Dpd mars gun is the next gen of light guns

[ryoken]

The Pdp Mars light gun with low power infrared laser is in my opinion the most accurate. faster response and can be used from any distance on any Lcd Tv... is also wireless and cheap only need 1 camera to handle 4 guns. They will come at 30$ per only the gun or 80  with the camera and gun plus 2 games. Sounds like a really good deal and expected to be released any time soon this year.



at this moment is coming one more alternative. the SINDEN GUN  have potential but putting the camera on the gun will raise  the price for a system with multiple  guns ( i guess  we can use multiple  sinden guns on one pc but not sure yet)

[lightgungamer]

I'm really excited about both these projects. The Sinden one looks great because it requires nothing else other than the guns and also the creator is putting loads of work into getting emulators to support the guns. He is always posting about improving the Pi light gun support. I think the Mars guns will end up being cheaper and probably more polished due to being backed by a big company. Also the PDP Mars light guns are wireless (maybe bluetooth?) which is always better than having wires!

[ryoken]

Can't  wait to try them Both. Wonder when they will be available.

[Titchgamer]

Be interested to see more of these.

But the wireless thing would be a concern for me.

[ryoken]

I don't see how the wireless could be a concern.

[Titchgamer]

I don't see how the wireless could be a concern.

Lag.

[ryoken]

The technology behind the Mars and the Sinden is very similar. But the Mars only  need a Ir laser pointer for the tracking of the gun, and the camera is connected by cable doing the rest so no lag for be wireless on the tracking.  The only real advantage in my opinion of the Sinden gun, is the person behind that project because he wants to make his gun compatible with  everything.  Which i don't think is the case with the Mars.

[Titchgamer]

Hmm fair enough then.

I would love to give one a go, But as howard mentioned the screen itself may cause issues to.

But we will wait and see!

Having met Andy Sinden and had a go with his gun I know what to expect.
Also as well as wanting to get it to work on lots of systems he is passionate about light gun games so thats always a plus for me.

[ryoken]

One thing is sure, i will get both. Only hope don't take too long to start shipping  them. Otherwise i might invest on a VR setup which is hands down the most accurate and faster response light gun experience at the moment if you try the games like Robot recall or space pirate.  You will know what I'm talking about.

[Titchgamer]

One thing is sure, i will get both. Only hope don't take too long to start shipping  them. Otherwise i might invest on a VR setup which is hands down the most accurate and faster response light gun experience at the moment. Sadly all these light gun will become obsolete with the arrive of AR and VR in the next 5 or 10 years...

I dunno, I have Farpoint on the PSVR and its a bloody amazing game but its not 100% accurate and can sort of loose calibration.

You dont tend to notice as your vision is effectively out of calibration the same but its there for sure.

As for obsolete, They already are effectively as few people can play them anymore without PS move etc which is naff tbh.

But I will still be playing the originals on My CRT till either I or the TV/consoles die :p

[ryoken]

Have any idea of when can we buy and get the sinden gun. I don't  know like 1, 2, 3 months or end of this year. The waiting drive me crazy i will really love to try them now!

[Titchgamer]

Have any idea of when can we buy and get the sinden gun. I don't  know like 1, 2, 3 months or end of this year. The waiting drive me crazy i will really love to try them now!

The kick starter for it is going live next month.

Not sure what his time scale plans are after that.

Will basically be manufacturing time as I think he already has the PCB and hardware.

With the exception of Pi compatibility etc I think the software is pretty much sorted but  thats all software updates anyways so easy to do after the fact.

[ryoken]

Where is Andy from? He looks like dutch

Have

The kick starter for it is going live next month.

Not sure what his time scale plans are after that.

Will basically be manufacturing time as I think he already has the PCB and hardware.

With the exception of Pi compatibility etc I think the software is pretty much sorted but  thats all software updates anyways so easy to do after the fact.

[Titchgamer]

Where is Andy from? He looks like dutch

Have

The kick starter for it is going live next month.

Not sure what his time scale plans are after that.

Will basically be manufacturing time as I think he already has the PCB and hardware.

With the exception of Pi compatibility etc I think the software is pretty much sorted but  thats all software updates anyways so easy to do after the fact.

Nah hes English mate lol

[ryoken]

I live in the Netherlands.

[dgrace]

Do we know if the MAR IR Station will have to sit on top of the TV (i.e. like wiimote sensor bar, Aimtrak, etc.)? I only ask because it might be hard to fit into an arcade cabinet given how big it is. Looks pretty sweet though. Can't wait to learn more about it, especially if it could be compatible with emulators (i.e. Teknoparrot, MAME, Supermodel, etc).

