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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: DrewKaree on September 28, 2006, 05:59:09 pm
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The lady who lives next door to us evidently is under the assumption that if you don't scream at the top of your lungs at your children at least four times a day so that neighbors TWO HOUSES AWAY can hear you, then they won't grow up right or listen or whatever other dumbass reason she has.
Yesterday, she was taken to the hospital. Heart problems.
Add to this the fact that she must run about (and I'm NOT kidding) 280 lbs and she's only about 5'6".
Today, she's home.
Natch, I get to listen to her yelling at her daughter - AGAIN.
This woman has the gall to yell her that "IT'S BECAUSE OF ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- LIKE THIS THAT YOU ALMOST KILLED ME YESTERDAY!".
What kind of failure at life do you have to be to think solving a problem or making your kids do what you want them to do can be accomplished by laying a guilt trip like THAT on your kids? :angry:
This is quite loaded, but please tell me none of you are as retarded as this woman and that you think she's reprehensible for saying something like that to her KIDS!
:badmood:
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It's bad, but I've seen worse. Much, much, much worse.
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so that neighbors TWO HOUSES AWAY can hear you
I'm sorry Drew, but just because they're called mobile homes it doesn't make them houses.
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so that neighbors TWO HOUSES AWAY can hear you
I'm sorry Drew, but just because they're called mobile homes it doesn't make them houses.
;D
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It sounds like you're describing my childhood. ;D
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It sounds like you're describing my childhood. ;D
Me too and I turned out just fine, just fine jstfmne jsushf, ,[
midSPg}hmSNap;a]ffpm,g,b]Sgs]]anfb :dizzy:
ARCADIAC!
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Women like that are why public flogging should be re-instated in the US. Seriously, I hope those kids have a father who helps balance out the mother's insanity. My ex can get a bit whacked sometimes (but nothing like that woman), but if she was that bad, I'd be filing for sole custody in a heartbeat.
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Evolution used to take care of these type of people but now damn science just keeps saving them....
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Evolution used to take care of these type of people but now damn science just keeps saving them....
Problem is that stupid people breed faster. I bet dartful has like 20 kids.
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I don't do that. But my kids are pains in the ass. Maybe I'll try that.
-J
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Problem is that stupid people breed faster. I bet dartful has like 20 kids.
My children's intelligence is in your hands.
Or at least one of my kids.
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The worst is when you're running an activity for kids and one of the parents starts doing things like that to their kid in the middle of it. I've had parents yell some of the worst things at their kids during baseball games. A couple of times I've had to basically root my feet to the ground to prevent walking over and kicking the crap out of a parent. That day one of my players showed up with a huge black eye, limping, and barely able to lift an arm I had to ask a couple fathers to physically make sure I didn't kill the kid's father. The kid couldn't even swing his bat.
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Well no damn wonder my kid won't listen to me.
Thanks for the tips Drew!
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That's post 2004 for Fredster.
Bush won!
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If the kids are relatively young, you might want to call children's services or whatever.
If they're teenagers, you're far too late.
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Hers is the old, "I can't be bothered to head off trouble before it arrives, so I'll wait until it does then blow my to quickly so I can get back to Springer" approach to parenting.
Too bad for her kids, but I guess the world needs ditchdiggers too.
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She's got 3 kids. There are two teenagers, and one who's the spoiled brat. He's the little bastard type who - check THIS out - looks out the window when I pull up, and hides his hand behind the curtain so mom can't see him, and flips me the bird. I've already spoken to her about him, she told him "knock it off". That's it. Now I just lean on the horn when he's doing it. Dunno why, as it's evident mom won't do a darned thing to him. I've ratted him out when I've SEEN him actively getting his sister in trouble, and it's almost as if I said the magic word that makes her go calm.
Dad divorced her a while ago. Oddly enough, he lives 2 houses away from my parents. He's a BIGGER loser than SHE is. Too much stuff to go into, but there's a reason the kids AREN'T living with him ::)
She treats the two older kids like complete dirt. I've actually called child services WHILE she was in the middle of a tirade (they usually go on for 10-15 minutes) and let them listen to how she acts. They tell me there's not a whole lot they can do if all she's doing is yelling at them.
so that neighbors TWO HOUSES AWAY can hear you
I'm sorry Drew, but just because they're called mobile homes it doesn't make them houses.
Once you take the wheels off, they're no longer mobile. All that's left are "homes". I win ;D
I don't do that. But my kids are pains in the ass. Maybe I'll try that.
-J
I've got yer address, Jersey boy....don't make me pull this car over and...now look what you've done to me!
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I don't need to yell at my kids; I find waving the gun around works just fine. ;D
(Paraphrased from Dennis Leary)
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Growing up my dad had a leather belt he would spank us with if we did something really bad, he called the belt the hearing aid because it got us to listen to him. I think he only used it a couple of times, but it became kind of a standard threat to get us to behave.
A few years ago I found a journal I did sometime around first grade. Once a week we would draw a picture and write a sentence or two about anything we wanted. Most of them were about standard kid stuff, playing with friends, talking about my pets, etc. but one of the pictures was stick figures of my dad rearing back with a belt with a word bubble saying "Rawr!!" and me cowering below him saying "Help me!!", the sentence I wrote was something like "I don't like getting hit with the belt". Child services would all over that now a days, but back then getting spanked was pretty common. Looking back, I don't even remember the spankings being that horrible, but that drawing sure was funny to find.
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You teacher probably called your dad to ask for tips on getting the best swing...
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My brother made a similar picture in school in the late 80s. He was probably 5-6 years old. Mom with a giant metal spoon, him cowering. The school did call us all in and we had all these tense meetings about it. I was an early teen at the time.
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I went to a Catholic school. I got beat at home AND at school. :dizzy:
My dad would often yell at us, but not things like that. I try not to do that to my son but I still catch myself doing it sometimes. I usually apologize later for yelling and we talk about it calmly and it works out pretty well. He is a good kid. Much better than I was.
It is kinda weird how you sometimes act just like your parents when you are really trying not to. It it like they are channeling through you. ---daisies---!
J_K_M_A_N
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So....how many of you good folks who had some tough discipline and an occasional butt-tanning went to school and shot your principal and/or classmates? (sorry, was that too intense for EE?)
But yeah, I hate screamers too. My ex would do that with the kids. It wasn't long before the message got lost in the volume and they just tuned her out. Kids need boundaries today, but they are getting harder and harder to put in place. About the only option a parent has is screaming it seems, and you see how well that works.
And no, I'm not advocating beating the snot out of your kid. Just good parenting that might include an occasional display of who's really in charge of a situation.
Drew, didn't your mom tell you not to let that little bully rile you up? You're just playing into his evil little bird launchers ;D
RandyT
*edit* typos
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I remember the 3 spankings that my dad gave me. Usually my mom would hand out the enforcement. If it was a situation of extreme seriousness...She pulled out the nuke and my dad would step in. It was the kind of thing that would make your innards turn to jelly to think about. Usually my dads hand (no paddle, or belt or switch, just a bare hand) would swell to about 14 times normal size. It was usually about 4 or 5 smacks on the butt. But, the pain would travel straight from the butt receptors all the way through the body. This was usually accompanied with a sonic boom as well. Lets just say, the fear of this kept my brother and I out of trouble... Well usually... Well, lets just say we learned how not to get caught.
The point is, I think there is a place in discipline for spankings. It used to be acceptable to get swats from the principal. (Something I know nothing about ;) ). But there was a limit to what I would do or how I would act at school. I also knew that there was no room for disrespect to a teacher. This would result in the punishment at school and the a follow up at home. Today's kids know that the worst that will happen is that they will be SPOKEN to STRONGLY, but not yelled at at school and usually a yell at home. There are NO consequences to their actions. Unfortunately we are the generation of kids that when they were growing up said "I will never spank MY kids" and actually stuck to it.
I am sorry, but sometimes a kid will get so wrapped up in themselves that the only way to wake em up is a good swap on the butt. There is a good reason why God Padded the butt. You can spank it and it will hurt for a little while, but no damage is done.
A parrent should never hit a kid in anger. When I say hit I am referring to more than the swat on the rear. I am saying HIT as to inflict damage. There is no parenting in breaking a kid. It does nothing but break their self esteem and their spirit and their heart. Chad, I think it is good that you didn't plow into that guy because you would be in jail, not the jacka$$ that did the REAL damage. But it might be a good idea to confront him with a LOT of other dads accompanying you. Perhaps an ultimatum...Do it again and all of us will be paying you a visit. Or give a call to child protective services.
How can hitting a kid in the eye be teaching a lesson. Ghaw. :angry:
I am not the greatest dad. I do yell at times. Not like your friend over there Drew. I try to build my kids up, not tear them down. There is too many negitives already in the world, they do not need it from the one place that is supposed to be safe.
Sadly, though not true, that kid somehow is going to feel responsible if that lady does in fact end up dying. >:(
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The point is, I think there is a place in discipline for spankings.
I don't.
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Depends on the kid. I didn't really need them (though I still got more than my share).
My brother needed them. He just didn't listen or learn.
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The point is, I think there is a place in discipline for spankings.
I don't.
I do.
And I've got two children that are so well behaved that they get complimented by strangers to prove it's effectiveness. Haven't had to spank either of them in years, but it was an effective tool when they were too young to reason with.
