Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?

[Soundwave]

I have a table saw, circle guides, laser guided saws...halfway decent tools but nothing fancy. I have Craftsman not Dewalt, but one thing I always notice is that I can't always get an absolute perfect cut where everything fits together nicely...not without a gap here or what have you. Usually I have to rely on sanding and wood filler a lot. I have a heck of a time measuring my table saw blade to my guide to make dead certain it's true but yet I always get some boards that gradually angle off a tad or like my kick panel, somehow became a good 1/8 inch off...Just curious from you seasoned wood workers, do you guys always make perfect cuts or do you often have to cover up mistakes?

My cab is almost done but I've made quite a few mistakes that I'll have to cover up....in a way it bugs me. I also have some pieces that I wish I done differently but at this point would require a complete redo and to be honest I'm half tempted to just start all over however I don't think none of it would be noticeable from the outside once it's done and very little inside if I paint it.

[yotsuya]

I've learned you get better with practice. When I started I made tons of mistakes.... now I can build outdoor furniture with precision. Tools help,  but practice is key.

[harveybirdman]

It's funny, one of the best woodworkers I have ever seen on here named himself "woodshop flunky," I think what Yotsuya says is pretty profound.

[Slippyblade]

PRO TIP:  Never saw to the measured line.  Saw just outside and sand up to the line.  At least, until you've had a ton of practice.  (Like Yots said)

[vwalbridge]

I make mistakes all the time. The trick is taking the picture at just the right angle to hide it.

[JDFan]

Yep sand paper - wood filler and Bondo will cover up pretty much any mistake on the wood and once you apply a few coats of paint even you will have a hard time finding where the mistake was - so someone that isn't looking for it will never notice !

[wp34]

My dad used to say that a good part of woodworking is learning how to fix or hide your mistakes.

[mgb]

Mistakes? We don't make no damn mistakes!

Just kidding. No ones perfect.

I am a perfectionists, which sucks especially since I'm disorganized and I have attention issues.
But I drive myself crazy trying to do every task to perfection.
Sometimes I realize how something on a neighbors house looks so good from the road but then up close, I see the little flaws. It helps me to realize that sometimes good enough is good enough.

Remember that the cabinets you see on here are photos. Often taken at the most flattering angles.
A lot of little blemishes aren't visible in those pics.

Nothing wrong with using filler to clean things up.
A mistake isn't a mistake until you stop trying to fix it.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence until you hop that fence and step in the poop.

[Token]

When I lived 25 minutes away from the nearest hardware store I was much more careful. Now it takes 3 minutes to get there and I just hack away.

The best thing about lumber is that it grows on trees.

[jennifer]

    Every project creates not only a new experience, but an excuse to buy a new tool for that project, (buy quality) over time your tools determine what your capable of.... Depending on what your actually doing or plan to do a jointer (even a good used one) can create absolute awesome perfection, in terms of fitting shaping or (rabbiting) of wood. Although that's only one girls opinion, it is certainly the kind of thing that will up your game.... Or slice your fingers off.   

[Soundwave]

Well how do you guys set your guide on your table saw to make sure it's true and exact width? I mean mine can sometimes be a hair or so off once I lock it down. The only way I can think of is to run my tape measure from edge of blade to the guide and at least get within a couple of cm's. I just don't trust the measure on the table saw, just seems when you extend the side arm that it's going to be off regardless.

I would be fine if I could do all my cuts on one day where I don't have to re set my table saw each time but I only have a couple hours to work on it each day, been nearly 2 months now and I'm still not ready for sanding yet.
Another problem is when I need to create an angle to make 2 ends flush but say I have a board that is at a 60 degree slope and I want the adjacent board to sit flush up against it, I seem to have problems cutting the right angle on the edge of the 2 boards so that they butt up together right. Now an L shape pattern is easy as I just cut each end to 45 degrees to make the 90 but for some reason other angles trip me up or my table saw just isn't accurate enough, dunno. Most other degree markers are just lines

[yotsuya]

Well how do you guys set your guide on your table saw to make sure it's true and exact width? I mean mine can sometimes be a hair or so off once I lock it down. The only way I can think of is to run my tape measure from edge of blade to the guide and at least get within a couple of cm's. I just don't trust the measure on the table saw, just seems when you extend the side arm that it's going to be off regardless.

That is EXACTLY how I do it.

