Main > Monitor/Video Forum
Newbie TV walkthrough, please!
notbillcosby:
I've been reading this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120798.0
It's become very apparent that I need a few things spelled out for me. I haven't found a really good cut and dry tutorial for how to get MAME graphics to look correct on a consumer television. I've gathered some stuff, but I just need verification on some things! If there's a thread or tutorial that I overlooked, by all means, point me there and I'll stop asking stupid questions.
Just to start off- I have a gutted cabinet, a rack mount server that will be the MAME brains, one open PCI slot for whatever video card I will need to do this properly, and a 20" TV with RCA composite inputs that I hope to replace with something a bit larger (but not by much... my cab is 23" wide on the inside). I have no intention of playing console games on here, unless I'm using emulators to do that too... but that's a pretty low priority for me.
I've gathered that I need to get a video card that's compatible with Soft15khz, so that my videocard is outputting a resolution that will look good on my TV and display games in the resolution they were intended to be in. Correct?
I'll also need some way to convert my VGA output to RCA composite. It sounds like the goal is to get things at 240p, which my old TV would be able to display via the composite input. I'm not sure if there's special steps to get this to work, or if i just need a box that has a VGA-in and a Composite-out and the right resolution being pushed through it.
Is this all there is to it?
rCadeGaming:
*****
MAJOR EDIT - IMPORTANT - READ THIS FIRST:
I wanted to post some updates on the first page so anyone reading this for the first time would see it first.
A general disclaimer for this whole thing is that while this thread specifically refers to using a 15kHz CRT TV for native resolutions in MAME, EVERYTHING HERE applies perfectly to doing the exact same thing with a 15kHz (CGA) arcade monitor. The only difference is that an arcade monitor will not need an RGB to component transcoder, as it can accept the computer's VGA signal directly (the same goes for a TV with an RGB SCART input). It may need something to convert H and V sync to composite sync, but this isn't difficult.
In fact, this applies to 25kHz (EGA) and 31kHz (VGA) arcade monitors as well, but you'll just be working with some different resolutions (or all of them in the case of a tri-sync).
The other update is about GroovyMAME and CRT_Emudriver.
GroovyMAME is a MAME build that has been around for a while now. In addition to some other great features, it is designed to automate some of the setup of native resolutions for CRT's that's discussed in this thread. The automation is not necessarily always perfect, so it's still good to be able to correct things yourself.
Reading through this thread and gaining and understanding of how your TV/monitor works, and how set things up yourself, is still highly recommended.
A problem with GroovyMAME is that it wasn't possible to get around the automated monitor settings, and use your own settings, but this is supposed to change for the next release. I'll be switching be GroovyMAME at this time, and I would highly recommend everyone reading this to do the same. UPDATE: This is out now. I've made the switch, and its a big improvement over other MAME builds.
Here's an interesting conversation I had with Calamity, the creator of GroovyMAME, about this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,128879.msg1318540.html#msg1318540
CRT_Emudriver is a newer alternative to Soft15kHz. There is a lot of talk about Soft15kHz in this thread, but I would highly recommended CRT_Emudriver now. All of the video concepts discussed (resolutions, timing values, etc.) still apply though.
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on October 24, 2013, 10:25:12 am ---
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on October 09, 2013, 10:42:37 am ---Soft15kHz is really not the best option anymore.
First of all, it's silly to use a real CRT and not use GroovyMAME, and that works hand in hand with CRT_Emudriver. GM can generate resolutions on the fly to keep everything native res (and native refresh, very important), saving you a lot of work; and it has a lot of other important features for native res even if you don't use the auto-generation.
Even if not using GM, tweaking your resolutions in Soft15kHz requires editing the text modelines by hand (super tedious), or using Powerstrip. Powerstrip was not really designed for this application, it's very cumbersome, and does not even fit on the screen in lower resolutions. CRT_Emudriver includes ArcadeOSD, which was purposely designed for this, is just as powerful if not more so, more flexible, and much easier to use.
Making the change only takes a couple of minutes once you have the right graphics card (which can be dirt cheap). I started with Soft15kHz, and resisted making the change because I had some GeForce cards on hand (only compatible with Soft15kHz). When I finally switched over to CRT_Emudriver, I was really kicking myself for not doing it sooner.