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I'll see your two kids and raise you the three kids from Drew's original post.
My wife has never been spanked (not by her parents anyway ;) ). She's never been in trouble in her life. When she talks about breaking rules she talks about getting home half an hour after curfew one or two times. It's hillarious. My family was exactly the opposite and once we hit teenage years, one-by-one, we rebelled big time. I've got three high-school drop out siblings, one in rehab, another that is all cleaned up, but was heavily into drugs. All kinds of problems.
In fact, neither your story, nor mine proves anything. They're isolated incidents. I think that spanking is harmful, but that your love for your kids, and the time and devotion you give them, probably outweighs the damage spanking has done and you've got good kids in spite of it. I'd guess that you'd say that my parents (as well as Drew's neighbor) needed to add some love and quality time and devotion to their kids instead of relying exclusively on the coporal punishment.
But try to find some statistical evidence that parents, in general, who think spanking is okay have better behaved kids than those who think its wrong and you won't find it. You will find exactly the opposite.
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Three kids, never spanked them, never will. I get compliments on how well behaved they are on a regular basis.
People shouldn't confuse lack of spanking with a lack of discipline. My kids face consequences if they misbehave, but they don't get smacked.
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Don't get me wrong. I don't think kids shouldn't be punished. I think they should have toys confiscated, priviledges revoked, be put in time-outs, etc. I just don't think that using the physical advantage you have over your kids is acceptable. I cannot think of a reason why it's not okay for a man to hit a woman, but it's okay for an adult to hit a child, when the size and strength disparity is all the more pronounced. I think it also teaches children that having a physical advantage over another person gives the stronger a legitimate authority to exert their will over the weaker.
I think of those drawings that Chad and AtomSmasher describe and we're talking about feelings of genuine fear and helplessness. And how could you not feel that way as a child. Adults are ginormous. Think of how helpless a kid feels when he's in 5th grade getting bullied by a sixth grader who's only maybe 20% bigger than him and then think of how they feel when they get violence or the threat of violence, not only from someone who is 500% bigger than them but who also is that little kid's greatest protector and security.
I just think it ain't right, it gives unhealthy, mixed messages, and that any possible good that can come of it can be accomplished in ways that don't carry with them the negative baggage that corporal punishment does.
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I just don't think that using the physical advantage you have over your kids is acceptable. I cannot think of a reason why it's not okay for a man to hit a woman, but it's okay for an adult to hit a child, when the size and strength disparity is all the more pronounced. I think it also teaches children that having a physical advantage over another person gives the stronger a legitimate authority to exert their will over the weaker.
Now I think you might be getting spanking confused with hitting. I don't think anyone on here is going to tell you it is right to hit a child. I am quite sure that there are varying degrees of force that some people may use in there spankings, and I am sure that some of them cross that fine line into abuse. My parents spanked us, but 20 minutes later you could pull my pants down and not find a mark on me. They certainly tried many other forms of punishment before spanking. When they had to, though, they would do it, and I would learn my lesson in the end (pun intended).
I don't think there is anything wrong with spanking if you aren't crossing the line. I also think it is a little ridiculous to compare spanking a kid to hitting a woman. When you hit someone you do it hard, usually just about as hard as you can. I think most parents that spanked their kids would probably use about 5% of their total force.
To be fair, though, my daughter is 8 months old and I couldn't even begin to fathom spanking her.
--edit--
That 5% is just a ridiculous estimate since there is absolutely no way to quantify that, but you get the point. ;D
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Three kids, never spanked them, never will. I get compliments on how well behaved they are on a regular basis.
Let's say you have a 5 year old who runs into the main street. Often. Chasing balls, not paying attention, once in a while just to hear the screech of tires. Does it after being yelled at, being grounded, being talked to, knows it's wrong, knows it will get him killed. Still does it. Thinks it is funny. I have known kids like that.
What do you do?
Some kids respond to nothing else. Sometimes the result is just more important than communication.
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The point is, I think there is a place in discipline for spankings.
I don't.
Dear Santa Claus,
Please bring shmokes's another child. One of those who, at 5 years old, kicks strangers and hits him, calls him names and tells him "I hate you, Daddy" in public, like many I have personally witnessed. I don't want him to suffer, only to have a point of reference. You can take him back when he gets one.
Thank you,
RandyT
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Whatever you as a parent think is appropriate of course, including spanking. I'm not going to try to tell someone they shouldn't spank -- but I've never found it necessary with all the other tools I have available to me as a parent. I have heard of situations where nothing else works, and if the only way you have to get through to a child is to spank then by all means do what you have to do... I do firmly believe people spank way too often and too easily as a first resort instead of a last resort, but I don't advocate banning spanking.
I don't believe I will ever spank my children. In ten years of parenting so far it has not been necessary.
--- saint
Three kids, never spanked them, never will. I get compliments on how well behaved they are on a regular basis.
Let's say you have a 5 year old who runs into the main street. Often. Chasing balls, not paying attention, once in a while just to hear the screech of tires. Does it after being yelled at, being grounded, being talked to, knows it's wrong, knows it will get him killed. Still does it. Thinks it is funny. I have known kids like that.
What do you do?
Some kids respond to nothing else. Sometimes the result is just more important than communication.
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If I walked in on my son sexually molesting my daughter or in the process of cutting the throat of the nieghbor's toddler as a sacrifice to a pagan god, I would beat the living ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of him.
Painting me into a more extreme position than the one I am actually presenting, or in Randy's case just being a drama queen in general, is a convenient, but not very constructive debate tactic.
A kid that finds himself alone in his room (or his parent's room if his is too much fun) for an hour every time he runs into the street is going to learn just as well or better, 99 times out of 100, than a kid that gets swatted by his parent.
And spanking is hitting. It's assinine to suggest otherwise. Hitting is a generalized term that encompasses spanking, just as it encompasses slapping, punching, judo chopping :) , running into something with your car and striking a baseball with a bat. Spanking is generally less severe than slapping (probably for no reason other than the butt has more padding and is sometimes separated from the hand/wooden spoon/willow/HotwheelsTM bendy racetrack segment/belt/spatula by up to three layers of fabric), which is generally less severe than punching, which is less severe than running someone over with your car. But you've gotta be crazy to say that spanking isn't hitting when doing the exact same thing to the face or a countertop would clearly qualify as hitting someone in the face or hitting a countertop with your hand.
If you have to redefine the verb "hit" to make you feel better about your actions you REALLY should reconsider whether or not you should be spanking your kids. ;D
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Also consider, when deciding whether spanking is hitting, that the purpose of spanking is to inflict pain. You don't want to inflict permanent damage, and you apparently want the mark to be one that will disappear within 20 minutes, but there's no point to it if pain is not inflicted. Spanking without pain would be like grounding your kid from riding bikes when he doesn't own a bike or know anybody who does. It's only a punishment if it hurts.
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I never said it didn't hurt. When you are kid most things like that are gonna hurt. My point was that they did it hard enough to make a point, but not hard enough to do much else (like cause permanent damage or leave a bruise).
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Also consider, when deciding whether spanking is hitting, that the purpose of spanking is to inflict pain. You don't want to inflict permanent damage, and you apparently want the mark to be one that will disappear within 20 minutes, but there's no point to it if pain is not inflicted. Spanking without pain would be like grounding your kid from riding bikes when he doesn't own a bike or know anybody who does. It's only a punishment if it hurts.
You should revisit stuff like this when you have more experience. Spanking, on many kids, has a far stronger emotional pain than physical pain. It's all individual. Some kids won't listen unless they think they're going to get their ass tanned. Other kids will cry if you whack them lightly in the back of the head. It's all about how it is received.
As someone who got spanked a lot as a kid I don't spank my kids much at all. I've pretty much only done it when their safety was at risk, like when my son decided it was a good idea to pull pots from the stovetop. Repeatedly, maybe 7-8 times. I haven't ever done anything like the stuff I got pretty often as a kid.
Those beatings that do leave marks, the ones you mention, aren't all that painful after a while. The kid just stops caring much about it. It's gonna happen, you're gonna have a black eye or bruised ribs, and they'll go away. Not that those are the types kids should ever get but I can tell you from experience that aside from the actual moment the pain isn't as much as people would think. At least not in the way people think.
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Chad, that's just another position of convenience. I'm automatically wrong because I only have one two-month old baby.
Drew's neighbor has more experience than me. The ladies who drowned their kids, the one in the bathtub, the other by pushing the car into the lake, have far more experience than me. There are millions of Americans who don't spank their kids ever. This isn't some wacky, unheard of position that I'm bound to renounce once I understand the realities of parenting. And if I did renounce it, it wouldn't be any more or less valid.
FWIW, I have fourteen siblings (I'm number 9), the yougest of which are currently 10 and 12. I've seen a lot of parenting. I may not be right, but what makes spanking, or name-calling, or grounding, or rewarding, or reasoning, or any other behavior modification tactic good or bad isn't whether I grow up and decide to use it. I don't mean to say that my childhood qualifies me as an expert in parenting, but I also see no reason to think that the idea of never spanking your kids is some kind of impossible fantasy that only a person who's never raised his own kids could possibly dream up. Millions of people do it. Everywhere. And their kids seem to turn out at least as well-balanced as the kids who get spanked, and probably quite a bit better than most kids who get the severe stuff.
