Skee Ball V2.0 - kid sized modern skee ball

[unclet]

I updated the text on the following picture

[PL1]

Erroneous post removed.


Scott

[Nephasth]

On my machine, the rolling surface is parallel with the bottom edge of the side boards.

[nickels]

I would recommend dropping a ball on the side of one of those rings from about a two foot height and see how the material reacts.  Does it crack or dent perhaps?   Those rings can take a real beating.

The rings are a double layer of rubber wall base riveted at the seam. I suspect these take a beating better than or equal to real rings. They didn't budge on my test.  The 2.5" balls I am using are lighter than regular sized skee ball so that may help. I have a boatload of this material, so replacing rings over time (if necessary) will be no issue.

Today I cut the sides:

*finishing my basement is also in progress, so please excuse the padding sticking out of the carpet.

I screwed two pieces of 2'x8'x.5" plywood together, made my guides with a t-square and ruler based on the dimensions used in my Google sketch-up, laid the plywood down on some stacked 2x2s, and got to cutting. Many lessons learned. I tried to use a straight edge to help guide the jigsaw. Fruitless. Dropped that idea after about 2 small cuts. I went freehand on my drawn lines and worked out a lot better. This will look like a skee ball machine very soon. I plan on working on it a hour or so each day this week.

[nickels]

My concern is that to connect to the iPac I'll also need to connect the NO and Ground to the iPac ground and an open slot. Will the power supply lighting the LED interfere with this or short out the iPac?

You'll be feeding back voltage to the Ipac in that setup.  It only runs on 5v so the differential will feed into the ipac.  As it's a button for a skeeball machine you might be able to get away with driving a dpdt or dpst relay that could drive both the led and the Ipac at the same time, or program an LED driver to turn it on when the button is pushed.

Build's looking great so far.

Thanks! If I can pull this off nobody will be more shocked than me. haha. This info seals the deal. Too much to do for this project, so the buttons are going to be ether always illuminated or always off. I'll wire them to be always on, but if that is distracting I'll just disconnect the shared power to the LEDs.

Just did a quick test and was able to power the LED using the iPac. It was dimmer, but the button was always illuminated and went dim when pushed. This may be the winner for now.

[PL1]

Too much to do for this project, so the buttons are going to be ether always illuminated or always off. I'll wire them to be always on, but if that is distracting I'll just disconnect the shared power to the LEDs.

Another easy way is to have the LEDs shut off when you press the button.


Scott

[unclet]

Just to be sure I understand, the pencil line (highlighted in red) is parallel to the surface of the lane where you roll the ball, not the yellow siderail.

Just to make you more confused, I am going to retract my earlier statement where I mentioned the pencil line was parallel to the rolling surface (I removed this statement from my previous posting).  If you look at the measurements provided in the picture below you can see the yellow side rail is not parallel to the rolling surface.  The "pencil line" represents the angle of the yellow side rail.  As a result, the pencil line I drew probably does not really help anyone out.   The cutout template should just be used to help with creation of the ramp curvature only and all other measurements and slopes should be able to be determined by the measurements pictures I provided in this thread.  Just ignore the pencil line.  Sorry about this, but I originally provided the cutout template with the pencil mark and L-square pictures years and years ago.   I also no longer own the Skeeball machine.

Perhaps you could edit your picture above to state the pencil line is parallel to the top of the yellow side rail (not parallel to the rolling surface)?

[nickels]

Too much to do for this project, so the buttons are going to be ether always illuminated or always off. I'll wire them to be always on, but if that is distracting I'll just disconnect the shared power to the LEDs.

Another easy way is to have the LEDs shut off when you press the button.


Scott

I don't understand how this can work as there are 5 prongs:
1. Com (Ground for the switch)
2. NO
3. NC
4. LED +
5. LED -

The LED only lights up when you use connect power to the side prongs + and -. The above wiring diagram only shows connections for the button switch, not the LED light. Make sense?

[Nephasth]

There are 5 terminals in Scott's diagram, this will help clarify.

[nickels]

Add "reading wiring diagrams" to the list of things I need to figure out ASAP!

Thanks

[PL1]

The "pencil line" represents the angle of the yellow side rail.  As a result, the pencil line I drew probably does not really help anyone out.

Actually, it does help.

The pencil line is 2 degrees clockwise compared to the L-Square.

The measurements showing the distance from the rolling surface to the siderail work out to a 2 degree incline.

Therefore, the L-square is indeed parallel to the rolling surface.

Perhaps you could edit your picture above to state the pencil line is parallel to the top of the yellow side rail (not parallel to the rolling surface)?

Pic deleted and all posts scrubbed to clarify or remove any potentially confusing statements/questions.

