Critique my control panel layout please!

[popester]

Howdy,

I'm building a four player cab and I'm basing my control panel roughly off of the one that mameroom.com ships since it seems to be rather well thought out.  A few details that might need explaining:

1) I can't think of a great reason to include more than four buttons for P3 and P4.  The only ones I were able to come with up are SNES and newer emulated games.  Any thoughts there?

2) I think the 7th button for the neo-geo is where I want it, but I'm open to feedback there.

3) The trackball is centered with the world, and P1 and P2 are equidistant away, about as far as possible to leave space for slammers.

4) The top has a dedicated four way plus three buttons.  The eight other buttons are for player and coin buttons.

5) Admin buttons were placed to discourage hitting exit and load, since those can be somewhat catastrophic.  Power will be on the back of the cab.

Any thoughts or feedback?  This is the first control panel I've designed so it would be nice to get feedback from more experienced folks

[PL1]

Assuming that 8 of the unlabeled buttons at the top are coin and start buttons for P1 - P4, what are the four other un-labeled admin buttons for? 

Have you completely thought through your selection of dedicated admin functions?

Have you tried the 7-button layout on cardboard yet?  The spacing seems a little wide, especially for the 7th button.  Slagcoin has some good layouts / spacing info to consider.

Is there enough room for P3 and P4 to rest their wrist?  P1 and P2 have more room.

Looks like there is a lot of empty space between the player buttons and the admin buttons.  Have you considered reducing that gap somewhat?


Scott

[paigeoliver]

You can drop the 7th button unless you or your best buds are real neo geo fighting pros. Even if you are it tends to work better on the other side and real Neo Geo cabinets don't have such a dramatic drop on that 1st button. In fact dropping that low makes it harder to play the Neo geo titles, not easier.

Panel is way too big and deep.

Do you have children or do you live in a frat house? If neither are true then player 3 and 4 will almost never get used. Grown men don't like to squish in like that. I know from experience they will take turns 2 at a time on a 4 player machine instead of squeezing in all at once.

[popester]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Answers inline:

Assuming that 8 of the unlabeled buttons at the top are coin and start buttons for P1 - P4, what are the four other un-labeled admin buttons for? 

Dedicated 4 way and buttons.

Have you completely thought through your selection of dedicated admin functions?

I think so, but I would love some feedback on them.  The most thought is around what I'll want and how to avoid hitting exit and load, since that could be disastrous.

Is there enough room for P3 and P4 to rest their wrist?  P1 and P2 have more room.

Yes.  I've actually got this printed out and it seems pretty good.

Looks like there is a lot of empty space between the player buttons and the admin buttons.  Have you considered reducing that gap somewhat?

For what reason? (other than the thing being huge)

You can drop the 7th button unless you or your best buds are real neo geo fighting pros. Even if you are it tends to work better on the other side and real Neo Geo cabinets don't have such a dramatic drop on that 1st button. In fact dropping that low makes it harder to play the Neo geo titles, not easier.

Ok, that seems like pretty good logic.  Why do so many CPs have the seventh button in that location?

Panel is way too big and deep.

It's big and deep for a reason: sight lines to the 27" screen, and its a 27" screen so you don't want to be too close anyway

Do you have children or do you live in a frat house? If neither are true then player 3 and 4 will almost never get used. Grown men don't like to squish in like that. I know from experience they will take turns 2 at a time on a 4 player machine instead of squeezing in all at once.

Well, on one hand how is the CP too big and yet too small at the same time?   I've printed this out and seems like it will work with my buddies and we're not small.  I decided on a four player cabinet and that's what I'm building damnit!  This may also end up in the office where the four players may get used more than average.  I also really want the simpsons/TNMT experience to be really good.

Any other thoughts?

[Dawgz Rule]

It might look good on paper but I would have to agree that it is pretty large.   I have a 29" screen on my cabinet and just dragged a tape measure across to see what 48" of panel would look like and it looked like it needed to be fueled up and ready for takeoff.    I was all hyped up about making a four player cab and I am glad I did not.  I am lucky enough to have two people playing at any given time.  That aside, you have to do what is right for you.  Even as a four player, I would consider sizing it down.  There is plenty of space to do it and still have adequate visibility. 

The button spacing looks uncomfortable, especially button 7.  Here is a good link to button layouts that you may find helpful.  Won't argue the merits of curved or straight buttons as there are plenty of other threads about that:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

I originally liked the mameroom.com design but after doing some additional research I found it to be dated.  A lot of valuable info can be found right here.

Consider what games you are going to play as well.  Do you really need dedicated four way sticks or is a convertible stick an option?  I opted for convertible sticks and found that it is very rare that I actually play a game that requires a four way.  I don't regret the decision because the real estate is the same but I may have if I had added two dedicated four way sticks.