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*****
I'll include some of your questions from your PM as well.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 09:08:21 pm ---Just to start off- I have a gutted cabinet, a rack mount server that will be the MAME brains
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What operating system? I've had great success with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip in XP64. I haven't tested other OS's but my understanding is that 32-bit XP should work just as well, but any Windows 7 will not work. Not sure about other pre-XP Windows. EDIT: This not out yet, but Calamity is currently working on full support for GroovyMAME and CRT_Emudriver in Windows 7
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 09:08:21 pm ---one open PCI slot for whatever video card I will need to do this properly
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Here's the list for Soft15kHz compatible cards. Search through it and buy whichever PCI card is listed as fully functional and is readily available:
http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 03:00:37 pm ---(the inside of my cabinet measures 23 inches wide... so whatever I can cram in there. I don't think they made the Sony you're using in anything smaller than a 27").
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They did. Mine is a KV-27FS120. There is a KV-20FS series, which includes the KV-20FS100, KV-20FS120 and maybe others, which will be the same thing but smaller. Same thing with the KV-24FS series. You might be able to fit a 24" into your cab easily, probably not a 27" even after taking it out of its case.
All the models above are strictly 15kHz, meaning they can display anything around 240p or 480i. This is what you need. They also have component inputs, which will be easier to get the computer working with, and allow a better picture.
Keep in mind that they are flat tubes with a fairly sharp picture, which I recommend, but you'll have to decide if it's your preference.
From my thread you linked to:
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 16, 2012, 08:30:13 pm ---The one pictured is relatively new. It's from about the last line of 15kHz CRT TV's that Sony made, so it has a flat tube and a digital chassis. It has a relatively fine dot pitch, so it produces a fairly sharp image (for TV's, nothing like a computer monitor) and pretty distinct scan lines, which I prefer. However, since it's relatively sharp, motion feathering is quite apparent with 480i sources.
On the other hand, the fuzzier image produced by an older TV with a coarser dot pitch (like one with a curved tube and only composite inputs) may have no apparent scan lines, but the fuzziness will also hide motion feathering.
Technically a curved tube is more accurate to the arcade, and some people will prefer a fuzzier picture with less or no scanlines. I don't know why anyone would prefer motion feathering, so older TV's may actually be better depending on your preferences.
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These TV's are so cheap and readily available you should just pick one up and set it side to side with your older TV to compare and come to a decision.
Get on Craigslist and search those models. If you don't find anything with the exact model number listed, skim all the TV listings, filtered to view only ones with pictures. Open the ones that look right, and send an email asking the model number. I've picked up many TV's for testing this way. Don't pay over $50. Some people will give nice sets away free.
There is also a KV-20FV and KV-24FV series. Looks like they're also 15kHz with component inputs, but I'm not familiar with them. You'd have to research, or better test, for yourself.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 03:00:37 pm ---I'd prefer to use a TV so I can easily take it back out when I go to move this beast out of my basement when I eventually move out
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Sounds like you mean to leave the TV in it's plastic case. I'd recommend taking it out of the case (remember to discharge the tube), especially if you're trying fit a 24" in. If build a sturdy frame for it, it shouldn't be a problem to take it back out and put it back in.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 03:00:37 pm ---not to mention I'm pretty sure it'd be cheaper to buy an "outdated" TV in a size that would work than buying an arcade monitor.
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Definitely, you can get like new TV's for dirt cheap, whereas even used arcade monitors can be very expensive.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 09:08:21 pm ---I have no intention of playing console games on here, unless I'm using emulators to do that too... but that's a pretty low priority for me.
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Please reconsider:
--- Quote from: rCadeGaming on July 16, 2012, 08:30:13 pm ---There's tons of great console ports of games that aren't yet full speed or even working at all in MAME. Also, there are tons of console exclusive games that are better suited for a cabinet than a controller. Finally, there are some MAME games with very high input lag that are better played on a console port.
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Anyhow, if you use MC Cthulhu boards for your controls and a TV for the monitor, you'll have all the provisions in place to easily plug most consoles right in if you change your mind later.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 09:08:21 pm ---I've gathered that I need to get a video card that's compatible with Soft15khz, so that my videocard is outputting a resolution that will look good on my TV and display games in the resolution they were intended to be in. Correct?
...
It sounds like the goal is to get things at 240p
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The games look much much better when ran in native resolution, meaning the resolution they were originally designed to run in, which they actually did run in in the arcade. These 2d graphics were drawn in a precise number of pixels, and the art looks best when each pixel is reproduced correctly. This is all lost when there is any stretching to a higher resolution. You need to get an appreciation of it in person to see how good native resolution looks on a proper CRT, with scan-lines and an appropriate dot pitch blur to smooth things out and look natural.
