 years later, you replace it with a similar OLED TV that now costs $800.

Honestly, I don't see the problem. All this computer hardware is cheap disposable crap anyway. At the rate MAME's going with the analog sound emulation, you'll probably have to build a new computer for it 5 years from now anyway.

[Mike A]

1500 bucks is cheap and disposable?

[shponglefan]

That is curious...As a TV how does it perform?, at the store, it is a hands down no comparison, but what you are saying, it would just degrade rapidly...Would it in your opinion make the 4 year mark without noticeable color change with moderate use?...Perhaps not drive the tint so hard?

I've been using an OLED TV for a bit over a year. I haven't noticed any significant degradation to image quality yet and no visible burn-in. I did make sure when setting it up to dial down the brightness which will help mitigate image degradation. My hope is to get a good 5 years out of this set before I think about replacing it.

Conversely, I've also used a work laptop with an OLED screen. After about 2 years it developed visible burn-in for certain things (e.g. Windows interface items).

This experience taught me that OLED is probably okay for TV use, especially if you tend to watch a variety of things and don't have the same things being constantly displayed in one spot on the screen (e.g. station logos). But for computer use, I'm sticking to LCD because the burn-in on a computer screen is highly annoying.

[Osirus23]

I did make sure when setting it up to dial down the brightness which will help mitigate image degradation.

You should do this with all new TVs anyway as most are set to torch mode from the factory.

[formula409]

1500 bucks is cheap and disposable?

In 2020? Yes, pretty much. 1,500 every few years to keep an arcade cabinet going that can play literally tens of thousands of games is pretty much nothing IMO.

[Mike A]

You are seriously out of touch.

I built my whole machine for less than that. Spending that much on a monitor every few years is crazy talk.

I haven't even opened up my machine since the first week after completion in 2016. It is maintenance free...so far.

The first machine I built was cheaper than that and it lasted ten years until i disassembled it.

Both machines saw steady use.

Oh. And both cabs used one of those crazy "unreliable" CRTs.

What does the number of games it plays have to do with the longevity of the monitor?

[jennifer]

You are seriously out of touch.

I built my whole machine for less than that. Spending that much on a monitor every few years is crazy talk.

I haven't even opened up my machine since the first week after completion in 2016. It is maintenance free...so far.

The first machine I built was cheaper than that and it lasted ten years until i disassembled it.

Both machines saw steady use.

Oh. And both cabs used one of those crazy "unreliable" CRTs.

What does the number of games it plays have to do with the longevity of the monitor?

There is nothing "out of touch" about it, new state of the art builds cost money, and a lot of it, 1500.00  every few years is high ya, but that would most likely be a massive screen, as most smaller New Tvs dont cost that much, and the prices drop with time like everything else...I have Crts, lots of them, and yes I use them when I can, or more to the point when I have to, as they are really heavy,  Yes you can still buy them for a Cnote, (I just sold 15 of them) But the parts are not "lifetime as you say...Flat-screen makes for a much cleaner modern build IMO.

[Mike A]

Where do you list your CRTs?

When people ask where to look I can point them to you if you are local to them.

How does a flat screen make a cleaner build?

[jennifer]

A pedestal style cab, like Blazing Angles (For example) has nice clean lines by design,  put a Giant Crt on there and it becomes a sloppy build, with little imagination...I dont list or sell stuff, and as result Jenn has alot of it, monitors in particular, sometimes when I need space for a new project I make a few calls on my shortlist and sell off some stuff (Thx for the offer though) I live in Nd.(us) and around here crts and complete cabs are getting quite hard to find, as far as specific goes.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm with Mike on this one.... $1,500 for just the monitor is crazy talk, especially if it isn't going to last.  Not counting artwork I can build a complete cab for around $500, even if I choose to use an "expensive" lcd screen.   $1,500 would be a fully maxed out cab with every bell and whistle imaginable.