Also, for the record, I figured I had already made clear that it's the emotional damage that concerns me with spanking. The discussion about pain was meant mainly for the side-argument about whether spanking and hitting are two different things.
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Chad, that's just another position of convenience. I'm automatically wrong because I only have one two-month old baby.
Sigh. I didn't say you're wrong. I am saying that I have seen many situations where your comments didn't work given the parties involved. They are too narrow, IMO.
You are way too quick to find a reason to disqualify a person's comments entirely if they disagree with your opinions.
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You are way too quick to find a reason to disqualify a person's comments entirely if they disagree with your opinions.
That's probably true.
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You are way too quick to find a reason to disqualify a person's comments entirely if they disagree with your opinions.
That's definitely true.
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Gimme a break. I'm no doubt overly argumentative, but we're talking about Chad -- someone who automatically disagrees with everything I say even when I'm agreeing with the last thing he said. You learn how to deal with certain people and it becomes habitual. I don't think many here would describe Chad "the yardstick by which people are measured" Tower as someone who is particularly accepting of opinions he does not share. Some might even describe his as dismissive, hard headed and arrogant. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't mind using those terms to describe himself.
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shmokes,
Serious question: With that many siblings, how was discipline administered in your household? And by whom? If you were number 9, by time you got to an age where you could start analyzing parenting methods, there must have been an awful lot of nearly adult children (with nearly adult responsibilities) around your household.
I dare suggest, much of what you experienced growing up would be considered a bit alien to those who might come from the more common smaller families.
Just a thought.
RandyT
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shmokes,
Serious question: With that many siblings, how was discipline administered in your household? And by whom? If you were number 9, by time you got to an age where you could start analyzing parenting methods, there must have been an awful lot of nearly adult children (with nearly adult responsibilities) around your household.
I dare suggest, much of what you experienced growing up would be considered a bit alien to those who might come from the more common smaller families.
Just a thought.
RandyT
;D I think there's probably some truth to that. I had probably changed more diapers by the time I was 15 than most people change in their entire lives. I was washing poopy diapers out in the toilet when I was five years old (my mom only used disposable diapers on kids she babysat, and they provided their own diapers).
As for discipline, that was all my mom, who is pretty nutso. As a kid, I would see my parents and older siblings in shouting matches and I would be very angry at my siblings, not understanding what any of it was about, but only understanding that my brother or sister wasn't doing what was right. As a kid, it doesn't seem weird or unfair that you get smacked about. It's unpleasant, but that's just the way it is and why would you think it would be any different for any other kid? The older I got the more I realized how ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up my parents were (mainly just my mom, but my dad wouldn't stand up to her). One day, just after I turned fifteen, it occurred to me that I was physically stronger than my mom. That day she lost the only control she had ever developed over me.
That incident, which I've kind of glossed over, is one of the defining points in the development of my ideas about parenting. When it occurred to me that I was no longer afraid of my mom, she had absolutely no control over me (except when she wouldn't sign for my drivers license until I cut my hair -- so I cut it, got a drivers license, and grew it back :) ). Once your kids become teenagers, corporal punishment doesn't fly unless you're ready to get serious with the wrenches and cigarette burns, etc.. The only way you can keep your kids from doing things that they want to do is by having a relationship where they respect you and trust you so much that the thought of disappointing you is worse than the thought of missing out on whatever it is you don't want them to do. And I think that spanking, at any time, works against the development of this kind of relationship.
Also, keep in mind that 15 sounds like more than it is. At any given time there was never more than ten or eleven kids living in the house because the oldest had turned eighteen and left or the youngest hadn't been born. Also, three were adopted. So my mom and dad only personally sired twelve of us :)
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I'll agree that spanking shouldn't be the only form of discipline used on a child, but my experiences showed me that, at least at a certain age (say 2 1/2 to 5-6), it was a very effective one when other options had been exhausted. There's a certain age of child when reasoning just does not work-they don't have the mental faculties to participate fully in it.
My personal experience has been that the people I personally know who have never spanked their child have more overall discipline problems than those who used spanking sparingly as a discipline tool. On the flip side, those who over-used spanking find themselves in the same position as those who didn't use it at all.
I've never met a parent who said "Man, I regret those five times I spanked Billy when he was growing up" and I've met alot of parents who say they wish they had when the kids were young enough for it to have done some good. I've also met those who say that they are glad they didn't spank at all, though they are in the minority from my experience. I've also met alot of parents who say they wish they had spanked less, but those are the ones who tended to use it as the main tool, rather than as a final resort.
If something else is working for you, then keep doing it, just sharing my experiences and, by proxy, the experiences of the parents I know personally.
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One day, just after I turned fifteen, it occurred to me that I was physically stronger than my mom. That day she lost the only control she had ever developed over me.
Ha. I remember that. Probably 12 for me... my mother just whaling on me one day and me standing there not even moving. Changed the whole relationship.
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Just remember that sending them to prison to teach them a lesson is not a good idea: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/821545
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Well, clearly he didn't learn not to be mouthy.
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but it was an effective tool when they were too young to reason with.
Thats the key. Reasoning only works if the child is old enough to understand it. My 3 year old still has cause and effect issues - doesn't rationalize that running into the street will get him squished.
So, he gets a quick swat on the behind when he does so.
He can connect a sore bottom to running into the street. Pavlov would be proud.
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Clearly, there will never be a consensus on the best way to handle poorly behaved kids. People are as different as snowflakes (sometimes without the snow part) and children are just little people. What works with one, may not have a chance in hell of working on another. The disturbing thing is that the ones who might need some physical "behavior modification" the most, are now not receiving it. And because of this, will likely have no respect for figures of authority (like police, teachers, their boss, etc., ) You know, all the people that supposedly are crucial for the running of a civilized society and those your child will depend on to be successful.
The answer of late is to jack these kids up on drugs to keep them under control, so we can add habitual drug use to the list of this person's adult problems.
Everything that happens to you as a child is training for what will happen to you as an adult. Instilling the values of absolute passivity into your child might make him a scholar and a gentleman. On the other hand it might make him "food" for those who are not.
Balance is the key.
RandyT
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Heh. My kids are anything but passive. Purple belts in karate (the two older ones) and anything but shy about asking for what they want.
Everything that happens to you as a child is training for what will happen to you as an adult. Instilling the values of absolute passivity into your child might make him a scholar and a gentleman. On the other hand it might make him "food" for those who are not.
Balance is the key.
RandyT
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When I was a kid, I got spankings for bad grades in school. They never had any effect on me - as in I still got bad grades. It was a worthwhile trade-off to get 6 weeks of no homework for 1 minute of butt whoopins. What my parents should have realized was that I was smart enough to realize grades don't mean ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- until high school. I should have been rewarded for being so clever. ;D
Side note: Once I got into High school, I graduated with a 4.1 GPA. :laugh2:
Another funny butt whoopin story:
One time when I was either 5 or 6, I was told I was gonna get a butt spanking. I went to my room and put on a pair of sweat pants. I then put a book in there on my butt, along with the entire contents of one of my clothes drawers. I came out with a totally straight face, and said I was ready. After my dad nearly choked to death from a laughing fit, I got a bare butt spanking for my efforts. Geeze, you think he would have given me some credit for creativity.
Some children (as in my case also) will go out of their way to get spankings because it is the only form of attention they get from their parents. My Aunt beats and screams at her kids on a regular basis, but she ignores them other than to yell or hit.
Final assesment from my point of view, spankings do not work as a singular form of punishment, and they are not needed for parents who are actively involved in their childrens everyday lives.So, spankings do not work.
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So, spankings do not work.
Before anyone jumps on this, I think what he really means is that spanking is unnecessary. I think that spanking can be effective in some cases. But, like Shardian, I think it's unecessary because better alternatives are available.
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I think it's unecessary because better alternatives are available.
I'm open to suggestions. Since you obviously know everything there is to be said on the matter, would you care to enlighten us? How d'you handle your kids?
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Generally speaking, first I spank her. And if that doesn't work, I shake her.
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Generally speaking, first I spank her. And if that doesn't work, I shake her.
Wait, are we talking about wives or kids now? ;)
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He's the little bastard type who - check THIS out - looks out the window when I pull up, and hides his hand behind the curtain so mom can't see him, and flips me the bird. I've already spoken to her about him, she told him "knock it off". That's it. Now I just lean on the horn when he's doing it.
This scenario cracks me the f' up for some reason. Sounds so "Raising Arizona"... :laugh2:
Maybe the kid reads your postings on Pn'R? :laugh:
mrC
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FWIW I'm against adults spanking kids.
I've met too many wackos who claimed it never did them any harm.
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I'd like to think I wouldn't hit a child, but I've seen kids that if they were mine they'd be in a hospital. All kids are different and I'm going to assume parents are the best judge at what their kids need.
With all these school shootings I think if parents are doing something to control their kids we should leave them alone.
DCF should be going after parents who don't control their kids at all.
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He's the little bastard type who - check THIS out - looks out the window when I pull up, and hides his hand behind the curtain so mom can't see him, and flips me the bird. I've already spoken to her about him, she told him "knock it off". That's it. Now I just lean on the horn when he's doing it.
