The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: saint on April 28, 2003, 11:19:22 pm
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Yeah, I know, I'm asking an emulation question... I was pondering the whole thing the other day trying to add up how many ROMS you could possibly legally own without owning the arcade boards. For instance, I know there are 3 ROMS for MAME that have been released by the owners. Then there's the Hanaho Capcom release, which has 14. That makes 17 total.
How many others can folks think of? There's the Atari Arcade Hits that doesn't seem to be emulation, so doesn't count as a legal way to own a ROM. I'm not certain of the Microsoft Arcade hits. Doesn't have to be restricted to the PC either, for instance the Sega Smashpack for the Dreamcast which doesn't discuss if it's emulation or a port.
Any others that can be positively identified as being emulation products?
--- saint
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The Williams Classic games were released legally in an emulated version for the Macintosh a while back (or at least I read that somewhere).
Any game available on an Ultracade counts, since you can just buy the Ultracade CDs which won't work in your computer, but do have the games on them. (That adds like 100 games).
I personally prefer what someone else once said to me.
"I have an original boardset in my cabinet. It is so trashed you can't even tell what manufacturer made it, much less what game it is. As far as I am concerned it is every game."
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That's a beautiful quote, paigeoliver. :)
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I think hanho's arcadePC cabs used to come with 50 games, more than (but including the 14 in) just the hotrod CD. Not sure if they still do; can't get their website ATM.
Also, there's Ultracade: all machines come with 86, + the add-on packs = 101, + 13 in 2 "coming soon" add-on packs = 114. I just saw an ultracade today with games from the "pop pack", so I assume both the "coming soon" packs came.
Not sure if you would count them though, since you have to buy a cab to get them. No need to own the original PCB, no, but something close to owning one. *shrug* :)
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We could possibly get more games "opened up" for Mame use if we tried. I'll bet a lot of the 3000 MAME games now belong to two bit companies, and individuals. It would just be a matter of tracking down what happened to all those tiny game manufacturers.
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The original Activision "Atari 2600" packs were emulation / roms
*shrug* FWIW anyways...
Rampy
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We could possibly get more games "opened up" for Mame use if we tried. I'll bet a lot of the 3000 MAME games now belong to two bit companies, and individuals. It would just be a matter of tracking down what happened to all those tiny game manufacturers.
I think that could be done, especially with psiko (sp?) and atari arcade shutting down.
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Is there a way to buy the Capcom ROMs without buying an ArcadePC or HotRod?
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There's the Atari Arcade Hits that doesn't seem to be emulation, so doesn't count as a legal way to own a ROM.
Atari Anniversay/Hits, Williams Classics/Hits, and Midway Greatest Hits all use original roms with an emulator made by Digital Eclipse. (Thats like over 20 roms right there). If you go to their site, they have a couple more. Besides Ultracade (which is uber expensive), Digital Eclipse is the only other company I know that sells a commercial emulator bundled legally with roms.
Now are you legally allowed to play these same roms via Mame (if you own the DE discs)? I've looked at the license closely for the Williams disc, and the only stipulation I see is that it is for use "on a single computer only with Microsoft operating system products". No commercial use, for home use only. I haven't looked at the other disc licenses. You could actually run an FE with DE's emulator just like mame and be fine. Who needs mame anyway?
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Is there a way to buy the Capcom ROMs without buying an ArcadePC or HotRod?
Used to be able to by just the 14 rom cd by itself.
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There's the Atari Arcade Hits that doesn't seem to be emulation, so doesn't count as a legal way to own a ROM.
Atari Anniversay/Hits, Williams Classics/Hits, and Midway Greatest Hits all use original roms with an emulator made by Digital Eclipse. (Thats like over 20 roms right there).
I went to their site, www.digitaleclipse.com. Yeah, they say it is emulation. Cool, I have atari hits:) Which leads to the question, how did they do discrete sound....
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Now are you legally allowed to play these same roms via Mame (if you own the DE discs)? I've looked at the license closely for the Williams disc, and the only stipulation I see is that it is for use "on a single computer only with Microsoft operating system products". No commercial use, for home use only.
My understanding is that this is correct, since you do legally own this game. Of course, all of my knowledge of the American legal system comes from watching reruns of "Law & Order", so take this with a grain of salt. ;)
Is there a way to buy the Capcom ROMs without buying an ArcadePC or HotRod?