I'm not in the crt only camp btw.... I like lcds for a lot of applications, particularly the newer ips screens.  Oleds on the other hand.... nope.... too expensive and too many flaws. 

[jennifer]

Well, depending on what you are building, (and Remeber a1500.00 tv is probibally  very large, more of a wall mount application)...My builds usually come in around 7k, and capped at 10.

[Mike A]

I would like to see one of those builds. They must be really snazzy. Any pics?

[jennifer]

My last one was Jenns Hot new pin, although that tread died on the vine, that ended at 6.5k and 10 laying on the bench, Making screens, paint, bla,bla yes 500.00 don't build stuff like that start to finish.

[Mike A]

Did you say you are in North Dakota Jennifer?

That is where my parents are from.

Which area of wasteland are you located in?

[formula409]

Keep in mind that 5 years is an extremely pessimistic duration. Unless you just utterly destroy the monitor (ie. don't use a screen saver when you're back in your frontend), it'd last way longer than that.

Regardless, $1,500 every few years for a hobby is basically nothing regardless.

[Howard_Casto]

My last one was Jenns Hot new pin, although that tread died on the vine, that ended at 6.5k and 10 laying on the bench, Making screens, paint, bla,bla yes 500.00 don't build stuff like that start to finish.

Now hold up.  Pinball and Arcade machines aren't the same thing.  We have to keep things in context.  $1500 for a table is nothing, while $1500 for an arcade cab generally means it's factory fresh restored. 

[jennifer]

True,True, That was just my last project.The next one in the works is a fully composite two piece Cab... 6 sheets of coosa board, (500.00 apice with shipping) 35 gallons of laminating resin (around 100.00 a gal), 3 gallons of waxed gelcoat, 180 feet of 1708 fiberglass, 800.00 for 16 sheets red laminate, 2 gallons 2/1 epoxy (300.00)...2k into boardset, and monitor, 600.00 (before rebuild) for flightstick, 4 square ft tinted safety glass, 400.00 in stock aluminium and welding gas, and around 3k for junk parts (for the art scans, and making new screens...Now that is a true arcade machine destined for the stars.

[jennifer]

but look at that close...The monitor, and board already exceeds the budget of 1500.00...So ya, depends on what you build man😬

[Mike A]

Sounds interesting. Any pics?

[jennifer]

Just a pile right now, the marquee art is giving me trouble, The monitor is going from 19" to 27", and I have to expand the bezel, and still make the screens for the new print...But I secretly work on it in the night.

[Mike A]

Cool. Got any pics.

[jennifer]

Jennifer aint going to bother doing a build thread on this one giving its long term complexity, seasonal dry times, And the fact this is somebody else's thread on Oled monitors...However, pretty proud of this, not easy to find in this condition anymore, Actually even found a couple more out back for parts, and a extra NOS centering bellows for you guys that know what you are looking at.😉

[Mike A]

Start a build thread. Post some pics of something you already finished. We need more projects posted here.

[Howard_Casto]

I can't talk since I build all kinds of crap and rarely post it. 

[Jimbo]

1500 bucks is cheap and disposable?

In 2020? Yes, pretty much. 1,500 every few years to keep an arcade cabinet going that can play literally tens of thousands of games is pretty much nothing IMO.

Wowsers.  I would never consider paying anywhere near that much for a monitor for an arcade cabinet.  I'll stick with my Hantarex Polo that cost me £200 14 years ago and has been running fine ever since.

[Mike A]

Jennifer you really need to post some pics of what a 10,000 dollar MAME machine looks like. I am intensely curious. Start a thread and post pics of ones you have already completed.

Nobody has posted a tutorial here on hand winding CRT yokes. I would really like to see some of that. I am thinking of tackling it myself.

You need to post some of the stuff you are working on too Howard.

[Jimbo]

I have a vector XY kit, and I need to tackle rewinding the yoke on a CRT I want to use with it at some point.  C'mon, someone show us how it's done

There was a video on youtube from Arcade Jason doing it too.