Thanks for all your help.  Couldn't have done it without your detailed notes, pictures, and clarifications.   


Scott

[nickels]

Made some progress on the ramp section:


Didn't have time to finish the bottom ball return level, but I threw on the uncut plywood to get a sneak peek at how it will look:


Slowly, this is turning into something!
What you can't see at the bottom are small pieces of 2x2 lumber made into boxes for support. They also have screw on foot pads underneath to help with leveling.

[nickels]

Made some nice progress over the last couple of days.
Here is the bottom layer visible on ramp section. This is the "ball return". The balls come back down to the front under the table. I added some fabric to make the sound a little more muted.

The front brown part is level, which is where the balls will sit during gameplay. This was a space saving idea, using the whole bottom to store the balls instead of on the side.

Here is the entire front almost finished. I still need a panel at the front which will stop the balls from rolling out of the table when returned, and a place for the control buttons for the menu system on the screen.


I am working on the front panel and rings right now. The back section will hopefully be easier then this front area.
On a aside note when doing all of this cutting please use ear protection. I didn't notice the loud noise while cutting, but my ear has been ringing for a day now. It's getting better but it was an avoidable issue.

[Swillie]

What another great looking skeeball project!!  I have watched the thats how i roll thread for awhile now.  Strange hobby, watching other peoples build threads, lol. Actually I have a small home skeeball table with two player scoring. It only gives 6 rolls per player, which drives me crazy, that just isn't enough.  I have a keywiz ready to plug right into the existing wiring harness. What I dont have is software, or the knowledge to write my own, which would really transform this table. I think I am gonna start hooking things up and run your early software with my table for kicks, if you dont mind. And great job, keep up the good work.

Steve

[nickels]

I have updated the flash software, give me a day and I'll post it. I added three sounds: one for the hundred, one for the 50,40,30, and one for the 20,10 holes.  I also shortened the time for a double hit as I noticed the switch registers a double hit very quickly so it doesn't need to be disabled for so long. I also changed the keylistener to listen for different keys based on the iPac device. I will list which keys do what. I want to add in a volume controller now that there is sound.

I also made a ton of progress on the rings and the back area of the table. I'll post some photos shortly. Lastly, I thought of a few more games to create. The most complicated and potentially funniest game is going to be called "Skeeballs vs Zombies". My idea for that is a survival type game where zombies walk across the screen in 6 rows, and each row will be a ball value. The first few waves will be the easy numbers (10,20). The longer you play the more zombies appear, more and more in the harder number areas. They will also move faster and faster so that the game has to end. That will probably take me a month to program so I am saving it for after the table is finished. THis has crazy potential for a boss level and special attacks. The possibilities are endless.

I just got a router, so I am going to add some t-molding to the sides if I can figure it out without messing up all of my hard work to date.

[nickels]

Updated Flash software - still needs major work:
http://johnkalnin.com/skee/SkeeBallController-V1_4.swf

//5 key -Menu/Restart/Selec
//d or g key =100 pts
//r key =50 pts
//f key =40 pts
//a key =30 pts
//s key =20 pts
//q key =10 pts
//w key =0 points miss

I plan on putting in some major hours on the software once the table is done. It needs a menu system, more games, two player variations, volume control, etc.

Worked on the table some more. Long way to go, but its semi-playable. I drilled the number holes and decided to cover them with felt to protect the balls. Ran out of staples so a few are uncovered. A layer of sponge is going on top next to muffle the sound so the felt will not be visible. The blue tape on the ramp is covering the screw heads. It is a temp solution until I cover it with a cork sheet.



It's nice to see progress.  I changed the design a bit. Once I laid down the lines in pencil I decided the walls needed to be higher to keep the balls from flying off.  The kids played with it a bit even though the rings aren't  riveted in yet. Plays great! I was able to aim near all the holes no problem. The hardest throw never gets up to where the monitor will sit. The ramp angle seems perfect.

[PL1]

Nice progress on the build.

Several things about the software:

1. The "W" key registers as a gutter ball/miss instead of the "8".

2. How did you choose those keystrokes.     Not following the logic or layout here.

3. Nice to have sounds, but they don't sound like they are a part of the same game.

For example if you want to use a horn theme for your sound design, consider a progression like this:
Horse Race Bugle Call for start game
Sad Trombone or Fog Horn for gutter balls
Bike Horn for 10 points
Ahooga Car Horn for 20 points
Car Horn Honk 1 for 30 points
Car Horn Honk 2 for 40 points
Train Horn for 50 points
Air Horn for 100 points
Buzzer for out of time


Scott

[Nephasth]

I like the classic skeeball look! Change the score from yellow to red though.