Used to be able to by just the 14 rom cd by itself.
From who, Hanaho? I'd buy such a disc if it was available.
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Now are you legally allowed to play these same roms via Mame (if you own the DE discs)? I've looked at the license closely for the Williams disc, and the only stipulation I see is that it is for use "on a single computer only with Microsoft operating system products". No commercial use, for home use only.
My understanding is that this is correct, since you do legally own this game. Of course, all of my knowledge of the American legal system comes from watching reruns of "Law & Order", so take this with a grain of salt. ;)
My understanding is you have a license to use the software & data as stated in the license agreement you agreed to by opening the CD; no ownership of anything but the plastic & silver making the CD. AFAIK, this is currently being debated in the US courts.
Most licenses, AFAIK, don't restrict the use from emulators, but some for console CDs state "no use on any system but the console this cd was designed for" or close to that effect. If the license is like that, it would mean you could legally use the Xbox arcade classics CD in the xbox mame emu, but not on the normal mame on a PC.
Is there a way to buy the Capcom ROMs without buying an ArcadePC or HotRod?
Used to be able to by just the 14 rom cd by itself.
From who, Hanaho? I'd buy such a disc if it was available.
Yes, from Hanaho; used to be ~$24 IIRC. Not sure if they still do sell it alone, and can't find it anymore on their site, though. One of the resellers might have it, or you could try contacting Hanaho and asking for it. It's called "Capcom Coin-Op Classics".
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Most licenses, AFAIK, don't restrict the use from emulators, but some for console CDs state "no use on any system but the console this cd was designed for" or close to that effect. If the license is like that, it would mean you could legally use the Xbox arcade classics CD in the xbox mame emu, but not on the normal mame on a PC.
Very true, I have the Midway classics disc for Dreamcast, and it specifically says for use on the Sega Dreamcast console only. There are other standard stipulations like I mentioned above as well. The Digital Eclipse CDs seem the lest restrictive (for mame/other emulator type use on a PC). Hmmm...I wonder if the XBOX would be considered a "comupter" since it is an x86 CPU and runs a "microsoft operating system". ;D
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Smashpack for the Dreamcast which doesn't discuss if it's emulation or a port.
It's a Genesis emulator, except Virtua Cop, which is a port. There's rips out on the net with a third party menu app that lets you run any Genesis roms with it.
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So do we have a tally list so far?
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This brings up an my arguement about arcade roms. I don't think the machines came with any user agreement like modern software did. You can check the manuals to specific games (if available).
No one was thinking about emulation back then.
I just looked through the Galaxian manual, and nowhere inside was any sort of licensing agreement, and certainly nothing that stated that my right to the game lived on the game circuit board or rom chips.
That lack of statement (in my mind at least), means that my right to play Galaxian lives in any part of the machine that I happen to possess. Since I have a converted Galaxian cabinet, then I have the right to play Galaxian. I also have a Pac-Man marquee bracket, a Galaga coin door, and a converted Ms. Pac panel on that same cabinet (along with a Top Gunner kit), and in those parts lives my rights to play those games. Can they PROVE that the rest of that machine exists somewhere, and that my parts aren't all that is left?
Would Sega's lawyers have a case against me for emulating Carnival (cocktail), when I have the joysticks from the thing? For that matter could they prove that my Namco Reunion joystick isn't all that is left of that rather shoddy product =).
The whole arguement that the game lives on the ROM chips falls flat when it comes to laserdisc games, since those roms are distributed freely, and not even the people who own the rights to the games seem to care (the laserdisc content itself however is something different).
I am sure my car has a couple eprom chips in it, and it wouldn't work without them. But it would be folly to say that my right to the car lives on those chips. Like an arcade game, the eprom is just one tiny part of a larger whole.
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I think hanho's arcadePC cabs used to come with 50 games, more than (but including the 14 in) just the hotrod CD. Not sure if they still do; can't get their website ATM.
Can anyone confirm the "50 games" that came with the arcadePC cabs? One of our arcade part vendors (Oscar?) should contact Hanaho and start distributing these if possible. I have the Hotrod CD, but would pay for 50 game CD or other legitimate ROMS.