[Mike A]

Jennifer did like a hundred of them. She has to be the most experienced.

[javeryh]

1500 bucks is cheap and disposable?

In 2020? Yes, pretty much. 1,500 every few years to keep an arcade cabinet going that can play literally tens of thousands of games is pretty much nothing IMO.

That seems like a lot to me and it's not because I couldn't afford it.

[jennifer]

That was a hack project that went on for years to get right, and in the course of experimenting yes probably did do 100 of those darn things...However the math is done now (somewhat, but it is not critical perfect in terms of the induction since the hv compensates) and it is crazy easy...Arcade Jason is a good vid on the subject, that is the real deal, I notice he also has one on giant color vector tubes also (something I happen to be working on) Jenn will have to check that out when she gets a minute....So excited!

[Mike A]

I still want to see one of those 10,000 dollar MAME machines.

[jennifer]

Pouring 40 gallons of resin is a project that requires temp control that falls into a relatively small window (dries too fast, or to slow) the boat guys deal with that, and I used to make Car bodys back in the day. But today not so much, and need perfect days...It also stinks, really intense chem stench, not really a thread for typical arcade builds...Full composite is 30% lighter than its plywood couterpart, The reason behind it (cost be darned) is with the larger monitor, Real glass (on a Star Wars cab) and the steel wing struts for the conversion should bring the weight of the machine back into the ballpark of a Star Wars cab...This is not a typical build...But I will put up some pics when the cab is built.

[Mike A]

I would like to see pics of some of the completed ones.

[bperkins01]

Pouring 40 gallons of resin is a project that requires temp control that falls into a relatively small window (dries too fast, or to slow) the boat guys deal with that, and I used to make Car bodys back in the day. But today not so much, and need perfect days...It also stinks, really intense chem stench, not really a thread for typical arcade builds...Full composite is 30% lighter than its plywood couterpart, The reason behind it (cost be darned) is with the larger monitor, Real glass (on a Star Wars cab) and the steel wing struts for the conversion should bring the weight of the machine back into the ballpark of a Star Wars cab...This is not a typical build...But I will put up some pics when the cab is built.

I've built a few boats - who's epoxy do you like to use?  I've done a considerable amount of vacuum bagging..  You can show some

[jennifer]

I like Total Boat, and usually get it from Jamestown Dist., They get it shipped fast, laying it by hand is really my only options, I am thinking...I looked into that bagging system during a carbon fiber project and really wished I had used it, since carbon is really hard to do by hand since you can't see it wet out.

[bperkins01]

I vacuumed bagged my 23' boat with a 4CFM pump..  one small section at a time..
You don't need much to do it.. 
- poly sheeting
- 100% dress liner (fabric store - very inexpensive)
- quilt batting
- duct tape
- modeling clay..

Can't even see how you can do carbon fiber w/o it..
a bagging "system" is not required.. 
A vacuum pump rated for a continuous duty cycle (mine was a Gast if I remember)..  that's it..

[Mike A]

Still no pics? I am very disappointed.

Your stuff sounds unique.

[jennifer]

It does look like fun, just pump it in there, carbon panels would be the only way to do it, but generally I just do wraps, and find if you just oversaturate it is generally not a problem, just squeeze out the extra... On glass though, (especially on large 4X8 sheets) rolling it and laying it by hand should be quite straitforward since I am using a poly laminating resin (quite forgiving) with 5 layers of glass, and the a sheet of red formica on both sides...Bringing it up to a perfect 3/4" (for T moulding)...Mike, this is a long, long project, Jenns last build in fact, a culmination of skills and years of building cabs, It would only be a thread of literally watching paint dry.

[Mike A]

I keep asking for pics of builds you have already completed.

