Astounding, the fervor for an Asteroids button layout

[TOK]

Xiaou, does it hurt when you talk out of both sides of your mouth ?

You get upset that people mock others. Then you mock not only those people, but their friends.

Just STFU already.

He was born as a baby bird, but worked out, studied hard, watched Bruce Lee movies and can now punch you to death right through the internet! Beware!

[leapinlew]

But it is dumb to be offended and offensive over something that you dont even own or use.

And yet you continue to be offensive.

One of the reasons I keep my controls simple is because I like to entertain. When 30-40 people are over, I don't want to spend all my time explaining the game 30 or 40 different times and I don't want to have an orientation before a party. I also prefer the aesthetics of a clean control panel. Lastly, I have the space and resources to have multiple cabinets. I don't really care what anyone else does with their machines. This is just my opinion and this is a thread about opinions. You can voice your opinion, but you're overly offensive with it.

I know enough to walk up to a frankenpanel and use the flightstick that is restricted properly to play Tron, but how many people do you think do?

[Donkbaca]

+1mil leapinlew. We are both members if the same MAME philosophy

[ChadTower]

Xiaou, does it hurt when you talk out of both sides of your mouth ?

That's not his mouth.

I'm not that good at the game, for sure.  It should be noted I own an Asteroids Deluxe and a Space Duel.  I've put my time in on them.  I just don't like the layout.  I don't play any game for two hours in a row - life happens mostly outside of my basement.  I don't have mastery of classic gaming as a life goal. 

I don't understand the bitterness about criticism of an arcade control layout on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.  That's what we do here.

[leapinlew]

I'm not that good at the game, for sure.  It should be noted I own an Asteroids Deluxe and a Space Duel.  I've put my time in on them.  I just don't like the layout.  I don't play any game for two hours in a row - life happens mostly outside of my basement.  I don't have mastery of classic gaming as a life goal. 

I don't understand the bitterness about criticism of an arcade control layout on the Build Your Own Arcade Controls forum.  That's what we do here.

Instead of saying things like this Chad, I would prefer you continue saying things that I can strongly disagree with. 

[ErikRuud]

Its just dumb to try to play everything on one machine.

No, it shows no lack of intelligence.  Its called Opinion. 

That is really funny coming from you.  You are always criticizing other peoples opinion if they don't match yours.

And the merry Nazi party that groups together here is just beyond belief.  Amazing level of hypocrisy.

This is not funny at all.  I am so tired of seeing you label people with that when they disagree with you.

[Donkbaca]

The point is to strongly disagree with someone, and then tell the person that disagrees with you that they shouldn't disagree, or that this isn't the place for disagreement.

[leapinlew]

The point is to strongly disagree with someone, and then tell the person that disagrees with you that they shouldn't disagree, or that this isn't the place for disagreement.

Donkbaca - you are so wrong and such a doody head.

[ChadTower]

I thought the point was to tell the person who disagrees that it is obviously because they don't understand the issue.  If only they understood they would agree.  They are wrong because they don't get it.

[saint]

Mean people suck.

[ErikRuud]

Mean people suck.

I agree.   

[ChadTower]

Mean people design button layouts like Asteroids.

[Donkbaca]

I totally disagree, you people just don't understand mean people, and if you disagree with me, then obviously you don't understand that this isn't the place for disagreement.  I couldn't disagree with all of you more than I already do.  Excuse the typos, bUt my Handz is shaking from much anger coarsing through them over my disagreement. 

If you disagree with me that you don't understand mean people then obviously you don't understand, that I understand that you don't understand what is going on.  Please don't post your disagreements here, we aren't here to disagree.  Any of your disagreements about us not agreeing that we don't agree is just more proof that you don't know what is going on.


the end

[yotsuya]

I remember once I was reading a forum post on an 80s TV cartoon. Two guys got into over something stupid and obscure like the color of the main characters eyes in one scene to the next. It escalated, until one guy told the other, and I quote "I will pound you into the very depths of Hell with my fists!"

Gotta love Internet muscles.

[RandyT]

Back on topic...

My view on this is; if it's one of your all-time favorites, you have the space, and you can do it without compromising the functionality of the panel, then why not?  While the panel being shown may not stand up to the rigors of a minimalist design philosophy, I'd say that the way the layout was included was far less offensive than it obviously could have been.  There's something to be said for duplicating the feel of the actual layout, with accurate button spacing, etc.  I have experimented with mapping Asteroids controls to existing "fighter" style layouts, and while it definitely works, it's not the same.

