I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....

[Xiaou2]

Just for fun...


 

That's a bit of a straw man, considering Race Drivin is an expensive game cabinet and Doom can run on a 486 (or a number of crappy old cell phones, for that matter).

 Yet it was you who brought up the comparison in those games.

You could also ask people which they'd have at home, and the majority would likely say Doom, citing "my wife would kill me" or "I have no room for Race Drivin" as reasons.

To be completely honest, I'd probably go with Doom, too.  I'd LOVE to have a Race Drivin cab, but I don't have the floor space to dedicate to one game.  Or rather, I have other higher priorities for that floor space (kids room, garage space, etc).

 Assuming space or wife trouble wasnt an issue, a majority of people would prefer a RD.

I'm sure.  But if you're basing goodness on revenue it's hard to match the $100mil Doom 2 has made (ref Wikipedia).

 No.  Im saying, that if today, I went out and put a Real Race Drivin cabinet & a coin-op timer based pc that played Doom... both into a shop / arcade...etc..  that Race Drivin would kick its butt in profits every week.

I don't think this one is an argument you can win.  Forza or iRacing or even Gran Turismo has a more realistic driving model than Race Drivin, full stop.  That's not a value judgment on Race Drivin vs Forza, that's just a fact of the computing power of the time.  If you doubt my objectivity, please find someone with a modern sim and a steering wheel setup and try one before you judge.

 Well, I cant say that I have any real experience with Sims lately, so Im not sure.  However, RD computations could have very well been high power.  Remember, these games didnt run a bloated windown environment.. and were programmed in direct assembly, Afaik.  There may have also been mathbox shortcuts (pre-calculated equations).  RD also has a pretty sick board set.  I think theres like 3 to 5 large pcbs in the cab.  Its been a while since last I looked.

 Also, heres one for you...  One day I was doing the large hill jump, and I came down at a slight angle.  I believe only one tire hit at landing.. the front passenger side.  The car immediately, spun around, while bouncing several times in mid-air, from one tire to the next, in a slightly angled lean.  Eventually, the car actually fully landed, and I was still able to drive off!   You could tell that the suspension and tires were accounted for in such a situation.  They also calculate other things, such as when you climb or drop down hills, your engine struggles or car picks up speed. Road surface -vs- Grass, also effects the cars performance.

 I dont claim RD to compete with todays sims.. (especially visually)  but then again, I have doubts as to the level of feedback they provide with their FFB wheels.  A lot of sims only recently supported 900 degree wheels for example.  RD has had a full 6 turns, for ages.  It also has a FFB Motor thats about the size of washing machine motor.  And sadly, afaik, none of the sim games have crazy stunt courses like RD / HD.

 And yeah, I really loved some of the Burnout games.  They were the first racers to feel like Out-Run, where cars actually were allowed to wreck... rather than being held back by some invisible wall... or some impossible instructive shell.

[Donkbaca]

Forza 4 is the best driving game ever.  If you think otherwise you are either ignorant or lying to yourself

[opt2not]

Original 4" leaf-switch Wico's is the best joysticks for Robotron ever. If you think otherwise, you are either ignorant or lying to yourself

[Donkbaca]

Saying, "if you think otherwise, you are either ignorant or lying to yourself" Is easily the best way to end an argument ever.  If you disagree, you are either ignorant, or lying to yourself.

[CheffoJeffo]

They're 4" Wicos and the game is Robotron.

Facts are always the best way to end an argument.

[Malenko]

No.  Im saying, that if today, I went out and put a Real Race Drivin cabinet & a coin-op timer based pc that played Doom... both into a shop / arcade...etc..  that Race Drivin would kick its butt in profits every week.

Well, I cant say that I have any real experience with Sims lately, so Im not sure.  However, RD computations could have very well been high power.  Remember, these games didnt run a bloated windown environment.. and were programmed in direct assembly, Afaik.  There may have also been mathbox shortcuts (pre-calculated equations).  RD also has a pretty sick board set.  I think theres like 3 to 5 large pcbs in the cab.  Its been a while since last I looked.

