Main > Monitor/Video Forum
Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
rCadeGaming:
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---I'm using XP32. I think I might actually have a 64 bit processor, but no copy of XP64. Maybe it doesn't matter that much.
--- End quote ---
How fast is your pc? I don't think MAME will utilitze multiple processors unless you get a special version, but 64 bit windows is helpful in that it will allow background processes to run on one processor, leaving another free for MAME.
There's nothing difficult about XP 64 beyond getting a copy. Let's just say that there are some people in the world who have copies they didn't pay for, and they work great. That's all I'll say about that, don't ask me about it.
If you do have a dual core or more, there's no reason not to take advantage of it.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---I'm excited to hunt down one of those TVs. I think I'd REALLY like a curved screen, but am willing to sacrifice that detail if it means a nice picture.
--- End quote ---
Just get one of those and compare, then make your decision. Be sure you're comparing with an actual 15kHz progressive signal. A Super Nintendo would be a simple test source if you've got one. Composite will be fine for comparison, since both TV's will accept it. On the Sony's we're talking about RGB would be very slightly sharper and cleaner with better color, but the difference between your current TV will still be very clear.
What exactly is your current TV? Make, model number, and manufacture date will be listed on the back.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---I'm a little scared to discharge the tube in a TV, and not sure what I'm getting into with making a frame. Will all TVs have some sort of tabs or frame around the screen for mounting? It also seems like it'd be a lot easier to safely transport an enclosed TV in the future. If I could fit a 24" in the case in my cab, that'd be awesome! But I'm not getting my hopes up :)
--- End quote ---
Discharging isn't hard. You'll be fine if you follow the instructions here.
The frame depends on how elaborate you want to make it. It really doesn't need to be complicated, just depends how modular you want to make it for removal purposes. Yes, there will likely be useful mounting points on a metal bracket/frame. It's also possible to hack up the plastic case and reuse parts of it.
With the Sony's I mentioned, a lot of their width is due to having speakers on both sides of the screen. After taking off the case and tossing the speakers I think you should be able to get a 24" into a 23" space. My 27" is over 30" wide in the case, but I think the actual tube is under 24". Another benefit of flat tubes is that fitting a bezel is much simpler. Also, they'll have a digital chassis with a service menu for adjusting geometry/brightness/contrast/color levels, etc.
You should check if depth is a concern.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---Good to know about the MC Cthulu being able to convert to work with other systems. While it isn't a priority right now, I like knowing that I'd have the option in the future, since I'll have a tv in there anyway.
--- End quote ---
Yup. You'll need one MC Cthulhu per player, but it's lag free and works great with Windows/MAME. My thinking with my project is to build the most capable cabs possible now, even including features I don't need yet, so I have to build another one down the road.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---Anyway, will MAME automatically take care the resolution switch? I guess I don't know why it wouldn't.
--- End quote ---
MAME lists the resolution of each game. Once you know the resolution the game runs in, you need to set up a suitable resolution for that game in Powerstrip; this includes tweaking it so the geometry looks good on the TV. Then you need to tell MAME to use that specific resolution for that game.
If you leave it up to MAME to auto switch, it doesn't just display the native resolution. It has to try and pick the closest resolution available in your graphics driver, and it might not make the best choice. The resolutions available in your graphics drivers will be the graphics card's defaults, plus the default resolutions added by Soft15kHz, plus the custom resolutions you've added in Powerstrip. It's up to you to tweak the defaults resolutions correctly and add custom ones where needed.
There's also the issue of setting up the refresh rate correctly.
Once you get your hardware together I can run through this step by step for an example game, from setting up Soft15kHz and Powerstrip to setting up MAME for a particular game.
Note that most games run on hardware that's shared with a lot of other games. For example, Street Fighter II runs on CPS-2 hardware, so once you've tweaked up Street Fighter II just right, you can tell MAME to use those setting for all CPS-2 games, as well as CPS-3 since it uses the same resolution. I think CPS-1 as well, but I forget.
Same thing with NEO GEO, once you've set up one NEO GEO game, you're done tweaking for all of them, etc. There's not too many games you'll be concerned with that ran on totally unique hardware.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 11:22:55 am ---
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?
--- End quote ---
I feel like maybe that was a stupid question. I should rephrase that: How will I know if a TV can display 15khz? If I'm insisting on keeping the tv in its own plastic housing, there's a number of sets that will fit and have a curved screen, but I have no idea how to tell if it's compatible. Is that something that would be obviously listed in the manual?
--- End quote ---
You would have a very hard time finding a curved TV that is NOT strictly 15kHz. There might be some in existence, but I've never seen one. It's when you get into flat tubes that you have to worry about the TV scaling 240p to 480p instead of displaying it correctly. The Sony's I mentioned won't have this problem.