[SammyWI]

Do we know if the MAR IR Station will have to sit on top of the TV (i.e. like wiimote sensor bar, Aimtrak, etc.)? I only ask because it might be hard to fit into an arcade cabinet given how big it is. Looks pretty sweet thought. Can't wait to learn more about it, especially if it could be compatible with emulators (i.e. Teknoparrot, MAME, Supermodel, etc).

It is a camera that needs to point at the screen.  So it will need to be out in front of the screen which brings a different set of issues.

[ryoken]

In the meantime waiting for the release of their light guns will be nice if we can get access to the software used by Chinese guy on YouTube doing basically the same but with a Ps3 camera aimed to the screen and in the diy light gun a wireless mouse for the inputs bottoms with a infrared laser pointer. I find on Ebay these Ir pointer

https://www.ebay.com/itm/980nm-5mW-IR-Infra-Red-Laser-Pointer-Pen/141364503544?epid=1831350055&hash=item20e9fb23f8:g:nzIAAOxy6MBSRbFW

The ps3  camera are very cheap also a wireless mouse. And any gun shell.
This setup can be very cheap. But it is worthless without the software to get the position of the laser with the camera. I try to reach the guy on the video but don't reply the message.

[Howard_Casto]

I can probably do the software part but the hardware is what I'm worried about.  Not sure what wavelength of ir laser is safe... it'll definitely reflect back in your eye at some angles.  A ps3 camera is a poor choice because it uses homebrew drivers, but I'm not sure what camera would be best. 

[ryoken]

I can probably do the software part but the hardware is what I'm worried about.  Not sure what wavelength of ir laser is safe... it'll definitely reflect back in your eye at some angles.  A ps3 camera is a poor choice because it uses homebrew drivers, but I'm not sure what camera would be best.

I try the ps3 camera with freetrack and frames rates are very high can go to 640x480@60/75fps and 320x240@125. The laser need to be modified for lower power maybe a resistor and dimming the beam until the minimum to still be detected by the camera. Otherwise an ir flashlight  with adjustable focus can do the trick

[Howard_Casto]

I don't know if the ir lasers are safe even dimmed or I would have already done it.  In regards to the camera, like I said, the ps3 camera uses custom drivers.... we don't want that because if a windows update breaks the drivers we are at the mercy of whoever wrote those drivers to get it working again.  imho it needs to be a HID camera so no drivers are necessary and, theoretically at least, it'll work for years to come without hassle.

640x480 sounds adequate, but I don't know if it is.  With the camera mounted perfectly where the monitor is straight on and fills the screen we have a resolution of 640x480... which will work for most games, but realistically, to mount the camera on a standard mame cab while getting the whole screen in there, the alignment isn't going to be ideal.... It'll view the monitor at an angle, possibly an extreme angle, which means that one side of the monitor is only going to take up a percentage of the screen, and whatever percentage that is, it'll be the maximum resolution of that area.  So realistically you'll probably get a useable resolution of 320x240, which, again, is probably ok for old games, but it might not be enough for newer pc games.  Mind you there aren't a lot of pc based games, but occasionally we'll get a gem released like typing (house) of the dead overkill.  That games logic is 640x480 (the resolution of the wii, where it was originally released) so we've potentially halved the gun's resolution. 

I do think it's doable, but it'll be more complex than you think.  If you guys want to get together a parts list I would be willing to try, but I don't want to spend a lot of money.  Assuming these guns are released, they don't seem super expensive to me. 

[Titchgamer]

I dont think IR lasers are dangerous per se.
I have a large IR laser torch on my night vision scope.

But what they do is white out camera optics unless they are dimmed or filtered.
Much the same effect as if you shone a torch in your eye.

Thats the thing I suspect will give issues with IR lasers used for tracking as well as false input from sunlight etc.

[Howard_Casto]

I dunno… infra red radiation is pretty bad for the retinas... I just don't know how bad.  From my experiments with visible lasers, you'll get a nice tight dot 99.9% of the time, but if the pointer is at an extreme angle, or maybe you hit your bezel or something you might get a flash in the eye.  With visible lasers this isn't a big deal as you'll just blink, but with an ir laser you'll just keep your eye open because you can't see it. 