This scenario cracks me the f' up for some reason. Sounds so "Raising Arizona"... :laugh2:
Maybe the kid reads your postings on Pn'R? :laugh:
mrC
I keep getting the feeling his middle name is "Dexter". ;D
He's a little bastard who has learned that mom is unwilling to do something that might make him "hate" her. He was the last kid, the one she had before splitting with LoserDad, but too young to know LoserDad. The other two kids know what an ass LoserDad is, and also how NutsMom is. NutsMom lavishes all kinds of attention on the youngest, trying to "save" him. Meanwhile, she's training him to manipulate situations to get himself out of trouble, get his wishes met, etc. She's training him to undoubtedly face serious problems in life when it becomes apparent that nobody else cares how his mom dealt with him and that they expect far more from this little asshat and WILL deal out consequences for his prickitude.
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Disclaimer: I don't have kids of my own, however, both myself and my fiance' have spent loads of time in positions of authority over children (Counselors, etc), as well as in positions that have allowed us to observe various methods of parental interaction/discipline, and the subsequent consequences of those interactions with the children (when the parent is not around).
From both our experiences, it was easy to conclude that the children of parents who did *not* use spanking/corporal punishment were usually easier to deal with and generally more well behaved. If the parent tends to use a beating as an extreme measure of control, that leaves everyone else who will ever interact with that child at a disadvantage, since (obviously) they as teacher, family member, aquaintence, cannot haul off and belt the child if they're doing something really wrong.
We both feel that the only thing spanking does is teach a child that they need to behave *just* well enough to avoid being spanked. It creates a confrontational atmosphere, rather than a solutions-based one. It does not impart on them them a true understanding of the consequences of their behavior, other than that they can be hit for something that is "wrong". How does this prepare them against making wrongful decisions later in life? A Boss won't hit them if they are doing wrong, etc...
There are two couples in our lives (a friend of ours and his wife, and my fiance's brother and his wife), both have two children and neither couple spank their kids. They've used positive reinforcement from their first interactions with them, for even the simplest, most trivial things. So, when it comes to punishment time, there is less of a need to ramp up the threat. As soon as the kids sense a change in the parents demeanor, they know it's serious. They ask the kids a LOT of questions, and help them to come to their own conclusions about behavior.
They never say, "NO!" or "Don't" or "Stop that!"...instead saying things like, "What should you be doing instead?", or "If you throw that again, we'll have you donate it to someone who will take care of it", and when the kid throws it again, they've taken a trip down to the Salvation Army and had the kid walk up to the counter and donate the toy themselves. Tears and all.
My in-laws and their kids stayed with me and my fiance' for 12 days, about a month or so ago, and I have to say that we were "retrained", in a sense, on how to speak positively. It was reeeeeeeeeally difficult to remember to do, but once we got the hang of it you could just sense how much it improved almost every situation. It makes the kids less defensive, and more apt to listen and understand a given situation. Most importantly, when the kids were left only with "Unca' Daze" (Me=Uncle Dave) and Auntie Rae, we adults had the EXACT SAME tools for punishment that their mom and dad have when they're alone with the kids. Which was refreshing. I didn't have to worry that they'd misbehave to the extent that I would need to "spank" them, but couldn't...it never, ever comes to that. There are so many other tools available, and bringing the child into a better understanding of their own behavior and the consequences of that behavior through a more positive approach...seems to stick with them more effectively.
I will be using the methods I've learned from both these couples, should we ever decide to have children of our own.
I think it's unecessary because better alternatives are available.
I'm open to suggestions. Since you obviously know everything there is to be said on the matter, would you care to enlighten us? How d'you handle your kids?
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I just don't think that using the physical advantage you have over your kids is acceptable. I cannot think of a reason why it's not okay for a man to hit a woman, but it's okay for an adult to hit a child, when the size and strength disparity is all the more pronounced. I think it also teaches children that having a physical advantage over another person gives the stronger a legitimate authority to exert their will over the weaker.
I just think it ain't right, it gives unhealthy, mixed messages, and that any possible good that can come of it can be accomplished in ways that don't carry with them the negative baggage that corporal punishment does.
You're confusing abuse with discipline. You're using a ridgid definition of spanking to fit it into a definition by which spanking indeed IS NOT acceptable.
Reading YOUR definition above of "using your physical advantage over a child", "giving unhealthy mixed messages", and your assertion that "any possible good" can be accomplished in other ways leads me to believe you quite simply stated this out of either anger or resurfacing of old feelings about how you felt when getting spanked. It sounds as if your family either LED with the spankings OR used it far more quickly due to the size of your family.
I believe this, because I cannot fathom how you can state what you did, then turn around and claim THIS:
I think that spanking can be effective in some cases.
The first quote from you paints quite a stark black/white picture.
I'm guessing the second quote demonstrates that even you can see the efficacy of such a disciplinary method.
The words this woman used when talking with her children, IMO, MOST DEFINITELY were far more damaging than a spanking. Used improperly, ANY disciplinary method or measure can be taken to extremes and lead someone to believe "it should NEVER be done". Painting such an extreme picture of such methods closes off the possibility of using something that may be the only thing that will work, as well as lead to the potential that such a method STILL might end up being used, and if so, will most likely be used in anger - anger that a child has caused you to resort to a method you may have mentally swore NEVER to use.
To equate spanking as a disciplinary method with hitting your child because of physical advantage is simply foolish. If that helps you sleep at night, I hope you're now suffering sleepless nights wondering how you could have ever stated that spanking could be effective in ANY case after equating it with what can reasonably be described as "abuse" - a DEFINITE difference in what we're talking about.
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If the parent tends to use a beating as an extreme measure of control, that leaves everyone else who will ever interact with that child at a disadvantage, since (obviously) they as teacher, family member, aquaintence, cannot haul off and belt the child if they're doing something really wrong.
I find the extreme is always used when talking about spanking. Does NO ONE know of a person who doesn't "beat" their kids? I'd tell you that you do - ME - but this is about as "personal" as it gets with you knowing me. I'd also venture a guess that there are many here who DON'T "give their kids a beating".
"belt", "beat", "haul off", "whack", "smack", "pound", "whale"..... the term is "spank".
spank (spăngk) pronunciation
v., spanked, spank
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That sounds about right. I have had occasions to spank my older son. Rare, but they happened, with an open hand and not even enough to leave a mark. But he got the point and it was more effective than the 50 previous times we yelled at him for the same thing, put him on timeout, took things away, etc. And I can truthfully say it hurt me 25x more than it did him when I did it. I had to stop him from grabbing boiling pots and nothing else had worked.
What my brother and I got were beatings. Sometimes not so bad, sometimes pretty bad. I suspect that the "not so bad" line migrated towards the "pretty bad" line after a while and I just don't remember it happening.
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Drew, you seem to be reading and responding to one line at a time of my posts rather than taking them as a whole. My first post didn't paint a black-and-white definition of spanking. It talks about hitting in general and specifically says that spanking is generally less severe than slapping, slapping than hitting, etc. In general, I'm talking about run-of-the-mill, open hand spanking that is physically painful, but does no permanent or severe physical injury. Of course, spanking can get a helluva lot worse than this, but just so you know we're on the same page, rest assured that I'm talking about the type of spanking you believe in, not the type of spanking I sometimes received.
You misunderstand, or see too little of what I'm saying if you think I'm contradicting myself up there. In many cases, spanking can probably be an effective way to stop a particular behavior or a particular type of behavior, at least in the short term. That's obvious.
But my position on whether it's an acceptable method of behavior modification takes more into account than its efficacy. Beating your kid or berating them constantly can also be effective forms of behavior modification. Hell, cutting your kids hands off would be an effective way of making him stop a number of behaviors, including hiding behind the curtains and flipping off the neighbor ;D
I simply think that spanking has negative baggage that outweighs its benefits, especially in light of alternative, non-violent methods of punishment that work at least as well.
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....rest assured that I'm talking about the type of spanking you believe in, not the type of spanking I sometimes received.
You misunderstand, or see too little of what I'm saying if you think I'm contradicting myself up there. In many cases, spanking can probably be an effective way to stop a particular behavior or a particular type of behavior, at least in the short term. That's obvious.
But my position on whether it's an acceptable method of behavior modification takes more into account than its efficacy. I simply think that spanking has negative baggage that outweighs its benefits, especially in light of alternative, non-violent methods of punishment that work at least as well.
Good to know on the first part up there. I didn't bother responding to anyone for a while and may not have looked back at everything.
I don't look at spanking as something that should be used to stop a behavior, rather to reinforce the seriousness of the behavior and the escalating consequences that can happen. In Chad's instance, I think we can all see that his child got the message that further actions could lead to more serious consequences. The child doesn't understand that the consequence could very well have been a severe (and perhaps deforming) burn that Chad would have had no control over.
It's about stepping in while your child ISN'T in serious trouble and working to head off the problem (or at least try to limit the exposure or consequences) before it gets to that point.
There even becomes a point at which you simply have to let your kid experience the consequences of their actions. I believe that age is beyond the point where spanking should be used. I believe spanking a child becomes less useful the older a child gets, when they CAN be talked to, reasoned with, and understand the consequences of further behavior, not because they become physically equal to (or stronger than) the parent giving them a spanking.