[ChadTower]

"I will pound you into the very depths of Hell with my fists!"

That will only work because the shield button is placed too stupidly to use in time.

[Donkbaca]

After much testing, it was purposely put in a stupid place to make the game harder by the game devs...duh

[ChadTower]

After much testing, it was purposely put in a stupid place to make the game harder by the game devs...duh

After much use, I would like to pound them into the very depths of hell with my thumbs...duh

[opt2not]

I might be in the minority here, but I kinda like the Asteroids button layout, I wouldn't want to play asteroids any differently.
Though looking at this guy's layout, it looks like his spacing is just a bit too wide no?

I dunno about you guys, but I've found the most comfortable way of playing Asteroids is to have your left hand's Middle and Index fingers controlling the Steering, and Thumb hovering over shield/hyperspace.  Then the right hand can concentrate on rapid shooting and thrust -- but this guy's layout makes it hard to have your thumb hovering over the shield/hyperspace button. Perhaps he's got larger hands, or really long thumbs?

Anyways, I give him kudos for having a dedicated asteroids layout in that CP. He must like the game that much. I mean, is there any other use for an Asteroids layout other than perhaps Track and Field? But, there are other things on his CP that should get more attention than this -- like his dual spinners on the right, or the obscurely placed triple buttons above the P1 side. Or that grey thing hanging off the front edge of the CP that looks like an ashtray...what is that thing?

[Donkbaca]

READ THE THREAD!!!!

We have already covered that the dual spinners are for an etch a sketch emulator.

The obscure buttons on the 1p side are obviously for using the joystick and games that have 3 buttons.  Why not use the top three buttons?  To that I only say, why have an Asteroids layout?  Its all about (semi) authenticity!!!!

The grey thing is probably for karaoke, don't know exactly how you use it for karaoke, but that's what my instincts are telling me.  And if you disagree with me, well, lets not get into that.

Doesn't make sense to have an ashtray, the cigarettes would just be put out on the CP so that you would have cigarette burns, to make the CP more authentic

[opt2not]

Doh! Yeah, sometimes when a thread gets too convoluted with drama I tend to gloss over things. Missed the couple messages regarding the spinners. Whoops!

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou, does it hurt when you talk out of both sides of your mouth ?

You get upset that people mock others. Then you mock not only those people, but their friends.

 Theres a difference between a person who starts being insulting, and who retaliates with an insulting retort.   While sure, its true that two wrongs dont make a right..  its also true that the person who instigates things should be weighed with 10x the responsibility.

 For every action, there is consequence of that reaction.  If someone comes along and kicks a sand into some little kids face, you can bet Id be the first one scene to make the person eat that sand as a result.

 I have no problem with Opinion.  I do have a problem with abusive attitudes and Elitist Nazi "MOB" mentality.  Ohh, yeah, I also have a problem with slimeball button pushers like yourself.


 While I do not always agree of like certain aspects of a persons cabinet / layout, I dont make it a point to bash and slam them over their decision.  The exception being companies creation, such as Sterns horrendous corner-cutting Pins.  That to me is just too irresponsible to the hobby Ive come to love.

 If they dont like cluttered controls... and dont mind compromises in games playability... that doesnt bother me.  Im not playing it.  Yet you so called Elitists think that your Opinion is the gospel of the control building code.  That if you deviate from certain rules... that you should be tied to a tree and stoned by the Mob.

 Opinion isnt Fact.  And the Facts are Quite clear, your very posts are set to ridicule, shame, put down / undermine others.... merely for your own amusement, as well as to try to force people to be exactly like your little Mob cult.

 Very childish and Very Pathetic.

Just STFU already.

 Im sure that kind of talk works on your poor wife... but not me.

[RandyT]

I might be in the minority here, but I kinda like the Asteroids button layout, I wouldn't want to play asteroids any differently.
Though looking at this guy's layout, it looks like his spacing is just a bit too wide no?

Yes, it's too wide.  Still better than the much wider separation if one needed to use the normal player buttons.

[Xiaou2]

I don't play any game for two hours in a row

 Well, all I can say is that when I first bought my AD, I litterally couldnt stop playing it for around 2hs.   Same with my Spy Hunter.

