Virtua Racing FFB

[Boomslang]

I only just relised this a couple days ago but it's been available for about 2 years now but thanks to the brilliant work of SailorSat, she added a FFB output which can be used with Howard's awesome Mamehooker program.

VR lights work too if that's of interest however I'd be keen to see if we can attempt to get some decent FFB which can hopefully resemble the real cabinets FFB.

Its been added into model1.c and it's also in SailorSat's cabmame she released to allow networking of Virtua Racing.

Now load up mamehooker and run Virtua Racing and it should find the outputs (or it will once they output something). Digit0 is the FFB output and you will see it sit at 40 when wheel is centered and move around depending on what you do.

Tutorials are on The Dragon King website if needed on how to use mamehooker and some help with setting up FFB.

I played with it last night and have a nice spring feel in my wheel now which makes a world of difference immediately but I did get it so it shook etc when I hit walls etc but it was far from real feel.

Hopefully we can work out how to get it working great as I don't believe it's been done in mamehooker yet other then with Outrunners etc with simple on/off outputs.

Tutorial only teaches us so much so think we need to play with making fedit effect files and finding out how to have it move between effects depending on Digit0 output at any given time. Thanks for answering all my annoying questions Howard!

May well help us understand how to get FFB working on future games when outputs are given too

[MrThunderwing]

That's pretty cool. I've never tried using mamehooker, does Chase HQ have any FFB? It's been so long since I played the actual arcade version I can't remember if the wheel used to do anything or not.

[Howard_Casto]

Well and that's the thing you need to understand and understand that I'm not mentioning this to be a jerk, just to clarify. 

Zero mame games support FF.  Mame supports output broadcasting.  Mamehooker supports FF.  Via mamehooker, you can hook outputs from mame, translate the data via scripting, and send the data to FF commands. 

This is why Boomslang is having some trouble.  SailorSat did a great job writing a output section for VR in mame.  The problem is the translation part and difference in resolution between FF and whatever the hell you want to call the haptic feedback system old sega racers used. 

See sega racers have a directional value and a power value, just like modern directX FF.  The problem is the power value is typically 1 to 10, where modern ff has a value of 0 to 10,000 (software, not actual).  Mamehooker has math functions you can use in scripts to ramp up the value, but as you would imagine, the low resolution makes for a rather jerky experience. 

So what we need is someone good at "deh mathz" and I can add any features they deem necessary to make smooth ff possible via sega data. 

That being said most racers use a simple rumble like you'd find on a modern gamepad..... getting that stuff to work is cake, we just use it as a toggle switch for a canned effect.  Outrun works great with this as does many other titles I've hooked up.  I can't remember if chase hq had rumble or not.... I added to these drivers several years ago. 

[MrThunderwing]

Cheers for the explanation Howard.

[SailorSat]

Another problem is the range itself.

SEGA used a simple protocol - high 4 bits are command group, and lower 4 bits are "power".

0x10 is "spring", this stops the motor and lets the springs do their job (i.e. center the wheel without motor).
0x20 is "clutch", which turns of the motor but keeps the clutch on - the wheel gets harder to move.
0x30 is "center", which turns the wheel towards the center by force.
0x40 is "uncentering", which will turn the wheel away from the center.
0x50 is "roll left", sending a straight force to left.
0x60 is "roll right", sending a straight force to right.

all other command groups can be ignored.

Virtua Racing supports 00 to 0F (4 bit) of strength - Daytona uses the exact same protocol, but only uses value 00 to 07 (3 bit) even though it DOES support 00 to 0F
Same goes for OutRun, 3 bits of strength. (Deluxe Mode)

It is not too hard to map them though...
Virtua Racing for example - take the lower 4 bits, increase by ONE (1 to 16) and multiply that value by 625.
Reason: Even a "power of 0" turns the wheel. To stop moving the wheel they used 0x10

All of those commands are usually active until another command follows.

[Howard_Casto]

Oops, forgot the 0x in front of those numbers....  sorry programmers always think in hex eventually.    Glad you chimed in.

Yeah if I remember correctly (again it's been quite a while excuse my rust) I went ahead and pre-filtered the outputs for outrun within the mame driver.... they aren't useful for anything but an original board anyway and it's always easier to combine them back later. 