Like I said before, I just see far too much "beating" talk and it negates any reasonable discussion about spanking a child as a disciplinary method, much like the opposite reaction of "we'll just talk to him and he'll end up setting himself on fire because he won't listen". Neither is reasonable, both are extreme positions, and painting with such an extreme brush leads to someone possibly ignoring a very valid point because they see the other person as an equally-as-extreme person with no clue about "real life".
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Dang, I hate agreeing with Drew.
Hes right. Theres the occasional spank on the bottom (with our son, maybe once or twice a month - mainly when he does something inherently dangerous to himself), and then theres abuse.
Don't confuse the two. I was often hit with a belt. Not every day, like Chad seems to have been, but often enough that fear became the control my father had over me. I'd like my kids to respect me, not fear me.
I've found that in most cases, a three minute time-out does work. Especially if the kid has some guilt issues.
On the other hand, I don't think I'll be putting him on time out after he gets hit by a car. We live on a 4 lane road. Time out ain't gonna cut it.
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Let me make sure I understand this. Most of the people involved in this discussion have been beaten when young. (I took some closed fists to the face when I was 15, but that's another story)
shmokes (and others) would have everyone believe that corporal punishment (we are talking about spankings here, not the aforementioned fist-to-face) would turn a child into a social deviant, a cowering mass of quivering flesh, a maladjusted miscreant, or someone who, god forbid, pumps gas for a living.
Strangely, (and I'm making a bit of an assumption here) there seem to be quite a number of fairly successful, fairly intelligent people involved in this discussion. I'm guessing you don't spend three days a week paying someone hundreds of dollars an hour to listen to your problems, you didn't kill your parents/teachers/classmates, and you don't have to take 13 pills a day to "cope with life."
Did anyone here actually get disciplined the way you are suggesting is now the "right" way? Has anyone stopped to consider that perhaps the adversity you experienced made you the stronger / smarter individual you are today and that it quite possibly played a vital role in getting you here?
I don't know. I've always been a big fan of the idea that the "result" is a good indicator of the viability of the "method". Maybe it doesn't apply in this instance.
Then again, maybe it does and we are all so twisted that no-one should take heed to anything we write on the subject.
(Is that enough drama for you, shmokes? ;D)
RandyT
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I was one of those who got the receiving end of a leather belt a time or two. I'd also say that I probably deserved it those times I got it, usually knowing I was risking it when I did whatever it was I did (which usually boiled down to me not doing what I was told, after having been told quite a few times to do it).
I'm no deviant, have no criminal history or offenses (other than driving, but I doubt seriously that's something that'd warrant a "spanking")....
There were a few I'd question now that I got, mostly from school.... my 3rd grade teacher paddled me on a near daily basis, once for tripping someone (which was NOT my fault.. then she had the gall to call me a liar) as well as writing in a book that was MINE, not school property. Then there was all those incomplete homework assignments that I got paddled for, etc....
:angry:
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shmokes (and others) would have everyone believe that corporal punishment (we are talking about spankings here, not the aforementioned fist-to-face) would turn a child into a social deviant, a cowering mass of quivering flesh, a maladjusted miscreant, or someone who, god forbid, pumps gas for a living.
Funny, until I read your last line I was fully intending to reference the return of the drama queen.
The neat little package you tie everything up into, however, doesn't take into account that Chad is a successful software engineer in spite of beatings, not just spankings. I'm a talented network admin on his way to law school in spite of outright abuse, not just spankings. Applying your simplistic formula to these examples seems to indicate that the success of your kid varies directly with the degree of corporal punishment. I just about think that those closed fists you got in the face are the direct cause of your owning your own business today. What else could it be?
The fact is, people from all walks of life were spanked and/or beat as kids. But when you tap into the message board of a community of people who have the various skills, aptitude and commitment to build something like an arcade cabinet you are obviously going to be talking to people who are, in general, well above average in terms of life success.
You can hardly call a bunch of geeks like us a random sample.
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The neat little package you tie everything up into, however, doesn't take into account that Chad is a successful software engineer in spite of beatings, not just spankings.
Well, it wasn't as often as Ed says, but when it happened it was usually enough to get the attention of teachers/peers the next day. The usual response was "I got into a fight on the way home".
There were a couple of factors academically working extremely in my favor that I don't really want to get into here.
And yes, getting abused as a kid leaves a person with permanent psychological issues. No one who has ever been there would claim otherwise. I never particularly cared much about getting slapped around. Psychological abuse is 100x worse. So is watching someone else get slapped around.
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The neat little package you tie everything up into, however, doesn't take into account that Chad is a successful software engineer in spite of beatings, not just spankings. I'm a talented network admin on his way to law school in spite of outright abuse, not just spankings. Applying your simplistic formula to these examples seems to indicate that the success of your kid varies directly with the degree of corporal punishment. I just about think that those closed fists you got in the face are the direct cause of your owning your own business today. What else could it be?
The fact is, people from all walks of life were spanked and/or beat as kids. But when you tap into the message board of a community of people who have the various skills, aptitude and commitment to build something like an arcade cabinet you are obviously going to be talking to people who are, in general, well above average in terms of life success.
You can hardly call a bunch of geeks like us a random sample.
shmokes, you seem to have an uncanny way of putting words in my mouth. The comment was meant to invoke some introspection. It was not a proposed "formula for success". The fact that the people in this discussion seem to have that one variable in common might say something to those who are interested in listening.
You cannot say that X is a direct effect of Y when it comes to human beings. It's not possible because the variables are too great in numbers. But you, as a person, are the sum of those variables. And while you can't specifically say that the result of something as insignificant in a humans development as a spanking would be better or worse, you can accurately say that the result would be different.
Who you are is a direct result of those variables and to state otherwise would be saying that you were somehow immune to environmental conditioning. The question I am posing is "what is that thing about you, that you can absolutely attribute to the form of discipline you received, that you find so terrifically disturbing, you want to make damn sure your kids don't inherit?"
It's simple for one to sit back and say what a crap job your parents did to raise you (maybe the fact that you question that is proof enough) and it's even easier to do it if you have never raised children of your own, particularly those with a set of "difficult" variables. But you wouldn't be you if things were different, and some of this discussion could perhaps be interpreted as people blaming their parents for some of their own personal shortcomings. I'm not saying that this is the case, but only you would know that through some real, in-depth introspection. And that's what is truly important when administering discipline to your children, as well as deciding which form it should take.
RandyT
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I know a lot of people who never became much of anything and fully blame their parents and their childhood. Most of the time it's just lack of work ethic and real ambition.
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I'd also venture a guess that there are many here who DON'T "give their kids a beating".
"belt", "beat", "haul off", "whack", "smack", "pound", "whale"..... the term is "spank".
The couples I mentioned do not lay a hand on the children, as far as I have ever known (and as far as they claim).
As far as "spanking" being somehow less physical than a "whack", "smack", etc...well, it seems to me to be a rationalization of the action. It's a physical punishment, designed to scare or intimidate the child into changing their behavior based on a response to pain/humiliation/fear. And I imagine it makes no difference to the child whether you use the term "spank" or "beat"...
I'm not against hitting/smacking/fighting/corporal punishment in general, etc., it's just when it comes to the idea of child-rearing, I'd rather use another method of training. I don't see how spanking addresses the root cause of any problem, nor do I see how it encourages disciplined behavior based on reasoning, rather than conditioning.
You train a dog using physical methods of punishment, because they cannot reason. I don't want to "condition" my child in the same manner.
mrC
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...and for the record, I was "spanked" (with a belt, a paddle, by hand)...and I don't think it helped me understand the causality of my actions other than certain things=spanking.
I was an introspective and observant kid...and I credit that for the fact that I am not (nor ever was) a deviant, not the corporal punishment. Because, believe me, I had access to a lot of "bad things" (ie: hard drugs, alcohol, guns, knives, etc) and I was surrounded by loads of troublemakers..and my parents never knew. I chose not to engage in deviant behavior because I saw what it did to the people that engaged in it (ie: causality).
This just reinforces my support of a more interactive/engaged approach to punishment, as opposed to the physical type. I can see the appeal of "spanking", since it's certainly the quick and easy way of dealing with an issue ("Spank! Go to your room! Don't do that bad thing again or you'll get another!")...however, this makes it a less engaged form of rearing. Thus, not for me.
mrC
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That's another reason we shouldn't be using my childhood as an example. There was causality when I got whacked around but it was rarely something I did. It was usually just as a result of being in the wrong place when the wrong thing happened.
That's why that line between spanking and beating is so relevant. A spanking pretty much always follows something the kid did wrong. A beating often follows something that didn't involve the kid at all. Like a playoff loss and 12 beers.
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Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say your childhood shouldn't be a test case.
mrC
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The only times I spanked my son was for lying and once for stealing. I didn't hit him very hard. The act in and of itself was enough to accomplish the mission.
Doing it all the time is worthless. It's like yelling. Yell at them and they get deaf, spank them and they will get used to it.
The trouble with spanking is that people use it for a "cure all". I used it only to:
1) establish that I can freaking do it
2) show him that his worst fears can be realized
3) Make the occasion very memorable
My mom used it very sparingly, but when used it was very dramatic. She would make me get a "switch" and then I'd get it.