Just for fun, I had to cut down your verbose reply.
Race Driving would not out profit DooM. How much would it cost you to get a big ole sit down dedicated race driving cab set up? How much would it cost you to get a computer running DooM? Do you know what profit is? It's revenue over expenses. exactly.
Just stop with this comparison.

Onto your second "point" , none of the games listed run on a "bloated windows environment" not even DooM.  As for all this Baller 1989 hardware you speak of, if you add all all the CPUs together including sound and GPU they clock in under 300 MHz ( http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=770 ) Its not even a bunch of custom ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- either, just standard 68010s, TMS3401Xs, and ADSP-210Xs. I mean yeah they got a lot of performance out of it but its still a pretty crappy game. When you're a kid it feels like you're driving a real car, because when you were a kid, you hadn't driven a real car.

I do hafta ask you though, why do you think 6 wheel rotations is more realistic then 900* of rotation? Do you know how many degrees of rotation a real car usually has?

[Gray_Area]

Xiaou, any chance of getting that summed up in a way that won't wear out my mouse scroll button?

Or just the scrolling of my eyeballs!

I also experience what Malenko speaks of. And laughing at how he speaks about it. Dude, you need to custom sig this:

"The more I read of Exouche the dumber I get."

And, in the middle of all this discussion, we're forgetting the most important thing: does Gray_Area like leaf switches yet?

HEY. Good catch there. I haven't had a chance to play original Wicos.

[Donkbaca]

You aren't missing out on much, apparently the only thing they are useful for is a 30 year old crappier version of Smash T.V.

[opt2not]

You aren't missing out on much, apparently the only thing they are useful for is a 30 year old crappier version of Smash T.V.

...and there goes any credibility you have as a gamer, out the window.

[Donkbaca]

Has anyone tried Smash TV with 4 inch Wico leaf sticks?

[Gray_Area]

The best racing game E-VER is getting in your car, and red-lining through the main streets and boulevards. The cops chasing you are just a bonus. Be a man.

Smash TV is great. It's a different game, though. Just like Black Widow is a different game than Robotron. But they're all related, and that's why they're great games.


Also, thinking back on that comment about having to destroy a Wico centering grommet because the inner ring and stick shaft were rusted together, I have a solution! :

Take the whole thing apart. Lift the shack+grommet out. Place upside-down on vice, with jaws apart slightly more than the shaft diameter but with plenty to restrain the inner ring. Hold down grommet base. Use hammer to pound downward on stick shaft. You might need to pre-lube it.....um, yeah.....but that thing should come loose.....oh my.....with relative ease.

[SammyWI]

Just for fun...


 

That's a bit of a straw man, considering Race Drivin is an expensive game cabinet and Doom can run on a 486 (or a number of crappy old cell phones, for that matter).

As a side note:  How do you manage to always remove the quote author's screen name from your quotes?  It makes your already annoying posts even more annoying.  And that's really quite a feat, even for you.

[opt2not]

Has anyone tried Smash TV with 4 inch Wico leaf sticks?

Yes, in an original cabinet and it plays just as great as Robotron. Total Carnage as well.

What's your point?

[Donkbaca]

Geez easy with the hostility.  Just saying if they are good for Smash TV, then there are 2 reasons to care about 4" Wico leaf sticks, as opposed to just one.

[Xiaou2]

I can understand why some people would see Smash TV as the better game.

  As a kid, I played Robotron like Once in the arcade.  I avoided it because to me, at that time in my life, it looked like crap compared to other games in the same time period.  I decided that maybe I was missing out on something, because I had discovered that some poor graphic games actually were very fun.  But Robotron gave me about 30 seconds of play... stomping me to bits.. and I was so underwhelmed, and ticked off at the beating.. that I never went back till an adult.

 Years later, Smash came out, and I loved it.  Funny, fun, and much better graphics than Robotron...  and I could tell it was a Robotron remake.   The problem with it?  It was a quarter muncher.  I really despise continue games... partly because they are so cheap with putting you in impossible to survive situations.. just to get more quarters out of you.

