Crap MAME II: Crap Harder

[Well Fed Games]

Careful now, PBJ is sensitive to post stalking...

Are we talking like horse head in my bed careful?  Did I just stomp on the toes of a BYOAC mafia boss?

Lets just say, it didn't end too well for Ms. Pac Man... 

[drventure]

• Xiaou2:  Is there a reason why you take out the headers from the quotes showing who posted them?  It's frustrating for this reader.

He, like me, might not have realized there's a "QUOTE" button at the top of each post that you can click.

I'd always just copied the part I was quoting and then clicked the little Quote button in the toolbar, but that doesn't put the headers you mentioned on posts.

Or maybe it's intentional. Dunno. But my missing headers were always either me not realizing (or being lazy and not wanting to cut out everything else in the post, once I had realized it  But I try not to do that anymore...

[Dervacumen]

I don't post a ton but I read a lot and I've been around long enough to know this whole idea violates the spirit of BYOAC.  Host it off site if you must.  IMO, the best way to learn in this hobby is to do stuff and try different things to see what works for you.  I mean, it's in the name of the site, right?  This is not Build The Governing Body's Approved Controls.  And doing sometimes results in less than ideal results.  Discovering those on your own is a big part of the enjoyment of this hobby.  But maybe I need to be kicked in to line because I still don't have a back door on my machine, 5 years later.
I've read CrapMame through to the end three times.  It's funny because of the writing, not because of the content.  It could as easily be written about poor landscape design.

[ark_ader]

This rings too much to this thread and to be honest isn't a good idea.  But I will contradict myself right here and say Howards idea has some merit in another avenue.

People tend to look at this website to get more information on an expensive purchase, or to start on a project.  This site is very good for information.  In respect of that, it would be great if Saint expanded more on a Review Forum.  We could get a Turnarcades cab out (for example and not to diss Craig) and have a authentic BYOAC review.

This would help the buying public and the seller of the cabinet, through a series of informal and formal discussions.  That would work better.  In addition I would like to see a Forum of what not to do.  Preferably in the Woodworking, Software, Artwork and Restorations forums. 

It would save hours of searching for what not to do, or practices to avoid.  All with positive and productive feedback.  The community and sellers can contribute also.

That would work in my opinion. 

[Donkbaca]

I don't know, if there is a hall of fame, there might as well be a hall of shame.  FWIW, most people come here to learn how to build, and are paranoid about building something that is ugly and unworkable.  It could be helpful to have a database of "projects gone wrong" just to help people out and show them how hideous something can be.  Some people just aren't good at design, and seeing some of these projects might make them re-think the "I think blue lightning and marble paper would be sweet" sort of thinking.  It has to be done well.  Crap mame is there to make fun of people, not so much to critique what is wrong.  Crap mame did help in my build, helps you realize that you have to keep things like monitor size to cab size, and CP width in mind when you build.  I don't think we need to memorialize the failure of people who come here for help.  Usually if someone posts something that is a bad idea in his build thread, he will get constructive criticism to steer him in the right direction, and if they don't follow that advice, then there is plenty of ridicule.

That said, anyone that is trying to sell this garbage is fair game.  Like the famous Track and Field guy.  There is a difference between someone building garbage to satisfy their own warped aesthetic, quite another to commercialize it.

[Vigo]

I for one did learn a thing or two from the original crapmame. Visually seeing how an idea does not work, IMO, is the best way to avoid duplicating it. The poor execution in those cabinets probably saved more than just a handful people from duplicating those mistakes. It at least makes you seriously look at things like number of buttons to have, width of control panel, materials to use, etc. When all is said and done, it does help people churn out better ideas.

I would like to see some sort of "disasters to avoid" gallery, with all the new types of projects out there, there have been new pitfalls too. I am sure more than a few of us here have made bad mistakes that we want to keep others from making, so we could probably get a lot of creator provided material and put something together without downright bashing peoples work. Maybe it could be put in the wiki or something to keep the ill-spirited heckling away.