...and for the record, I was "spanked" (with a belt, a paddle, by hand)...and I don't think it helped me understand the causality of my actions other than certain things=spanking.
Well yah, duh! Kids can't think introspective like. They don't have the development or experience to reflect on life deeply.
The way I look at it my kid has to respond to what I tell him, right then, right there. Why? Because I might yell "RuN!" and I don't want to hear some smart ass "why" because "why" might be he's standing in front of tree I just cut down, etc. (maybe a bad example, but you catch my drift).
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Well yah, duh! Kids can't think introspective like. They don't have the development or experience to reflect on life deeply.
I'm not saying that *can*, intuitively. I'm saying that I'd rather use a method that encourages introspection, helps develop that reflection. I think the rest of what you've said is just fine.
I also agree, as you say, that there are parents that use physical discipline all too frequently.
mrC
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Well, it stands to reason... most of the time, dumb parents raise dumb kids. It's not all genetics.
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Lots of it could be that the kid has ADHD or something. Mine is normal. He isn't hyperactive and he strives to do really well in school, etc. So maybe he's an exception.
I can count on my hand how many times I've had to take privileges. Only lying and stealing are worthy of spankings in my house. I have had to do that twice.
Being mostly a republican, I use money to control him. ;)
From a young age I never bought him anything at the store. I figured it encouraged the "I want it" fits. I gave him money. If he did good, he got money. If he did bad, he got "fined". He did really bad he got nothing and I took something. It has been very effective.
He can grasp the concept of that, and I can discuss it with him at the end of the week when he gets paid.
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Lots of it could be that the kid has ADHD or something.
That's *another* thing that gets abused by parents. Too many kids are just plopped into the ADD/ADHD category, mom/dad seek out a sympathetic therapist and bam!...kid gets sedated.
Being mostly a republican, I use money to control him. ;)
:D
"Johnny, I'll divest your Halliburton options if you don't go clean your room!"
"Awwww Dad, I can't wait until your life insurance pays out!"
mrC
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"life insurance is only for people who care what happens to those who survive! haha!"
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:laugh2:
mrC
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"life insurance is only for people who care what happens to those who survive! haha!"
I care...I'm just too cheap to pay for it. ;D
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That's *another* thing that gets abused by parents. Too many kids are just plopped into the ADD/ADHD category, mom/dad seek out a sympathetic therapist and bam!...kid gets sedated.
This I definately agree with, I've seen parents who give their kids tons of sugar through candy/cookies/soda and then complain that they think their kid has ADHD because he's always bouncing off the walls and can't concentrate. They don't seem to understand the that its the sugar makes the kids so hyper. And don't get me wrong, ADD and ADHD are real problems and some kids do require treatment for them.
And this reminds me of one of my favorite SNL sketchs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRE32aQN9b4
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"life insurance is only for people who care what happens to those who survive! haha!"
I heard that.
Yeah, you have to be nice to your kids. We all know they choose your nursing home for you.
I have seen kids with diagnosed ADHD. They are like "Tweak" on south park. Poor Kids.
And then I've seen kids who simply did not spend enough time with the parents turn into some kind of roving destruction machines. The key is to make the kid feel safe. Then know the rules and the consequences. If a parent isn't consistent then the behavior won't be consistent.
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Also consider, when deciding whether spanking is hitting, that the purpose of spanking is to inflict pain. You don't want to inflict permanent damage, and you apparently want the mark to be one that will disappear within 20 minutes, but there's no point to it if pain is not inflicted. Spanking without pain would be like grounding your kid from riding bikes when he doesn't own a bike or know anybody who does. It's only a punishment if it hurts.
I know how I learned that fire was hot and not to be played with. I'll agree with Chad on this. Each kid is different and responds to different punishments.
I do not intend on spanking my kids, but if all else fails, I am leaving that option open. Ideally, I wouldn't want to physically punish my kids, but realisticly, I may have a kid who responds better once he's been whooped.
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Yep. I would rather my kid fear a slap for touching the stove than learn the hard way that a pot of boiling water can kill you.
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Yep. I would rather my kid fear a slap for touching the stove than learn the hard way that a pot of boiling water can kill you.
You might be teaching your kid to not get caught touching the stove.
Next time your kid might wait until no one is watching when he touches it and the seconds it'll take for the nearest adult to locate where the screaming is coming from could be the seconds that would have been the difference between life or death and 1st or 3rd degree burns.
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You might be teaching your kid to not get caught touching the stove.
Next time your kid might wait until no one is watching when he touches it and the seconds it'll take for the nearest adult to locate where the screaming is coming from could be the seconds that would have been the difference between life or death and 1st or 3rd degree burns.
you can say the same exact thing about every other punishment. How exactly was giving a time out or taking a toy away give the child extra insight on why they were punished? I can understand why people don't want to spank their child, but this reason makes no sense.
Since I do not have any kids, and probably won't have any for a while, I feel I shouldn't be debating how to raise a child, which is why I'm staying on the sidelines for the most part. I will, however, point out severly flawed arguements.
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Well, it stands to reason... most of the time, dumb parents raise dumb kids. It's not all genetics.
Then there's the parents who do not take responsibility for their kid's actions!
I was at my neice's birthday party and when the cake came out, all of the kids EXCEPT one were hogging around my sister, trying to get tastes of the frosting, etc. My brother made a comment: "Looks like Jessica's the only one behaving here!". She was actually sitting on my brother's lap at the time, just watching what was going on. Made ME feel proud as she's MY daughter!
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How exactly was giving a time out or taking a toy away give the child extra insight on why they were punished? I can understand why people don't want to spank their child, but this reason makes no sense.
Punishments need to be consistent. The child isn't touching the stove to be disrespectful, he's just being curious. The kid isn't going to understand why touching the stove gets a slap when not sharing with his siblings gets him sent to his room. When the intent for the crime of the lesser punishment was more malice.
I don't know if Chad hits his kids every time they step out of line. I'm assuming he doesn't. In this instance he's made a point to say hitting a child is better than letting the child do something that'll kill him. I wanted to point out that the child doesn't see the differences.
All kids are different and I'm going to assume parents are the best judge at what their kids need.
With all these school shootings I think if parents are doing something to control their kids we should leave them alone.
DCF should be going after parents who don't control their kids at all.
As you can see by my earlier post I was also trying to stay on the sidelines for the most part. Not because I don't have kids but because parents are the best at knowing how to raise their own children.
I thought I was just pointing out severely flawed arguments, but seeing how nonsensical your post reads, has shown me that I should just leave this topic to those that care.
Thank you.
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WTF? Who are you and what have you done with Dartful Dodger?
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Punishments need to be consistent. The child isn't touching the stove to be disrespectful, he's just being curious. The kid isn't going to understand why touching the stove gets a slap when not sharing with his siblings gets him sent to his room. When the intent for the crime of the lesser punishment was more malice.
I do agree with this, but as explained by earlier posts, they spanked their child for grabbing the pots on the stove because they were doing it repeatedly and their normal means of punishment were not working. When the child is repeatedly endangering themselves and all your usual means to get them to stop fail, then I can see why they would spank the child even though there was no malice in what the child did.
I'm not sure how my post was nonsensical, I thought it was pretty clear. Your argument was that slapping a child for touching the stove might only teach them to avoid getting caught, and I was saying that it could be true for any punishment given. If you give them a time out for touching the stove, then they might also learn not to get caught because they don't want a time out. Since the same problem potentially exists for every punishment, it can not be used as an argument against one particular punishment.
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You might be teaching your kid to not get caught touching the stove.
Next time your kid might wait until no one is watching when he touches it and the seconds it'll take for the nearest adult to locate where the screaming is coming from could be the seconds that would have been the difference between life or death and 1st or 3rd degree burns.
Well, in that case, the parent shouldn't have left an 18 month old alone in a room with boiling water, yes?
In any case, if none of the other methods even stopped him from trying it when people are looking, how are they more effective here?
Dartful, you'd know more specifics if you'd read the entire thread. My methods are pretty clearly outlined, such as under what circumstances I have spanked my kids and why.
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Dartful, you'd know more specifics if you'd read the entire thread. My methods are pretty clearly outlined, such as under what circumstances I have spanked my kids and why.
You're right, I got mixed up on who said what.
I was just going by your last post.
Sorry about that.
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Hiya'. This is gonna' ramble a bit. So, er, okay then.
I read through all of these posts and I can't say that I think that there's an absolute right or wrong to this.
I have four children, (got two for one last time around), and I have on occasion spanked them. When it's finished with and they've had a few minutes to stew, we talk it over and explain why it happened and what they've got to do to make sure it doesn't happen again.
It is never to hurt them and always after other forms of discipline have failed.
I'll admit to the occasional yelling too. Typically, the yelling is composed of just two words repeated at ever increasing volume - "Be nice!" It sounds odd to say that but that's one of the things that I say rather than making them feel like crap on top of being in trouble by calling them names or belittling them. This is usually delivered at the point where they've started trying to physically harm each other. :) Anyone who has siblings near their own age probably is familiar with this phenomenon.
Anyway, with four kids, I think I've experienced a pretty diverse group of behaviors so far. The few spankings I've had to give have resolved the problem outright. As the kids have gotten older, the necessity for spanking has disappeared.