 Then, as an adult, I was arguing with a guy about Robotron -vs- Smash TV.  He INSISTED that Robotron was the superior game.  I was shocked... and really couldnt understand it...  So I hunted down an original machine, and began pumping quarters into it.

 After about 10-15 games, I started to get the ability to survive through several levels... and started to get the compulsion, but still not convinced.  After 20-30 games, I was finally getting past level 9... a barrier that seemed impossible at first.  After maybe 10 to 20 more games, I was getting good... and had marathon streaks up to levels over 20.  Somewhere around this point, I became a true Believer.  I was also seriously addicted.  I spend about 5 hrs playing Robtron (only) that day... only really stopping, because the place was closing up for the night!

 Robotron kicks Smashes butt in every way that matters most.  The game is hard, but its also relatively fair... unlike Smash.  Every Nth level in Robotron, you have a chance to get extra men on the Brain stages.  Smash needs more quarters for extra men.  Smash is relatively Slow compared to Robotron.  Robotron needs lightning quick reactions... at every moment of play.  It makes gets your adrenalin pumping, and your heart racing. Smash is much more leisurely... or all the sudden it gets impossibly cheap... so it just ticks you off.  Smash often puts you in an empty room, Robotron Always puts you in the middle of robot-hell, many times with only a few pixels between life and death.

 Smash TV    is Elevator Music.
 Robotron     is Heavy Metal.

 Sadly, I have no access to an original machine.  The guy decided to get a multi-willaims cabinet... which had some crappy Happ Comps on it.  I tried it a few times, and couldnt do Squat with it.. due to the lack of control that the original wico 8ways gave.  I walked away in disgust.

 I learned the beauty of well adjusted Wico leaf sticks.  Not just for Robotron.. but for many classics. Robotron just sticks out in the argument... because its one of the games that is so intense, and needing those sticks to merely survive.  Other less intense games can play OK with other sticks.. but they still will at minimum, Feel better, with leaf sticks.

[Malenko]

Once people accept that Xiaou2 is just bat ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- crazy and read his posts in a stereotypical crazy person voice, its much more entertaining.

[DaveMMR]

Once people accept that Xiaou2 is just bat ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- crazy and read his posts in a stereotypical crazy person voice, its much more entertaining.

Heh, I imagine him throwing cats around while I read them.

[Malenko]

Once people accept that Xiaou2 is just bat ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- crazy and read his posts in a stereotypical crazy person voice, its much more entertaining.

Heh, I imagine him throwing cats around while I read them.

and now I do too.

[Donkbaca]

I am just wondering, if so much care and engineering and thought was put into having 4" sticks for Robotron, why were they not used for more games?

[Gray_Area]

Smash needs more quarters for extra men. 

Actually, Smash TV sometimes awards you the opportunity to pick up extra men. Go get 'em, boi!

[1500points]

wow, this thread was an extensive geekfest.  Interesting jaunt through perceived video game history.

If the thread is about playability with robotron-  I learned on microswitch bats, spent some time with the xbox 360 joysticks, then real wico leafs, and finally put some wico 360 opticals in a mame setup.

All said and done, the wico leafs would help a learning player do better. but an accomplished player would be able to get the same score on all models of joystick as it is more about movement strategy and technique, eh.  My personal preference when you get into the "zone" is the leafs because it seems like the pressure of the leafs becomes hyper aware in your hands. kinda surreal twilight zone effect as the gameplay seems slower in your brain.

Ever tried playing Joust with microswitch buttons at the higher levels? extremely hard to beat the shadow lords.  but a leaf gives a nice performance edge that puts the player at the advantage.

[CheffoJeffo]

All said and done, the wico leafs would help a learning player do better. but an accomplished player would be able to get the same score on all models of joystick as it is more about movement strategy and technique, eh.  My personal preference when you get into the "zone" is the leafs because it seems like the pressure of the leafs becomes hyper aware in your hands. kinda surreal twilight zone effect as the gameplay seems slower in your brain.