[Arroyo]

I remember seeing this thread and  being perplexed by a lot of misconceptions about OLED, like input lag and screen burn.  I came across this video and the guy does a really nice job of breaking down how an OLED works in a gaming environment:

[wp34]

I remember seeing this thread and  being perplexed by a lot of misconceptions about OLED, like input lag and screen burn.  I came across this video and the guy does a really nice job of breaking down how an OLED works in a gaming environment:

Thanks for posting that.  The high-speed video comparison was really interesting. 

[csnow]

They are still too large unless you have a lot of space for depth.  I have a pedestal that I would love to have an OLED but even with the "small" 48" LG that puts you back at least 4 to 6 feet off the wall for proper viewing distance for gaming.  If they had a 32" OLED, I would be all over it.

[Arroyo]

They are still too large unless you have a lot of space for depth.  I have a pedestal that I would love to have an OLED but even with the "small" 48" LG that puts you back at least 4 to 6 feet off the wall for proper viewing distance for gaming.  If they had a 32" OLED, I would be all over it.

Rotate it vertically and mask off the top and bottom.  Solves all problems.

[csnow]

I still play classics on arcade monitors.  My use case would be a pedestal with modern consoles so vertical orientation doesn't work.

[Osirus23]

I still play classics on arcade monitors.  My use case would be a pedestal with modern consoles so vertical orientation doesn't work.

Same. As long as I can still get a CRT arcade monitor there is no contest.

[csnow]

OLED is pretty darn good though - I am a big fan.  I wish they weren't capped at 60hz.  The would make for one sexy MAME big screen with proper scanlines.

[Arroyo]

They are?

https://www.lg.com/us/experience-tvs/oled-tv/features

[csnow]

They are?

https://www.lg.com/us/experience-tvs/oled-tv/features

Pretty darn good or capped at 60hz

All the info I could find on the LG and new Vizio models shows them capped.  Did you find something contrary?  I would love to be wrong on this one.

[Arroyo]

Did you find something contrary?  I would love to be wrong on this one.

Well the link I put above markets that they do:



I would be surprised if they would put that out there and it weren't true.  But I have not read up on testing for it.

[csnow]

After reading the link I remember.  It is 120hz with HDMI 2.1 only.  When I was looking 2.1 wasn't available yet so with anything other than 2.1 its 60hz - my bad.  I knew the 60hz was stuck in my head for some reason.  I don't think there are any 2.1 HDMI cards out yet are there or in stock if they did make it out.

[Arroyo]

Looks like the newer cards support it:

https://www.cablematters.com/blog/HDMI/hdmi-2-1-cables-for-rtx-3090-graphics-card

But what is probably a bigger deal with these panels is the support for G-Sync and Freesync. 

If you combine this with GroovyMame you can get accurate refresh rates on the old games and therefore substantially reduce input lag.  All without having to setup frame delay on a per game basis, which without G-Sync or Freesync is a time consuming pain in the but.

[csnow]

Agreed on the Gsync.  Those two cards are sold out and no one knows when they will be back in stock.  HDMI 2.1 is still somewhat of a unicorn and very expensive.  It will probably be another year before its mainstream.  Hopefully in a couple of years OLED will make it down to the computer monitor sizing.  Exciting opportunities on the horizon for sure.  I just bought two 25" Wells 7k monitors for my projects.  I have a couple of burn free tubes and extra chassis.  I am hoping these will provide years of use.

[schmerzkaufen]

@cs : Yeah that's what I was concerned about when we discussed it in private, as I suspected you really need a card with 2.1

...or again see if the set can do 4K@61Hz desktop (or better 62~63), too bad the LG OLED owners I asked that about never got how important an information that is and none cared to help.
People will make hour-long carefully edited videos to boast their latest fancy product purchase, but ask them something specific like making a custom mode or two and test the effectiveness -matter of minutes- well, they will totally freak out and run away.