Anyway, ideally we need a hid camera with good resolution and frame rate that maybe plays nice with Arduino or the pi.  I could use a software driver initially, but ideally it'd be nice to get someone to help me and take my parsing code and get it to work on an Arduino so it'd be a hardware device... that'd just increase compatibility and reduce the overhead on the pc.  I've been thinking about it, and assuming the camera is mounted so that the monitor image is only skewed on one side I think I can translate dot position to proper coordinates in an efficient manner.  2p support would be more complex, but one thing at a time. 

[Titchgamer]

Well basicly if you use a Class 1 IR laser you are fine in terms of danger to your eyes.

Class 2 is unlikely to damage your eyes but could do if you do something stupid with it.

Class 3 ono isa bad idea.

[SammyWI]

Well basicly if you use a Class 1 IR laser you are fine in terms of danger to your eyes.

Class 2 is unlikely to damage your eyes but could do if you do something stupid with it.

Class 3 ono isa bad idea.

The class 1, 2 and 3 apply only to visible lasers not IR.  Lack of any blink reflex for IR throws things off.  I haven't been able to find any IR specific guidelines like the 1, 2, 3 classes.  And now there is a newer classification system even for visible.  I've been using both IR and visible lasers for my virtual range project and with the powers I'm using (fit class 1 and 2 above) I'm not worried.  Just follow Tichgamers' advice above - don't do stupid things.  I'm not worried about reflections off my projector screen and I have no mirrors in the area.  No kids either to worry about.

[Titchgamer]

Well basicly if you use a Class 1 IR laser you are fine in terms of danger to your eyes.

Class 2 is unlikely to damage your eyes but could do if you do something stupid with it.

Class 3 ono isa bad idea.

The class 1, 2 and 3 apply only to visible lasers not IR.  Lack of any blink reflex for IR throws things off.  I haven't been able to find any IR specific guidelines like the 1, 2, 3 classes.  And now there is a newer classification system even for visible.  I've been using both IR and visible lasers for my virtual range project and with the powers I'm using (fit class 1 and 2 above) I'm not worried.  Just follow Tichgamers' advice above - don't do stupid things.  I'm not worried about reflections off my projector screen and I have no mirrors in the area.  No kids either to worry about.

From what I understand of it the fact you cant see it is not as important as the power output of it.

Ie a high powered laser will burn you eye out.
But the class of laser is relational to the power.

So theoretically (not that I would recommend this of course!) you could stare at the business end of a class 1 laser and not do any permanent damage to your eye.

Class 2 I believe it will damage your eye if its over a prolonged period (i think)

And class 3 ono you are going to do damage.

I could be totally wrong of course, But thats my understanding.

Still dont do stupid ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and it shouldnt be a problem lol

[SammyWI]

From what I understand of it the fact you cant see it is not as important as the power output of it.
........

Totally agree that power is going to be the major factor.  But every time I look for info on IR laser classes I find visible light tables that are very careful to have a disclaimer that they only apply to visible lasers.  I have the think that IR has some extra juicy goodness going on.  But it does still boil down to this:

Still dont do stupid ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and it shouldnt be a problem lol

[ryoken]

i found a video  playing a game with a ps3 camera and a laser pointer, is very impressive the pression he get.

[Titchgamer]

i found a video  playing a game with a ps3 camera and a laser pointer, is very impressive the pression he get.

Its only restricted to a very small area though.

I would like to see it over a much bigger are.

I dont like the idea of a solution where I need a camera behind me or the screen either if I am honest as it makes it to hard to cabinet fit it.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah we've basically got to get a webcam to get an entire monitor in the shot when it's only a foot or so from the screen.  You can do it, but like I was talking about earlier, it's going to be at an extreme angle so the monitor edges are going to be very skewed and software is going to have to compensate.  Another option is to mount the camera on the ceiling, but then you can't move the cabinet and it might not work with really tall people ect. 

[Titchgamer]

Yeah we've basically got to get a webcam to get an entire monitor in the shot when it's only a foot or so from the screen.  You can do it, but like I was talking about earlier, it's going to be at an extreme angle so the monitor edges are going to be very skewed and software is going to have to compensate.  Another option is to mount the camera on the ceiling, but then you can't move the cabinet and it might not work with really tall people ect.

And not to mention you need to mount a camera outside of the cabinet with a cable going to it somehow :p

Just seems a backwards way of doing it to me.

[Howard_Casto]

It's not ideal, but neither is having a giant 1 inch white border around the screen. 

[ryoken]

I was testing today an IR clip with opentrack an the mouse emulator. I'm very surprised with the response.  But the problem is calibration to aim right. But i can tell the mouse reaction is instantaneous for my eyes

[Titchgamer]

It's not ideal, but neither is having a giant 1 inch white border around the screen. 