[vwalbridge]

Well how do you guys set your guide on your table saw to make sure it's true and exact width? I mean mine can sometimes be a hair or so off once I lock it down. The only way I can think of is to run my tape measure from edge of blade to the guide and at least get within a couple of cm's. I just don't trust the measure on the table saw, just seems when you extend the side arm that it's going to be off regardless.

That is EXACTLY how I do it.

+1, Use your tape for measuring between the fence and the blade teeth of the blade. The measurements on the table saw itself are not (always) good enough.

Also, If you find your cuts are veering off and not perfectly straight it's because of the fence on your table saw. As you push the wood through, the blade will ever so slightly "kick" the wood towards the fence and wedge it in there making the cuts not perfectly square. The only true way to overcome this completely is to use a table saw sled.

As for angles, the Digital Sliding T-Bevel Gauge can really help. Takes all the guesswork out of matching up 2 angles.

[wp34]

My dad had a cabinet saw that was dialed in perfectly. You could make cuts reliably off the fence gauge. With my saw I use my tape measure to set up every cut.

For angle cuts I like to use scrap pieces of wood to test with. You can adjust your saw blade and take as many cuts as needed with the scrap. Once I have two samples that fit the angle I want I'll cut my final workpieces. You use the scrap sample pieces to set the angle of your blade. Just put the sample piece against the blade and adjust the angle until they match.

[jennifer]

   You may want to make sure your bearings are not all wore out before you get to all that. If your blade has a wobble,  Well the cut will be less than perfection, My tablesaw cuts wood, but does tend to drift on long pieces, The fence would be another area to address, other than the fact most are too short to accurately line a work piece up to without a jig, Some middle of the road machines will not stay put and will move during the cut... A well set up jointer on the other hand, isn't a magic pill either, They are dangerous, heavy and high maintenance, but are actually designed for what your talking about.

[vwalbridge]

When I want a long straight and very precise cut, I just use my cut-off router bit and run it along side a straight edge clamped to the board.

[Slippyblade]

Something else to keep in mind.  Use the same measuring tool for the whole project.  Seriously.  If you want to hurt your brain, go to the hardware store and grab a bunch of tape measures off the wall.  Doesn't matter which ones.  Different brands, same brand, different model, same model.  They will all be ever so slightly off from each other.  If you use different tapes, or a tape and a ruler, or any other combo, those slight differences will compound on each other and ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- goes south.

[MartyKong]

Soundwave - I need to create an angle to make 2 ends flush. This has become one of my most used tools - EBAY iGaging 11" Electronic Digital Protractor. Cheap and easy to slide up against your saw blade to accurately cut angles.
Well how do you guys set your guide on your table saw to make sure it's true and exact width? I first use a tape to mark my original piece. I then set the table saw and cut a sacrificial piece. I then check this against the original - If both match - good to go:).
Great post from Slippyblade - Use the same measuring tool for the whole project. When each measurement needs to be exact, great advice!

[BadMouth]

I'm sure there are quite a few people on here turning out perfection.
I am not one of them.


I have a cheap $90 table saw.  It's a craftsman "evolve" which is the same things as Rigid from home depot.
It is the worst table saw I've ever used.  I measure from the blade to the guide on both the front and back edges of the blade.
After that, it's just hoping for the best.

I start out with measurements, but then switch over to the "story pole" method of measurement.  If I need a matching width or length cut, I'll use the already cut piece as a guide to mark a stick and then use the stick instead of using a numerical measurement.

I also have trouble with the angled joints like you're talking about.  I blame the cheap table saw.
My father had a cast iron craftsman saw that I cut dozens of near perfect subwoofer enclosures on it in my younger years.
I just can't get them right on my table saw.  They always seem to have a curve on one side or the other...or one side is wider than the other like the guide moved.
This was an issue on the neo geo evolution cab linked in my signature.
Getting the nice seams on the front took multiple tries.
I used bondo on the back.
The panels are recessed about a quarter inch from the edges of the sides.
The angled piece on the top/back is almost flush with the edge of the sides.
I couldn't get it right and gave up since it isn't seen anyway.

No, I didn't show pictures of it in my build thread. 

