Time to knock on his door

[crip102468]

  I am so pissed when people sales mame on ebay plz report this guy TY http://myworld.ebay.com/mame-supplies/

[Malenko]

love his profile pic

[Dazz]

I'm pretty sure that this person is a member here.  I know that I've seen that machine somewhere around here before.

[Rick]

I am so pissed when people sales mame on ebay plz report this guy TY http://myworld.ebay.com/mame-supplies/

Colour me confused.  Why are we reporting this guy?

 

[HaRuMaN]

He's selling MAME roms on DVD...

[Havok]

Meh.

[Rick]

He's selling MAME roms on DVD...

Gotcha.  Sorry, I clicked the link and saw some old woman's face.  Didn't understand why the OP was so upset.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm pretty sure that this person is a member here.  I know that I've seen that machine somewhere around here before.

Are you referring to the one above? It's crip102468's signature. It's annoying to have a picture that large in a sig.

[Hoopz]

The bartop is his SIGNATURE?  WTF?  That's beyond annoying.

[Frigo]

I'm pretty sure that this person is a member here.  I know that I've seen that machine somewhere around here before.

Are you referring to the one above? It's crip102468's signature. It's annoying to have a picture that large in a sig.

I haven't seen it, but big sigs are the main reason that I disabled them (the other main reason being half of them are NSFW).

RE: OP - This guy needs to be smacked. It's 2010 and people are still trying to pass off MAME ROMs as something that's available to only a select few. I mean, if he thinks of his target demo of who's willing to buy this machine, he's really insulting their intelligence.

[Havok]

The bartop is his SIGNATURE?  WTF?  That's beyond annoying.

Haha -I thought that was an attached pic...

[Ginsu Victim]

The bartop is his SIGNATURE?  WTF?  That's beyond annoying.

Haha -I thought that was an attached pic...

Yeah, I had to look for a moment and then I realized it was under the sig line.

[Hoopz]

The bartop is his SIGNATURE?  WTF?  That's beyond annoying.

Haha -I thought that was an attached pic...

Yeah, I had to look for a moment and then I realized it was under the sig line.

Good eye.  I didn't notice it until I read your first post.

I was going to say it's a good looking bartop.... let the guy sell it on Ebay if he wants. 

[ragnar]

Ignoring the legalities, not everyone wants there computer on 24-7 for a week to DL 20+ gig of data.

Jsut saying.  Also, alot of people in this country still have dial up only.

[Ginsu Victim]

Ignoring the legalities, not everyone wants there computer on 24-7 for a week to DL 20+ gig of data.

Jsut saying.  Also, alot of people in this country still have dial up only.

Yeah....you're not going to win anyone over with that statement.

[SlayerAlex]

Actualy guys if you read his listings. Hes legit.


"Note to Ebay:

THIS DISC IS NOT AN UNAUTHORIZED COPY. THE COPYRIGHT OF THE CONTENT IS EITHER OWNED BY THE SELLER, OR HAS BEEN FULLY AUTHORISED FOR USE/REPRODUCTION/SALE BY THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, OR IT IS FREELY AVAILABLE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. THE SALE OF THIS ITEM BY SELLER DOES NOT COMMIT ANY BREACH OF COPYRIGHT OWNERSHIP OR COPY REGULATIONS, IT THEREFORE COMPLIES FULLY WITH ALL OF EBAY'S RULES AND REGULATIONS "

LOL

[Frigo]

Well, if the owner says it, then it MUST be true!

[Ginsu Victim]

THIS DISC IS NOT AN UNAUTHORIZED COPY.

Yep, because that's what all the legit copyright holders start out saying.

[JustMichael]

Just 10 dvds??  Doesn't the current Mame rom set (including chd's) take up almost 250GB?  It is still wrong to sell the roms though.

[DashRendar]

Reported.

[crip102468]

Thank You thats what im looking for Reported also 

[Frigo]

Same here. Probably wont get to see his first auction reported, as it ends in 10 min. or so, but at least the 2nd one will be caught.

[oyama82]

I dont understand where is the problem
when you build cabs for your friends or customers,you dont sell them the roms?

[Rick]

when you build cabs for your friends or customers,you dont sell them the roms?

HELL NO.  Nor do I just 'download Windows XP' as you recommended in another thread.  (FYI, it's illegal and called "Copyright Infringement".)

[oyama82]

  lier....

[shateredsoul]

when I need to update to the new version .. I will probably pay the $$ since I bet later on I won't have the time to do it myself.  I don't think most ppl care about them making money, but of them drawing attention to the mame project. :

I do know one site where they include the hyperspin stuff and emumovies along with the roms/chds on a hdd.  I feel worse about that since it's taking away business from 2 groups of ppl that are actually still making some money by helping the community. Plus this site has been around for a while.. so it seems like the game companies don't care as much about someone making a buck off their old games.

[Osirus23]

Drawing attention to the MAME community by spitting in the face of its principles.

[shateredsoul]

so.. buying pc boards and reselling them after dumping it's contents is fine and dandy?

Also if you think about it, most people are interested in buying the service of having someone else download them for them.  I think most people who buy know they can download it themselves.

[Frigo]

Double post. Sorry. =P

[Frigo]

when I need to update to the new version .. I will probably pay the $$ since I bet later on I won't have the time to do it myself.  I don't think most ppl care about them making money, but of them drawing attention to the mame project. :

I do know one site where they include the hyperspin stuff and emumovies along with the roms/chds on a hdd.  I feel worse about that since it's taking away business from 2 groups of ppl that are actually still making some money by helping the community. Plus this site has been around for a while.. so it seems like the game companies don't care as much about someone making a buck off their old games.

___________

so.. buying pc boards and reselling them after dumping it's contents is fine and dandy?

Also if you think about it, most people are interested in buying the service of having someone else download them for them.  I think most people who buy know they can download it themselves.

As long as MAME has been available, one of the team's main concerns was the sale of MAME roms for profit. MAME was, and will always primarily be considered a tool to examine the history of arcade video gaming and it's progress over the years. Playing the games is merely an added benefit.