[Donkbaca]

You also get a lot of push back too -the franken panel lovers

[DaveMMR]

While the idea of a "what not to do" list sounds good, a lot of people on this forum have funny ideas of what looks good.  It's how we end up with "laptop in cardboard box" designs like Wee-Cade that may look appealing but are horrible as 2 player cabinets and why 2/3s of you have kitchen countertops glued to the side of your games.  

We're just as fad heavy around here as any other hobby and I have to groan when I see some golden oldie bad idea like three control panels on a Midway style cocktail that we were all crazy about in 2005.  In another 5 years we're all going to be rolling our eyes at all the pedestals we're making now.  

Good point.  But I think many people can separate what they personally don't like but still well done from what's just plain sloppy and/or a hindrance to gameplay.

Personally, I hate that "half-octagon" shape panel top, but have seen numerous ones that were very well done and attractive.

[RyoriNoTetsujin]

I am all for constructive criticism, but I think this, the OP, is a bad idea for the larger, overall goal of the BYOAC forum (i.e. bringing in, and encouraging, more people to the hobby.)

Freedom of speech, thick/thin skin whatever, that's fine: but I think you should do it somewhere else. Frankly, I would be kinda shocked if Saint sanctified it by allowing it to happen, even in its' own sub-forum a la P&R.

[saint]

* saint has an opinion but is in lurk mode while people comment.

[elkameleon]

I am all for constructive criticism, but I think this, the OP, is a bad idea for the larger, overall goal of the BYOAC forum (i.e. bringing in, and encouraging, more people to the hobby.)

Freedom of speech, thick/thin skin whatever, that's fine: but I think you should do it somewhere else. Frankly, I would be kinda shocked if Saint sanctified it by allowing it to happen, even in its' own sub-forum a la P&R.

+1 to this, but i'm all for a seperate anonymous blog where I can poke fun and laugh ---my bottom--- off.

[pointdablame]

If someone wants to go make a blog/site like CrapMAME... go ahead.  You'll probably get a few laughs.

The idea of having some kind of ---uvula--- Council at BYOAC to tell people what is good and what isn't though?  Give me a break.  CrapMame works because it's absurd, and it's one guy's opinions.

Turning this into some pseudo-official "committee" is a terrible idea.  Share an opinion on the forums here, and leave it at that.  The internet is already full of ppl pretending they're important - we don't need another one.

[Well Fed Games]

* saint has an opinion but is in lurk mode while people comment.

Don't keep us in suspense!

[javeryh]

I love the idea of awarding MAMEYs or whatever they are called each year for the best projects, themes, new ideas, stand-up, cocktail, rotating, etc.  Have a nomination phase of 2 months (January and February) and then voting in March.  Only allow finished cabs to be nominated or something.  The recognition is definitely encouraging.  I don't think I like the idea of another CrapMAME site though.  We all know it when we see it.   

[Donkbaca]

I think it would be helpful if we had some helpful pointers. Like re: 4p cabs - no more than 4 buttons for p3 and p4; the question as to whether a 4p cab is even worth it.

I think most of the disagreement on here is in regards to the CP.  I think we would all agree on simple pointers, like, no batting in the corners of your marquee so that there is no shadows in the corners' make sure your bezel on each side of your monitor is no more than 2-3 inches, build your cab accordingly; a 2p bartop is almost always umplayable for 2p simultaneous play; you don't need that many admin buttons; etc.

Other things are a little more controversial - like the need for a keyboard tray (not needed IMHO)

Artwork and finish are up to personal taste, but as a general rule woody slim cab = sexy; woody CRT cab = bad piece of furniture.  Contact paper has no place on a cab.  T-molding is always recommended, a bezel is necessary, etc...

I think if we stay away from the CP, there are things most of us can agree on, but even with regards to the CP, I think we can mostly agree that the CP shouldn't be more than a few inches wider than the cab (some would say no wider than the cab at all).  I think we can all agree that controls should be positioned so that they are usable, for example if you want a trackball, it should be in the center, and it should be mounted so you don't see the mounting plate and you should be able to use it without jamming your fingers into anything.

[jimmy2x2x]

I agree with your are saying for the most part, but a slim woody maybe sexy to you but to me it spells poor display solution that will hinder the experience as much as a poor control panel.