[nickels]

Nice progress on the build.

Several things about the software:

1. The "W" key registers as a gutter ball/miss instead of the "8".

2. How did you choose those keystrokes.     Not following the logic or layout here.

3. Nice to have sounds, but they don't sound like they are a part of the same game.

For example if you want to use a horn theme for your sound design, consider a progression like this:
Horse Race Bugle Call for start game
Sad Trombone or Fog Horn for gutter balls
Bike Horn for 10 points
Ahooga Car Horn for 20 points
Car Horn Honk 1 for 30 points
Car Horn Honk 2 for 40 points
Train Horn for 50 points
Air Horn for 100 points
Buzzer for out of time


Scott

1. Oops - I don't really have an 8th switch on my set-up so I just put it in there for those who do. On mine if you miss everything you get a free return. My kids are too young to punish them for total misses.
2. I have an iPac. I used that as my key guide. I wanted the switches controlled by the right side of the iPac, and the buttons controlled by the left side. There wasn't much thought put into it past that.

IPAC Controls
2RIGHT: g (100)
2LEFT: d (100)
2UP: r (50)
2DOWN: f (40)
2SW1: a (30)
2SW2: s (20)
2SW3: q (10)
2SW4: w (0 - miss)

LEFT SIDE:
1STRT: 1 (up, controls menu)
1COIN: 5 (open menu, select options)
1A: p (down, controls menu)

Make sense now?

3. Like I said, this is really early so I just wanted some sounds to play. I will check these out and incorporate them into the next update. Free, good sounds are hard to find. I had a ton of trouble locating some good arcade sound effects in a short amount of time.

[nickels]

I like the classic skeeball look! Change the score from yellow to red though.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll fix that next!
See, you people are working with a graphics designer here. I am used to feedback and criticism. Please keep it coming. My skin is thick so I can take it

This software is still way in beta in my mind. I really haven't spent much time on the Flash just yet. It is working, but that is about it. While it will always be a work in progress, right now I'd say I'm about 10% to where I want to be with it.

[ids]

Love the skeeball builds, and this one in particular.  Good job!

[nickels]

Minor update - the table is now 100% playable! Not sure if the fact that we can now play the game will make me want to work harder to finish it or relax and slow down a bit.


*Wood backing is only there temporarily to keep the balls from flying out of the back until I can finish working on that section.

The rings have all been riveted together and attached to the wood piece with holes cut out. The holes are all covered in fabric to protect the wood balls. A layer of foam padding needs to be cut to size and glues to the area next to help mute the sound of balls smashing into it. The main ramp area needs to be covered in cork. My last major hurdles are adding the switches, PC, and monitor to the marque area, adding foam to the scoring ring area, covering the ramp with a sheet of cork, then giving it a good once over with wood filler and sand paper. I imagine someday I'll paint it glossy black enamel and some black t-molding as well.

Need opinions - I can get one 1/4" cork sheet custom cut to around 7'x18" for $60 shipped - or - I can get 1/8" in a roll that is 18"x30' for $45 shipped (the ramp width is 18"). The second option allows me to do a double layer of cork on the ramp to give it 1/4" depth and I'll still have a ton of cork left over to add it around the top of the machine where balls hit when thrown too hard. Not sure if I should go with the 1/4 sheet or get the 1/8 sheets which are cheaper with tons left over just in case.

[Nephasth]

Need opinions - I can get one 1/4" cork sheet custom cut to around 7'x18" for $55 shipped - or - I can get 1/8" in a roll that is 18"x30' for $45 shipped (the ramp width is 18"). The second option allows me to do a double layer of cork on the ramp to give it 1/4" depth and I'll still have a ton of cork left over to add it around the top of the machine where balls hit when thrown too hard. Not sure if I should go with the 1/4 sheet or get the 1/8 sheets which are cheaper with tons left over just in case.

I think the cork lane on my machine is 1/8" or 3/16". I'd throw down one layer of 1/8" and see how that works out. If you're not satisfied, throw down another layer. And a +1 for putting cork down around the score area and the back wall that gets impacted.

[nickels]

Design wise, I already regret using 1/2" plywood on the sides instead of 3/4". Hopefully by adding t-molding and some paint it will look better, but I'm already second guessing my initial decision. I didn't want it to weigh a ton and I'm building everything and moving it all around by myself. Cabs made with 3/4 MDF have that professional, realistic look. After all the work I am putting in on this the last thing I want is to have it look like a homemade POS.