Ever tried playing Joust with microswitch buttons at the higher levels? extremely hard to beat the shadow lords.  but a leaf gives a nice performance edge that puts the player at the advantage.

Made me think of double-flap button presses that seem to work so much better on leafs than micros ... but that could just be in my mind.

[Gray_Area]

Made me think of double-flap button presses that seem to work so much better on leafs than micros ... but that could just be in my mind.

I can see this. The former, that is. The problem I find is the leafs possibly being fluttery so as not to have consistent actuation. I noticed this recently on a restored, but not NOS-buttoned, Track and Field.

I'm wondering about the Wico opticals. I have P360s, and like them, but the spring is a little tough at times.

[opt2not]

Anyone know a good source for nos leaf-switches?

Bob Roberts has some, but they're his nylon replicas that are going for $4 a switch! Apparently they should last longer, but I don't know about spending that much for switches.

[1500points]

local413 on klov seems to be wico central. i've not purchased from him before but he seems legit.
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=233822

regarding the leaf flutter. that's just a matter of finetuning the adjustment like you would on a pinball machine flipper assembly.

regarding 360s. i have them right here on my laptop mame setup. they are smooth but for long games the spring tension bugs me. wish it could be loosened up a bit.

2 nights ago I turned my real machine back to level 10 to help advance my focus on the waves up to 20 (5man tournament prep). forgot how fun that is. what a great overall game.

[armi0024]

Sorry I burned out half way through the thread
Opt: Don't Randy's leafs fit some old set ups with some minor adjustments?  Otherwise there aren't many options, supposedly Bob's supplier dried up

In regards to the Wolfeel sticks, those were just the shafts and balls, we did the balls to get them as a true 1.5".  He is doing a second run, and there will be hollow shafts in the future.  We had a bad batch of balls come in and had to do a second run.  Wolfeel has been beating down my door for that second batch.

My personal opinion is that the games were made to be enjoyed, so if you like playing Pacman with an Assault stick, fine with me.  I definitely like using different controls for different games and it takes a while to get the feel of what is out there and what can be done.  It's almost like a much more simplified version of what wine to have with dinner.  Normally you put reds with meat, but hey, maybe you love steak with Chardonnay.  Sometimes just as much fun to try out a new control on an old game as it is to try out a new game on an old control.  And maybe I think the best thing with steak is a milkshake

I wish more people hated using Wico's... that would leave more for me, I need a 6-8 of them for the current batch of Williams games I am playing.

[danny_galaga]

I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

The "microswitch" has been commercially available since 1937.  I guess 40 years wasn't long enough for the arcade manufacturers to catch wind of it 

Get your facts straight son.

Max Wiezer said "aint no crappy ass microswitches in my products".  Hence there were no microswitches.


Also the patent probably would have put a damper on profits.

 

Have I missed something? What's patents got to do with anything? You put a microswitch in your product, you do just that. Price of the patent is built into the product. Buying the switch by the thousand means you are paying pennies per switch. Might even be cheaper than making leaf switches.

[RandyT]

Have I missed something? What's patents got to do with anything? You put a microswitch in your product, you do just that. Price of the patent is built into the product. Buying the switch by the thousand means you are paying pennies per switch. Might even be cheaper than making leaf switches.

IANAL, but I have had enough patent experience to understand the principles.  You can't patent the switch, but you can patent the use of it in another product.  Of course, there has to be some unique use that would not be "obvious to one skilled in the art", so inventing a joystick which uses it in a unique enough way to conform to this standard would be difficult, and that is putting it mildly.  Also, it does not invalidate the original switch patent, so one couldn't just make their own identical microswitch as part of a joystick assembly, and call it a new item.  Purchasing the patented item for use in an assembly would usually be enough, unless the same company also had a significantly similar joystick patent using those switches.

Also, we buy switches by the many thousands and they don't get that inexpensive in quantity.  Most switches will use at least some precious metals, and that tends to limit the discounts quite a bit.  They would have also, at that time, been paying for a lot of the R&D and factory equipment, so I'm sure they weren't cheap.  That cost aspect has improved considerably nowadays.