[Ond]

Anyone here ever read Orwells Animal Farm? - "two players good, four players BAAAAAD" (and it all seemed like such a good idea at the time).

[DaveMMR]

Donkbaca, I have to say you hit it on the head. 99% of cabinet mistakes "questionable design choices" involve the control panel. Yeah shelf paper is ugly, small monitors in big cabs is unattractive and poor side art is not visually appealing but if the control panel is all there, you can still play an enjoyable game. Even if you're not an arcade purist, there's still a lot less wiggle room for "creativity" when it comes to having a good panel that other parts of the cabinet.

[Howard_Casto]

I didn't expect this to blow up in my face like it did, but I'm glad that people pulled the thread back on track and started getting the discussion going again... that was the whole point btw... I dunno why people get so huffy all the time. 

CrapMAME II isn't happening, at least not officially. 

I think I irony here is I saw it as a positive thing and wanted to make the new one have full transparency to keep it positive.  That's why I suggested things like a review board, and letting everyone know what was going on ect..... The irony comes in that some people, the same people who were concerned about such an idea being negative, bombarded this thread with non-constructive, wholey negative comments that basically "ran me off" from the idea.  Now I'm not mad about it... I just thought it would be something fun the whole community could take part in rather than endless posts about comic book movies. 

It just makes wonder if people realize that even by opposing something you deem as negative, thusly trying to keep things positive from your perspective, you can actually generate much more negativity than the original idea based on how you handle your response.  That goes for me as well, but at least I'm aware of it. 

Anyway, there goes my Dr. Phil moment....  I'm going to concentrate on the awards thread that spawned from this so some portion of this idea can be salvaged.

[Donkbaca]

I think there is merit in helping people that don't have a firm grasp in design by showing them examples of things gone terribly wrong.  It can even be a crap mame thing.  Just don't say stuff like, "that CP looks like my cat ate all my buttons and then diarrhead all over a sheet of MDF"  Instead you can say something like, "this is an example of how too many admin buttons can clutter up a CP".

Unless someone is trying to sell the cab, then game on. 

[Green Giant]

Anyone here ever read Orwells Animal Farm? - "two players good, four players BAAAAAD" (and it all seemed like such a good idea at the time).

If you follow US politics, it is pretty clear that many many people  **cough cough**99 percent kids**cough cough** have not read Animal Farm.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

[Donkbaca]

have you read animal farm? The whole "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" is a phrase that demonstrates the corruption of the leadership and how they serve their own interest, not that of the people.  So the 99% would probably say that they are demonstrating against the pigs who have grown out of touch...  unless I am missing your point

[yotsuya]

have you read animal farm? The whole "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" is a phrase that demonstrates the corruption of the leadership and how they serve their own interest, not that of the people.  So the 99% would probably say that they are demonstrating against the pigs who have grown out of touch...  unless I am missing your point

[Le Chuck]

Howard, you can't name your thread Crap MAME II:  Crap Harder and then expect people to think that you wanted to keep it positive.  I think a well written powerpoint PDF showing various CPs and cabs of questionable design systematically critiqued and then put up in a no nonsense "Common mistakes of first time cab builders" thread would go far to meet the same end without stepping on any toes.  You could even use the cabs from Crap Mame as there are plenty of examples that could be more genuinely explored.  That doesn't even take a committee, just somebody with a good eye for what works in this hobby and a bit of free time. 

There will always be cabs of varying quality, I think that's a biblical truth or something.  That said, I'm glad to see the brakes pumped on this one and glad to have you over on the other thread trying to work out a different approach.        

[Howard_Casto]

Howard, you can't name your thread Crap MAME II:  Crap Harder and then expect people to think that you wanted to keep it positive.  I think a well written powerpoint PDF showing various CPs and cabs of questionable design systematically critiqued and then put up in a no nonsense "Common mistakes of first time cab builders" thread would go far to meet the same end without stepping on any toes.  You could even use the cabs from Crap Mame as there are plenty of examples that could be more genuinely explored.  That doesn't even take a committee, just somebody with a good eye for what works in this hobby and a bit of free time. 

