Arcade Collecting > Pinball

Digital Pinball Disasters

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Dazz:
 :angry:

Perhaps if people were buying digital tables then we would need picture perfect re-creations.  However, the people that are re-drawing playfields don't make a single dime from doing it.  They spend their own time, many many hours, re-tracing playfields from extremely low-rez images. Odds are the image that the re-trace is being done from wasn't a good source to begin with, but the artist did the best they could based on the source images they had access to at the time.  These images are 100% better than what has been used on digital re-creations in the past and I'm glad to have people that are willing to re-create these, for free, for our enjoyment.  The VP developers, again non-paid, open source programmers are doing the best they can as well.  While the software isn't perfect; we do have a good group of people that is willing to spend their own time to further development.  I, for one, am very glad that we have such people out there still that are willing to do this for little to nothing in return.  Sure if I was paying for the software/tables then I would expect MUCH MUCH more out of it, but I'm not paying for anything and right now I'm happy with the direction that things are moving.

Look Xiaou2 It's obvious that you don't like digital pinball machines nor the direction that the future is taking it.  There is no need to go toe to toe with you on this.  I'm not trying to get you to change your mind about digital pins.  I'm just stating that digital pins are here and they probably will be around much longer than you hope they will be.  Digital pins are valid suggestions for anyone looking to scratch that itch for a pinball. 

I love real machines and never would bash or scrutinize a real machine like you do when it comes to digital.  I just don't have room, nor the money, to have more than 1 machine.  No single pin has ever grabbed my attention to be worth owning for any serious amount of time.  If I had transportation and money for buying/trading pins then I would, but I don't.  I had to settle on a digital machine for my "poor-mans arcade".  While the digital table isn't perfect, it does a really good job to scratch the pinball itch. 

With that being said; even having a digital pin does not keep me from playing a real table whenever I come across one, no matter what pin it is.  I just dropped $20 between 2 real machines on Friday night that I had never played before.  I've played these two tables hundreds of times on my digital pin, but it was really nice being able to play the real machines when I come across them.  It is very rare to see machines out in the wild around here, except during the pinball festival, so it's always a privilege to get to play when I come across one.  Because I have played these tables digitally; I already knew the rule sets of both tables and I knew how to make the necessary shots.  Oddly enough the digital re-creations played fairly close to the real machines.  I picked up enough skill from playing the digital re-creations to take the high-score on both machines.

Digital tables are picking up steam weather you like it or not.  We are seeing a large influx of people building new cabinets and many people in the planning stages being announced on a daily basis.  With software companies like Zenpinball looking into creating multiple screen tables digital pinball tables will be around for the foreseeable future.  I can easily see Zenpinball converting some of their original tables to multi-screen PC tables and being able to pull a profit.  It's really sad that we can't say the same for mechanical builders such as Stern or the new upstart Jersey Jack.  While I would love to see both companies flourish and bring back the feel of pinball like we got in the 80's and 90's; it's not going to happen.  These companies are going to have to change with the times if they want to succeed.  The new pins that are being put out now days don't really have that wow factor that pins of the past did to grab attention.  Perhaps Stern should start thinking about a more digital supplement to their dwindling mechanical business.  I think they could be very successful if they do choose to move towards a digital solution.  Take some of their licenses, and artists and pair them up with a software house to build a nice digital engine and release more mass affordable PC based machines.

Sure they could charge $4,000 initially for a digital table and even more and more to have better features, faster PC, better screens, etc. added.  Toss in a license for the table and for software/engine updates.  Software tables would be much cheaper to produce, easier to maintain and right now they do have that wow factor that is missing from today's tables.  For something to be successful in today's market you have to have something that stands out to the younger crowds. 

I bet if you took a nice looking digital pin, with flashing lights, solenoids, and nice spec'd PC and set it side by side with the top grossing mechanical pinball of all time in a location like Dave & Busters with the top grossing, mint conditioned, mechanical pinball of all time... the digital would have more playtime than the mechanical.

I also bet that within the next 5 years we will start seeing more and more digital pins being released commercially.  I doubt that we'll see re-creations of old machines due to licensing issues, but we'll see software companies such as Zenpinball join the realm.  Just check out some of the tables that Zenpinball.com has to offer, their tables and physics engine would lend it's self to a multi screen digital pin with little effort.  I'd gladly pay good money to have their tables playable on a multi-screen, pinball table form.

I think that the movement that we are seeing with digital pins now is only the beginning.

drventure:
+1 on Dazz's comments. Not anything that's even worth arguing about in the slightest. The digital pins are awesome. Some of the builds I've seen around here are fantastic, and the tables.... Well, like Dash said, it's people doing these scans on their own time, for FREE. and usually with one purpose in mind, to recreated a classic table for playability, NOT to strictly preserve some notion of artistic integrity (which, BTW, can vary +dramatically+ from one person to the next).

I say, everyone in the vpin arena is doing a +great+ job, and I thank you all for it!

pinballwizard79:
I like all the stuff Xiaou2 hates... such as VisualPinball, LCD monitors, well made frankenpanels, happiness & etc.

Just post random videos to derail his threads & rants until he stops

ChadTower:

--- Quote from: Dazz on February 27, 2011, 06:41:53 pm ---I don't know why people even listen to you around here.