I spend a great deal of time trying to build my kids up, teach them positive behaviors, and just...spend time with them. I NEVER call them names or reference them as being a bad person, rather I focus on the behavior and how it was a bad decision that got them in trouble.
I think, (and of course this is all just my perspective which has about as much cash value as an airborne fart), that it just depends on what works for the parent and the kids being parented.
Two of my kids have been fairly well behaved from the get go and two of them present challenges to me as a parent regularly. Even though I recognize this, I spend extra time trying to AVOID reaching the point where I have to spank them. I firmly believe that the person they'll ultimately come is only PARTIALLY dependent on the nature/nurture process. Some of the things they'll encounter or do, completely independent of my parenting, will alter who they will eventually become. Some of the personality traits my kids show have been evident almost since birth...of course, that's just how I see it.
At some point when the child repeatedly tries to put everything from cat turds to liquid bleach in their mouth and every other option has failed to stop this behavior, a dramatic response is required.
...and by the way, the turd/bleach scenario isn't an imagined example.
I think that spanking is just like any other tool a parent can use in raising their children and if used properly and in a reasonable manner is perfectly acceptable. When you screw up in real life, repeatedly, the consequences escalate. It is not unreasonable to see how this plays out in a parenting situation. Yelling, again in a reasonable manner, (although that sounds unreasonable in the first place), serves it's purpose too. If the point of it is to prevent the kids from stabbing each other with forks or prevent them from putting the cat in the blender...I think that's just fine.
...and the fork stabbing/cat blender IS an imagined situation.
Finally, I had a very unique situation as a child for an example of how to parent. Just skip this part if you don't want to read the blabbering tale of my childhood. REALLY. :) It boils down to, at some point, accepting responsibility for choosing to be the sort of parent/person YOU want to be and NOT blaming your crappy parent(s) for your shortcomings.
{begin skip}
I lived with my father who had some let's say unique extra-curricular activities that wound up leading to some felony convictions involving controlled substances. I met a great number of somewhat odd individuals who probably shouldn't have been around children, let alone other humans. Dad was a happy fellow who wasted no time in doing things such as kicking me in the balls when I didn't brush my teeth in order to get to school on time or kicking me in the ass and into a wall because I wasn't walking fast enough. He was also particularly fond of making me feel that I had the value of burnt toast with an endless stream of insults, put downs, and just general meanness. When I was 15 for some unknown reason, (to this day), I came home from school and my father kicked the snot out of me for about two hours and then tried to strangle me to death. I was literally saved by the bell. Turned out that my father's stepfather was hospitalized that same evening and he was called to the hospital in the middle of my strangulation. He departed after the call but not before the final shot of slamming the back of my head into the floor a half dozen times before leaving. I was taken away by child protective services, right out of school, the next day. Oddly, due to the time that this happened in, my father wasn't prosecuted for this. Not long after this, he broke my stepbrother's arm. Again, no prosecution. The good old days.
My sister lived with my mother. My mother is about as close to June Cleaver as you can get. However, she had her own issues that mostly dealt with the fallout from spending the years living with and being married to my father. Only once in all the years she lived in the same house with me or when I went for the regular visitations did she ever strike me. She slapped me right across the face when I was being a complete asterisk - and I deserved it. Turns out it was not long after the situation with dear old Dad went down.
What does this all mean? Not a damned thing. In the end, I took responsibility for being a different person than these people and appreciating the things, if any, that they taught me.
{end skip}
I hope I've contributed somethin' valuable to this...but if not, well, that's nothing new.
My apologies for throwin' my sob story into it. :)
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The sucky part about learning from your parents mistakes and becoming a better person than them is that you make a choice to spend your adult life pretty much without a home family. That is the boat I am floating in right now. My in-laws are all I have now, and they are only a slight step up. ::)
Just curious, but is there anyone on here that had a good, healthy prime-time family sitcom upbringing instead of the apparently common unhealthy after-school special upbringing? Maybe we have stumbled upon something else we all have in common other than a arcade/coin-op/button addiction.
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Just curious, but is there anyone on here that had a good, healthy prime-time family sitcom upbringing instead of the apparently common unhealthy after-school special upbringing? Maybe we have stumbled upon something else we all have in common other than a arcade/coin-op/button addiction.
I can definitely say I scrounged quite a few cans JUST to escape into a game or two o' Pac-Man or Asteroids. :)
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I severed all contact with my father when I was 17. Completely. Have spoken to him or anyone else on that side of my family probably 3 times in the 14 years since. With all the wisdom brought on by being twice the age I was then I now wish I had had the strength to do it 5 years sooner. I knew at 12 it should happen but a kid doesn't know how to do such things.
Not many of my friends growing up had that "normal" family. Few of us had two parents in the house, at least half had no contact with a parent for one reason or another. One didn't know his father, one had a deceased mother, one had a father who didn't migrate to the US with them, a few had both parents but the lived apart.
The kids that had two "normal" parents in a "normal" house were an abstract concept. They were in the same school but the whole thought of coming home on the bus to a sane household, doing homework, having dinner put on the table for you, maybe playing Nintendo until bedtime was just weird. Hard to imagine. I figured life was like that in some places but in the same way I figured the Red Sox might win the World Series someday. It's possible, but no one I knew had seen it.
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I had a great childhood with a great set of parents. They had their normal human flaws, but all in all I had it really good. I hope I'm giving my kids as good of a childhood as I had.
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Lharles, that was great! That was a really nice post. I enjoyed it very much!
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Lharles, that was great! That was a really nice post. I enjoyed it very much!
I whole heartedly agree. Well done Lharles.
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Just curious, but is there anyone on here that had a good, healthy prime-time family sitcom upbringing instead of the apparently common unhealthy after-school special upbringing? Maybe we have stumbled upon something else we all have in common other than a arcade/coin-op/button addiction.
I feel I had a pretty decent childhood growing up.
It was far from the prime-time family sitcom upbringing, which is a HORRIBLE way to judge a family situation. When serious situations can take a half hour to "fix", and stupid jokes are made at the expense of others to amuse you, the viewer, as in a sitcom, they're FAR from worthy to use as some bellwether of how families should be. The ONLY sitcom that even comes to mind as something I'd like to see (and is STILL seriously lacking) would be The Cosby Show.
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Just curious, but is there anyone on here that had a good, healthy prime-time family sitcom upbringing instead of the apparently common unhealthy after-school special upbringing? Maybe we have stumbled upon something else we all have in common other than a arcade/coin-op/button addiction.
I had a good childhood-there were it's ups and downs, but I never got more than a (well deserved) spanking from either of my parents, my usual punishment was grounding to my room. I started working washing dishes at 14 to buy my own Nintendo and pretty much spent my childhood playing with friends in the neighborhood-riding bikes, sledding in the winter, legos/GI Joe, basketball-about as average as you can get.
My parents split up my Sophmore year of high school, but by then it really didn't matter due to my age. I saw them both pretty much as much as I wanted and they had a reasonably amiable divorce that wasn't anything even close to traumatic. Incidently, they're back together, just had the 12 anniversary of their second wedding.
Really, the only trauma I had growing up was from outside sources-my sister and I (and her boyfriend/now ex-husband) got into a pretty bad car accident my 8th grade year. She spent two weeks in a coma, wasn't supposed to live, then wasn't suppose to get more than a 4th grade intellect back. She graduated college only a year late with a double major and a minor and now teaches 7th graders, so that obviously worked out OK in the end.
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Lharles, that was great! That was a really nice post. I enjoyed it very much!
I whole heartedly agree. Well done Lharles.
Thanks. :)
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Lharles, that was great! That was a really nice post. I enjoyed it very much!
I whole heartedly agree. Well done Lharles.
Thanks. :)
I thought it was really good too, except the part where you say that spanking is just like any other tool a parent has at his/her disposal and the part where you say it's acceptable. :cheers:
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CEO's say that they deserved the spankings (http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/1009Spanked-CEOs-ON.html) they got.
Overwhelmingly they were all spanked. (Maybe by their receptionist?)
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The majority of people, whether CEOs or bums on the street, were spanked as kids. Not to mention that the newspaper's survey had a whopping sample size of "about 20". Whatever that means. They don't even know how many people they talked to?
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What I like about that article is the way they write it up like the CEO's are lucky not to be crooks and killers because they were spanked.
They didn't do much of a "survey". It appeared that there were 20, but they all had been spanked. That was the article.
I wonder who on this board was NEVER spanked. Me, even being the perfect angel as a child, was from time to time "switched". But that's okay. Mom had to go to the Nursing home, and I got to choose it.
Want your teeth back Momma? Huh? Remember when you spanked me in '67 over that broken vase? Seems pretty trivial now doesn't it? Aren't you Sorry momma? Huh?
BWHWHAHAHAHA
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It appeared that there were 20 about 20 . . .
;D
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One thing I've noticed is that I have no real baseline for measuring how my kids' life is right now. I look at their life and from my point of view they're very priveledged, have a great life, not a single want. My wife, who had a lower middle class upbringing, sees it mostly the same but her baselines differ. To most of the people we know we are cheapasses who put too much effort into stretching our dollars.