It may or may not be listed in the specifications in the manual. If it is, it may be explained in different terminology.
-
I think I should make some things clear about video. Sorry to everyone here that's already familiar with all this.
Scan Rate
A CRT draws each pixel one at a time in order. It starts at the top left corner of the screen and draws individual pixels from left to right, drawing a line. Once it reaches the end of a line on the right side, it jumps back to the left side and down a little bit to begin the next line. It keeps drawing lines like this until it reaches the end of the last line at the bottom right corner, completing a full picture, or one frame. Then it jumps back to the top right to start the next frame.
15kHz refers to the horizontal scan rate, which is the physical speed at which the display can draw from left to right. In order to draw 240 progressive lines at 60 frames per second, the display must draw from left to right at a speed of around 15,750Hz, or about 15kHz. To draw 350 progressive lines, the display must draw at about 24kHz; and to draw 480 progressive lines, the display must draw at about 31kHz.
240p = 15kHz progressive = CGA resolution
350p = 24kHz progressive = EGA resolution
480p = 31kHz progressive = VGA resolution
Note that despite it's name a "VGA cable" doesn't have to carry 480p, it can carry whatever resolution you want.
Vertical scan rate (also called refresh rate or refresh speed) refers to how fast a display can draw from top to bottom. The standard (at least in NTSC territories) is 60Hz, regardless of what the horizontal scan rate is, which results in 60 frames per second.
So far I've only been discussing progressive scan. Progressive scan means that the display draws every line order, completes a full frame, and then draws the next frame.
In interlaced video, the display draws only the odd lines, completing one "field," then draws only the even lines in the next field, and so on. Vertical scan rate remains at 60Hz, so the display still draws from top to bottom at 60 times per second, but each time it does so it only draws half of the lines. Since the display only has to draw half of the total number of lines per field, it can draw twice as many total lines in interlaced video as it can in progressive at the same horizontal scan rate.
In 240p the display must draw from left to right at 15kHz, but it can draw 480i at 15kHz as well. The display is still only drawing 240 lines 60 times per second, whether it's 240p or 480i.
Allowing twice as much resolution without increasing horizontal scan rate is a neat trick, but interlaced video isn't without it's problems. Each frame is actually made of two visible fields, so there's technically now only 30 full frames per second. Since the two fields that make up each frame are actually drawn at slightly different times, if something is moving it will show up in two slightly different places. If the display is sharp enough you can visibly see this.
Scanlines
I think you're already aware that what us gamers call "scanlines" are the black lines in between each line of resolution in low resolution graphics. The reason for these are visible is that a CRT TV will draw lines at the same width, regardless of what resolution it's displaying. That's why a TV with strong scan lines at 240p may have little or none visible at 480i.
If a CRT TV's picture is fairly sharp, it is drawing fairly thin lines. The lines of 240p are fairly spread out, so there's a little black space in between where nothing is drawn. However, when 480i displayed, twice is many lines are visible in the same space, so there may not be any room left in between them.
Scaling
Scaling means converting an image from one resolution to another. In the current context it usually refers to scaling a lower resolution to a higher one, like something around 240p to 480i or 480p.
The first problem with this kind of scaling is that whatever scanlines would have been visible will be greatly diminished or lost entirely.
When scaling 320x240 to 640x480, everything translates evenly. Each original pixel will translate as a block of 4 pixels after scaling. However, most classic games use something close to 240p but not quite. This is the second problem. 392x224 does not translate very smoothly to 640x480.
-
On the curved TV you have now, it may be difficult to tell the difference between proper native resolutions around 240p and things scaled to 480i. Depending on how sharp it is, you may or may not be able to see scanlines or make out individual pixels clearly in 240p.
On the TV's I recommended, it will be clear as day. In anything around 240p, scanlines will be prominent, and individual pixels will be fairly clear. If this is scaled to 480i, that will be lost.
notbillcosby:
Thanks for the incredibly patient reply. I had the basics on the ideas of resolution and interlaced vs progressive, but you absolutely cleared up some specifics. Thanks for taking the time! Onto specifics:
My PC is a 1U server that I happened to get for free last summer, and never had any idea what I was going to use it for until my recent arcade obsession started. I was pleased to find out it has 4gb of ram and 2 dual core (i think) Xeon 2.0ghz processors. I'm pretty sure they're 64-bit, I didn't realize that XP32 didn't take advantage of dual processors... I'll see what I can do.
You bring up my "current TV"... I hardly want to count what I have as a "current" TV. It's way too small. I won't use it in my cabinet. Plus, it sounds like it's going to be easier and smarter to get the signal into a TV with component inputs. A curved screen CRT with component ins would be awesome, but the lure of adjusting geometry via onscreen menus is pretty tempting, and I hadn't thought about the effect it would have on making a bezel.