--- End quote ---


Hey now you know what happens when people assume...

studmuff:
I think there is only one reasonable thing you can do.  You need to pick a machine and recreate it in VP or FP.  Since you already know everything there is to know about pinball, pinball restoration and visual pinball.  I could get you in touch with some of the VP table authors but you already have the tools, so get going and make one.  Some of the authors can do a table in about 2-3 weeks time.  With your incredible knowledge base, you should be able to get it done in half that time.  Then again you always strive for perfection so 2-3 weeks should be fine.  Please let us know which table you are doing.  I can't wait to see the most perfect representation of a digital table by you.  Finally, someone will do it.  Please pick one of the three pins you own to make it easier on yourself.  I myself own 14 machines so if you are looking for a specific title I can take pictures for you.  This is going to be awesome.  Xiaou2 = Michaelangelo



--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on February 28, 2011, 12:32:44 am ---Dazz, As for pin and video experience, I not only own 3 pins, and 3 vids...  Ive Managed a busy arcade with over 42 games at any moment in rotation.   Usually with at least 2 to 3 pins at one location.

 Ive also fixed/restored/modded  other peoples pins/arcade machines for side cash.

 Being an Arcade manager in a Namco owned mall store, means tearing things down to pieces to get them to work properly.   I was there about 45-50 hrs a week, for 3 yrs before the store faded out.

 I attend out of state shows and auctions at least once a year.   Allentown almost always... other shows and auctions at random.  Ive seen and played both the Ultra Pin, as well as custom built digital pins at these shows and auctions.  I also have experience with them on my own PC.

 I belong to a pinball club, which host regular comps and get togethers, with basements filled with top of the line pins, in pristine upkept condition.

 Ive restored an Ice Cold Beer game, rebuilding the entire slide bar assembly (using pretty brass tube), new rubber pulley lines mod,  buffed metal parts to mirror finish, and touched about 1/5th of the artwork that had flaked off the machines front glass - to the point where people couldnt tell that it was ever touched.   Yes, my color matching skills are pretty damn solid.  Sold the machine at a show for about $750.  (they usually go for $300-$400 top)

 I have good artistic ability, color matching skill, pencil and paint skill, woodworking ability, metal work, PC repair and building, PC apps such as photoshop, and mechanical design ability.

 Ive been into emulation and video pinball, almost since their very inception.

 Ive contributed to mame, as well as many other projects.

 Im no master of any one thing.. but I have a deep understanding and broad range of skills.
Which includes art, photoshop, color, shading, touchups, and much more. 

 So, yeah, I have a lot more understanding of what a Mess the current digital pins are today.

 In fact, long ago when virtual pinball started.. I had every updated table and files.  But it didnt take long before I gave up playing them.  They kept changing the system, so tables frequently would error out and cease to work.  There were a billion versions of tables to try to maintain.. and all had various artistic issues, as well as glitches, and other issues like no analog, and poor perspective, ohh and missing functions... so certain games couldnt even be built period.

 Fast forward to recently, when tables are getting a lot more attention... and I re-downloaded a monster pack of files / tables.  As well have been browsing the VP forums.

 But, sadly, even with all the engine enhancements that make producing a good pin possible now...
you have people who have no artistic clue how to put together things properly... and so every table looks like Butt.   And again, because of this... multiple versions of the same tables... all highly flawed as usual.

 
 Whats amazing, is that you claim Im blind... when you cant even tell the difference between a real photographed insert.. and a pile of crap simulation of one, made by some idiot who thinks a few light color alterations equates to good looking inserts.   This is the most BASIC of things that can make a pin look good... and they cant even get that right!

 What is being produced is Crap.  But why is that?  Im pretty sure its because of BLIND people like yourself, who dont understand art, light, shadow, 3d, photoshop, vector art, touch ups, etc.

 You promote Supreme Ignorance, and Revel in it.

 And Honestly, I could Out-build you on a digital pin any day of the week.
I wont however, because:

 A) There Analog Patch they are Trying to install is not even close to correct.
(does not appear to track acceleration well.  Only relative position.  Its also doubtful they allow for full use of an analog axis.  Instead, the one guy is hacking a joypad, using only half an axis, which equates to super low resolution.  Ohh, and even worse res, cause its direct drive and not geared)

 B) The tables look like Butt.

 C) Id rather spend the money on another Real pin.  And merely build a pin-controller ""IF""
they ever get their crap together.

 Take the time to Actually review the pictures you posted so eagerly for me / us all too see...
and then take the time to go over my comments and see match them to the tables.   If you cant follow it.. then ask a few lifetime artists (Real artists who can draw and shade with a pencil and ink... not photoshop wannabees)  whats up.  They will tell you the same exact things, when comparing a real pin to the crappy output that exists today.

 Making a good digital pin is possible, but not with people who dont have a damn clue.
Thats like trying to reproduce an F1 race car, with a bunch of Dance Instructors, who havnt the foggiest clue about mechanics... let alone could run a machine shop to fabricate things.

 I may be an Elitist / Perfectionist... AND I may be a *badwords*, BUT, I am right.
Anyone with a clue, will let you know it.  But obviously, you dont know anyone with a clue, and
wont listen if you did.


--- End quote ---

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