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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: Necro on February 01, 2006, 01:34:26 pm
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Oh...my...god. I've spent the last 5.5 years getting a damn Ph.D. and now...now that I'm DONE with it...I can't get a god for saken job. Why? Because everyone want's experience. 2-5 years experience.
I've been working...in a lab...getting a PhD....for 5 and a half years.
That doesn't count though. Nope...not at all...OTHER experience they want.
Trick being? CAN'T GET THE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE I CANT GET A JOB WITHOUT THE EXPERIENCE.
SO...I take a job which requires a lower degree (MS) and (here's the screwed up part) get paid MORE then I would in post-doctoral position...but possibly screw myself later...OR...I get a post-doc and get paid $35000 a year...with a PhD.
Good. Freaking. LORD.
Please note: The above rant comes to you from the letters P, H, and D and the number 5.5. Thank you in advance.
(Oh, first EE post...just needed to vent because I can't take this crap anymore.)
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Sorry about that, but outside of Academia, the PhD doesn't mean all that much more than the Masters does.
There DOES come a point where you've gone as far, educationally, in a field as the real world requires. Anything further, as you are seeing now, is a research area (i.e. back to Academia).
Academia does not pay well unless you get patents.
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I'm in Biotech/Pharma so...PhD does matter and most upper level positions actually require it. The damn issue is I can't find 'opener' positions for freaking PhDs...which is unbelievable. (Non-academic I'm talking)
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Where are you located?
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North East (NJ/PA/MD/DE/DC regions are where I'm looking). There should be TONS of stuff here but for some reason I can't seem to find them. :/
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I'm surprised NJ is a huge biotech area. I'm in the boston area and work for a mid-sized CRO in IT. They can't hire fast enought to keep up with turnover.
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Everything I'm seeing for PhD's want extensive post-doc experience...that's the problem. I had an interview with a CRO down here (Im in DC right now) and they are deciding w/in a month...hopefully I'll get that, as it would be great but I can't hold my breath on it.
I'm thinking maybe I should just be applying to positions that want a masters with experience instead of wanting PhDs...I just dont want to get in the position where I try to get a job after this and people are like "Oh, well, he works below his level" or "He must be crappy" or something like that.
I'm hoping that it's not it, but I have a feeling some of the NJ companies arent contacting me because my address is in DC. I guess that would be better then them just not wanting me...but maybe I need to address my desire to move to that area in my cover letters.
Gah.
So...frustrating...I really dont want to settle for a post-doc...
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I'm thinking maybe I should just be applying to positions that want a masters with experience instead of wanting PhDs...I just dont want to get in the position where I try to get a job after this and people are like "Oh, well, he works below his level" or "He must be crappy" or something like that.
I don't think you will see too much of that. Is the lab work you did part of your schooling or was it a job?
You know what might be good. Get a job that requires a masters and teach night courses at a local tech college. Even though tech colleges don't require PhD most of the time they prefer PhD. If you do a good job of teaching I think that would count for something.
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It does sound like you may be applying for jobs that you aren't qualified for yet. When they say "requires PhD and 5 years of experience" it's not an or proposition...
...best advice I can give is take a lower level job. There is no substitute for field experience. Lab experience and such are only part of it. They are also asking for someone with that experience in the corporate sector, someone who isn't going to have a 6 month learning curve on how to get things done in that environment.
We often have that type of issue with people who come out of school with a masters in cmpsci only to find they have no idea how to accomplish things in a company rather than a school.
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You have to have 2-3 experience before you work at McDonalds? Wow.
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/me smacks fredster
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The lab work I've done was technically part of 'schooling'. Well, half of it. Everything went towards my degree work but it's not like 'Ok, today we teach you XYZ'. It was more along the lines of 'Ok, this is my project. I need you three people to do X, you go do Y, I'll work on Z. Give me your data, I'll put it together into a report, etc etc.'
Basically, a science PhD is doing a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ton of work, and learning how to do the research/science design and management.
Well, for me it was. Most people don't get the management thing or get to run their project. I got kind of lucky.