As far as your comparison - yes, it is fine to dump the roms for your own use and then sell the board when you deem it no longer useful to you. As long as you're not selling the dump, you're fine - the physical, intellectual property is being sold, not the image. That ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- about paying for convenience to not have to d/l the ROMS again - give me a break. If you're too lazy to set a download, or at the very least have a friend do it for you if you don't have the time/patience/speed/whatever, then you really shouldn't be playing MAME in the first place.

[Hoopz]

when I need to update to the new version .. I will probably pay the $$ since I bet later on I won't have the time to do it myself.  I don't think most ppl care about them making money, but of them drawing attention to the mame project. :

I do know one site where they include the hyperspin stuff and emumovies along with the roms/chds on a hdd.  I feel worse about that since it's taking away business from 2 groups of ppl that are actually still making some money by helping the community. Plus this site has been around for a while.. so it seems like the game companies don't care as much about someone making a buck off their old games.

___________

so.. buying pc boards and reselling them after dumping it's contents is fine and dandy?

Also if you think about it, most people are interested in buying the service of having someone else download them for them.  I think most people who buy know they can download it themselves.

As long as MAME has been available, one of the team's main concerns was the sale of MAME roms for profit. MAME was, and will always primarily be considered a tool to examine the history of arcade video gaming and it's progress over the years. Playing the games is merely an added benefit.

As far as your comparison - yes, it is fine to dump the roms for your own use and then sell the board when you deem it no longer useful to you. As long as you're not selling the dump, you're fine - the physical, intellectual property is being sold, not the image. That ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- about paying for convenience to not have to d/l the ROMS again - give me a break. If you're too lazy to set a download, or at the very least have a friend do it for you if you don't have the time/patience/speed/whatever, then you really shouldn't be playing MAME in the first place.

Quoting yourself?  Post whore!   

[Frigo]

LOL yeah, I got a little too worked up I didn't realize what I did, and I can't delete the post. =P
 

Better???

[Rick]

LOL yeah, I got a little too worked up I didn't realize what I did, and I can't delete the post. =P

Can you edit it to say "oops" or something a bit less graphic?

 

[shateredsoul]

Don't get me wrong

I appreciate the work and the effort being put in by the mame team. I do feel that they are doing it for historical purposes, but I don't I know anyone who would have downloaded mame if this "side effect" of being able to play did not exist

as the users of this program I think most of us don't download it for the sake of "preservation"

[Ginsu Victim]

as the users of this program I think most of us don't download it for the sake of "preservation"

I'll agree only because you said "most of us" - but plenty of us see it as preservation and understanding the hardware, not as a source of free games.

[shateredsoul]

as the users of this program I think most of us don't download it for the sake of "preservation"

I'll agree only because you said "most of us" - but plenty of us see it as preservation and understanding the hardware, not as a source of free games.

See that's cool, but it wouldn't be as interesting to understand the hardware if we couldn't give it a test run t the end for an hour or two

But I think you're right.. it would explain why so many people buy cabs before and after building a mame cab (even though they could easily play it on their mame cab).

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, owning a MAME cab only leads to owning real ones. MAME just isn't good enough. It's a gateway drug.

[Rick]

Yeah, owning a MAME cab only leads to owning real ones. MAME just isn't good enough. It's a gateway drug.

Now, THAT's what I call a signature line.

 

[Ginsu Victim]

Now you just need the part where I say, "And if I had more room -- ahem -- if my wife said we had the room, I'd have a few real cabinets."

Man, I could've had several free ones yesterday...

[shateredsoul]

ha ha ain't that the truth

I barely was able to convince her that the mame one would fit in our apt.. but after people started noticing it and commenting about how neat and cool it will be to have one she's lightened up about it.  I swear we have a line of friends who want to play it when it's ready... I'm aiming for September.

I'll get some actual cabs when we have an actual house to put them in. Hopefully

[Rick]

...after people started noticing it and commenting about how neat and cool it will be to have one she's lightened up about it.  I swear we have a line of friends who want to play it when it's ready...

I'm hoping my Wife opens up to it as well.  There have been more than a couple friends who have expressed their interest, but so far, all I've been getting is some eye rolling.  Fingers crossed!

[Ginsu Victim]

I did get my wife to accept the idea of a cocktail cabinet, so I'm working on making that happen at some point. 4-way, 2-button, vertical MAME.

[Encryptor]

This person is also selling MALA with the MAME.

"It uses the Latest Version mala frontend with everything already configured "


Encryptor

[Dazz]

The bartop is his SIGNATURE?  WTF?  That's beyond annoying.

Haha -I thought that was an attached pic...

Doh!  Me too.

[drventure]

Oops. I'm guessing maybe my sig's too big too, eh? 

Hmm, Sorry bout that, I'll see if it can't slim it up a bit.

[Ginsu Victim]

Nah, yours is fine. I'm guessing you didn't see the one we're talking about when it was still HUGE. It was like this:

[drventure]

Ouch. Ok. yeah, that's a little much 

[crip102468]

Yeah my bad i didnt realize my sig was that big and i am sorry for that its all fixed no harm done and thx for pointing that out for me ty. Great wonderfull site i love it. Now back to knocking on this guy door.

[Ginsu Victim]

I tried to report, but it kept freezing on me every time. Don't know what the deal is....

[Osirus23]

Reported all his stuff.

[pinballwizard79]

I dont understand, how is seeding & leeching any better than buying a set of DVD's? Hell I bet that dude IS a seeder that you all owe your collections to perhaps.

What Jedi & holy methods did you guys use to acquire your roms (rhetorical question of course)? My first set was 6+ years ago was a DVD collection on ebay, the next 2 came from an online source in Istanbul. Having roms is having roms guys, regardless of how found.

You guys who talk about preservation are full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, no one builds an awesome machine with custom artwork packed with a anodized spinners and flyweight, dedicated 4 way, Happ trackball & LED buttons after joining a BYOC forum are in it just to document zip files never opened. Pffft I though you guys were gamers, not librarians! Man up with me, play robotron drunk eating wings on a huge awesome machine!

Dont misinterpret my rant as trolling, I still like you guys 

[shateredsoul]

no no, you don't get it.. we pretend to be librarians and read the books when no one is looking.

[darcyp]

I dont understand, how is seeding & leeching any better than buying a set of DVD's? Hell I bet that dude IS a seeder that you all owe your collections to perhaps.