The native resolution of the games we're talking about is usually not exactly 240p, but something close. For example, NEO GEO actually ran at 320x224p, and CPS-2 (Street Fighter II) actually ran at 392x224p.
There're actually tons of resolutions around 240p that you'll need to work with, but this is handled in software. Basically, Soft15kHz just enables your graphics card to output low resolutions and gives you a few rough presets. Powerstrip allows you to fine tune your resolutions and add custom ones.
I'll get into the software side later, it's late.
For now you need to get your hardware together, a TV, a graphics card, and a transcoder.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 09:08:21 pm ---I'll also need some way to convert my VGA output to RCA composite... I'm not sure if there's special steps to get this to work, or if i just need a box that has a VGA-in and a Composite-out and the right resolution being pushed through it.
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Hopefully you'll be working with component, not composite, but the TV won't accept VGA so yes you'll need some kind of box. That is unless you get a card that's compatible with Soft15kHz AND has a fully customizable component output, but that sounds pretty rare.
Anyhow, you'll be working with a variety of resolutions around 240p, not just 240p itself, so the final resolution that reaches the TV must be controllable from the PC. This means you need a box that leaves resolution completely alone. This is called a transcoder. A transcoder only translates colorspace and/or sync. Whatever resolution you feed into it is what comes out the other side.
If you use component, the answer is simple. Use a Crescendo Systems TC1600 VGA to Component transcoder. This is what I have and it's outstanding. For VGA cards it's plug and play, and it will give you RGB from your classic systems with a little custom cabling.
If you must use composite, you'll need to do some research. The are a lot of cheap VGA to composite "converters" available, but they upscale everything to 480i. To get a true "VGA to composite transcoder" you'll probably have to pick up a quality used professional rack mount NTSC encoder.
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 16, 2012, 03:00:37 pm ---I plan on making the monitor horizontal, and getting one big enough that vertical games will still be a reasonable size
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You can't display vertical games in native resolution on a 15kHz TV or monitor unless it's oriented vertically. This is because the game is already using about all the resolution the display is capable of in progressive, around 320x240 pixels. To rotate the screen, maintain the full resolution of the game, AND add black bars on the sides requires more resolution that isn't available in progressive. To get this extra resolution, you'll have to run these rotated games upscaled in 640x480 interlaced (or something close to that, depending on the game). It's not optimal, but it's a necessary solution to play both types of games in the same cabinet. This is why I'm building two cabs, one horizontal and one vertical.
notbillcosby:
Thanks so much for the awesomely detailed response! I'm gonna respond without quotes, too much of a pain on the iPod.
I'm using XP32. I think I might actually have a 64 bit processor, but no copy of XP64. Maybe it doesn't matter that much.
I'm excited to hunt down one of those TVs. I think I'd REALLY like a curved screen, but am willing to sacrifice that detail if it means a nice picture. Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?
I'm a little scared to discharge the tube in a TV, and not sure what I'm getting into with making a frame. Will all TVs have some sort of tabs or frame around the screen for mounting? It also seems like it'd be a lot easier to safely transport an enclosed TV in the future. If I could fit a 24" in the case in my cab, that'd be awesome! But I'm not getting my hopes up :)
Good to know about the MC Cthulu being able to convert to work with other systems. While it isn't a priority right now, I like knowing that I'd have the option in the future, since I'll have a tv in there anyway.
That stinks that only the horizontal games will look right. Fortunately, it's really only the way older games that are vertical so maybe a little lower image quality won't seem awful on those, especially if I have a nice clear looking tv. Agh... I do play an awful lot of Ms Pac Man though... Anyway, will MAME automatically take care the resolution switch? I guess I don't know why it wouldn't.
notbillcosby:
Agh! Not even the smallest 20" Sony will fit in my cabinet while still in its case! Uh oh, I see more work in my future...
notbillcosby:
--- Quote from: notbillcosby on July 17, 2012, 01:53:04 am ---Are there curved screen TVs that do 15khz?
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I feel like maybe that was a stupid question. I should rephrase that: How will I know if a TV can display 15khz? If I'm insisting on keeping the tv in its own plastic housing, there's a number of sets that will fit and have a curved screen, but I have no idea how to tell if it's compatible. Is that something that would be obviously listed in the manual?