I did see someone's blog, where they used a hack saw to take the speakers off the side of their TV set to fit it into a cabinet. It actually worked really well and would make transporting the monitor in the future a whole lot easier than having it removed from the case entirely. Ironically, the guy with the blog wound up taking it out of the case and mounting the tube in the cab anyway, to make it more "solid." Dang it. I'm still inclined to try it in the case first, maybe with its ears lopped off. I don't have any of those Sonys showing up in my local Craigslist. I wish there was an easy way to know if other flat tubes of the era would scale to 480p or if they'd work. I always liked Samsung CRTs.
I think setting up all the custom resolutions for individual games is going to be my least favorite part of this arcade build. Maybe I'll just leave a wireless mouse on top of the cab so i can screw with stuff in windows when I need to. I'll deal with that when I get there.
rCadeGaming:
I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV. Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison. Do you have a Super Nintendo?
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:20:44 am ---the lure of adjusting geometry via onscreen menus is pretty tempting
--- End quote ---
Keep in mind that getting into it requires turning the tv off and putting a special command on the remote to turn it on in service mode (with Sony's at least, other manufacturers, including Samsung, require you to connect a jumper on the chassis). It allows some pretty powerful adjustments, but it's very clumsy. You want to get it to a good setting and leave it, it's not something you tweak often like the OSD menu on a PC monitor.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:20:44 am ---I did see someone's blog, where they used a hack saw to take the speakers off the side of their TV set to fit it into a cabinet. It actually worked really well and would make transporting the monitor in the future a whole lot easier than having it removed from the case entirely. Ironically, the guy with the blog wound up taking it out of the case and mounting the tube in the cab anyway, to make it more "solid." Dang it. I'm still inclined to try it in the case first, maybe with its ears lopped off.
--- End quote ---
The end result of this might be optimal for you, but you need to take the tube chassis out while modifying the case, then put it back in. Cutting blind you run a good risk of damaging something inside, or worse electrocution.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:20:44 am ---I don't have any of those Sonys showing up in my local Craigslist.
--- End quote ---
Are just trying to search those model numbers or are you looking over everything. If anyone has any listing that even just says 24" Sony TV for sale, send an email that says "Very interested! What's the model number (you can find it on the back)?"
You can try eBay as well, but it will probably cost you more. Unfortunately the 24" Sony's are probably rarer than the 20" and 27"s.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:20:44 am ---I wish there was an easy way to know if other flat tubes of the era would scale to 480p or if they'd work.
--- End quote ---
Buy and test. I went through over a dozen TV's figuring out what I liked best, though a lot were free.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:20:44 am ---I always liked Samsung CRTs.
--- End quote ---
I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony. It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it. They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.
EDIT: Actually it might have been a Phillips I had. I can't remember, sorry.
notbillcosby:
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 18, 2012, 12:43:54 am ---I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV. Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison. Do you have a Super Nintendo?
--- End quote ---
Two! :) Is there a reason i need to do this, other than to fully appreciate how good this Sony looks?
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 18, 2012, 12:43:54 am ---The end result of this might be optimal for you, but you need to take the tube chassis out while modifying the case, then put it back in. Cutting blind you run a good risk of damaging something inside, or worse electrocution.
--- End quote ---
Of course! I wouldn't think of doing it without opening it up. The guy on the blog managed to take the back off the TV, remove the speakers, measure and cut the wings off the front and back half of the case, then screw it back together all without removing the tube. I'd probably still want to discharge it first to avoid things like death.
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 18, 2012, 12:43:54 am ---I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony. It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it. They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.
--- End quote ---
Noted. Did it scale to 480p?
rCadeGaming:
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:59:11 am ---
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 18, 2012, 12:43:54 am ---I agree with you wanting to get rid your current TV. Just make sure to test it side by side with your new one for comparison. Do you have a Super Nintendo?
--- End quote ---
Two! :) Is there a reason i need to do this, other than to fully appreciate how good this Sony looks?
--- End quote ---
To appreciate the benefits of real 15kHz progressive if they're clear on the Sony but not on the other one. It would also be good have a side by side of real 15kHz progressive next to something scaled.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 18, 2012, 12:59:11 am ---
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 18, 2012, 12:43:54 am ---I had a 27" that was equivalent to my Sony. It was pretty similar, but somehow looked a little too "digital" for me, it lacked the "warmth" of the Sony or something, it didn't look as natural, I can't describe it. They're also a major ---smurfette--- to get in the service menu.
--- End quote ---
Noted. Did it scale to 480p?
--- End quote ---
What's with this smurfette stuff I didn't type that :angry:
No scaling, it was strictly 15kHz. I just didn't like the picture as much and the service menu difficulty was a deal breaker.