The clutch, center and uncenter commands are another ball of wax I didn't even get into.  There isn't a direct equivalent in direct input, so I wasn't exactly sure what to do with them.  Again, someone with "the mathz" could probably write a formula to apply them to the various FF variables, but I'm kind of lost on the subject.  I think clutch could be emulated by increasing the power of a spring effect, but as for the other two.......

[Boomslang]

yeah I need to sit down and play around with it some more as I wasn't even sure how to get it to move between fedit effects smoothly without writing about 120 different ones with slate brake between them (to give from 0 output right up to 120) all in mamehooker but figured that would give a horrible FFB experience as it would effectively start the effect again and again each time.

Hopefully someone far more skilled then myself who understands FFB commands etc better will have a deeper understanding and can share some tips etc

Trying to get somewhat realistic feedback to a real cab may be difficult but ANYTHING would surely be better then having no ffb at all but it could be tweaked over time to hopefully give a good feeling. Mamehooker is a wonderful app for this sort of stuff, its just unfortunate that I don't understand about 90% of what im meant to do lol

Ill play with it some more and maybe just share a simple idea of what we could have working (spring in wheel, shakes when we hit walls etc) but it could and should be so much better

Ive heard for last couple years a lot of people asking for FFB in virtua racing so it would be cool to have something! Ive personally always been a bit disappointed with games having no FFB in mame

[SailorSat]

The clutch, center and uncenter commands are another ball of wax I didn't even get into.  There isn't a direct equivalent in direct input, so I wasn't exactly sure what to do with them.  Again, someone with "the mathz" could probably write a formula to apply them to the various FF variables, but I'm kind of lost on the subject.  I think clutch could be emulated by increasing the power of a spring effect, but as for the other two.......

stolen from the model2emu
though uncentering does NOT what it does on a real model2 wheel

Code: [Select]

;FORCE EFFECTS PARAMETERS
;FE_CENTERING Effect (Spring centering effect)
FE_CENTERING_Gain=0.5 ;Global gain
FE_CENTERING_Coefficient=10000 ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Saturation=10000 ;0-10000
FE_CENTERING_Deadband=1000 ;10%

;FE_CLUTCH Effect (Friction, wheel turn hardness)
FE_CLUTCH_Gain=1.0 ;Global gain
FE_CLUTCH_Coefficient=10000 ;0-10000

;FE_LEFT,FE_RIGHT (Constant force in a direction)
FE_LEFT_Gain=1.0 ;Global gain
FE_LEFT_Magnitude=10000 ;0-10000
FE_RIGHT_Gain=1.0 ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Magnitude=10000 ;0-10000


;FE_UNCENTERING (Sine force, wave the wheel, rumble)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=1.0 ;Global gain
FE_UNCENTERING_Magnitude=10000 ;0-10000
FE_UNCENTERING_Offset=-200
FE_UNCENTERING_Phase=0
FE_UNCENTERING_Period=56000


[Howard_Casto]

yeah I need to sit down and play around with it some more as I wasn't even sure how to get it to move between fedit effects smoothly without writing about 120 different ones with slate brake between them (to give from 0 output right up to 120) all in mamehooker but figured that would give a horrible FFB experience as it would effectively start the effect again and again each time.

Hopefully someone far more skilled then myself who understands FFB commands etc better will have a deeper understanding and can share some tips etc

Trying to get somewhat realistic feedback to a real cab may be difficult but ANYTHING would surely be better then having no ffb at all but it could be tweaked over time to hopefully give a good feeling. Mamehooker is a wonderful app for this sort of stuff, its just unfortunate that I don't understand about 90% of what im meant to do lol

Ill play with it some more and maybe just share a simple idea of what we could have working (spring in wheel, shakes when we hit walls etc) but it could and should be so much better

Ive heard for last couple years a lot of people asking for FFB in virtua racing so it would be cool to have something! Ive personally always been a bit disappointed with games having no FFB in mame

You need to check those tutorials a little more... you don't load different effects, you use tweaking to bind a output to a variable in the effect file. 