About monitor-sized OLED I wouldn't be as optimistic, people have been wishing and saying 'oh surely in a couple of years or something' for like since OLED TVs hit the market. The only mainstream model that 'kinda' came out was 30" cost like $5,000 and was cancelled almost immediately due to unsustainable burn-in issues.
48" is just the finest they managed to make so far, the problem is that they're dead set on it being at least 4K, while a WQHD would certainly be the much easier, cheaper, and be welcome. *sigh*

I see you have probably dropped the LCD idea to re-stock CRTs instead, which is a good idea.
LCD is workable but to get the best of a lesser solution like that you need to mind every aspect of it, and generally people don't suspect how complex the whole thing can be.
As an example it took me two~three years and a number of disappointing useless purchases before, plus a lot of hair-pulling moments and solliciting Calamity's patience, to achieve a 'decent' LCD setup (not even including the unhealthy amount of hours making custom CRT effects, filters, and shaders)

Today the GroovyMAME part for flat panels where involved has become easier, but putting that aside VRR is more broadly available with larger monitors and TVs too to make it even more attractive...
...really?
Because even with that "VRR MAME-ing" or retro-gaming on the whole is actually still not as convenient and plug-and-play as some people imagine because of the limitations we know, and picking the right display+gpu is not simply a matter of minutes reading a mere features list or reviews.
(reviews are useful, but they never test some technical areas retro-gaming hardware and software users actually require)

[zestyphresh]

I'm biased as it's what I used on my machine but a late generation plasma screen (i.e. the UK 50/60 Panasonic models, might be different in the US) is an improvement over LED (in most cases) where a CRT is undesirable. You don't get the really slim bezels, they are heavier and they kick out a bit of heat, but the colour reproduction (especially blacks) and motion are excellent. They are also pretty cheap - the 42" GT50 I used was only £50 (~$70 maybe?), the bloody glass was more expensive.

Screen burn is pretty non-existent on these too, i've absolutely rinsed games with fixed UI's on the one we have for our main TV and I haven't seen any in the 6 years we've had it.

[schmerzkaufen]

If you can find plamas like these then sure, they're arguably even better than OLED due to the better motion.

Being rather old most of them have some input lag, yet few have been reliably tested for that, and anyways the better motion again weighs favourably in the overall perception so it's rarely a big issue.

I've considered that solution before but wasn't lucky in my search, in short most used plasmas I've found around in my country were bad/trashed.

[formula409]

The new AMD cards will support VRR with these OLEDs, too, and availability might be better.

[csnow]

I see you have probably dropped the LCD idea to re-stock CRTs instead, which is a good idea.
LCD is workable but to get the best of a lesser solution like that you need to mind every aspect of it, and generally people don't suspect how complex the whole thing can be

Yes, I decided to stick with the CRTs in the arcade and am looking in the local ads on Craigslist and Offer Up for a good CRT for consoles.  After my last chassis went out causing one of my more popular machines to be down on a planned family/friend get together, I was ready to throw in the towel and move to something with "less" headaches but provide a very convincing experience. After our discussions and an eye bleeding amount of reading on various forums and YouTube vids, I came to the same conclusion you did.  It is a lot more complex and expensive endeavor than I had ever imagined (to do it right).  I did learn a lot which was worth the efforts.  I do want to publicly thank you for all the information you gave me and the nudges of what to go read further.  I just decided to bite the bullet and go ahead buy a few of what I consider outrageous monitor prices and  be done with it.  The extra chassis I have will be rebuild and kept on the shelf (climate controlled) for spares.  I standardized on the Wells 7k and it will be in all my machines, so swapping stuff and managing spares will be easier.  I just turned 50, so I am hoping to get another twenty years out of these dinosaurs.

The new AMD cards will support VRR with these OLEDs, too, and availability might be better.

The LGs will be a great option once 2.1 is readily available.  Right now you couldn't buy a 2.1 even if you were willing to pay the $1200-$1500 price tag.  I have no doubt they are coming, but I needed an immediate solution.  I assume it will be a summer before seeing sub $500 2.1 cards, maybe longer.