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I don't suppose anyone would know what it would take to comercialy operate with MAME? Would it be any differnt than with home use? Would it be sufficient to just have the ROM chips or would you need to have the whole PCBs? Has anyone made a commercial cab with MAME yet? (I mean commercialy operated like in a bar ect.)
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I don't suppose anyone would know what it would take to comercialy operate with MAME? Would it be any differnt than with home use? Would it be sufficient to just have the ROM chips or would you need to have the whole PCBs? Has anyone made a commercial cab with MAME yet? (I mean commercialy operated like in a bar ect.)
Uh oh, now you did it. Now we are going to have the MAME police all over you. These are the ones that will tell you it is OK to pirate for personal use, but not for commercial purposes.
First you will have to address the MAME license, then the ROM licenses. Ignoring MAME, If Dave_K is correct:
I've looked at the license closely for the Williams disc, and the only stipulation I see is that it is for use "on a single computer only with Microsoft operating system products". No commercial use, for home use only. I haven't looked at the other disc licenses. You could actually run an FE with DE's emulator just like mame and be fine. Who needs mame anyway?
Then you could probably get away with it sorta legally. I doubt if Williams would like it, but if they didn't restrict the use then as you should be good.
I checked on the MAME license (http://www.mame.net/readme.html (http://www.mame.net/readme.html)) and it looks like it doesn't prohibit using it to make money. You aren't allowed to sell it or distribute it with illegal roms, but looks like it be used to generate revenue.
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Just to add to the fun... I was reviewing the license agreement that came with my Hasbro Atari Arcade Hits (Asteroids, Centipede, Misssile Command, PONG, Super Breakout, and Tempest) and though it does prevent me from renting or selling copies of the CDROM it sure doesn't look like it would have any problems with commercial use.
Now back to the original question. The documentation indicates that these games are emulated, so if someone would just identify the ROM code in the data files and write a program to extract them so that you could obtain the roms from your personal copy of Atari Arcade Hits, then you would have 6 more games to add to the list.
Though now that I think about it, MAME does not support pong? I believe it was built with discrete circuits and had no ROMs? So at least all of them aren't emulated. The same may hold true for breakout.
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I was at the local Julians (Arundal Mills .. Maryland) the other day, and they had a cabinet that had, I would say, about 100 old school games (.1941, Frogger, Ghost&Ghouls... ect) and newer ones (StreetFighter...). It had a spinning wheel of the Marquee and video of game playing as a front end. :o Inspired me to get off my butt and get my cabinet built. I'll try to get back up there to get the name, but I think a company might have already started marketting something like MAME.
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That is an Ultracade. They use their own emulator and operating system, and if I remember correctly they already went out of business.
I think they may have been more successful with cheaper 19" cabinets with better joysticks rather than the expensive 27" cabinets with crap joysticks that I kept seeing.
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That is an Ultracade. They use their own emulator and operating system, and if I remember correctly they already went out of business.
I think they may have been more successful with cheaper 19" cabinets with better joysticks rather than the expensive 27" cabinets with crap joysticks that I kept seeing.
Out of business once, but they're back in now: http://ultracade.com/
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Yea that's the company, but the cabinet they had running was about 6'6'' tall. The monitor and stand were seperate from the CP and it's stand (about 1' - 1.5' apart). The monitor looked about 36" (may have been 27") and speakers on the side. :o Looked cool.
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Looks like I was mistaken about a couple things about Ultracade. First is that they are back in business, second is that they don't appear to make cabinets at all, just kits. So it is the distributors that are outfitting the things with el cheapo joysticks and too large of screens.
I mean, come on. When installing a kit that costs a couple grand, it would make sense to use good joysticks rather than whatever $8.99 special happs has at the time.
The one I get to play regularly has those really loose happ ones that have larger diagonals than primary directions. Not sure what model, but I have a pair of them at home that I bought new and replaced with used Wico sticks nearly immediately because they were so craptastic. At least the microswitches from them came in handy, and I saved the handles, maybe I can use them to clean up a pair of nasty looking sticks sometime in the future.
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Do you think some one would come after me, if i put one of my cabs at school and used to raise money?
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Do you think some one would come after me, if i put one of my cabs at school and used to raise money?