What Jedi & holy methods did you guys use to acquire your roms (rhetorical question of course)? My first set was 6+ years ago was a DVD collection on ebay, the next 2 came from an online source in Istanbul. Having roms is having roms guys, regardless of how found.

You guys who talk about preservation are full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, no one builds an awesome machine with custom artwork packed with a anodized spinners and flyweight, dedicated 4 way, Happ trackball & LED buttons after joining a BYOC forum are in it just to document zip files never opened. Pffft I though you guys were gamers, not librarians! Man up with me, play robotron drunk eating wings on a huge awesome machine!

Dont misinterpret my rant as trolling, I still like you guys 

im kind of with you. although this is technically bad, how much is this guy making on this? $10 after dvds? it almost isnt even worth the money for the work of burning them. i feel like he is charging for the blank dvds and the burning of them, not for the software on the discs.

[bradx]

ha ha ain't that the truth

I barely was able to convince her that the mame one would fit in our apt.. but after people started noticing it and commenting about how neat and cool it will be to have one she's lightened up about it.  I swear we have a line of friends who want to play it when it's ready... I'm aiming for September.

I'll get some actual cabs when we have an actual house to put them in. Hopefully

same thing happened here, she said absolutely no way not even one cab until i got one anyways and her friends came over and couldnt stop playing, now i have 3 cabs, a project cab and a pinball and she hasnt complained in a long time!

[bradx]

also: reported.  dont care if he is making $1, $10, or $100 the mame license specifically states it cannot be used in a commercial setting or as part of a for profit enterprise.  if i could make $10 profit just to copy a couple dvds i would do that all day long!  and no, i have never sold a machine with roms on it.

[Ginsu Victim]

The ROMs aren't the only things being sold, though. He's got MAME, Mala, and who knows what else on those discs.

[SlayerAlex]

snip

tell you what though, if it was legal. ALOT of other people would be selling it as well. heck i probly would too. And we would all get undercut by chinese sellers probly.  hah Im only reporting him out of jelosy. haters gunna hate.

[pinballwizard79]

Yal some silky johnsons lol

http://www.pp2g.tv/vZnB6Y3c_.aspx

[tommyinajar]

I don't know what the problem is. Didn't you read-

"Note to Ebay:

THIS DISC IS NOT AN UNAUTHORIZED COPY.

THE COPYRIGHT OF THE CONTENT IS EITHER OWNED BY THE SELLER, OR HAS BEEN FULLY AUTHORISED FOR USE/REPRODUCTION/SALE BY THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, OR IT IS FREELY AVAILABLE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. THE SALE OF THIS ITEM BY SELLER DOES NOT COMMIT ANY BREACH OF COPYRIGHT OWNERSHIP OR COPY REGULATIONS, IT THEREFORE COMPLIES FULLY WITH ALL OF EBAY'S RULES AND REGULATIONS "

Seriously, I know it's more morally (to us ) wrong to make money of  (re)pirated items. At $100, no, At $20... that barley even covers the discs, burner, & time. I ordered a Rom set from back in the day for $25 and was elated.


I wonder how many more people would get back in to arcade games, if they didn't have to setup Mame, Mala, Clrmame, U-torrent, find and D/l Roms- You have to admit that's a bit to chew off for casual, computer illiterates.

Just sayin'

[Rick]

Didn't you read

I read it.  Did you believe it?  "Authorized" or "Freely Available in the Public Domain".

 

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Clearly he's purchased every PCB with the proceeds of selling the discs, therefor making them authorized copies

[Ginsu Victim]

I don't know what the problem is. Didn't you read-

Yeah, we read it on the first page when SlayerAlex posted it first.

[tommyinajar]

I don't know what the problem is. Didn't you read-

Yeah, we read it on the first page when SlayerAlex posted it first.

I only read the current page of threads I'm on, if I had the time to read every page, I could burn Roms for a living.

Didn't you read

I read it.  Did you believe it?

 

Ebay must....

[Ginsu Victim]

I only read the current page of threads I'm on, if I had the time to read every page, I could burn Roms for a living.

                                     WALTER
                         Were you listening to the story,
                         Donny?

                                     DONNY
                         What--

                                     WALTER
                         Were you listening to the Dude's
                         story?

                                     DONNY
                         I was bowling--

                                     WALTER
                         So you have no frame of reference,
                         Donny.  You're like a child who
                         wanders in in the middle of a movie--

[HaRuMaN]

You're out of your element, Donny.

[shateredsoul]

Lets just all have white Russians and forget about all this

[Ginsu Victim]

[releasedtruth]

We are a tempermental bunch and I like it. It all comes back to the dude and how that ROM rug really tied the room together. I'm not a fan of him making a buck on the backs of people offering free product. Everyone sources material in different ways, but I've been sold copies masquerading as legit copies of software before and that definitely pisses me off...

The whites, Dude.

[Haze]

re: selling / giving away

it annoys developers and manufacturers to see such things being sold because of the following simple fact

somebody else is making money out of your hard work in a way which requires no real effort on their part.

be it to the MAME developers or the copyright holders this simple fact makes a big difference, it goes from a few people having a good time (a hobbyist project and community centered around old systems) to a commercial venture and brings a lot of negative attention to emulation in general.  Note that even when the manufacturers have made the games available for distribution on the MAME site they've specified it to be for non-commercial use only for the very same reasons.

Trying to pass somebody else's work off as your own, and making a profit out of it is an arsey thing to do.

[Frigo]

re: selling / giving away

it annoys developers and manufacturers to see such things being sold because of the following simple fact

somebody else is making money out of your hard work in a way which requires no real effort on their part.

be it to the MAME developers or the copyright holders this simple fact makes a big difference, it goes from a few people having a good time (a hobbyist project and community centered around old systems) to a commercial venture and brings a lot of negative attention to emulation in general.  Note that even when the manufacturers have made the games available for distribution on the MAME site they've specified it to be for non-commercial use only for the very same reasons.

Trying to pass somebody else's work off as your own, and making a profit out of it is an arsey thing to do.

[amendonz]

hm cracks me up around here, i'm no pirate enthusiast but lets be honest, the vast majority here never paid for the original copy of their roms. So high and mighty. If I didn't have the means to get rom sets i'd possibly consider this option. Sue me.
 