[EvilNuff]

There are two phrases to keep in mind.  "Measure twice, cut once."  And "sneak up on it".  I am sure you have heard the former, and the latter means sneak up on your dimensions.  Take your measurement and cut it on the too big side.  Test fit your cut piece and use a sharp pencil to mark how big it is and shave off a little more.  I make furniture as a hobby and use hand planes to sneak up on fits, shaving out a couple thousandths of an inch at a time just to give you an idea how close a fit you can get.  Make sure your tools are in good working order.  You can get great cheap tools and bad expensive ones.  One tool I would not cheap out on, however, is a table saw.  Those cheap $90 jobbers are *extremely* unsafe and inaccurate.  You are better off just flat out dumping those things. 

[vwalbridge]

Speaking of "not cheaping out on" tools...


If you do anything right, get a good router. Routers are invaluable and especially when building arcades. With a good router, you can do almost anything.

Heck, I could argue that a good router can almost replace a table saw.

[eds1275]

I would rather run a circular saw against a straightedge than any table saw in my budget. Feels much safer to me, unless you have a table big enough to support what you're cutting.

[EvilNuff]

I would rather run a circular saw against a straightedge than any table saw in my budget. Feels much safer to me, unless you have a table big enough to support what you're cutting.

That is an excellent point!  A circular saw with straight edge or saw board can make a very accurate, good quality cut.  Even just a cheap sub $50 saw with a good quality blade can do fantastic.

My 2c on table saws is don't get it if it doesn't have a riving knife.  You're looking at the Bosch or Rigid job site saws around $400-500 as I recall as the cheapest I would consider safe to use.

[mgb]

I agree with using a circular saw with a straight edge.
And while good quality tools are important,
ingenuity, will & drive are what's most important in order to do a quality job.

On top of that, there's usually someone to borrow stuff from.
 

[yotsuya]

I dunno, I have a router, circular saw, miter saw, and table saw, and I use the table saw 99% of the time.

I think I've learned more than anything in the last 5 years, PATIENCE is the best tool to have. 

[vwalbridge]

I think I've learned more than anything in the last 5 years, PATIENCE is the best tool to have. 

You must have kids.

[wp34]

I dunno, I have a router, circular saw, miter saw, and table saw, and I use the table saw 99% of the time.

I think I've learned more than anything in the last 5 years, PATIENCE is the best tool to have. 

Same here. I usually only pull those other tools out if I either can't or am not comfortable making the cut on table saw. It is such a versatile tool.

[mgb]

I dunno, I have a router, circular saw, miter saw, and table saw, and I use the table saw 99% of the time.

I think I've learned more than anything in the last 5 years, PATIENCE is the best tool to have. 

Yeah true, if you have a table saw. I guess I meant more of if you don't have one or are contemplating
Getting a very cheap one.

For me, I don't have one but my father in law has a nice work shop just 5 minutes down the road.
It's easy enough to go there and do cuts but sometimes I just find it easier to do it at home with hand powe tools

[yotsuya]

I actually bought my table saw a few years ago to do wood flooring, so if you get one for this hobby, I'm sure you can find many other uses.

But yes, a straight edge and a circular saw are the bare minimum.

[markc74]

Jigsaw and a router did 99% of my cabs. The other 1% was 300 sheets of sandpaper 

[jennifer]

     I cant believe you guys are trying to talk each other out of buying a table saw, It is the basis of any decent shop, A router yes does make a quality cut but buy design you are holding a high power/torque motor in your hand, requiring more work by the operator for long cuts, A table (where the motor is bolted to it)  absorbs this energy, and when set up correctly allows for jigs, springboards and the like.... If you guys are going to use your routers like that a router table would be in your best interest allowing at least allowing for jointer operations.... However quality (above table bit changes) is not cheap and a table saw is a better buy. 

[mgb]

I don't think anyone's trying to talk anyone out buying a table saw.

Yes it's a great tool to have but its not in everyone's budget.

[yotsuya]

Hmmm... if dudes will drop $350 on LED buttons or $500 on a monitor for a marquee, they shouldn't have an issue budgeting $400 for a decent table saw.

[wp34]

Hmmm... if dudes will drop $350 on LED buttons or $500 on a monitor for a marquee, they shouldn't have an issue budgeting $400 for a decent table saw.

That's what I was thinking as well.

[artyfarty]

I'm with markc. Jigsaw to get close, and a straight edge for a router plus flush trim bit gave me great results for little outlay. I would certainly recommend this for a first time builder trying to get clean cuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vwalbridge]

Hmmm... if dudes will drop $350 on LED buttons or $500 on a monitor for a marquee, they shouldn't have an issue budgeting $400 for a decent table saw.

That's what I was thinking as well.