RandyT

[danny_galaga]

Have I missed something? What's patents got to do with anything? You put a microswitch in your product, you do just that. Price of the patent is built into the product. Buying the switch by the thousand means you are paying pennies per switch. Might even be cheaper than making leaf switches.

IANAL, but I have had enough patent experience to understand the principles.  You can't patent the switch, but you can patent the use of it in another product.  Of course, there has to be some unique use that would not be "obvious to one skilled in the art", so inventing a joystick which uses it in a unique enough way to conform to this standard would be difficult, and that is putting it mildly.  Also, it does not invalidate the original switch patent, so one couldn't just make their own identical microswitch as part of a joystick assembly, and call it a new item.  Purchasing the patented item for use in an assembly would usually be enough, unless the same company also had a significantly similar joystick patent using those switches.

Also, we buy switches by the many thousands and they don't get that inexpensive in quantity.  Most switches will use at least some precious metals, and that tends to limit the discounts quite a bit.  They would have also, at that time, been paying for a lot of the R&D and factory equipment, so I'm sure they weren't cheap.  That cost aspect has improved considerably nowadays.

RandyT

So in other words, just buying the microswitch to put in your joystick is usually enough, much like I said 

[RandyT]

So in other words, just buying the microswitch to put in your joystick is usually enough, much like I said 

Yes, so long as there wasn't another patented, substantially identical stick using those switches.  As the art was relatively new at the time, there very probably was.  Also, your cost estimation was off by quite a bit.  You can still find microswitches which cost many dollars each, and I suspect these were the norm in those days.  The inexpensive ones are a relatively new development, thanks to off-shore mass production and increased competition.

Nowadays, the issues affecting cost and patentability are largely moot, but we aren't talking about today's business environment.

[Gray_Area]

local413 on klov seems to be wico central. i've not purchased from him before but he seems legit.
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=233822

regarding the leaf flutter. that's just a matter of finetuning the adjustment like you would on a pinball machine flipper assembly.

regarding 360s. i have them right here on my laptop mame setup. they are smooth but for long games the spring tension bugs me. wish it could be loosened up a bit.

Yeah, that can be an issue. Still, I don't as often loose my sense of directionality within the range of motion of the stick as I do with leafs. So, it's official: I played that Robotron again the other night, and while I liked the lightness of the stick, the directions were increasingly hard to find, partly because of the 'fluffiness' of the mechanics. I like more forceful restriction. PLUS, I was holding the tops by two fingers and thumb, with my other fingers held away, because I was leary of getting my pinky jammed between the shaft and the ---goshdarn--- hole (because of the under-mounted dust washer). LAME.

[1500points]

Last fall I was at an arcade party and Todd Rodgers was there too (he's one of the old school legends from Florida who is outstanding at Robotron).

He had a really unusual technique with the sticks. He held his hands palm up then pulled the knob this way or that with his fingers.
oddest dang thing to watch, but he smoked everyone at robotron on the 19-1 board which is blazing fast.

[Xiaou2]

I always assumed that anyone who played Robotron, grabbed the sticks from the top, wrapping the fingers around the balltops.

 Thats probably the most effective position... as it gives you direct linkage and superior leverage, equally, in any direction.

 As for getting Lost with leafs.. the might apply to badly adjusted leafs, the chinese knock-off repros, metal fatigue (see last paragraph), or finally... the kind of game that doesnt use leafs. 

 Robotron does not really require exacting movements.  Generally, you are always rolling the stick along the outside edges, (walking/firing) in a very continuous motion. 

 Its not like a fighting game... where you need to quickly tap back and forwards several times a second, and one tiny slip up in a direction, causes a move to fail.  Robotron does however had a need for a much faster reactionary time, on a regular basis.  Theres no blocking.  It requires split second reaction times, at all times.  Leafs give that advantage, especially when properly adjusted.

 Theres less mechanical loss, and the round restriction keeps the movement smooth and fast.  The rubber grommet keeps the stick light and easy to move, without the fatiguing resistance of a typical spring stick. 