[Malenko]

hm cracks me up around here, i'm no pirate enthusiast but lets be honest, the vast majority here never paid for the original copy of their roms. So high and mighty. If I didn't have the means to get rom sets i'd possibly consider this option. Sue me.
 

getting roms and selling roms arent the same thing.

[amendonz]

I understand that but i'd just make believe i'm paying for the dvds and time used to burn them.  I'm not saying it's sweet as. But for someone like me in a country with such crap internet plans it would take months to get, and chew my whole cap up. I've got a mate sending me a harddrive loaded up. Offered him money for his time, but he wouldn't even take money for the hdd, so i'm paying postage and thats it. 

[Malenko]

you justify it however you want. If you were selling them on ebay we'd hate you too.

[amendonz]

ok. I guess apart from greasing up to someone for help sussing the romsets, the're not many options but to slowly work on building a collection. Most likely out of the question for most people.   I still think he's hardly profiteering but whatever. I do take exception to selling mala. Call me a hypocrite if you will.

[tommyinajar]

Regardless if you think selling roms, Mala or whatever is wrong for even the price of the time and  DVD's. We could just start a thread and flag and report them with the uncaged fury of the BYOAC members  
 



There were a few in New York/New Jersey we started on, and the guy started responding on CL to quit flagging him.



http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/vgm/1922281994.html

[pinballwizard79]

So you guys think its morally "ok" to steal something as long as you dont sell it or give it away right? Thats where you draw your line in the sand?

If you buy (edit: torrent) a prostitute you are no better than the pimp or the trollop, so get off your copyright infringing self righteous horses & give the guy a break. $20 = this dude is a ---smurfing--- saint helping the community. Those who oppose please delete your hard drive full of stolen ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to show me how much you believe in your cause.

Meanwhile I am going to watch my ebay acquired public domain 20 dvd set of all 190 three stooges episodes.

I feel so dirty

[shateredsoul]

He has a point..

Oftentimes this argument is veiled as an argument about the rights of the companies who created the games... if that were the case then we wouldn't download those roms ourselves (it doesn't matter if it's for preservation, I can't steal a copy of an important museum document in order to make a copy for the sake or preservation).  I don't think what' he's doing is right either, but I do see the contradiction here that most of you who are complaining have already "stolen" roms.  He's making some money off of someone else's stealing... I do consider it stealing when you make a copy of a board and then resell it.  It's like renting an xbox 360 game then copying it to a jtagged 360, buying a music cd copying it to itunes then returning it, etc etc..  We all are doing something that is technically stealing (even if you do it for the sake preservation, doesn't matter).

My question is, would you guys still report this fellow if he wasn't using the mame or mala name? If he didn't includes those brand names he wouldn't be violating any of the mame or mala agreement.  And since those roms aren't released by the mame team (...right?), there should be no bigger issue there than what we all are doing when we download rom sets.

The real issue is whether he can package mame and use the mame name (same with mala).. so why not stick to that argument? The rom argument is null when all of the people disputing it are romers.  He violated the mame and mala agreements, lets stick to that argument since that is the only real argument that can be head (considering we all had to acquire the roms in non-legit ways and  building a mame collection requires that one do this).

[nitz]

So you guys think its morally "ok" to steal something as long as you dont sell it or give it away right? Thats where you draw your line in the sand?

If you buy (edit: torrent) a prostitute you are no better than the pimp or the trollop, so get off your copyright infringing self righteous horses & give the guy a break. $20 = this dude is a ---smurfing--- saint helping the community. Those who oppose please delete your hard drive full of stolen ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to show me how much you believe in your cause.

Meanwhile I am going to watch my ebay acquired public domain 20 dvd set of all 190 three stooges episodes.

I feel so dirty

+1

I've never understood why people who download their roms from a torrent, meaning that you're sharing them as well (ie, giving roms to people) get angry when someone sells DVDs of the roms, but ONLY charges enough to cover the discs, shipping, and maybe a few dollars for his time (ie, giving roms to people). It's the same thing, only the medium is different.

I kinda get it if someone's charging $100 for a few DVDs - that is a douchey thing to do, but anyone who buys something like this online without researching it first is asking to get ripped off. I'm not saying it's right or that they deserve it - no one deserves to be taken advantage of, but they're asking for it.

I also get it if people are upset that it attracts negative attention to mame. But I don't think that's usually people's main concern.

I've also never understood people's fixation on trying to police this kind of stuff. Is that really a good use of your time? Is anyone really getting hurt? Does it even affect you other than you don't like it? These threads always remind me of a guy I know. He gets worked up about every little injustice he sees no matter how minor or how little it affects him. He'll go on a 10 minute rant, red-faced and veins popping, about basically nothing. I feel sorry for him. It seems like a sucky way to go through life.

This forum is a valuable source of info and I love you guys and I love hanging out here. But I'm gonna paraphrase pinballwizard: Man up and go play some games!!!

[Osirus23]

This thread makes me sick, people selling MAME and we have users here cheering them on. This site has really gone downhill.

[Ginsu Victim]

This thread makes me sick, people selling MAME and we have users here cheering them on. This site has really gone downhill.

I hear ya.

[shateredsoul]

come on seriously, maybe we're not understanding each other.. there seems to be several points of disagreement.

so what is the part that pisses people off?

1. He's profiting
2. It's illegal to distribute roms
3. He included mame and mala in the advertising therefore breaking the agreement?

If it's 1, ok fine, that makes sense to me. He doesn't seem to be profiting too much, but he's profiting off something that can be downloaded for free (although this act of downloading is still illegal).

If it's 2, then I still agree with nitz and pinballwiz.  When you get your roms through torrents you're still giving it to other and you are still downloading without owning the pcb. Many of these roms are still being sold on classic collections and through new download setups on newer systems.

3. Agreed, he shouldn't advertise as mame or include mala to avoid hurting those projects and due to the agreements.

Hmmm I guess the worst part is that his actions go against the hacker code (or open sources spirit), to redistribute for free at no cost and no profit. I bet if he offered to burn dvds for those who supplied their own dvds at no cost to the sender (other than paying their own shipping) this would be seen as ok. If this wasn't worth his while he also would probably not be going out of his way to setup an ebay account and sell it.