I did see a manager position open at the local McDonalds though...I think I'm qualified for that. :)
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I know what one has to do to get a PhD in a science field... however, now try doing that in a corporate environment with budget requirements, shifting deadlines, dumbass bosses, changing project requirements... there is a whole different set of experience that comes with being in the private sector. It doesn't compare and if you don't have that experience it can take you twice as long to do half as much.
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There's a lot of truth to that, but acedemia is also often filled with all kinds of busywork assignments that are meant to pound a myriad of concepts into your memory and once you get into the real world you find that you can work far faster and more efficiently because you only have to do the specific things required by any given job. Not to mention that unless you are at MIT or the like you are probably working on 5-10 year old equipment that would be considered totally obsolete in the real world (of course one might argue that this is even more reason to require experience in addition to a degree).
Anyway, good luck.
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NEWSFLASH dude, your complaint is the same complaint EVERYONE has. "cant get a job due to no experience--cant get experience due to no job". I've heard that complaint from highschool drop outs, college grads, university grads... every level of education.
That's why smart students usually favour programs and schools that include good co-op placement programs, etc. Didn't you work at all during your studies??
Ray "reality sucka punch" B.
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We're interviewing college grads for a graphics position, and I get a say in who they hire. All the interviewees have the same resume, the same portfolio and the same lack of experience, so I'm voting according to breast size.
Guys like me are the reason it was so hard for a guy like me to find my first job after I graduated. Oh well.
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u wont get the job at mcDonalds...now your OVER qualified! As trump says "Your fired" ;) seriously though when are u patenting those mood enhancing M.A.M.E. supplements? We will support ya ;D
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I was in a very similar situation after college (BS Electrical Engineering). I looked for six months before I landed a job that I was even remotely qualified for. Rayb was harsh but correct in saying that this is a common problem. I recommend applying for jobs that you are overqualified for to get experience. Don't get discouraged, we are here for you. ;D
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Same thing happened to me (BS Computer Science)...well not exactly because I did have a job for about 6 months that I started a few months before I graduated. Unfortunately the company went out of business so I lost the job and 6 months experience is about as good as no experience, if anything its worse because your not fresh out of college and your not experienced. I ended up taking a security guard job for a few months to pay the bills until I found a good job. Now I'm a real estate appraiser which I didn't even need a degree for, although I do make more money then I would if I was still in computers :)
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there's allway sanitation engineer
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Your PhD will come in handy when being trained on the fryolater. You'll make the bestest fries evar! Yu0 aer teh bsest line cook we evar haded!
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there's allway sanitation engineer
Don't they use cyborgs for that now?
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Ive got/had the reverse problem
ive got loads of experience with CAD ( 8 years) but as i dont have the qualifiactions no one will employe me, or i will get employed but i dont get paid as much.
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I lied me ass off when I went for my job 5 years ago.
I'm still living a lie. ;D
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What it really comes down to is requirements. Requirements are determined by the prospective employer.
If their requirements include both experience and degree, and you only have the degree, you are not qualified.
Don't know what else to tell you, bro. No one is entitled to a job, not by education or experience or a combination of them.
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I guess the moral of the story here is aim low when just starting out? $35,000 isn't bad for an "entry level" job. If you're worth your salt and can talk a good talk, you should be able to move up rather quick (assuming your PHD wasn't just a waste of time. -- I swear, all the PHDs I've ever worked with were less skilled than the guys with only CS Bachelors degres).
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I've encountered that with a few PhD guys as well... very intelligent and capable in academia. Not all that useful in the real world. They could explain a hammer, explain what a hammer does, design experiments to test the hammer and the nails and the wood... but if you asked them to pick up a hammer and use it they'd break their own hand.
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All I am reading is "I can't get the Job I WANT and HOW I want it"
Lassie said it best when she said "oooh, woolf, oooh".
I think he can get a job. Everybody has to do a little gopher time. I don't care what their education is. You don't walk out of college and become a CEO.