Doesnt need to be a 1” thick though

But yeah its still not perfect but atleast there are no wires going to strange places lol

[Howard_Casto]

How does mounting a webcam  underneath a marquee equate to "wires in strange places"?

[Titchgamer]

How does mounting a webcam  underneath a marquee equate to "wires in strange places"?

If you could get it to work at such a steep angle then that would be fine.

[Howard_Casto]

I think, assuming I can parse a high res image fast enough, it should be fine.  So long as it's only skewed in one direction, software compensation is pretty straight forward.

[Titchgamer]

I think, assuming I can parse a high res image fast enough, it should be fine.  So long as it's only skewed in one direction, software compensation is pretty straight forward.

Its not just the skew though, Its the depth perception to.

It will be very shallow at a steep angle.

[thet0ast3r]

Depth perception? Did you mean depth of field? I think the mars lightgun doesn`t even need a very sharp image, as you only want to find the midpoint of the reflection off the screen. Much like you can be very precise with your thumb on a smartphone screen, even if its 10x bigger then the button you are clicking.

[Titchgamer]

Depth perception? Did you mean depth of field? I think the mars lightgun doesn`t even need a very sharp image, as you only want to find the midpoint of the reflection off the screen. Much like you can be very precise with your thumb on a smartphone screen, even if its 10x bigger then the button you are clicking.

No, The depth perception.

If the camera is mounted above the screen it will make the height of the screen look much smaller than it actually is so I wonder how well it would be able to determine where the laser is on the screen.

[thet0ast3r]

Thats a quite simple math & calibration problem. You just have to tell the algorithm where the corners of the screen are. The resolution on the farther side of the screen is going to be less, though (but that should have almost no effect on accuracy). 

[Titchgamer]

Thats a quite simple math & calibration problem. You just have to tell the algorithm where the corners of the screen are. The resolution on the farther side of the screen is going to be less, though (but that should have almost no effect on accuracy).

But that in lies the problem.

It will change with every screen/height/angle.

In my mind you are going to have a parallax/depth perception problem at such a steep angle.

Would love to see it working under a marquee and to be proved wrong though

[Howard_Casto]

Yes it will change with every display... that's why you calibrate it... once and only once.  The only time you'd need to calibrate it again would be if, for some reason, you moved the camera. 

The parallax/ depth perception is what I'm referring to that could be compensated with software.  It's not that hard really.  Since we are dealing with flat screens and not curved crts, regardless of the angle, we are basically dealing with a trapezoid.  If you know the location of the four corners of the screen, the border can be calculated and then it's a matter of calculating the percentage left and the percentage down in relation to the borders.  It's much more difficult to explain than to do actually.  The only issue I can see is diminished resolution on the short end of the trapezoid.... that's why I was saying 640x480 may not be sufficient. 

[Titchgamer]

Yes it will change with every display... that's why you calibrate it... once and only once.  The only time you'd need to calibrate it again would be if, for some reason, you moved the camera. 

The parallax/ depth perception is what I'm referring to that could be compensated with software.  It's not that hard really.  Since we are dealing with flat screens and not curved crts, regardless of the angle, we are basically dealing with a trapezoid.  If you know the location of the four corners of the screen, the border can be calculated and then it's a matter of calculating the percentage left and the percentage down in relation to the borders.  It's much more difficult to explain than to do actually.  The only issue I can see is diminished resolution on the short end of the trapezoid.... that's why I was saying 640x480 may not be sufficient.

Yeah I get that.

But how accurate is it going to be when you require accuracy to within a few mm?

You are effectively taking a I dunno say 21” high square screen and turning it into a 15” trapezoid.

I have no doubt you can write algorithms to compensate for this kind of think my doubt is with how accurate they will be when talking about the amount of variables.

And thats not taking into account any other things like solar radiation etc.

Dont get me wrong I dig the idea (and the suggested price point) but I would like to see more before getting on board with it.

[Howard_Casto]

I can't speak for ir lasers, but the visible ones project a very very tight point. It seems to look pretty uniform regardless of the viewing angle as well.

You've also got to keep in mind that most light gun games (not all mind you) have a low gun resolution.  All of the emulated stuff is basically 240p except for analogue joystick gun games and most of those boast a whopping 255x255 resolution.  Even those that don't on the hardware side, the hit targets are frikkin huge on modern gun games. 