[Le Chuck]

Design wise, I already regret using 1/2" plywood on the sides instead of 3/4". Hopefully by adding t-molding and some paint it will look better, but I'm already second guessing my initial decision. I didn't want it to weigh a ton and I'm building everything and moving it all around by myself. Cabs made with 3/4 MDF have that professional, realistic look. After all the work I am putting in on this the last thing I want is to have it look like a homemade POS.

Break out the flush trim bit and do 1/4" plywood overlay for the sides.  You could even make it removable with few well placed bolts.  It will give you that nice look you want while cutting down on the single piece weight if you have to move it. 

[nickels]

Not much to update so I'll try to be quick. I added the front panel where the balls come to rest on the table. I still need cut out the buttons to the left of the ball return slot. My cork sheet arrived - 1/8" seems just fine. I was going to do two layers but that seems like overkill. You can see it below, but it is not glued in place yet:


I have the flash software updated to have volume control since sound effects are used. Still trying to find the perfect group of sounds for when the balls go into the holes. Horns are OK, but not really my style. I'm looking for a cohesive set of chimes for each hole. Tomorrow I work a half-day, so I'm hoping to make a lot more progress on this. With a newborn in the house I haven't been able to do anything in weeks.

[mcseforsale]

subscribed.

AJ

[nickels]

I added the marque area and mounted the monitor. The cork sheet has also been glued to the table. Sorry for the terrible iPhone photos:


Here is a closer view taken before I trimmed the white wood pieces between the ramp and scoring area:


There are two pieces of wood below the monitor, these will be covered in cork as the ball can hit them if thrown hard enough. I also need to trim and add a layer of PVC Foam around the rings to muffle the sounds. The orange felt will be mostly hidden when everything is in place, that is just there to protect the wood balls from chipping on the wood holes.

Only a few more pieces of wood need to be cut (the top and back), and only a few more holes for buttons and it is almost go time. I'll be adding the buttons, switches, and PC very soon. I also need to add some speed bump bags to the bottom rings.

As for the flash game it is almost finished - it now has full sound effects and volume control. While I'm sure some people will hate it, I went with Mario Brother sound effects for the scoring, pause, and game over sounds. At least I know that my kids will love it.

[nickels]

I am so close it hurts, but I have zero time these days so the final steps will probably take all summer. Here are some shots of the process where I am cutting foam and adding it to the ring area:

My technique of cutting out construction paper and taping it until it fits the shape.


I take the shape, trace it onto the foam, and finally cut out the final form. Here is the area totally covered in foam:

This made a huge difference. The table is super quiet now. When I do test tosses the people upstairs can't hear a thing.

I also added some speed bumps at the bottom of the two large rings. They are two small pieces of Frost King Rubber Weather Strips. They have adhesive backs but I glued them in place. This keeps the ball from rolling up and down over and over and forces it down the hole. It works better than expected and I have tons left over in case I need to reapply new ones in the future.

The monitor is in place and ready to go (terrible photo)


The "public" version of my Flash skee ball controller is almost finished. I'll publish a link to it here once I have it fully tested.

There are no real major hurdles left, just busy work like adding the switches to keep score and wire them to the iPac controller. I also need to wire in a button that makes the PC power on and off. The front buttons need to be connected to the PC's molex connector in order to light up. A layer of cork is still needed on the top angled parts below the monitor for those hard shots to cushion the blow. I need to drill some holes above the monitor for the soundbar behind it. Then comes the finishing stuff like wood filling the screw holes, sanding, taping off, priming, and painting. Oh yeah, I need to add numbers to the rings as well. Sheesh, it never ends. For the rest of the forever I'll be creating, designing, and coding more games to play on it. I have some fun ideas that I can't wait to try out.

Hope to finish this before the summer is over.... we'll see.

This plays way better than I ever expected. I can hit every hole if the ball is thrown properly, and no amount of force will make it hit the monitor due to the slope of the ramp. I will probably add safety bars covered in a net in the future just to be safe. My daughter almost hit it by accidentally throwing the ball instead of rolling it.

[nickels]

My kid doing a test run, you can almost hear the sound effects in the background

[z-kun]

Man, I would have loved to have access to a kid-sized skee ball unit as a kid! XD In arcades, sometimes I would sneak part way up the skee ball machines so I'd have a bit of an easier time.

This is awesome and I love the Mario sound effects in it!

[alteredgrafix]

This is awesome! I have always wanted a skee-ball machine! My kids would go ape over something like this. I will be watching this thread for a while.