I don't think that people are supporting him (at least I don't), but they want us to reflect on the fact that what we are doing is not that great either.. who are we to tell another person that they are doing wrong when to run mame one must have done something "wrong" at some point. Unless you dumped your own pcbs.

[nitz]

This thread makes me sick, people selling MAME and we have users here cheering them on. This site has really gone downhill.

I certainly wouldn't cheer anyone on who is selling MAME.

I was talking about selling roms, and not even so much for profit, but people basically taking a few dollars to cover DVDs, time, and postage.

Anyone who thinks that's worse than downloading from a torrent is kidding themselves, plain and simple. It's virtually the same thing, as I already stated. And I think we could all be doing better things with our time than reporting these people and getting into endless debates about it - me included.

Those are the only two points I was trying to make.

[pinballwizard79]

This thread makes me sick, people selling MAME and we have users here cheering them on. This site has really gone downhill.

Bahahahahahaha now thats funny!

The dude isnt selling mame per se, he is selling the Roms! No one is cheering him on either, we are simply not backing up hypocritical anti DVD statements. Would you Nancy's feel better if he only sold the roms & changed the listing to "complete set of arcade emulator roms".

Hmmmmm, then what would the problem be? Damn I just solved the age old puzzle! We call them arcade emulator roms & sell em everywhere without pissing off torrent fanoys!

Deal?

Oh yeah my most recent set was torrent, see I dont discriminate  

[SlayerAlex]

come on seriously, maybe we're not understanding each other.. there seems to be several points of disagreement.

so what is the part that pisses people off?

1. He's profiting

ya for me its number 1. Id like to make money off other peoples work too ya know. But i dont because i thought it was not allowed. So now because i dont, this guy has more of a monopoly on the product.  tottaly unfair. So if ebay is allowing this, then me, (and lots of others like me) would love to give this guy competition.

Just some consistency would be nice. IS it allowed or not?

[saint]

Just some consistency would be nice. IS it allowed or not?

Regardless of what moral platitudes people come up with to make themselves feel better, it's plainly illegal so not, it's not allowed.

[shfifty]

These threads always remind me of a guy I know. He gets worked up about every little injustice he sees no matter how minor or how little it affects him. He'll go on a 10 minute rant, red-faced and veins popping, about basically nothing. I feel sorry for him. It seems like a sucky way to go through life.

Reminds me of an incident when i was doing high school. A bunch of friends an myself made our ways into a drama hall that was left unlocked, and cleaned out a freezer filled with ice creams. We all enjoyed the 'free' ice creams and had a bit of a laugh, the school lost a few dollars worth of ice cream but in the big picture it wasnt really a major deal and no one got hurt from it. Until the bystander kid that no one likes 'told' on all of us, we were punished with detention and had to pay the money back for the ice creams.

I guess some people were just born with the need to complain, especially when they're not getting a piece of the pie.   

[CheffoJeffo]

Most of this hobby is black and white in terms of actual legality and filled with shades of gray in terms of where people's morality kicks in.

Despite all of the outrage and indignation on both sides .... absolutely nothing new being said here.   

I was actually most pissed off that he flat-out lied to buyers about the legal status.

[Malenko]

So you guys think its morally "ok" to steal something as long as you dont sell it or give it away right?

Moral schmoral. Both are wrong, but one is "more wrong". And the ---uvula--- is saying in his auctions its legal. Oh please explain to me how that ok?

[Ginsu Victim]

I was actually most pissed off that he flat-out lied to buyers about the legal status.

This is what bothered me the most. The guy can't even be honest about doing it.

[shateredsoul]

so regardless of what moral reasoning we come up with, downloading mame roms is also illegal, and especially when people torrent because they also distribute

I think the legal standpoint holds little water when it comes from people that mame (especially those that have full mame collections), I do get the whole matter of principle thing.  Maybe this distinction is made to make romers (those that collect roms) feel better about their actions and hobbie? But I get it... Someone dumped those pcbs as a free service (funded by donations), and mame and mala were also meant as free services. Selling it and making money off of a project that someone started as a free service is a bit sneaky and underhanded. So this is an argument should be about morals rather than legality. I don't think either side is in a position where they can claim one thing is more legal than another. 

At the same time I have to admit that what a lot of us do is also not legal, but morally it's not as disturbing since most of these roms are not making profit in our current market (and in fact companies may not complain because they do use the source code for their collections), people who want to build an arcade have no other means to acquire said roms, and it doesn't harm the mainstream market. After all if people can't find an app to do it for them they usually don't have the time or patience to setup software and search websites anymore.

[CheffoJeffo]

As I said, the legal aspects are pretty much black and white ... the argument is entirely about morality.

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, totally about the moral issue of selling it versus merely downloading it. I have no problem with it being illegal to have them (I have a massive collection of burned games and movies, but I'd never sell them. Matter of fact, I went off on my cousin when I found out that he makes money on the side by burning copies of the newest releases and selling them at work!).

[mmb]

+1

I've never understood why people who download their roms from a torrent, meaning that you're sharing them as well (ie, giving roms to people) get angry when someone sells DVDs of the roms, but ONLY charges enough to cover the discs, shipping, and maybe a few dollars for his time (ie, giving roms to people). It's the same thing, only the medium is different.

If you're charging labor in the equation, then you're charging for a product, not just to ship it.  That you're only charging a "little" doesn't matter.  That he values his time so little doesn't change the fact that there is a charge.

If you're giving something away, give it away.  Send a Self Address Stamped mailer to BLAH BLAH BLAH with X number of blanks and I'll burn and send it back *might* pass the sniff test, but mostly this just stinks.

[Rick]

If you're charging labor in the equation, then you're charging for a product, not just to ship it.  That you're only charging a "little" doesn't matter.  That he values his time so little doesn't change the fact that there is a charge.

Not if you call it a 'service'.  That's how a lot of people get around legalities.  Or at least, tell themselves they got around it.  "Oh, I'm not charging for the software on the discs.  Oh, no.  That's illegal.  I'm charging a 'service fee' for the amount of time I spent actually putting 'stuff' onto the discs themselves, as well as my time to go to the mailbox and send this to you."