I agree too, but let's be honest...if they are buying a table saw for the first time to build an arcade machine it's because they never needed one before. So when their build is done, they likely will not ever need it again. They would simply rather put the dollars in the cabinet and not the tools. This is why you see guys say they borrowed their neighbor's router or got their father-in-law's table saw on loan.

I see value it a tool's long term return, others see it as a means to an end.

[dkersten]

@OP: As stated, a good table saw is the foundation of any decent woodworking shop.  If you are doing intricate joinery with hardwoods, then sanding and making corrections is always going to be necessary, but if you are talking about joining sheet stock together, the first thing to do is tune up your tools and learn to use them properly.  If you don't have the means to get a decent table saw fence, then learn how to make an accurate and straight cut with the one you have.  MOST fences are not self squaring, so you need to measure both the distance from the blade to the fence on the front of the blade AND on the back.  As stated, use the same measuring tool as much as you can.

A T-Square fence is one of the most valuable tools to a woodworker.  I prefer Biesemeyer, but as long as it is a decent quality T-square fence, you can rely on it to make straight cuts.  If you tune it up right and take care of it, it will be accurate.  I haven't used my tablesaw in over 6 months, and I have dragged it around the shop, stacked stuff on it, etc, yet I could go out there right now and using only the fence to measure, get within 1/32 of an inch on a rip.  If I take the time to dial it in, re-square everything from scratch, and set it all up again, I can rely on cuts accurate to 1/64th, and this is using a 35 year old Delta contractor saw base.  I bought the saw used 13 years ago for $300, paid $300 for the fence, and built a table myself that turns it pretty much into a cabinet saw.  I went with the 50" contractor fence and built the table to handle it.  Then I built detachable feed tables so when it is all set up I can rip 4x8 sheets alone and always do them perfectly and safely.  I used to build enclosures for subwoofers for car and home stereo systems.  Those require air-tight seams in order to get the best results, and I built hundreds and hundreds over the years.  The difference between a good tool and a crappy one (when the user is skilled) is the amount of time it takes to get a good result.  If you use cheap tools you will probably spend more time setting up, making accurate cuts, and then correcting mistakes than if you had better tools.

As for buying a table saw and never using it, I disagree completely.  There are a few power tools every "handyman" should own.  A drill, a skilsaw, a router, and a tablesaw.  Add in a few hand tools like a hammer, screwdrivers, some clamps, and a couple chisels, and you could build anything from an end table to an entire house with your tools.  A table saw is the foundation of a woodworking shop.  I am just a hobbyist these days and I might go a year without touching my tablesaw.  But I bet over the last 13 years I have run well over 10,000 feet through that saw.  Every project I do, whether it is a home renovation project, building furniture or cabinets, or just tinkering with wood in the shop ends up with me using the table saw sooner or later.  Sure, you could get away without one (between a router and a skilsaw) but face it, there is no better tool to rip a 1/2" strip of hardwood off a 10' long 3/4" wide oak board.  Try doing that with your skillsaw and a guide... at a 10.5 degree angle. 

As for mistakes, we all make them.  A good woodworker is good at covering up mistakes.  When using MDF or plywood, it might be inconvenient to start over, but it won't break the bank if you make a bad cut.  When using hardwoods that cost $4-$15 per board foot, you make a mistake and it is a choice between spending another $200 on materials or just making an adjustment and covering up the mistake.  With hardwoods you usually can't just bondo and move on, the finished product will be stained and sealed, so sometimes it is unavoidable to just start over with mistakes.  The more you learn and the more patience you have, the fewer mistakes you will make and usually they will be small enough to be able to be fixed without it affecting your project. 

[yotsuya]

Hmmm... if dudes will drop $350 on LED buttons or $500 on a monitor for a marquee, they shouldn't have an issue budgeting $400 for a decent table saw.

That's what I was thinking as well.

I agree too, but let's be honest...if they are buying a table saw for the first time to build an arcade machine it's because they never needed one before.

The counter I would say to that statement is that once you have it, you discover a lot of uses for it that make you realize you should have bought one a lot earlier.

[jennifer]

   My first, A used 50.00 Rockwell, served me good for a lot of years,  I really wonder if most people even know what a T/S is even capable of, rip a board and that's it, or actually utilize the miter functions, and use it like it was ment to be....Jennifer must confess @ this point, the blade guard, goes right into the dumpster, I just don't feel safe not knowing where the blade is at any given time.