 Back in the arcade days, I was too young to really be any good at either of those games, and died very quickly.   And while Mame has been around for some time, Ive for the most part only played with a joypad and keyboard... so there was little dedicated effort, and poor control to fuel skill progression.

 The Spy Hunter was first, and maybe about the 2nd day or so, I learned to be able to bump switchblade cars with the rear of my car without getting killed.  Id never seen anyone do this before, and it was only because of the constant play and proper controls that got me to that level of skill to discover and master that tech.

 Asteriods Deluxe, while played lightly in mame.. again never really pushed too hard... and without leaf-switch buttons, it does detract from faster firing control, as well as the game looking dreadfully awful on a non-vector monitor.
 
 AD took me a lot longer to get good at.  The shield button is really tough to remember to hit, let alone reach it in time.  However, after a few good long plays alone, and some 2player friend sessions... I was able to successfully Use the Shield, maybe 80% more often than I started out.  Its definitely a skill thats acquired with practice.   

 Im very glad I didnt hack the panel up early on, as I was seriously considering it to begin with.   One thing that seems to happen every now and then is that you forget which buttons are which.  With Shield being too easy to press, I realized it would have gotten pressed too many times on accident while hunting for a button.  It also would have made the game easier... which I realized that I didnt want. 

 The frantic scramble for the Shield is probably half the fun in that game.   It tests your reflexes, gets your adrenalin rushing.  If you hit it, you feel like you saved the planet. If you miss it, you laugh and cry at the same time... noteing how you Almost got it in time.

I have experimented with mapping Asteroids controls to existing "fighter" style layouts, and while it definitely works, it's not the same.

 + 1000 Pts

[Donkbaca]

Soooooo... Let me get this straight, you like this layout because you rock at spyhunter and think it's good to dedicate space on a control panel even though you never played the game in mame....

[ChadTower]

If you miss it, you laugh and cry at the same time... noteing how you Almost got it in time.

I have three AD control panels... all three are bent in the middle.  It looks more like people start swearing and pounding their fists on the game.

[Xiaou2]

Soooooo... Let me get this straight, you like this layout because you rock at spyhunter and think it's good to dedicate space on a control panel even though you never played the game in mame....

 In both examples, SH & AD, I didnt play them that much in mame because of not having the correct controls + cabinet.  Trying to run a Quarter mile race in Flip-Flops wont work very well, and is pretty much pointless... so that runner isnt even going to try very hard, let alone try multiple times... and of course, knowing how much better he would do in good running shoes, he gets discouraged and has pretty much no enjoyment in the experience.

 Spy Hunter is a brutally hard game even with the correct controls.  But even with a PC racing wheel set, you cant play it well because there is No arcade shifter support.  The lack of the ease of a lever shifter ruins the feel of the game, and slows reaction times.  Even the wheel itself is built 1000x more robust than a pc wheel, and is meant to be Slammed hard to bash the bulletproof guys off road.  Trying that on a PC wheel will either destroy it quickly, and or need to fudge the analog settings to be more sensitive to need less turning of the wheel... which alters the entire way the game plays and feels.

Asteroids Deluxe is hard to play in Mame because of the Poor quality of the simulation of the vectors.  For example, your bullet is too small compared to the real game... and is nearly invisible.  While you can boost line thickness, that makes everything else too fat.  There SHOULD be a visual effect added to better simulate the vector bullets light intensity/spread better.

 Not having a leaf button hooked up doesnt help either.  And finally, if you do not own a AD, the only way to play it is emulation.  Building a cabinet would be the only way to experience it in any way close to the original... and setting up an original layout, is the only way to get the feel of the game right & as originally designed.

I have three AD control panels... all three are bent in the middle.  It looks more like people start swearing and pounding their fists on the game.

 A lof of people cant handle losing.  Thats no surprise at all.  And with a thin metal CP that has no joystick to hamper any slamming, we can see an easy target for destruction.

 There are about three types of gamers: casual gamers, serious/hardcore gamers, and Extremist Gamers.  And a scale of people somewhere in between as well. 

 Generally, the casual gamer will play easier games... such as 3d FPS games and continue style games.  When things get too difficult, it usually turns them off to the experience... and they throw in the towel and play something else.

 On the other side, you have the hardcore gamer, who does not care if he gets beat down.  He will play as long and hard as he has to, to beat something, or at least get very adept/good at the game.  There are games that may be too difficult that even the hardcore gamer will never beat and will cease trying... however, most of the time a HC gamer will always eventually beat a game, or as said, attain a very high level of proficiency in it.