In the end, it really amounts to whatever makes you happy.  I didn't care about artwork so I picked "off the rack" stuff from Game on Grafix....others spend a great deal of time there (with incredible results).  Again, whatever floats your boat. 

[chopperthedog]

Mount a 42" or larger screen on the wall and make the control panel a heavy pedestal about 3ft off the wall. Big control panel needs a big screen.


good day.

[PL1]

Looks like quite a reach for that 4-way stick.  Won't that get uncomfortable pretty quick?

Assuming that load=enter, the admin buttons look pretty good.  I use menu (tab) instead of mute, but you may want to avoid having customers on the phone hearing the turtles yell "cowabunga!"   

Looks like there is a lot of empty space between the player buttons and the admin buttons.  Have you considered reducing that gap somewhat?

For what reason? (other than the thing being huge)

You need a better reason?  Consider how far you have to reach to hit the desired buttons.

Why do so many CPs have the seventh button in that location?

Nothing wrong with the general location, just some folks have different layout preferences and use 1/2/3/* instead of 7/4/5/6 as 1, 2, 3, and 4 for neo geo games. (Once again, see Slagcoin for a variety of options.)

    1  2  3  *
    4  5  6
7 

If you compare the center-to-center distance from 4-1 or 4-5, the distance from 4-7 will be 1.4 times as far, meaning more effort/strain to reach it.

Definitely make a cardboard or hardboard mockup with real buttons before you drill on the panel.

Panel is way too big and deep.

It's big and deep for a reason: sight lines to the 27" screen, and its a 27" screen so you don't want to be too close anyway

Do you have children or do you live in a frat house? If neither are true then player 3 and 4 will almost never get used. Grown men don't like to squish in like that. I know from experience they will take turns 2 at a time on a 4 player machine instead of squeezing in all at once.

Well, on one hand how is the CP too big and yet too small at the same time?   I've printed this out and seems like it will work with my buddies and we're not small.  I decided on a four player cabinet and that's what I'm building damnit!  This may also end up in the office where the four players may get used more than average.  I also really want the simpsons/TNMT experience to be really good.

I think he meant too big depth-wise and too small width-wise.

With a screen that size I can understand wanting to be sure the players are standing far enough away.

+1 on probably not using P3/P4 very much, but YMMV.

One way to keep the P3/P4 option available is to make a 2-player panel with Neutrik USB feedthrus on the side of the CP box to plug in USB gamepads.



Bonus: You can also use them for other specialized/standalone controllers like analog sticks, SW yoke, Tron stick, dedicated Defender/Stargate layout, etc.


Scott

[popester]

Assuming that load=enter, the admin buttons look pretty good.  I use menu (tab) instead of mute, but you may want to avoid having customers on the phone hearing the turtles yell "cowabunga!"   

Yea, mute is pretty necessary for the wife approval factor.  Load in this case means load the last save state.  I use save states pretty frequently on the control emulators so I'd like those two buttons easily accessible.  I figure the enter action on menus will be the P1 1st button.  I don't think that will be a problem will it?

[Unstupid]

and real Neo Geo cabinets don't have such a dramatic drop on that 1st button.

Actually, they do drop that low.

[PL1]

Assuming that load=enter, the admin buttons look pretty good.  I use menu (tab) instead of mute, but you may want to avoid having customers on the phone hearing the turtles yell "cowabunga!"   

Yea, mute is pretty necessary for the wife approval factor.  Load in this case means load the last save state.  I use save states pretty frequently on the control emulators so I'd like those two buttons easily accessible.  I figure the enter action on menus will be the P1 1st button.  I don't think that will be a problem will it?

Never really messed with save states, but sounds like you've got a handle on them.

P1B1 = select should be fine, just asked to see how you were planning on using the admin buttons.

Do you also want a variable volume control (potentiometer or Vol+/Vol- buttons) in addition to the mute button or is sound an all-or-nothing deal?

Also, I forgot to ask earlier if you wanted flippers for Visual Pinball/Future Pinball.   


Scott

[popester]

I thought about the pinball buttons, but the sides of my control panel box are angled away from the user (in addition to being xbox hueg), so I decided to pass.  I was also thinking about mounting the coin buttons underneath, but decided having them up top would be more user friendly.  Ideally the wife should be able to use the thing after seeing it used once

The volume up and down are also good ideas, but I think I'm going to pass.  My cab is going to have a drawer with a keyboard so I'll be able to manually change it with that.  My speakers are pretty weak as well, so they'll probably always be maxed.  One interesting idea is to put a button on the bottom of the control panel box and have that act as the shift key.  So I could shift + P1B1 to vol up and shift + P1B2 to vol down, or something similar.  I'm using an ipac should that should be doable right?  Any thoughts about implementing a shift button?  The big issue seems to be the usability/learnability problem with them...