There will always be cabs of varying quality, I think that's a biblical truth or something.  That said, I'm glad to see the brakes pumped on this one and glad to have you over on the other thread trying to work out a different approach.        

Sure I can!  Crap MAME II:  Crap Harder is a funny title.... it was intentionally titled that to emphasize just how light-hearted the whole thing was supposed to be.  If people didn't get that then I can only assume that they have a poor sense of humor. 

Yeah a well thought out pdf with bullet points.... sounds entertaining....I'm sure the newbies would really want to read that.   

No, it actually does take a committee, it gives weight to the content.  Otherwise it's just "some guy telling you what to do".

But I get that nobody else gets that, and THIS is why I stopped this discussion. 

[Well Fed Games]

If people didn't get that then I can only assume that they have a poor sense of humor. 

newbies

But I get that nobody else gets that, and THIS is why I stopped this discussion. 

 

[Ond]

have you read animal farm? The whole "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" is a phrase that demonstrates the corruption of the leadership and how they serve their own interest, not that of the people.  So the 99% would probably say that they are demonstrating against the pigs who have grown out of touch...  unless I am missing your point

So I guess what I was saying with that rather oblique reference (what's the point OND this topic is done?) is that if your going to have any sort of judging of peoples cab creations there's a risk that 'good design dogma' delivered in a negative way does not produce the claimed outcome of steering misguided newbies into good design principles.  To put it simply. some ain't as  thick skinned as others, one persons 'constructive' mocking is another's exit sign from the hobby.  But like I said from one idea, comes another.....  Some ideas sound good in theory to some folk, but before you know it you've got a police state.. K, I'll shutup now 

[abispac]

Howard, if you like CRAP, you should keep'it too yourself. Not everyone likes crap. 
But on a seirius note, being that negative can discourage alot of first timers on this hobby.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I'm a little surprised someones not selling overlay stickers to go on top of a tankstick, ie MK, SF, classics, generic ones.  Seems like there would be a market for it and it would get away from having that big red x looking not so hot and obvious.  i guess arcade art is too subjective.  The size and shape in and of itself is not intrinsically crappy.

[BadMouth]

I have not read any of this thread.  I just keep clicking on it hoping to see pictures, but there are none.

[Tighe]

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=2510879#post2510879

[ChadTower]

Thanks for digging this turd back up.  Seriously.   


Here's some fish you can microwave for lunch while you schedule a meeting for 5pm today.

[Dawgz Rule]

I have not read any of this thread.  I just keep clicking on it hoping to see pictures, but there are none.

Ditto.  The name sucked me right in.   

Such a thread would have to go down the crapper at some point.....by name alone.

Trashing CL and ebay cabs is all fine and dandy...probably well deserved.  On the flip side, reviews of cabs (voluntary or otherwise) will more than likely drive people away from the forums.  I know a good build when I see one and the forum has done an excellent job of showing the good, bad, and ugly without the need of a formal review process. 

As far as cost goes, it is relatively inexpensive to rebuild a control panel with existing components. 

Last but not least, what constitutes a good cab versus a bad cab is really subjective.  Sure, one thing is overall presentation but different design considerations are driven by different circumstances.  (admin buttons, dedicated mouse buttons, etc.)

[ChadTower]

Yep.  My MAME cab is ugly as crap and all "stuff in hand" materials but it plays really well.  That's all we cared about when we built tha tone.

[Vigo]

I haven't been able to even get Crapmame 1 working lately. Last time I tried, I think I had a 404 by page 9 and couldn't move on. Tried manually entering in the page number and nothing seemed to work until like page 23.

[Le Chuck]

This thread was the impotus of the UCAs.  Probably one of the most important threads I've been a part of during my stay her on Saint's site.  Without this there might not have been that. 

[rpgposer]

*Secretly worries that his cab will be the centerpiece of CrapMame II.

[yotsuya]

*Secretly worries that his cab will be the centerpiece of CrapMame II.

You mean hopes, right?

[Vigo]

When I make Urkelcade, I would be offended if it wasn't on crapmame II.

[yotsuya]

If you make Urkelcade, I will help print the artwork for free. I want to see this get done.