 The Extreme gamer, is the kind of gamer that will play Donkey Kong for 20hrs straight.  Will spend hours and hours learning all the obscure ways of getting the most points / lowest times / secrets / glitches...etc.  From what Ive seen, these people are highly competitive people... who do not take losing lightly.

 
 A prime example is actually Spy Hunter.  The game has a split audience.  Either people love the game to Death, or Hate it with the furry of a thousand sun's.  The game is a Hardcore game, with the sickest and dirtiest Artificial Intelligence Ive ever seen executed in-game.  To me, its downright awesome & funny too see how the game tries its best, and most often figures out how to take me out.  A real challenge game that takes a lot of practice, even just to get over the 'death every 20 seconds' hump.

 However, one of my buddies wont play the game.  It infuriates him to the point where his curse strings could end up causing a nuclear reaction.  If spontaneous combustion actually exists, Him+SH in a locked room would surely bring it on.


 Asteroids is actually an interesting game subject, because Asteroids gets a lot more love and dollar value than the superior Asteroids Deluxe.  Its pretty much the SH thing all over again. Asterioids is a lot easier of a game than AD.  AD has the hexagonal ship clusters after like the 3rd stage... which take a lot of practice to outrun+gun down. Most casual gamers cant stand this, so prefer the original Asteriods.

[pinballwizard79]

This thread sucks

[ChadTower]

He left out drunk gamers anyway and that's 95% of who would be playing an AD back in the day.

[pinballwizard79]

lmao...."& there there are the gamers with cup holders attached to their arcades" (that would be me for sure)

[Xiaou2]

hahah

 Good call.    Of course, then it comes down to what kind of drunk you are, and how bad off you are.

 Im a happy drunk, get all dimples and giggly.

[Donkbaca]

Sooo.. you are saying you didn't play these games in mame because the controls were wrong.  So basically you are saying that he won't play the asteroids in his mame machine, even though he has dedicated controls, because they aren't correct? (too wide).  Even if the cotnrols were right, the lack of proper vector emulation still makes this a waste of space, since it makes the game too hard to play, and he will probably give up, much like my cross country team experience. So aren't you just agreeing with us that this is dumb?  

Glad we could agree!  This isn't the place for disagreement after all.

I totally understand, your point, after all, that's why I quit the cross country team.  It gets hot here, and I like to wear flip flops, but ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- its hard running in flip flops.  I got discouraged and was a mess, stopped trying to run hard, got no enjoyment out of the experience.

I always figured that joysticks were slam hampering devices.  That's why I installed one on my wife's hatchback.  She was always complaining, "stop slamming the hatch!" Bam, but a joystick on that bad boy, no more slamming.  Installed one on my front door, pretty much anything that I want to slam proof.  One of my buddies was like, "man you have gone crazy!  Are you trying to MAME EVERYTHING!!!!" and I was like, "Naw man, slam proofing stuff"

I am glad you mentioned the spyhunter AI.  I always thought that game was out to get me too.  Glad its not just me.  I think it pruposely lets me get confident, only to crush me later.  Much like my older brother when he would race me when we were younger.  I would be out ahead and think I would win and then out of the blue he would run right past me, damn him and his running shoes!  I think my big brother programmed spy hunter.  I like to play spy hunter in flip flops.

I have a buddy that goes nuclear like that too.  I am like, "hey john, lets play some Uno" and he is like "look mother f*r, you even MENTION Uno again and I will kick your ass so hard you will be wearing your butt cheeks as ear muffs.  You hear me? DO YOU HEAR ME YOU SACK OF SH!T!! !"  So yeah, I totally understand what you mean.  Some people are just haters.

Dude, we are so on the same wavelength.

Signing off aboard th X2 train.

[Xiaou2]

Donkbaca, you try too hard.   When facts are skewed in order to try to patch a joke together, it equates to "fail".

 If anything, you come off as a kid who needs some mental help / therapy.

[Donkbaca]

I disagree

[Xiaou2]

You would.  And thats quite ok to do so, but I suggest you at least get a few 2nd opinions...


 As for the Slamming of the controller.. its a feature of this particular games design.  You literally cant slam the bullet proof cars off the road very well without the fastest horizontal controller motion possible, which of course results in a physical slam at the end of the controllers travel.