I wouldn't do it. I don't like prison (smells bad) and lawsuits are boring and expensive. Only put properly licenced games on it. Then you KNOW you are in the clear. Guessing with this stuff isn't good.
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Do you think some one would come after me, if i put one of my cabs at school and used to raise money?
Most folks are just against using mame for any profit whatsoever, even if it does benefit some high school (college?) group.
I think once people start using it that way, then it could soon turn from
"We need to raise money for Relay for Life" to "We need to raise money for the party tomorrow night". ;)
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My idea for this was to have it be free play, but put a "donations" box on the side of the cab (or just use the coin door)... therefore you're not charging anything for play... just for upkeep, or in your case, high school money.
:)
Idunno, it might work.
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So do we have a tally list so far?
again....
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wasn't this sticky for awhile?
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How about these Namco/Atari/Activision games all in a single controller?
http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/238140.asp (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/238140.asp)
http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/226888.asp (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/226888.asp)
http://www.t-molding.com/cart/customer/product.php?productid=35&cat=&page= (http://www.t-molding.com/cart/customer/product.php?productid=35&cat=&page=)
Or the Namco Museum titles for various consoles, such as:
http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/127089.asp (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/127089.asp)
http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/134627.asp (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/134627.asp)
I believe these are all emulator based, but I'm not positive.
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I don't think they are. Anyway, they wouldn't be emulated arcade versions, they would be emulated console versions so they wouldn't count as roms you could use with mame.
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I don't think they are. Anyway, they wouldn't be emulated arcade versions, they would be emulated console versions so they wouldn't count as roms you could use with mame.
I thought a lot of the collections mentioned didn't use the auctual roms. They use some variation of them. Especially the games on a stick collections. Those are awefull and many are no where near the real rom.
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Well, my atari collection is the actual games. They even show the volcano buttons on screen and they blink.
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My idea for this was to have it be free play, but put a "donations" box on the side of the cab (or just use the coin door)... therefore you're not charging anything for play... just for upkeep, or in your case, high school money.
:)
Idunno, it might work.
IMO, I always thought of asking for donations for something completely personal and non-life saving kinda tacky. It's like all these personal websites I see with pictures of the webmaster's cat that have the gall to ask for donations (complete with the guilt-inducing text).
I'm not saying that donations are inappropriate for free public services and websites that offer free in depth information and/or entertainment (libraries, museums, this site, et. al.), but when you're hinting at friends to throw down some money to play videogames (whether it be on your PS2 or an arcade machine you spent money and time making), it may get some odd and/or rather rude glances.
Of course, you can leave the game to accept credits and have a bucket of quaters nearby - but hidden. Wait until someone asks before whipping it out. You may be surprised at how many people instinctively reach in their pockets. Heh heh heh!
*** As for the answer to the number of legal roms..
I still think it's just 3. Even if you purchase a disc with legal ROMs, it usually includes wacky licencing agreements and whatnot. And if someone makes a copy of said disc, those ROMs are no longer legal. And everything, save the three exceptions, all falls under some crazy gray areas in legality, leaving you with strict rules on what you can and can't do with the software. It's like when you purchase "Windows whatever" and how you're only allowed to install it on one computer. Even though you physically bought the disc, there's only so much you can actually do with it while remaining in agreement with the terms and conditions we all usually skip over when installing (i.e you can't legally copy it onto another computer you own unless you cough up more dough).
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No, there is more than 3. There are 3 FREE legal ones, but you can purchase 1) Capcom roms from Hanaho 2) Ultracade 3) Atari Anniversay/Hits, Williams Classics/Hits, and Midway Greatest Hits.
However, you might be legally entitled to only play 2 and 3 with the emulator supplied by them.
Dave_K said
Atari Anniversay/Hits, Williams Classics/Hits, and Midway Greatest Hits all use original roms with an emulator made by Digital Eclipse.
I looked it up, that is true.
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You're right -- but I was just implying the ones that are basically always legal (which does mean free). Because theoretically all ROMs would be legal if you pay the copyright owners for it in some form (if actually possible).
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Personally, i don't care about de legal issue stuff!
It's funnier when it's underground and Illegal! ;D
Is there anyone who only plays legal roms! C'mon...
Up with the "Undergound Scene"! :)
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The less said the less trouble we can get into. ;)
We don't want videogame companies suing 12 year olds like the RIAA is. :)