[BadMouth]

I eventually want to have a dedicated thread for the sharing of Mamehooker scripts, but personally have not taken the time to learn it (and I'm remodeling an entire house by myself, so I don't think I'll have time for a few years).  I apologize for that.  I bought an LEDwiz two years ago specifically for use with MAMEhooker, but just never got around to it.

I know barritonmarchetto (sp?) used a hacked xbox360 pad for his cab and was pretty tenacious about getting the rumble working on every game possible.
Is there any reason shared scripts for a standardized controller like an xbox360 controller or G27 couldn't just be dropped in a folder and used by someone else?

I just don't understand why I see people say they're using MAMEhooker, but I never see anyone posting scripts.

[Howard_Casto]

Well for simple rumble, there isn't much to script out, that may be why.  It's very frustrating to me as well.... I want to put a repository on the site in regards to real applications of the app, but the most I ever get from users is a demo video. 

Scripts are, for the most part, even more generic than that.  There's no reason a steering wheel script can't be made, for example, that'll work with 90% of the wheels out there.  I just have to put up the tutorials for the 10% that run into issues.

The real problem is that each game typically needs a custom script.  Not a big deal, but you have to sit down and actually do it.  Even I find it a bit overwhelming. 

[Howard_Casto]

So SailorSat..... I guess what would be helpful for mamehooker would be a "sega filter" huh?

I could probably set something up where you define the ranges/masks and it applies them all to a wheel.   I'm just not as familiar with the "standard" as you are.  Is VR typical in terms of the outputs?  I'm more familiar with the pre haptic feedback sega titles so I don't know where to begin. 

[SailorSat]

So SailorSat..... I guess what would be helpful for mamehooker would be a "sega filter" huh?

I could probably set something up where you define the ranges/masks and it applies them all to a wheel.   I'm just not as familiar with the "standard" as you are.  Is VR typical in terms of the outputs?  I'm more familiar with the pre haptic feedback sega titles so I don't know where to begin.

As far as I can tell, there are only two "intelligent" Sega protocol versions - the first being Virtua Racing (and later games - including Daytona, Indy500, Sega Touring Car, Scud Race, etc.), the other one would be "Sega Rally" (and maybe Sega Rally 2) which can be translated to the first one though.

I think an example sega filter would be a good starting point.
I don't have the Sega Rally protocol at hand, I'll post it later.

I can't quote on the earlier games though, F1 Exhaust Note does not seem to have any Force Feedback at all, and F1 Super Lap won't boot for me.

[Howard_Casto]

Eh I've got notes on those.....  I think one of them has it, but it's extremely crude, like engine noise or something..... wouldn't apply to traditional ff methods. 

I've still got to figure out how to translate these though.  Not the normalization bit, but the which effects to apply it to part. 

Direct input has a spring effect (but that's a software spring) and there's a manual (but still software) spring that I suppose could be substituted for the clutch.  Of course constant force, aka roll is easy as well. 

Friction is problematic.   I see in model2 he applied the clutch to this, but friction effect support for most wheels, and most FF devices in general, is rather spotty.  Or at least it was for me in my testing. 

I just don't know what to do with centering and uncentering.  I can assume from the m2 config that it's a sine wave rumble for uncentering, but then wtf is centering?

[SailorSat]

Centering would be a rather strong Spring effect. As it just turns the wheel to the center.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I'm going to have to think on it a bit.  I roughed out an effect file, so believe it or not the hard part is done.  I've just got to figure out the best way to write the script commands considering different machines had different max values.  I have a bad habit of making things too complex when the whole goal is to make them more simple.

[baritonomarchetto]

Well for simple rumble, there isn't much to script out, that may be why.

That's my case for sure: mamehooker works perfectly for simple rumble "out-of-the-box, no need for scripts at all (or i would have shared). My efforts where mainly  oriented in the implementation of Mame outputs for those games Howard and dbam worked on in the past but where (are) not implemented in the official sourcecode (mamehooker cannot handle mame games if nothing is outputted).