Dammit.  How the hell did I get into this now?

 

[DashRendar]

come on seriously, maybe we're not understanding each other.. there seems to be several points of disagreement.

so what is the part that pisses people off?

These are the points I take issue with:

1. Reselling software (Mala frontend, Digital Leisure games, etc) that are actively being sold and are under copyright.  This is different than ROMs of games that haven't been in production for decades.  This is openly pirating software, taking credit for someone else's work.

2. Selling freeware (MAME, Daphne, etc) whose license agreements state selling them is against their terms.  These emulators are developed by the goodwill of a small group of people.  If people keep blatantly ignoring their terms, it can increase the legal risk for those developers and they may quit doing it.

3. Seller claiming he has written permission to sell these legally, which is obviously a lie.  (Can you trust this seller?)

4. Bringing MAME/ROMS into the spotlight, which can draw attention from the copyright holders and law enforcement to start cracking down on it.  This is better as an "underground" movement, at least until the copyrights expire and the I.P. joins the public domain.  (Do you want an arcade version of the RIAA getting involved?  I don't.)

[mmb]

If you're charging labor in the equation, then you're charging for a product, not just to ship it.  That you're only charging a "little" doesn't matter.  That he values his time so little doesn't change the fact that there is a charge.

Not if you call it a 'service'.  That's how a lot of people get around legalities.  Or at least, tell themselves they got around it.  "Oh, I'm not charging for the software on the discs.  Oh, no.  That's illegal.  I'm charging a 'service fee' for the amount of time I spent actually putting 'stuff' onto the discs themselves, as well as my time to go to the mailbox and send this to you."

Dammit.  How the hell did I get into this now?

 

I'm a drug mule.  I don't provide the drugs, I provide a delivery service for whatever gets packaged in condoms and swallowed. 

[Rick]

I'm a drug mule.  I don't provide the drugs, I provide a delivery service for whatever gets packaged in condoms and swallowed. 

Or, you're Paris Hilton.  "It's not my purse."  Either way, people seem to want to use this as an excuse.  It's just like I used to see at computer shows.  Many manufacturers would sell you their computers loaded up with software, OS's, you name it, in the hopes you'd buy their hardware instead of the competition's.

[Mikezilla]

Would you Nancy's feel better if he only sold the roms & changed the listing to "complete set of arcade emulator roms".

Haha oh man Im on your side just for you using the term "Nancy's". Thats awesome! 

Seriously though, what if people WANT to buy these things? I have some friends that arent computer savvy enough to get things up and running, if they could have a disc, pop it in, click a few things and start playing games that are over 20 years old, whats the big deal? The guy is only making a couple bucks, seriously, A FEW DOLLARS. You guys are going nuts like he is making a living off of these things. I dunno, it doesnt seem like that big a deal to me. The companies that made money off of these games made their money already. Thats why we are having to "preserve" them. I think MAME is awesome, dont get me wrong, but like I said, the amount of money he is making is mediocre at best. I wouldnt say "this thread is making me sick", I think thats a little over the top. 

Then as a counter arguement, (sometimes do that to myself, with this being an istance) I dont know what it takes to actually make a "MAME" game, software wise. I have no idea what the process is to write the code to make the game identical to the original. If its a huge process and takes forever to do, then yes. This would be completely immoral. If it takes a little bit of time to do, with not that much effort, then meh. Times is money, thats what we are really talking about here. Time.

[Ginsu Victim]

The companies that made money off of these games made their money already.

What do you think of someone running MAME on an iPhone vs buying Pac-man/Ms Pacman/Dig Dug/Galaga/etc on an iPhone? Or MAME on a console vs buying one of the official collections?

Not to mention the re-releases of actual arcade games...

[Mikezilla]

I suppose it depends on how much it costs, vs the pain in the butt it is to do it. If it said "download this for free and configure it yourself' vs "pay 1 dollar and play it with minimal hassle" I would go for the second option. Like I said, its not like this dude is getting paid a significant amount of cash. Besides, those games are so old! People like us are into this hobby for the EXPIERIENCE, and what it was like to play this games as kids on big arcade machines! The controls! Thats what it is for me anyway. Keep in mind those games were a business, they were designed to eat up your quarters. Ever been to the end of a metal slug game and actually beat it in an arcade? Jesus. So much money...

Personally I wouldnt buy, or DL any of those games for my iphone lol. I dunno, just seems like its not worth all this fuss. Dont get me wrong, I love you guys, you have all helped me out with my projects etc, but I dont really think this topic is THAT morally "wrong". Ill probably get chastised for that, but cmon.

[Ginsu Victim]

I suppose it depends on how much it costs

So it's okay to steal if the price is too high?

Whatever...

I don't justify my piracy. If I do it, it's because I can. Plain and simple.

I buy some stuff, I pirate others. A lot of the time, I pirate something, like it, then go buy it.

[CheffoJeffo]

Then as a counter arguement, (sometimes do that to myself, with this being an istance) I dont know what it takes to actually make a "MAME" game, software wise. I have no idea what the process is to write the code to make the game identical to the original. If its a huge process and takes forever to do, then yes. This would be completely immoral. If it takes a little bit of time to do, with not that much effort, then meh. Times is money, thats what we are really talking about here. Time.

It's been over 10 years with a large number of people working on it donating their time while others donate money to buy new boards for dumping.

[Osirus23]

So what gives some ---uvula--- the right to make "A FEW DOLLARS" per copy selling a program he himself took part in writing, when the people who actually did write it did it without receiving ANY compensation and specifically distributed it with the stipulation that it never be sold for money?

[Hoopz]

This topic gets posted every few months and it follows the same general path of:

Why is/are Mame/emulation/roms legal/illegal
Discussion of DCMA
Intent of Mame and Mamedevs v. needs of end users
Obligatory post by Saint showing that BYOAC loves Mamedevs 
Original PCBs v. roms
Discussion of legal aspects from everyone except a legal expert in this particular area
What Nintendo, Atari, Mattel, Namco, or ______ do to protect their copyrights
Discussion of copyright law v. patents v. trademarks
General bickering
Discussion that DCMA doesn't apply to those outside the US

Someone needs to sticky one of these damn threads so that people can continue the same arguments ad nauseum without starting new threads.