[nickels]

Since thatPurpleStuff used LED lights on his custom skeeball/flash controlled table - I MUST COPY HIS EVERY MOVE! haha
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,91011.msg955003.html#msg955003

I am replacing the iPac that controls the switches with a 16 in-out model LEDWiz controller:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=82&products_id=306

This limits my LED lighting to only 16 separate lights, but that should be plenty, and the 16 input device controllers are more than enough to register all of scoring switches and buttons on my table without the iPac. There are 7 holes (100, 100, 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10) so I can use two LEDs for each hole: possibly yellow and blue. I imagine if I send the command to light both simultaneously I'll get a green option as well. Time to learn how to wire and control LEDs with Flash. This project just got a lot more complicated, and fun.

[nickels]

Any electronics folks here want to confirm that this diagram is correct? I sent this question to Randy at groovygamegear.com, but I am really anxious to get this all wired and working.



I can figure most of it out separately - like making a single LED light up with the software, or registering button pushes. Adding in a siren that needs more voltage makes the wiring a lot more complicated.

[RandyT]

I see some issues.

The image is showing an LED-Wiz, so you may want to make clear that it is a +GP version   Those buttons, of course, wouldn't work on a standard LED-Wiz.

The rotating lamp will likely draw too much current, so a small 12v relay is in order there.

The LED's would probably be better off on 5v power instead of 12v.  Otherwise, they are wired correctly.

[nickels]

The man himself - thanks for the quick reply. I already burnt the bejesus out of my fingers soldering some test led lights, so I'd like to keep my personal injury as minimal as possible on the rest of this never-ending project.

Sorry - yes I have the +GP model which has inputs as well as outputs!!!!

I challenge anyone to find the correct image of one online. Even on your site it doesn't show the actual +GP unit, as it is missing the crucial bank voltage select piece shown on the above GP image which is my main concern for the wiring.

Nice to know I got this right, and now I have to look up what the heck a 12 volt relay is and what it does.

THANKS!

[nickels]

Updated wiring diagram:


I think I understand how the relay works now. The connection between a device and its power source is disconnected by the relay. When you send a small current into the relay an electromagnet is formed internally, and the connection is bridged between the device and its power source. This allows me to send more than 5v to the siren light if needed. This also allows me to use the LEDwiz to power the LEDs and the relay. Hope I got this right!?!?!

[RandyT]

Updated wiring diagram:
I think I understand how the relay works now. The connection between a device and its power source is disconnected by the relay. When you send a small current into the relay an electromagnet is formed internally, and the connection is bridged between the device and its power source. This allows me to send more than 5v to the siren light if needed. This also allows me to use the LEDwiz to power the LEDs and the relay. Hope I got this right!?!?!

Sounds about right, but since you will have 12v connected to the relay anyway, you can just use a 12v relay, so long as the LED-Wiz bank you are hooking the switching voltage to is set up for 12v.

You can use a small 5v relay from the USB port the way you show, but if you are running power from the PC supply anyway, you might as well not limit yourself to to the 500ma the USB port is rated for, and connect your parts directly to the 5v line of the supply.

[nickels]

Please keep in mind that my electronic level of expertise is somewhere around "educated dummy". Let me summarize my lifetime of electronic related projects: NOTHING!
With that in mind, this is slowly making sense and I am reading articles and forums constantly. Working this all out is is very frustrating to say the least, so I greatly appreciate the feedback and support.

My LED lights have no info on them other than voltages, but I think they are rated 20mA for each light. I am controlling 14 of them (7 red, 7 blue), so that is the max that can be lit all at once: 14x20ma=280ma. Even worse case that the red is 50ma it still adds up to 490mA if all LEDs are lit at once - which would be rare.

It seems that I am not so much limiting myself by the USB power, as it covers my needs. Sure, I can use the 5v from the molex to power everything, but I'm not seeing the advantage to making the wiring that much more complicated? Again, if I was an expert it would probably makes sense, but to me it seems the simpler the better.

[nickels]

OK - here is my final wiring diagram. I have enlisted help from a friend who is more skilled than I am at electronics:


1. Even though the usb outputs enough power (500mA) - all LEDs and the relay will be powered by the PC via the red 5v wire on the molex cable.
2. The siren will be powered by an outlet.
3. The siren's cord will be fully cut and connected to the relay so that in it's NO state the connection is fully broken and it gets no power. I am cutting both the hot and ground, as it is fully disconnected this way. You could use a SPST relay and only cut the hot wire which comes off of the smaller prong on the power cord.
4. To make the siren work, the LEDWiz will send power to the relay to bridge the connection and the siren will go on, powered by the outlet.
5. I added a fuse to the 5v line as a safety precaution. I am not sure this is necessary.

This is about a full week of non-stop research and asking questions to the pros. I hope this helps out out beginners who want to know how to make all of these complex connections. If anyone sees any problems with this please let me know and I will fix the diagram. Thanks!