[Boomslang]

yeah I need to sit down and play around with it some more as I wasn't even sure how to get it to move between fedit effects smoothly without writing about 120 different ones with slate brake between them (to give from 0 output right up to 120) all in mamehooker but figured that would give a horrible FFB experience as it would effectively start the effect again and again each time.

Hopefully someone far more skilled then myself who understands FFB commands etc better will have a deeper understanding and can share some tips etc

Trying to get somewhat realistic feedback to a real cab may be difficult but ANYTHING would surely be better then having no ffb at all but it could be tweaked over time to hopefully give a good feeling. Mamehooker is a wonderful app for this sort of stuff, its just unfortunate that I don't understand about 90% of what im meant to do lol

Ill play with it some more and maybe just share a simple idea of what we could have working (spring in wheel, shakes when we hit walls etc) but it could and should be so much better

Ive heard for last couple years a lot of people asking for FFB in virtua racing so it would be cool to have something! Ive personally always been a bit disappointed with games having no FFB in mame

You need to check those tutorials a little more... you don't load different effects, you use tweaking to bind a output to a variable in the effect file.

Could you please explain this to me Howard. Ive read the tutorial several times but I don't understand how to set it up so that the effects change depending on the output position (me=dumb)

I assumed I set it up like this

[General]
 MameStart=ffe 1 customwheel,fft 1 1 %s%

[Output]
 output0=fft 1 1 0|fft 1 1 -1

but im pretty sure ive got it all wrong

[Howard_Casto]

There's nothing inherently wrong with what you have there.  (I would replace %s% with a 0 to ensure you don't get rumbled to death upon startup)

Where are you getting "output 0" from though?

You do understand that in the case of effect files and tweaking.... you manipulate the .twk file inside your effects folder to adjust variables if need be.  The orunners example, by default uses the %s% variable, aka the state of the current output.

If that's virtua racing or some other game that doesn't use on/off outputs for rumble, it flat out won't work.  You have to make another tweak file for that. 

[Boomslang]

ok so if im doing something like Virtua Racing and have 5 layers to my effect file, layer 4 being spring.

I cant make my tweak file like?

1|CMagnitude|%s%
2|CMagnitude|%s%
3|CMagnitude|%s%
5|CMagnitude|%s%

Your saying I have to make my tweak file like

1|CMagnitude|1
1|CMagnitude|2
1|CMagnitude|3
1|CMagnitude|4
1|CMagnitude|5
1|CMagnitude|6
1|CMagnitude|7
1|CMagnitude|8
1|CMagnitude|9
1|CMagnitude|10
2|CMagnitude|40
2|CMagnitude|41
2|CMagnitude|42
2|CMagnitude|43
2|CMagnitude|44
2|CMagnitude|45
2|CMagnitude|46

etc etc?


I don't get how else I am meant to be setting my tweak file for the variable output other then %s% but how do I make only certain effects work when output0= 43 for instance

[Howard_Casto]

Long story short, you don't.  You can't use tweak files the way you are wanting to do it.  You can set a tweak within a tweak file to a specific number, or to a multiplier, a buffer or state, but you can't activate different events based on the same state's value. 

SailorSat's VR driver doesn't filter the data out into individual variables.  Therefore it doesn't work with mamehooker.  The only way to make it work is to change the driver in mame or make the additions I was discussing.  Mind you it is possible to use the buffer math operations to check if a variable equals a value, thus setting the buffer to a 0 or 1 state and controlling the on/off state of a layer via that buffer, but you only have 10 buffers to use. 

There probably are ways to filter the data to some extent using the buffer and multiplier functions I've provided, but it isn't worth it.  It would be unbelievably convoluted.  It makes more sense just to be patient. 

[Boomslang]

 

but.....but......im too impatient...... haha

ok ill try the whole wait patiently thing

[Howard_Casto]

Don't worry man... it's getting that time of year and I'm going to want to work on my racing rig again very soon.  I think armed with SailorSat's knowhow I might just take a running start at the non-model2/3 racing games and get them all working. 

[isamu]

Boomslang have you tried playing Virtua Racing in PCSX2? How does it compare graphically to the arcade version running in MAME? One thing I've heard around the farm, is that the PS2 version does have very good FFB and works beautifully with Logitech wheels. Can anyone confirm this?