 Finally, these leafs are getting older.  Metal springs do fatigue... and lose a lot of their springy qualities.  Its quite possible that the reason some Leafs get out of whack more often than they should... or that you are having a very hard time with the controls... is due to this aged metal fatigue.

 Sadly, nothing lasts forever.  Not even Micros.

[boardjunkie]

The only reason the taller sticks were used in Robotron was the way they were mounted under the wooden control panel. The standard Wicos would work just the same, but the ball top would have been too close to the panel leaving little room for yer fingers. Had the panel been made of metal, the std ones would yield the same result. Thats all there is too it.

Wood:
http://www.coinop.org/Image.aspx?g=bda7bcc6-c822-45f3-8ff0-17ab02edbabd

Metal:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3546725491_54bb003008.jpg


Xiaou2 makes valid points on how games were developed in the "old days". Games were very limited hardware wise (also price point came into play...high performance cost more money) so gameplay *had* to be solid or else players wouldn't bother with it. Back in the early 80s, video games were *everywhere*. If you didn't like the ones in front of you, chances are you just walked over to the next building to see what was there.

If a game sucked, nobody played it. Then it was quickly replaced with something else. The big hits were big hits for a reason. Now with MAME we can go back in time and witness all the turds that came and went without making a dent in the market. And there's a *ton* of them....

Does anyone here have an amusements supply catalog from say 82 or 83? That would be a good reference as far as what was industry standard back then. And there wasn't much....Wico leaf sticks were king and remained so into the late 80s.

[CheffoJeffo]

The only reason the taller sticks were used in Robotron was the way they were mounted under the wooden control panel. The standard Wicos would work just the same, but the ball top would have been too close to the panel leaving little room for yer fingers. Had the panel been made of metal, the std ones would yield the same result. Thats all there is too it.

I tend to disagree, even though your explanation would appear to make sense, since Wicos were regularly mounted in wood panels with 3.5" shafts.

[boardjunkie]

Depends on how its done. If you rout a channel in the wood for the stick to drop into from the top, then the reg ones would be fine. Seldom done. And its  PITA because you have to remove the switches to get it to drop thru, then put metal over the top of the wood.

There's nothing magical about the tall shaft sticks. They were made for mfgr's who used wooden control panels. Granted the fulcrum point changes just a bit, but don't try to tell me it was a designed in "feature". It was just out of necessity.

Micro switch sticks (most of them) are universal because they provide spacers and e-clip notches to deal with just about any thickness panel.

[RandyT]

This isn't totally factual.  Longer shafts on stick assemblies make for a longer throw of the stick for the user, while keeping everything below the panel the same.  What is much more likely is that the game was too "twitchy" with the shorter shafts, and rather than redesign the entire base to accommodate the game, they simply produced a longer shaft for the same base.  Much less expensive approach than re-designing and re-tooling the stick, and achieves the same result.

RandyT

[boardjunkie]

I don't buy that. You can adjust the switches for any sensitivity you want.

Williams used wooden panels thus they needed the extra length for clearance.

[CheffoJeffo]

Depends on how its done. If you rout a channel in the wood for the stick to drop into from the top, then the reg ones would be fine. Seldom done. And its  PITA because you have to remove the switches to get it to drop thru, then put metal over the top of the wood.

There's nothing magical about the tall shaft sticks. They were made for mfgr's who used wooden control panels. Granted the fulcrum point changes just a bit, but don't try to tell me it was a designed in "feature".

My point is that tons of games with wood panels (without routing) used Wico sticks with 3.5" shafts, where I can only think of 2 games that used a 4" shaft.

feel free to correct me if I have made any factual errors.

[RandyT]

I don't buy that. You can adjust the switches for any sensitivity you want.

Williams used wooden panels thus they needed the extra length for clearance.

...even though your explanation would appear to make sense, since Wicos were regularly mounted in wood panels with 3.5" shafts.

You can't adjust them to the same extent without affecting the long term durability and function of the switch, and from a manufacturing standpoint, it takes more time and effort to do this than simply using the correct part to achieve the desired goal.

RandyT