[EvilNuff]

     I cant believe you guys are trying to talk each other out of buying a table saw, It is the basis of any decent shop...

Oh I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying a table saw.  I am trying to talk people out of buying cheap, unsafe, table saws.  I think they are so bad and so unsafe that nobody should own one...period.  If you want a table saw (and yes I encourage you getting one, and learning how to use it safely) start with the rigid/bosh jobsite saws that have a riving knife for about $400ish.

[wp34]

     I cant believe you guys are trying to talk each other out of buying a table saw, It is the basis of any decent shop...

Oh I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying a table saw.  I am trying to talk people out of buying cheap, unsafe, table saws.  I think they are so bad and so unsafe that nobody should own one...period.  If you want a table saw (and yes I encourage you getting one, and learning how to use it safely) start with the rigid/bosh jobsite saws that have a riving knife for about $400ish.

+1 on the riving knife.  Having used saws both with and without I'd never go back to one without one.

[EvilNuff]

I know I keep harping on the riving knife but really its for a reason.  Wood moves and you cannot prevent that.  When you cut it you expose new wood to air, with different moisture content.  The wood can (and will) warp by a non insignificant amount.  If the wood passes through the saw blade and moves on you, pinching the blade, you will get kickback. 

Kickback can kill you.

Yes I am trying to scare you, yes you should be scared.  I flat out refuse to use a cheap table saw.  Simply put even if you do everything perfectly safe, using their cheap splitters, etc.  You can still get hurt or killed, and the likelihood is not tiny.

Please don't just disregard what I am saying my friends.  Dump those $50-$100 crap saws.

[dkersten]

Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. often there are internal stresses in wood that you can't see unless you know what to look for and as soon as you rip the wood it will start to twist or bend, sometimes significantly.  I have had a 2x8 pinch together and stop my blade dead, only because I was holding firm and the catcher was also holding firm (and it is only a 2hp saw, a 5hp would have cause damage) because as soon as the cut was made the two pieces warped toward each other.  Once I finished the cut, both pieces had curved well over 18 inches over an 8 foot stretch.. If given time to dry up that way it would have twisted and cupped as the internal grain tried to straighten itself out...  Start with dry wood and this is very rare, but there are other dangers, so it is always a good idea to have the option for safety equipment.  There are also a TON of things you can do with a tablesaw that require you to remove that safety equipment, so make sure whatever you buy can be easily removed.

However, I would advise against a portable jobsite saw unless you are planning to tote it around a lot.  The reason is a regular contractor saw will have the bolt holes to allow for a fence upgrade where most jobsite saws will not.  This means you can buy a $300-400 saw and then later when you can afford it, upgrade with a biesemeyer or similar T-square fence and turn it into something closer to a $1500-3000 cabinet saw for a fraction of the price.  (I think Delta bought Biesemeyer, but they still sell their fences separately).  A table saw is only as good as its fence.  Simple as that.  Any saw with a good fence, a good blade, and set up properly (adjusted to be parallel and square) will give you good results.

[jennifer]

   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

[dkersten]

I once accidentally dropped a 3'x3' piece of 3/4" MDF on the blade... of a 5hp Powermatic with a commercial T-square fence that doesn't budge even an eighth inch.  The 10" blade cut an ARC in the wood and as it ejected, it hit me just below the belt - about 3 inches lower and it would have been bad for me.  It physically pushed me back several feet and felt like a mule kicking me (I am over 200lbs, the wood is a couple pounds, so it takes a LOT of kinetic energy for something that light to move ME... think of hitting a 200lb sack of sand with a baseball bat.  Take your best swing and it might move a half inch.  This pushed me back several feet).  I had a baseball sized lump under the skin for several weeks after that. 

The first thing I did when I recovered from the kick back was count my fingers. 

The sound alone is enough to give someone nightmares. 

Respect the tools and always stay out of the way...

[EvilNuff]

   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

Oh my gosh NO!  The binding wood won't just move the fence.  It can cause kickback which can KILL YOU.  No joke.  The wood can be thrown back towards you at very high velocity.


Those cheap saws are far worse than you believe.  There are no real safety features on them.  The arbors can and will wobble, the fences are not sturdy.  Heck I have seen those cheapy ones where the blade was not parallel to the fence!