As an example, on a night my wife works, I make dinner for the kids. I ask them what they want... one says oatmeal, the other a cheese sandwich. I think cool, healthy, they get it. My wife comes home, sees what they had, and is annoyed that I didn't make them something "better" like fish sticks and fries. My point of view is that not only did they have dinner, they had what they wanted, and it was healthy food. Her point of view is that they should have a hot dinner. Other people on our block would see the fish sticks as a low quality dinner.
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Serving Fish sticks is child abuse.
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We like fish sticks. We make them along with a couple other things to lay out when we watch the games on Sunday.
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Serving your kids frozen dinners, or eating at McDonalds everyonce in a while is ok, but there are ALOT of parents out there who believe that kids will only eat this stuff. My Brother-in-law's kids both live off of pizza, hot dogs, chicken nuggets and fries. That is literally it. Even when we go over and grill out or something, the kids still get chicken nuggets and fries while everyone else eats steak/chicken and sides. I got one of the kids to eat a bite of a baby pickle one day and his mom actually got angry/defensive saying "HE DOESN"T LIKE THAT!"...so he changed his mind and made a nasty face after he was already liking it.
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My kids won't eat the steak/chicken. They may eat the side, if it's potatoes or something with cheese. Seriously, we have served them some of the best grilled chicken and steak. I grill a lot. They don't touch it.
Now, put some nuggets, or mac and cheese, and they'll eat it. But the better stuff, the "grown up" stuff, gets left on the plate most of the time. They will actually not eat rather than eat the steak or chicken. The older kid is moving towards the better foods but my 5 year old will sit at the table for 3 hours rather than touch bite sized pieces of good steak.
Not all kids are like this but mine definitely are. Especially the younger one. My wife puts more energy into cajoling calories into that kid than she does into everything else combined.
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The framework for a kids diet is laid VERY early. Trying to change the diet/tastes of a 5 year old is a very difficult thing to do. Be vigilant. ;)
Now my other example:
My sister-in-law has two kids also. She started them very early on fruits and vegetables. Letting them play/ wallow in carrots/bananna's/apples/etc. as soon as they got to solid foods.
Those two kids will eat anything you put in front of them (now 5 and 3 years old). No joke, you can hand them a piece of raw broccoli, and down the trap it goes.
Another thing I saw one day was a lady with what appeared to be a very large 1-2 year old...maybe 18 months. They were eating at McDonalds. The lady slapped a sausage and egg biscuit down in front of him, and poured an ENTIRE can of Mountain Dew into a sippy cup for him. Wow...now that was some quality parenting. I bet that kid will be eating salads in no time.
As for myself, I was raised not being forced to eat anything. I grew up on fries/fish sticks/hot dogs...pretty much anything fried/hot just like your kids are being raised now (because they don't eat anything else). Luckily, I met my wife in high school and she has been able to change alot of my diet. I REALLY wish my parents would have fed me more diversified/healthy meals when I was a kid.
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The framework for a kids diet is laid VERY early. Trying to change the diet/tastes of a 5 year old is a very difficult thing to do. Be vigilant. ;)
Now my other example:
My sister-in-law has two kids also. She started them very early on fruits and vegetables. Letting them play/ wallow in carrots/bananna's/apples/etc. as soon as they got to solid foods.
Those two kids will eat anything you put in front of them (now 5 and 3 years old). No joke, you can hand them a piece of raw broccoli, and down the trap it goes.
That's easy to say. Kids have personalities. Some are very stubborn. Same as the spanking debate, any given method doesn't apply to all kids. Fruit makes my older son throw up. I've seen it quite a few times. Bite a banana, gag, vomit. Same with apple. No amount of vigilance is going to make a kid eat something that makes him puke.
Another thing I saw one day was a lady with what appeared to be a very large 1-2 year old...maybe 18 months. They were eating at McDonalds. The lady slapped a sausage and egg biscuit down in front of him, and poured an ENTIRE can of Mountain Dew into a sippy cup for him. Wow...now that was some quality parenting. I bet that kid will be eating salads in no time.
Well that's an entirely different story. That kid will be a tub if he's not already. My kids wouldn't eat that any more than they would eat the steak. They have their little window of food and it works for them. One is perfectly on his target weight for his height. The other is actually way under his weight and no matter what we put in front of him he eats as little of it as he can get away with. That's just his personality. Last week we were at ---smurfing--- Disneyworld, sitting at a table, waiting for him to eat his lunch so we could get on with playing around. He wouldn't do it, not the carrot sticks, not the pizza, not the cookies, not the soda, not the chicken. Not even to get up and go on more rides. Some kids are just like that.
As for myself, I was raised not being forced to eat anything. I grew up on fries/fish sticks/hot dogs...pretty much anything fried/hot just like your kids are being raised now (because they don't eat anything else).
I was raised pretty much eating when I could, what I could. That wasn't preference, that was just being hungry and not having much food around. Didn't matter if we liked it or not, better eat while there's something to be eaten. Makes it hard for me to manage a kid that will stare at little pieces of a perfectly grilled T bone and say he doesn't want to eat it.
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Fruit makes my older son throw up. I've seen it quite a few times. Bite a banana, gag, vomit. Same with apple. No amount of vigilance is going to make a kid eat something that makes him puke.
Hehe, I did that too as a kid/teenager. I remember dry-heaving like crazy when I had to try and eat vegetables other than corn and green beans.
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I do it with onions. They make me chuck immediately. Cooked, raw, in any form. I don't get anywhere near swallowing them and don't think I even could.
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The thing that irritates me now is when I catch myself picking stuff out of my food out of forcive habit. I don't mind the stuff, I just did it for so long, my brain tries to tell me to get rid of it. ;D
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I still pick onions out of everything that has them. Always will. And they're in freakin everything.
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They will actually not eat rather than eat the steak or chicken.
Heh, Chad sucks at grilling.
No amount of vigilance is going to make a kid eat something that makes him puke.
Perhaps you need less vigilance and more duct tape. Or just spank him. Nothing else appears to be working :P
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I'm just waiting for the time that Shmoke's little girl takes a shoe and throws it at his brand new 60" wide screen TV. :o THEN we'll be talking some duct tape.
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I'm just waiting for the time that Shmoke's little girl takes a shoe and throws it at his brand new 60" wide screen TV. :o THEN we'll be talking some duct tape.
If he's lucky, he won't be at home at the time. Then he'll have the time to calm down as he drives home so he doesn't hit his child like the rest of you inbred yokels ;) Oh, and me too ;D
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I'm just waiting for the time that Shmoke's little girl takes a shoe and throws it at his brand new 60" wide screen TV. :o THEN we'll be talking some duct tape.
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That's awesome.
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Just looking at that paint mess above reminds me of a huge culture shock I recieved when I met this family where the kids would always do crap like that and paint all over the furniture.
The parents would encourage that behavior because they thought it was art and the children were displaying their creatitivity. ::)
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My son did that to my Mitsubishi and broke the lenticular screen of my 60" projection TV. He was 2 1/2 and was chasing a neighbor's kid. I told him to get out of the living room but NOOOOO.
He took his shoe and threw it at the little girl and missed.
I was very, very upset when I discovered it. Very.
Very.
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My and my sisters painted our cat when we were really young. I think my parents had to shave him after that (I was really young and don't remember doing it, but they've told the story a number of times.)
Another cruel yet funny story is that my parents used to have a couple chickens, and one time they let all the eggs hatch so there were a bunch of baby chicks. I should also point out that we all learned to swim very young, so it wasn't uncommon to be left by the pool for a little while. Anyways, one day my mom goes in the back yard and finds my sister sitting on the edge of pool with a pile of dead chicks next to her. My sister then picked up one of the chicks, put it in the pool and says "Swim duck, swim duck"
We also had a couple sheep named "Lamb" and "Chop", one day we came home from school to find the sheep gone, but the freezers full of food ;D I had an odd childhood, but a good one.
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I didn't think chicken eggs (that you eat) could hatch. I thought the eggs we eat were basically chicken periods. Surely the rooster isn't going around getting it on with all those hens every single day.
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I didn't think chicken eggs (that you eat) could hatch. I thought the eggs we eat were basically chicken periods. Surely the rooster isn't going around getting it on with all those hens every single day.
Often the eggs are fertilized, but not always...you can eat either, and it will probably be early enough to not know the difference...I think...I haven't had chicken 101, so don't take my word on it.
Once I was forced to buy eggs from the natural food market, the eggs were like 1 dollar per egg, and most were bloody, and one had a chick starting to develop...gimme radiated eggs any day!
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I didn't think chicken eggs (that you eat) could hatch. I thought the eggs we eat were basically chicken periods. Surely the rooster isn't going around getting it on with all those hens every single day.
Your right, generally store eggs are unfertalized, but as I said, we had a couple chickens, as in live chickens who would lay fresh eggs daily. I'm guessing we also had a rooster, at least temporarily, otherwise it would of been difficult to get the eggs from our chickens to hatch.
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We used to have chickens when I was a kid... the eggs we got from them were fertilized sometimes. They'd have an embryo in them you could see when you broke them. I've seen eggs from the store like that too. It's pretty gross.
If you have chickens, and don't let the rooster at them sometimes, you don't get new chickens.
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Reminds me of that episode of Survivor when the people had to eat partially developed eggs. That was gross...