 The BP (bullet proof) cars generally have the advantage if they hit you first.  However, it also depends on how much acceleration they get on their slam.  If you can counter with equal acceleration, then neither of you will budge much.  If you have the greater slam-acceleration when impacting, you will make him move.

 Remember, car Speed and slam-speed are two very different things. You can be traveling faster than them, and nudge them gradually, and they wont be effected. They will retaliate and use an accelerated speed-slam to push you instead.  

 So, the game Does in fact track extreme steering acceleration... and from that data, can tell which car should win the collision.. and by how much each car should move as a result of all that.  

 This can not only be confirmed in the way the game works.. but by looking at the construction of the actual controller.  On the main shaft of the Wheel, are two 1/4" hardened steel-block arms that have about 1.5" diameter rubber bumpers on each one.  The bumpers at full travel match the angle of the metal that it hits, so there is no damages made to the incredibly strong bumpers.

 In comparison, the bumpers on a Starwars controller are about HALF the diameter, mounted directly with only a single bolt each (not a set of thick hardened metal arms), and the bumper is only 1/3rd the length.  While weight does play a factor, you can clearly see the SH controller is designed for extreme smashing abuses.

 Which makes logical sense, since you are trying to SMASH a car off the road.

[Donkbaca]

Thanks for the tip.  I will make sure not to mount a joystick on any spyhunter controls as they are supposed to be slammed. 

[Gray_Area]

After much testing, it was purposely put in a stupid place to make the game harder by the game devs...duh

That's because they could play for free, and were spending most of the time doing it.

I totally disagree, you people just don't understand mean people, and if you disagree with me, then obviously you don't understand that this isn't the place for disagreement.  I couldn't disagree with all of you more than I already do.  Excuse the typos, bUt my Handz is shaking from much anger coarsing through them over my disagreement. 

If you disagree with me that you don't understand mean people then obviously you don't understand, that I understand that you don't understand what is going on.  Please don't post your disagreements here, we aren't here to disagree.  Any of your disagreements about us not agreeing that we don't agree is just more proof that you don't know what is going on.


the end

God, this is art. LOVE the rant post later on.

[Xiaou2]

That's because they could play for free, and were spending most of the time doing it.

 Actually, it was just as Ive said.   The game was put to the test by selected groups of teens/adults in the premises (company), and on-location (actual Arcade).  If peoples play times were too long, the programmers were told to make it harder... because the arcade Ops wanted to make as much money as possible in the shortest period of time.

 However, if the game was reported by the testers & surveyed players as being too difficult to ever want to play it again, that would also have played a factor in the games design.  Generally though, kids caught on pretty quick, and would rise to the challenges.  (Unlike todays baby generation, which cant seem to handle any difficulty at all)

   In the Arcade business back then... they were Packed on a consistent basis.  Many people deep waiting to play almost every machine.  The Ops didnt want people playing the game for 1 hr, let alone more than 6 minutes at a time.  However, they knew that at very least, a person would have to invest a certain amount of money to get good enough to last longer.

 If an Op bought an $8,000 game, and players found a game glitch, or just that it was too easy and the players pretty much all played for extended periods of time on it... word of mouth would spread fast, and no other ops would buy the game. Also, the ops would raise holy hell with the company who designed it... possibly legal action if no changes were made to the roms, and no further thousand dollar purchases from that game company in the future.


 In most cases, the balance of difficulty wasnt too over the top.  But in one example, "Sinistar",  the games balance is off the charts.  The programmers made what they felt was the perfect balance, but then were Forced to change it to make it much harder.  Supposedly the easier rom set might still exist somewhere out there... but to my knowledge, it has never been found / dumped to this date.

 While programmers Did have the advantage of playing non-stop for free... Most of their time was dedicated to actually Programming, creating, and tweaking the games... rather than playing them for hours on end.  Furthermore, theres no telling if some of those programmers were even any good at their own creations.  Meaning... if they had their say, they may have made them a lot easier... which ultimately would have ruined the industry a lot sooner than what eventually happened.

 If you doubt the above, search out interviews with the 80s developers, as well as visiting 'safestuff's" atari site which has tons of Atari coin op documents from games start point to finished product.  Meetings, inside tests, outside tests, changes, more meetings, projection of costs, actual costs, controller design, controller revisions, tweaks, and redesigns...and much more.
 

[CheffoJeffo]

Or they could go to Atarigames.com, since SafeStuff went defunct quite a while ago.