[PL1]

I thought about the pinball buttons, but the sides of my control panel box are angled away from the user (in addition to being xbox hueg), so I decided to pass. 

One guy building a 4-player panel was recently planning to put flipper buttons on the top of the CP near the front lip, one between P1/P3 and one between P2/P4 IIRC.

The only other thing you need is a button mapped to enter to use as the ball launcher/plunger.

I was also thinking about mounting the coin buttons underneath, but decided having them up top would be more user friendly. Ideally the wife should be able to use the thing after seeing it used once

On the subject of coin buttons, have you seen GGG's CDR buttons?

The volume up and down are also good ideas, but I think I'm going to pass.  My cab is going to have a drawer with a keyboard so I'll be able to manually change it with that.  My speakers are pretty weak as well, so they'll probably always be maxed.  One interesting idea is to put a button on the bottom of the control panel box and have that act as the shift key.  So I could shift + P1B1 to vol up and shift + P1B2 to vol down, or something similar.  I'm using an ipac should that should be doable right?  Any thoughts about implementing a shift button?  The big issue seems to be the usability/learnability problem with them...

I-Pac default shift key is P1 start. Full list of default keycodes in the right column here.

If you decide to use shift keys for functions, you'll probably want to add a sticker with directions on your bezel like this.



Scott

[edekoning]

Mount a 42" or larger screen on the wall and make the control panel a heavy pedestal about 3ft off the wall. Big control panel needs a big screen.

I have to agree with chopperthedog. Most of these huge 4-player panels just look weird when stuck on a cabinet. You should really consider going with those USB passthroughs that PL1 mentioned. I have them for the occasional 3/4 player sessions. However, if you are really set on a big 4 player panel, then go build it! But before you do cut out the shape in a cheap/thin piece of MDF. Then drill small holes where you want the joysticks and insert screwdrivers. That way you can try out the panel first and actually grab something representing a joystick. Adjust button and joystick placement until you are happy. Oh and do not forget to test with 4 people simultaneously, preferably with the people you expect to play those 4-player games with. As was mentioned before, it makes a lot of difference if 4 adults are supposed to use it, or a mix of children and adults.

[rCadeGaming]

I'm building a four player cab

I'd agree with everyone else who's questioned the 4 player controls.  Save it for a showcase cab.  I'm making a two player cab with a 27" screen.  When two more want to join they can plug in a portable arcade controller (check my projects thread in my signature).  I'm thinking of making some little folding stands for them to rest on.

I think the 7th button for the neo-geo is where I want it, but I'm open to feedback there.

The first panel I ever built had a 7-button layout almost exactly like the Northcoast Customs one.  I trashed it in less than a week.  IMHO, the square six layout is no good for comfort and playability, and that 7th button position makes it much worse.  I was playing a lot of NEO GEO games and I couldn't stand it.

Read the page on Slagcoin that's been linked to.  After trying a few things, I settled on the Sega Astro City layout.  Highly recommend!

As a matter of fact I'd recommend reading through that entire site, especially the comparison of different joysticks and buttons. 

You haven't mentioned what sticks and buttons you'll be using.  Don't just buy a bunch of Happ stuff because you think it's "the standard" or something.  The sticks we were used to in American arcades when we were growing up were in those cabinets because they were cheap and available here, not because they were the best for actually playing the games.

Whatever you choose, you'll probably be sorry if you just pick something quickly and build the final panel, and then you're stuck with it.  I'd recommend building a quick and dirty test panel and trying it out in actual gameplay for a couple days, or even weeks, with all different kinds of games.  It's best to go through several revisions to find what's best.

[paigeoliver]

Also be careful you don't listen too much to the fanboys of the Asian hardware, who will insist that they way they did it in Japan was so much better. I have used Asian hardware extensively (Super Neo 29 and Namco Exceleena owner), American hardware (countless) and classic American hardware (countless) extensively and the Asian stuff is nothing special, the sticks are pretty precise but they feel SO CHEAP. The curved button layouts have little to do with playability (even the Japanese Streetfighter 2 layout showed the 3x2 straight layout) and everything to do with the manufacturers of Candy cabinets wanting to support SNK's specific Neo Geo layout and normal titles in the same machine, and then it sort of turned into a tradition from there. If the actual game manufacturers thought the curved button layout was superior than they would have put it on their dedicated cabinets or on the button layouts for their conversion kits, they didn't. In fact, SF IV was the first dedicated arcade cabinet I ever saw with the curved button layout and those actually used an off the shelf (predrilled) cabinet from another manufacturer. Plus most people way over do their curve, the curves on most of the real candy cabinets were very mild. Not trying to hate on Asian controls, I use them on my imported machines, but they just aren't that special.