There is NO price that would convince me to use one.  You literally could not pay me to use one.  I cannot emphasize this enough...do not buy or use those.  The Rigid $400 jobsite saw here:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-15-Amp-10-in-Heavy-Duty-Portable-Table-Saw-with-Stand-R4513/100090444
Is the cheapest I would consider safe to use.  It also comes with a stand (and a better one). 

Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. ...

I was simplifying it.  I was more focused on convincing people that those cheap crappy saws should never, under any circumstances, be used. 

[jennifer]

   RE, Evil/N :   Binding wood is caused by wood binding between the blade and the fence, So yes, if the fence moves, Well just do the math, kickback is a relatively rare occurrence, and for the most part can be attributed to operator negligence... If Jennifer could with good conscious discredit a budget machine I would, But will stand behind the fact they are not any more or less dangerous than say that Rigid, are quite capable of decent cuts, and offer excellent value as a entry level workhorse.   

[EvilNuff]

   RE, Evil/N :   Binding wood is caused by wood binding between the blade and the fence, So yes, if the fence moves, Well just do the math, kickback is a relatively rare occurrence, and for the most part can be attributed to operator negligence... If Jennifer could with good conscious discredit a budget machine I would, But will stand behind the fact they are not any more or less dangerous than say that Rigid, are quite capable of decent cuts, and offer excellent value as a entry level workhorse.

This is an incorrect series of statements.  Kickback is caused by more than just binding.  Kickback is a *common* occurrence, saying or implying otherwise is actively dangerous to others.  Claiming that it is caused mostly by operator negligence is also blatantly false, misleading and dangerous.  Kickback can and will happen even when the operator does everything correctly and safely.

Jennifer, I urge you to reconsider what you are saying and doing.  Your mis-understanding of table saws and the dangers they can present is truly frightening.  I am sorry to be so blunt but you are actively encouraging people to do unsafe things.  This is literally the same as telling kids its ok to go play in traffic because other drivers should pay attention and not hit you.

For anyone else reading, please do yourself a favor...skip over any tool advice from her...she is flat out wrong.  I am sorry to be so confrontational but you are seriously endangering people with your advice.

[jennifer]

    I am NOT some safety scofflaw, polar opposite in fact and those who know me can attest to that , But sit down Mr Doom and Gloom, pull your chair up really close, because I am only going to say this once....
 Firstly,
   #1, This is a thread on fixing mistakes (or not making them) not table saw etiquette  ... And to the Op Jennifer apologizes.
   #2, Table saws are dangerous machines, But inherently don't kickback boards as a "common" occurrence or with regularity... And with proper training the risk of that can be minimized. 
   #3, Not everyone can afford a Rigid, Look around here man, most of these guys are using saw boards and cheap routers, Is this safer? Where is your confrontational air with that? 
   #4, Your review is completely biased "The fence is not parallel  with the blade" What are you even talking about? Straiten it up Duh....And bent arbors? this would cause violent vibration. I can not find one case point on this, believe it or not these machines are built as NOT to be a liability to the vendor.
    AND FINALLY.... Since you seem to be all shop teacher and such, (Id love to hear your causes of kickback lecture) Lets get out the dial gauges and mics and do a comprehensive overview of cost/vs/safety in another thread.
   

[mgb]

And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

[dkersten]

And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

Well, I suppose when you come to a nerd website you end up having to deal with the personalities of nerds.


FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.

[lordjackenstein]

Practice. Also buy a 4 oz tub of wood filler.  It is a life saver.

[yotsuya]

And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

WELCOME TO THE INTERNET, BRUH!!!!!!

[Jamesbeat]

It's a philosophical matter as far as I'm concerned.
I don't make mistakes, I make 'features'

[jennifer]

And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

Well, I suppose when you come to a nerd website you end up having to deal with the personalities of nerds.


FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.

   I am not saying Buy cheap or go home, Quite the opposite in fact if one can afford it....However I do play with machines regardless of cost just because I like to compare, Cheap DOES NOT CAUSE KICKBACK. In fact I cant remember the last time Jenn even experienced it (although always expecting it as per safety), All machines wear out with use, Bearings seize bla bla, even on quality, but usually those issues are caught during regular maintenance interludes..... Your experience with excessive and regular kickback worries me, that's just not normal (and not adequately justified in your post)  you should get to the bottom of that before you get hurt.

[dkersten]

FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.