[Mikezilla]

It's been over 10 years with a large number of people working on it donating their time while others donate money to buy new boards for dumping.

Ok see, now I didnt know that. That sounds like quite the undertaking. I was doing a little reading on it between posts, so I get it now.

So it's okay to steal if the price is too high?

Whatever...

I don't justify my piracy. If I do it, it's because I can. Plain and simple.

I buy some stuff, I pirate others. A lot of the time, I pirate something, like it, then go buy it.

Ok so Im confused now. What is your point? You pirate stuff, and dont care, because youre not making money off of it?

So what gives some ---uvula--- the right to make "A FEW DOLLARS" per copy selling a program he himself took part in writing, when the people who actually did write it did it without receiving ANY compensation and specifically distributed it with the stipulation that it never be sold for money?

You also have to keep in mind he is selling them, who knows, me might have not even have got any buyers. Im not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just think its an interesting arguement. But see, they did it by volunteering. They dont care if they get money or not, when people volunteer, they dont expect to get compensated. Thats the point. Youre right, they never intended it to be sold, but cmon, with the internet, its going to happen. You think the Chinese intended that their fireworks were going to end up killing people?! (creation of gunpowder).

But now being educated on the whole MAME project, and what Cheffo said, yes I now change my stance on it being immoral. Like I stated before I didnt know the magnituide of what it took to actually "MAME" a game. I just wouldnt let it anger me like it did to you. (Osirus23) Its like this dude punched your mom or something.

[Ginsu Victim]

Ok so Im confused now. What is your point? You pirate stuff, and dont care, because youre not making money off of it?

No, my point is it sounded like you were justifying pirating stuff based on price ("This game is too high so I'll pirate it instead").

[CheffoJeffo]

It's all shades of gray and everybody's tolerance is different.

For example, I told you about the efforts behind MAME because you asked, but I also own multiboards that are illegal and also based on MAME. Folks like Haze (EDIT: by this I mean folks that support MAME and MAMEDevs, nothing derogatory!) despise the guys who sell those boards and, I imagine, don't look kindly on folks like me who buy them, but they were a good fit for what I wanted (one replace a MAME box in my vertical MAME cab) and way cheaper than building new MAME boxes.

I used to report folks who sold MAME cabs for ridiculous amounts of money, but don't bother anymore.

I didn't bother to report this guy.

I don't flag multigames on CL either (particularly since most of the ones that come up locally are sold by people I know).

OTOH, I was very unhappy when D2K was added to Misfit MAME and also rather unhappy when a poster here complained about D2K to Nintendo.

[Turnarcades]

I got bad deja-vu. I get it every 3 months or so when us old farts get a bit defensive against the latest wave of noobs about the old MAME/discs chestnut.

Oldies - we know the score and I know we're just trying to cap these arguments early on when they start, but I say let's save our blood pressures.

Noobs - welcome to the first of many of these threads. ebay don't really care enough, the rules of this forum stand, and as you become a hobbyist you soon realise:

The first rule of fight club is..... you do not talk about fight club.

[pinballwizard79]

"This is what bothered me the most. The guy can't even be honest about doing it"
Is it honest to DL roms & then bash someone for selling what you stole?


"Bringing MAME/ROMS into the spotlight, which can draw attention from the copyright holders and law enforcement to start cracking down on it"
Um you mean like a forum full of people showing off their arcades or companies like dream authentics giving a machine to Hugh Heffner or youtube videos, or front ends that are awesome (psst HS) or companies like GGG/Ultimarc. The root of all MAME evil is prob the chrome joystick or custom artwork, they are the shiny beacon of MAME! I am sure however you learned about this whole emulation thing via a catastrophic & epic breach of arcade club silence.

Anyway my point is MAME is not a secret. Actually some guy has the balls to sell a hack of a game he didnt even make & flame people who fail to pay for his borrowed theme! Wait are we all guilty of being trolls in this thread? Why are we arguing with our arcade peers....FML lets all just get along, download files, seed torrents & trade DVD's eating chicken nuggets drunk & overclocking our CPU's for Cruisn USA. Enough of this  

Edited: changed post fu

[CheffoJeffo]

Dude, your quote-fu completely sucks! It's like reading one of Xiaou's posts!  

 

And, I think what Ginsu was saying, since he was agreeing with me, was that the seller was explicitly stating that these are legal copies, which completely misleads the buyer. That is exactly the problem that I have with the guy -- I don't care much otherwise.

[pinballwizard79]

Dude I hear you cheffo, I almost put a Xiaou warning header in front of it all lol  Decided not to because I feared it would result in a mile long post about ninja stars, Stern pinball & CRT's.

I have no beef with Ginsu or Dash by the way, hopefully I dont appear to be too much of a tool. I just like the DVD people, a lot. No I am not one of them but I appreciate what they do.

My arcade is broke right now & I have nothing better to do but hate on those who have one thats working 

[Ginsu Victim]

I have no beef with Ginsu or Dash by the way

Didn't think so, it's cool. The post of mine you quoted had to do with the guy lying about owning the rights to the games and saying not to report him to ebay because he's done nothing wrong. That's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

"Note to Ebay:

THIS DISC IS NOT AN UNAUTHORIZED COPY. THE COPYRIGHT OF THE CONTENT IS EITHER OWNED BY THE SELLER, OR HAS BEEN FULLY AUTHORISED FOR USE/REPRODUCTION/SALE BY THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, OR IT IS FREELY AVAILABLE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. THE SALE OF THIS ITEM BY SELLER DOES NOT COMMIT ANY BREACH OF COPYRIGHT OWNERSHIP OR COPY REGULATIONS, IT THEREFORE COMPLIES FULLY WITH ALL OF EBAY'S RULES AND REGULATIONS "

[nitz]

So you guys think its morally "ok" to steal something as long as you dont sell it or give it away right?

Moral schmoral. Both are wrong, but one is "more wrong". And the ---uvula--- is saying in his auctions its legal. Oh please explain to me how that ok?