Having used at least 100 different models I would have to say the BEST joystick I ever used is the Happ P360 with the bat stick replaced with a 4" Wico balltop handle. Followed by leaf switch Wico, leaf switch Midway and microswitch wico with grommet. The Happ /iL Universal is a surprisingly good stick (particularly in 4-way mode) for something usually seen on Skill Cranes, and you can never go wrong with the basic happ super, which has a very balanced range of movement and good overall feel.

Avoid the Happ/iL Competition and Ultimate models, their movement range favors the diagonals which makes some games difficult to play.

I'm building a four player cab

I'd agree with everyone else who's questioned the 4 player controls.  Save it for a showcase cab.  I'm making a two player cab with a 27" screen.  When two more want to join they can plug in a portable arcade controller (check my projects thread in my signature).  I'm thinking of making some little folding stands for them to rest on.

I think the 7th button for the neo-geo is where I want it, but I'm open to feedback there.

The first panel I ever built had a 7-button layout almost exactly like the Northcoast Customs one.  I trashed it in less than a week.  IMHO, the square six layout is no good for comfort and playability, and that 7th button position makes it much worse.  I was playing a lot of NEO GEO games and I couldn't stand it.

Read the page on Slagcoin that's been linked to.  After trying a few things, I settled on the Sega Astro City layout.  Highly recommend!

As a matter of fact I'd recommend reading through that entire site, especially the comparison of different joysticks and buttons. 

You haven't mentioned what sticks and buttons you'll be using.  Don't just buy a bunch of Happ stuff because you think it's "the standard" or something.  The sticks we were used to in American arcades when we were growing up were in those cabinets because they were cheap and available here, not because they were the best for actually playing the games.

Whatever you choose, you'll probably be sorry if you just pick something quickly and build the final panel, and then you're stuck with it.  I'd recommend building a quick and dirty test panel and trying it out in actual gameplay for a couple days, or even weeks, with all different kinds of games.  It's best to go through several revisions to find what's best.

[rCadeGaming]

Uuuugh... you're coming out swinging and calling me a fanboy.  I didn't even say what my favorite sticks and buttons were, I just said to consider everything.

the Asian stuff is nothing special, the sticks are pretty precise but they feel SO CHEAP.

The build quality of a Sanwa is arguably the highest.  Happ are pretty poor since they decided to outsource production to China.  If you want an American style stick, you should at least get an iL Eurojoystick.

Your perception of Japanese sticks feeling "cheap" is most likely because of the low spring tension.  This is easily fixed with a heavier spring, if that's your preference.  You could make as heavy as a Happ if you wanted to, although I can't grasp why anyone would think the stick needs to have that much resistance.

It is possible to play with a little finesse, flicking the stick around with your fingers and wrist.  You don't have to yank on it with your whole arm you know.

The curved button layouts have little to do with playability

Sorry but this is just plain wrong.  Of course it has to do with playability.  Print out the Astro City layout from Slagcoin and lay your hand over it.  It's shaped that way because that's the natural line your fingers make.  Playing is more natural when the layout conforms to your hand.  It shouldn't have to be the other way around.

Not trying to hate on Asian controls, I use them on my imported machines, but they just aren't that special.

Having used at least 100 different models I would have to say the BEST joystick I ever used is the Happ P360 with the bat stick replaced with a 4" Wico balltop handle. Followed by leaf switch Wico, leaf switch Midway and microswitch wico with grommet.

Paige, I think your preferences reflect that you play a lot of the older classic games a lot.  Not that there's anything wrong with that; I love some Ms. Pac-Man.

For me, I play mostly stuff from the 90's to current, and a JLF suits me better.  Playing 2d fighters or shmups on a serious level with American hardware is kind of laughable.

It will be up to the OP and what era/genres he's focusing on.

[paigeoliver]

I don't need to print the Astro City layout, my Exceleena has basically the same layout.

I didn't really mean fanboy as an insult. You could say the same to me about American style balltop sticks, using cheap PCs and mame version .55.

[brad808]

The more games I play the more I realize buttons don't really matter that much to me. Layout or manufacture. I don't really feel I've ever lost a game because I couldn't find it or it didn't feel right.

I find joystick choice to have a much larger impact on how much I enjoy a game. I definitely feel I've lost a bunch of games based on what joystick I was using at the time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

[rCadeGaming]

I would *kind of* argue the button thing.  There are pretty crappy buttons out there.  The Sanwa's I have now definitely give you an edge over the crappy X-arcade buttons I started with a few years ago; but you can get other perfectly fine American style buttons of course.  I don't think I could say that my Sanwa's are measurably better than iL competition buttons.  It's preference at that point.

Agreed though, the stick is MUCH more important.  I'd say sticks are most important, followed by layout, then buttons.