   I am not saying Buy cheap or go home, Quite the opposite in fact if one can afford it....However I do play with machines regardless of cost just because I like to compare, Cheap DOES NOT CAUSE KICKBACK. In fact I cant remember the last time Jenn even experienced it (although always expecting it as per safety), All machines wear out with use, Bearings seize bla bla, even on quality, but usually those issues are caught during regular maintenance interludes..... Your experience with excessive and regular kickback worries me, that's just not normal (and not adequately justified in your post)  you should get to the bottom of that before you get hurt.

Not sure where you got that I have had a lot of kickbacks...  I have experienced about 5 in my life from a tablesaw, and 3 from routers.. two of those cases I wasn't being careful, the others were just accidents from not expecting the wood to do what it did.  Between the two tools I have over 1000 hours (of actual power on making sawdust), so my few kickbacks (mostly controlled and didn't put me at risk) are far from excessive...

This past week I pulled out my table saw, which hasn't been turned on since my last cab (more than a year ago).  It had things stacked on it, dust and grime and dirt all over it, and had been shoved up against the wall and banged around for over a year to make room.  Without any tuning, any maintenance, or even checking the fence, I made well over 100 cuts and every one of them was accurate to a 32nd of an inch, and not one kickback.  I literally pulled it out from under stuff, blew the dust off, plugged it in, and started cutting.  Just about any tool can be safe if you take all the precautions and work carefully, but a good tool means that even a decade later, even after sitting collecting dust (not sawdust) for over a year, the tool is safe to use without having to double check everything, like if the belt is warped and cracked from sitting, or if the fence if straight and parallel to the blade, or if the blade is sharp or true, or if the arbor has sagged or bent or worn out... All things that can cause accidents.  A good tool will mean you can get right to work without having to nurse the thing along or perform rehabilitation. 

[jennifer]

  **Jennifer laughs**... Ok I get it, good saw, But a saw dug out of a garbage pile should be at least looked over before use.

[Token]

My 2c on table saws is don't get it if it doesn't have a riving knife.  You're looking at the Bosch or Rigid job site saws around $400-500 as I recall as the cheapest I would consider safe to use.

Every new table saw sold since 2009 has included a riving knife.

Not saying cheap table saws aren't cheap, but they've come a long way.

[pbj]

What changed my life was reading a tip in this forum about mixing wood glue and sawdust.  That stuff dries very hard and smoothes over a lot of mistakes.

[Slippyblade]

What changed my life was reading a tip in this forum about mixing wood glue and sawdust.  That stuff dries very hard and smoothes over a lot of mistakes.

This.  I learned this little trick through the board as well.  One of the best bits of advice I've ever gotten.  Doing this guarantees a color match to your original wood since it IS the original wood.

[bdn103]

Mistakes go away with practice, careful planning, no distractions, and being careful with measurements and tools. I have spent alot of time and money learning and upgrading my tools. I have found that while a minimum quality of tool is necessary for precision and safety....bigger tools (more powerful) allow you to make bigger mistakes faster (why am I upgrading my spindle from 2kw to 5kw after writing that...?)

My mistakes drive me nuts. No matter how much sanding, filler or paint, I always see the error...even when no one else can. As a result, I have given away a pile of cabinets for their cost in lumber....and the people who get them stare at me like I am crazy when I point out the problem(s) in the beautiful cabinets.

It gets easier the more cabinets you build....but if you are a perfectionist....you need to learn to let go of the mistakes. Your next cabinet will turn out better.

[jbl77]

   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

Oh my gosh NO!  The binding wood won't just move the fence.  It can cause kickback which can KILL YOU.  No joke.  The wood can be thrown back towards you at very high velocity.


Those cheap saws are far worse than you believe.  There are no real safety features on them.  The arbors can and will wobble, the fences are not sturdy.  Heck I have seen those cheapy ones where the blade was not parallel to the fence!

There is NO price that would convince me to use one.  You literally could not pay me to use one.  I cannot emphasize this enough...do not buy or use those.  The Rigid $400 jobsite saw here:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-15-Amp-10-in-Heavy-Duty-Portable-Table-Saw-with-Stand-R4513/100090444
Is the cheapest I would consider safe to use.  It also comes with a stand (and a better one). 

Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. ...

I was simplifying it.  I was more focused on convincing people that those cheap crappy saws should never, under any circumstances, be used. 

I agree.  Used my father in laws ancient saw once and got a kick back right into my belly.  I howled and swore and hopped up and done....and then I lifted my shirt and watched the bruise form.