It's definitely not legal of course. But when it comes to the moral thing, it gets to be more a matter of opinion. Your opinion is that it's more wrong to sell than to give away. That's perfectly fine. My opinion is, that it's no more wrong to sell for a fairly insignificant amount of money to cover time to burn and mail discs than it is to give away. I would say that it is more wrong to charge a ton of money because then you are basically fishing for someone who doesn't know much about this stuff with the aim of taking them for a ride.

If you're charging labor in the equation, then you're charging for a product, not just to ship it.  That you're only charging a "little" doesn't matter.  That he values his time so little doesn't change the fact that there is a charge.

If you're giving something away, give it away.  Send a Self Address Stamped mailer to BLAH BLAH BLAH with X number of blanks and I'll burn and send it back *might* pass the sniff test, but mostly this just stinks.

I agree with you that if you're charging labor in the equation, then you're charging for a product, not just to ship it. I agree with that from a legal standpoint. To use your own example, a drug mule who says they simply provide a delivery service is full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and there's obviously no way that argument would ever hold up in court. But from a moral standpoint, I have no issue with someone charging a few bucks for burning and shipping roms. Maybe you do and that's fine. But if I were going to burn DVDs, package them up, get the person's address on the package, go to the post office, probably stand in line for 10 minutes, and then come home, all for a relative stranger, well, you can bet I would want a few bucks for that. For the record, I've never sold rom DVDs, nor would I. I really value my free time, and for what I would have to charge to make it worthwhile for me, I would be stepping into the area where I feel I'm ripping people off, and I don't want to do that.

OTOH, I was very unhappy when D2K was added to Misfit MAME and also rather unhappy when a poster here complained about D2K to Nintendo.

I can't even imagine why a poster on here, who likely has roms, would choose this to take a stand on and complain to Nintendo. That's just plain silly. But as far as it being added to misfitmame...meh. If it was an original game, I would totally be with you, but it's a hack using code, characters, graphics, and sound he does not own. It is a very very good hack, but it's still a hack. I can't say I feel bad if it being added to misfitmame cost him a few sales.

I got bad deja-vu. I get it every 3 months or so when us old farts get a bit defensive against the latest wave of noobs about the old MAME/discs chestnut.

I'm a relatively new poster, but I've been hanging out here for a couple years and have gone through a lot of threads from even before that. So I know this topic is old hat, but I feel getting into it is part of my initiation into the forum. After this one, I doubt I'll get into another one like this again.

DashRendar: Bringing MAME/ROMS into the spotlight, which can draw attention from the copyright holders and law enforcement to start cracking down on it. PW79: Um you mean like a forum full of people showing off their arcades or companies like dream authentics giving a machine to Hugh Heffner or youtube videos, or front ends that are awesome (psst HS) or companies like GGG/Ultimarc. The root of all MAME evil is prob the chrome joystick or custom artwork, they are the shiny beacon of MAME! I am sure however you learned about this whole emulation thing must have been via a catastrophic & epic breach of arcade club silence.

Agreed. This stuff probably draws more attention to mame than anything else. And when you think about it, most of these rom sellers probably wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the mame cab scene.

Wait are we all guilty of being trolls in this thread? Why are we arguing with our arcade peers....FML lets all just get along, download files, seed torrents & trade DVD's eating chicken nuggets drunk & overclocking our CPU's for Cruisn USA. Enough of this 

Also agreed! And I certainly have no beef with anyone here either! And I think I'm done posting in this thread now...unless of course someone says something that I just have to add my 2 cents to.

[bradx]

I wonder how many more people would get back in to arcade games, if they didn't have to setup Mame, Mala, Clrmame, U-torrent, find and D/l Roms- You have to admit that's a bit to chew off for casual, computer illiterates.

Just sayin'

maybe enough that copyright holders would start thinking they are losing out on potential revenue and start enforcing their copyrights.  maybe more than most mamers would like.  maybe the whole point is to keep it from the casual computer illiterates! 

[bradx]

ps: i am unemployed and if i could sit around selling dvds of copyrighted material on ebay for $10 an hour i would do it all day long!  if its ok for him to do it then it should be ok for everyone, and it is not, thats why it needed to be flagged.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

You know, part of me wonders if the guy just doesn't understand what "Public Domain" really means. That certainly doesn't excuse him, though.

[shateredsoul]

It's wrong cuz it's wrong , don't think about it or question it! 

yes selling mame roms is wrong, the issue is all the contradictions that are used to "prove"why members of the mame club are not wrong

fact is, we all mame so we're all on the same field.  We're not the ones selling these dvds so no need to get hot headed about this whole issue .  Youth often bring innovation and change, so maybe this is a sign that the mame and cab scene is changing.  Some of us see an issue  with all these contradictions  (when one claims a higher moral when the hobby requires breaking the law, selling drawing attention to the hobbie vs arcade cabs on youtube and fancy front ends) and enjoy having debates over the issue.  But the end, I think we all agree that the guy on ebay was misleading ebay and the buyer, some just don't care as much.

If you're going to report them fine, just do some self reflections before going on that self righteous speech about how illegal it is and how sick it makes ya. It's fine to post this and alert the community so those who wish to report him can, but be open to talking about it.

[CheffoJeffo]

Youth often bring innovation and change, so maybe this is a sign that the mame and cab scene is changing. 

Absolutely -- there are so many more people doing this now than ever before ... oh wait, hasn't the number of ROM burners has actually declined pretty significantly. 

[shateredsoul]

Youth often bring innovation and change, so maybe this is a sign that the mame and cab scene is changing.  

Absolutely -- there are so many more people doing this now than ever before ... oh wait, hasn't the number of ROM burners has actually declined pretty significantly.  

If by rom burners you meant those who sell rom, that's not who I meant.. I'm referring  to new people who are getting into the hobby of cab building and emulation. Those of us who like street fighter and don't despise fighters . It was referring ito an earlier comment where someone stated that these conversations always happen, the newbz come in and get all the old fogies worked up, these newbz may be the next generation of cab builders who may have more of an interest in debating the morality issues within mame-ing.  Like said earlier, the law part of it is pretty clear for selling roms and for downloading/uploading roms you don't own.

either way, we all love us some emulation, which is what brings us together

[Havok]

You'll never prove a thing, copper, I'm just a part time electrician…bad is good, baby! Down with government!