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Author Topic: Frame Delay Settings  (Read 685 times)

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Cowslanlr

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Frame Delay Settings
« on: July 20, 2019, 11:47:27 am »
I am having some trouble understanding how to properly determine what frame delay settings to use. Right now I have tried a few games with frame delay set to 9 and everything seems to be running just as smooth as when I have frame delay set to 0. My concern is that I had read in another thread in this forum:
If -fd is set too high it will miss the sync pulse causing an additional frame of lag. In theory, if -fd is set so high that the sync pulse is consistently missed for each frame, it will appear to run perfectly smooth, despite the added latency.
(Link)

So, with this in mind, how can I determine if I have the proper frame delay settings for my machine or if I have it set too high and everything just appears to be running as it should?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 12:00:35 pm by Cowslanlr »

buttersoft

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2019, 08:05:40 pm »
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133194.msg1648384.html#msg1648384

Note that the commandline in the quoted area is correct save that you want the -nothrottle parameter as well, and that logging must be done from a cmd prompt commandline can cannot be run from a shortcut or frontend.

If you get frame delay wrong the game will usually have a very noticeable tic in it - applied to audio, video and also the input and feel of the game while playing.

I think we need to add this one to the FAQ, if it hasn't been mentioned...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 09:00:48 pm by buttersoft »

Cowslanlr

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2019, 10:21:17 pm »
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133194.msg1648384.html#msg1648384

Note that the commandline in the quoted area is correct save that you want the -nothrottle parameter as well, and that logging must be done from a cmd prompt commandline can cannot be run from a shortcut or frontend.

If you get frame delay wrong the game will usually have a very noticeable tic in it - applied to audio, video and also the input and feel of the game while playing.

I think we need to add this one to the FAQ, if it hasn't been mentioned...

So, I had a hard time following some of that info but, if I am understanding this correctly if my average game speed is around 250% unthrottled, then the the proper setting for frame delay should be around 2?

buttersoft

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2019, 08:12:33 pm »
yyy...ess. Remembering that if the game has an average speed of ~250% but you can watch it dip to, say 150% at times during gameplay, you want to get frame delay for 150%.

It's important to test settings are you apply them. And to remember down the line that if one of your games develops a hiccup to come and try lowering the frame delay. Windows updates can have interesting effects :)

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 02:02:35 am »
Honestly I just play and adjust the slider until it feels right. Then if adjustments are needed (vsync_offset if tearing appears) I adapt from there either creating a dedicated .ini and/or reducing frame_delay 1 step if that doesn't work well-enough.

I often wonder though if some games can't deal with the higher frame_delay settings I'd want (like 7, 8, 9) because the game's properties are the limiting factor, or because my CPU is bottlenecking, or because something else I'm not aware of.
That, isn't clear for me yet.
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Cowslanlr

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2019, 10:40:13 am »
If you get frame delay wrong the game will usually have a very noticeable tic in it - applied to audio, video and also the input and feel of the game while playing.

It's important to test settings are you apply them.

Honestly I just play and adjust the slider until it feels right.

I am still at a loss here... I am not sure how to test the settings when, as I mentioned, I do not noticed any difference between running a game with frame delay 0 and frame delay 9. The game seems to run perfectly fine no matter what settings I use. But, I know there must be something I am missing because according to everything I have read, there is no way my computer should be powerful enough to run with frame delay 9. The average speed I get for most games unthrottled is only about 250%.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 01:37:56 pm by Cowslanlr »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 11:02:37 am »
You should at least post a log, otherwise I doubt anyone will be able to help you see cleared in this. \_(ツ)_/
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Cowslanlr

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 12:03:49 pm »
You should at least post a log, otherwise I doubt anyone will be able to help you see cleared in this. \_(ツ)_/

I am attaching an error.log file for Armed Police Batrider running with frame delay 9. I had to chance the extension to ".txt" in order to upload the file.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 12:20:06 pm »
that's not it.

bring out a command prompt and type for instance;

mame64.exe -v batrider > batrider.txt

the game will start, leave it running a moment until at least the attract mode

after that you'll find a batrider.log which you'll find in the main folder, convert ot txt and post
GroovyMAME oddball LCD user: W7 64, viewsonic vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, Rx 570, crt_emudriver 2.0b15

Cowslanlr

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2019, 12:29:36 pm »
that's not it.

bring out a command prompt and type for instance;

mame64.exe -v batrider > batrider.txt

the game will start, leave it running a moment until at least the attract mode

after that you'll find a batrider.log which you'll find in the main folder, convert ot txt and post

I realized that was not the proper log a minute after posting it. Just generated the proper log file and am attaching it to this post.

cyb

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2019, 04:23:33 pm »
Since you're using 120hz refresh, triplebuffer is activated, which is incompatible with frame delay. See this post for more info:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,157113.msg1650732.html#msg1650732

Cowslanlr

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2019, 11:50:37 pm »
Since you're using 120hz refresh, triplebuffer is activated, which is incompatible with frame delay. See this post for more info:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,157113.msg1650732.html#msg1650732

Ooooooh, okay! Thank you so much, this information is very helpful. That explains why I wasn't noticing any difference while using frame delay.

buttersoft

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2019, 08:45:15 pm »
lol, that explains it, thanks cyb

cyb

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2019, 04:23:00 pm »
No problem guys. I found that forum post when trying to figure out why I was having the same issue on my VGA monitor.