So take those two things into account and it's not that tough.  We know that straight on, the webcam could be as low as 320x240 and still give good accuracy.  So even if the distortion is so bad that the top side of the trapezoid is half the width of the bottom side a 640x480 camera would get you back up to the 320x240 resolution.  I think maybe something a bit higher than that would be better just to be on the safe side, but that still shouldn't be unreasonable to process in a timely manner with a fairly accurate dot. 

I just think that finding the best camera and laser is the key..... it's not going to work well unless the hardware is well-suited. 

[ryoken]

I find the Logitech  c922. Capable of 720p at 60fps. The problem.. it cost 90 euros which is more money than the Pdp Mars with the camera and gun together and the two  games included " if they ever release it ofc"  and the Sinden gun should be no more than 100 euros in my guess! More and it may not success with the kickstarter.  I don't really know the amount of  details you guys can see in order to make the software.  But some how , the Chinese guy get in the YouTube video impresive results.  Accuracy and speed like nothing before.  And that was already 1 year ago. I really think the right ir laser pointer and low power is the key

[Howard_Casto]

Really for me a lot of it has to do with how long are we going to have to wait?  If it's more than a year I can probably cobble together something good in that amount of time. 

I was thinking maybe a backup camera....  they show a very large area with a very short throw and are about the size of a postage stamp.  The distortion of a fish-eye lense might be slightly more challenging to compensate for though. 

[Zebra]

What is the fundamental difference between this and the existing home IR / CCD guns? I.e. What makes it more accurate and able to work at any distance?

I am always happy to see new light gun tech but I have been disappointed too many times to believe it until I see it. If it works as well as current arcade IR guns then I'd almost certainly buy one though.

On that note, I would prefer it if someone simply copied the arcade IR design - i.e. Ten sensors around the bezel and triangulation of the position instead of biangulation like the current home IR guns. We know that the Time Crisis 4 arcade gun design works and is reasonably accurate. There is no need to reinvent this wheel.

[ryoken]

Hey guys they just  posted the release  day. Available 5 july

[Howard_Casto]

Nice.  I think I might wait and see how good it is then. 

[ryoken]

 i hope the Mars become available  in Europe too. Also I wonder  if the sinden gun kickstarter campaign on the second weekend of April.  How long it will take him to get everything done and start shipping his light gun. I mean  i don't  think his campaign will get more than few hundreds  of orders at top .. is not me about negative is just realistic. For example the company behind The Mars light gun is expending a lot  more money  on development of the gun and the games than Sinden  and is done by a company with some tracking on the gamers hardware business.  even do there is almost no feedback  from anywhere not from light gun fans or even worse from developers to create new games. So my point is there is no much people out there who want a light gun for his arcade cabinet  and dealing  with endless troubles to make it work  because nothing  is really plug and play.

[Zebra]

I don't think the desire for plug in and play is unique to light guns. I think most people feel that way about almost everything. If the install process is not intuitive and immediately obvious then things don't get used.

With that said, almost all of the (very limited number) of currently available light gun substitutes are fairly easy to use. The issue is that they are not very good.

I'd be seriously interested in one that was genuinely accurate enough to use without on-screen crosshairs. I'd even put myself through a difficult install. So far, the Guncon 3 is the only home HD gun accurate enough for that though, but that gun only works with 3 games...

[clhug]

Does anybody have any confirmation that this will work with MAME?  From their material it appears that right now it only works with Xbox One.

I don't really care for the gun body design.  Strip out the guts and put them in your own case I guess.  I'd also like to see a recoil option.

[Howard_Casto]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/PDP-Xbox-One-PS4-MARS-LIGHTCON-Universal-Lightgun-090-079-NA/800106582

According to this Walmart listing it works for everything.  Not sure how accurate that is, but you can at least expect it to work for all the consoles as most gun games end up on the ps4 or switch and NOT the xbox. 

[ryoken]

Looks like no way to get them  from Europe.   

[Disco74]

Think Im gonna stick with the Sinden!!!

[clhug]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/PDP-Xbox-One-PS4-MARS-LIGHTCON-Universal-Lightgun-090-079-NA/800106582

According to this Walmart listing it works for everything.  Not sure how accurate that is, but you can at least expect it to work for all the consoles as most gun games end up on the ps4 or switch and NOT the xbox.

Interesting.  The other thing that's interesting is that apparently Walmart is selling the standalone gun, but not the starter kit that includes the camera (or at least not that I can find by searching the site).  The gun by itself is pretty useless.

[pbj]

$30?  Not bad.  No joystick on it is going to really limit it, though.

[KenToad]

PDP Mars Lightcon looks cool, but the company's website only mentions XboxOne compatibility. Maybe PC and other platforms will be supported in the future?