This is why we need a wiki/faq...imagine if this forum and the backups somehow got wiped out! There's so much knowledge here... :-\

lettuce

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2019, 05:28:26 pm »
does frame delay setting work if your using a GSync monitor??

digitron

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2019, 01:25:49 pm »
Is there a way to enable auto frame delay so that it always goes to the max 100% right before it recognizes frame drops so that you don't have to set it every single rom?
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2019, 02:06:19 pm »
IIRC Calamity has design ideas for that but we have to give the man time.  ;)
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digitron

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2019, 02:09:57 pm »
IIRC Calamity has design ideas for that but we have to give the man time.  ;)

Good to know! Thanks =)
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Mantrox

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 05:49:51 am »
Hey there folks,
quick question about this feature.

When you determine the best frame delay value for a specific game and set it, which of these options should be turned on/off to achieve the best results:
Vertical Sync
Keep Aspect Ratio
Sync game to vertical sync <- I can't remember the exact name of the feature; in the video settings when mame is running, it's the one before vsync.

I just run into a bit of a problem trying to play Battle Garegga. the input lag is way too high and it's throwing me off.
I'm running the latest groovymame on a windows 10 machine connected to an arcade monitor doing 240p.

In case someone already has some optimized settings for Raizing games, by all mean, send your knowledge my way :D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:58:21 am by Mantrox »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 09:26:52 am »
You don't have to touch the 'vertical sync' setting, leave it on 0

Instead in Groovy there is a setting called 'autosync' which should be left on 1

Now read below:


By default all games that are 2Hz away from 60Hz (lower than 58Hz) will be automatically handled by 'triplebuffer' (though faster than in baseline MAME)
This is intended to conserve the correct speed and avoid too great acceleration when 60 is forced by autosync.
In such cases the 'frame_delay' feature is disabled, and the scrollings aren't smooth.

So IF you still prefer sub-58Hz to be forced to 60 and therefore 'frame_delay' to work, you can increase the 'sync_refresh_tolerance' setting.
Default is 2 (Hz), if you set for instance 2.5 then more games will be included in the smooth & frame_delay appliable group (like the 1gen Cave games and I believe the Raizing too)
You can increase sync_refresh_tolerance further to include more games (3, 3.5, 4, etc) if you wish.


PS: if you're running on a properly set up Groovy with a compatible AMD gpu and CRT_Emudriver though, you shouldn't need to do this anyway, since all games should be running at their actual real refresh rate and speed, in which case there is no need for Groovy to force to 60, and logically the sync_refresh_tolerance setting isn't needed.
So you problem could be elsewhere, dunno.
Post a LOG and a copy of your mame.ini  ;)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:35:08 am by schmerzkaufen »
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Mantrox

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 11:24:11 am »
I'm not 100% sure my setup is correctly configurated.
I'll try to post a log later today.

I do have an AMD gpu running CRT_Emudriver with the modes installed.
But there are so many combinations of settings that have knock on effects, that i'm not sure if everything is 100% correct.

Currently i am trying to ascertain if running Garegga or any Raizing game that uses the same driver can be run in Groovymame without tearing and input lag. That's the main objective.
What i noticed yesterday for example was that the faster ships in the game are almost uncontrolable, on the groovy setup, but when i changed immediately to the ps4 version, the difference in lag was very noticeable.

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:29:37 am by Mantrox »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Frame Delay Settings
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 01:38:25 pm »
Garegga has about 3 frames of natural lag iirc, but that one you can't touch, Groovy can only eliminate the additional lag that's running on top.

i.e

MAME (official) BGFX -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 5fr = 8 frames
MAME (official) d3d -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 3fr = 6 frames

Groovy BGFX -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 3fr = 6 farmes
Groovy d3d9ex (default) -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 2fr = 5 frames
Groovy d3d9ex w/ frame_delay 1 -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 1fr = 4 frames
Groovy d3d9ex w/ frame_delay 5 -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 0.5fr = 3.5 frames
Groovy d3d9ex w/ frame_delay 9 -> bgaregga 3fr + vsync 1.6ms = 3 frames + 1.6 miliseconds (1/10th of a frame)

frame_delay 9 often requires a powerful PC, and sometimes it's not even the best setting for the right input timing.
but you can surely get somewhere around 7~8 and that'll hardly make a difference, in any case that's way under 1 frame of lag.

Of course, that works only if the Groovy config is all fine. ^^

EDIT: tearing too, there is none if set up correctly, there's the vsync_offset for that when you see some.
Groovy is basically flawless with the proper setup and settings, and as far as official mame's drivers/emulation is, of course.

(I mean maybe MAMEdev reverse-engineered and coded that driver wrong, making it lag more than the actual pcb, but you would have to prove it with direct measurements from that very pcb...otherwise they will tell you they have no reason not to trust their own code)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:45:00 pm by schmerzkaufen »
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