With those types of qualifications, he shouldn't be targeting the "job" but the company or organization he wants to work in. Do that, then move up within it. Do the "basic training" required.
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I'm glad I allready have a job because with as much time that I spend here I wouldn't have time to look for one.....
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What about applying where you did the lab work? They already know you, and you might be able to get in with what you've got. Build your experience in your field as a "regular" employee, and work your way up.
Couple of years go by, and apply where you really want to work...
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All I am reading is "I can't get the Job I WANT and HOW I want it"
Lassie said it best when she said "oooh, woolf, oooh".
I think he can get a job. Everybody has to do a little gopher time. I don't care what their education is. You don't walk out of college and become a CEO.
With those types of qualifications, he shouldn't be targeting the "job" but the company or organization he wants to work in. Do that, then move up within it. Do the "basic training" required."
Well said.
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nepotism is the way to go!
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It's not what you know, it's who you know......
Got any friends in high places? Start calling them.
Alternatively, get some friends in high places......
RandyT
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There's a lot of good advice in this thread. I don't know you personally, nor am I well acquainted with your particular field, but I've seen a lot of kids get their PhDs who I'd describe as not-ready-for-primetime. It's not that they're UNqualified, but they're not qualified enough. Hell, I wouldn't hire them, they're barely non-students as far as I can tell.
IMO if you're not getting the kind of jobs you're looking for you should take a post-doc position, get the experience that people are looking for and get the job you *want* in a couple years.
I don't know how post-docs work in your field (and I know they're not all the same even withIN a given field), but my wife did a 2 year post doc where she got paid a lot of money and basically did whatever research and publishing she felt like doing. It was a sweet gig and when she left she went straight into a 'bidding war' that resulted in a very nice job for her. She would have done well for herself even without the post-doc, it just happened to be a good gig so she said "why not". But it also allowed her to do research and publish which just upped her value even more.
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By the way, congratulations on the PhD.
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get a job with a big company like boehringer ingelheim. start with with entry level job that only requires a bs, and after a year there, apply internally for a more suitable job that requires x years of experience. because you work there they will know more about you and will be more likely to give you a shot without the 'required experience'
http://us.boehringer-ingelheim.com/employment/search/search_new.html
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you should have gone to truck driving school
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Sorry about that, but outside of Academia, the PhD doesn't mean all that much more than the Masters does.
There DOES come a point where you've gone as far, educationally, in a field as the real world requires. Anything further, as you are seeing now, is a research area (i.e. back to Academia).
Academia does not pay well unless you get patents.
did he necessarily say a well paying job? or just a job (hopefully one he enjoys)? you americans with your 'money is everything' philosophy. sheesh! a friend of mine got a job at a university in Kansas straight after getting his phd. how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was it would be more than your average pay. he didn't like the uni however so now he and his wife are at a uni in california. he lectures. cant remember which one. not a famous one like berkely. point is he is able to get work because of that degree. and work he loves (not driving taxis).
edit: just checked. the unis he worked at were kansas state (research funded by dept of navy) and now san diego state.
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did he necessarily say a well paying job? or just a job (hopefully one he enjoys)? you americans with your 'money is everything' philosophy. sheesh! a friend of mine got a job at a university in Kansas straight after getting his phd. how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was it would be more than your average pay. he didn't like the uni however so now he and his wife are at a uni in california. he lectures. cant remember which one. not a famous one like berkely. point is he is able to get work because of that degree. and work he loves (not driving taxis).
Exactly. And I also find it depressing that so many people get qualifications just to eventually get a well paid job. Education should be its own reward.
Did you enjoy your 5.5 years getting a PhD? If the answer is yes then it wasn't time wasted. Personally I'd try and stay in academia. Academics have a degree of autonomy and freedom that most employees can only dream about. You'll probably earn more money in "the real world" but you'll also have to put up with a lot of crap. And you'll soon find that in any large organisation it's not necessarily the most qualified or most capable people who rise to the top.
Life's too short to be continually worrying about getting a better paid job n years down the line. Remember you can't take the money with you. Learn to focus on the journey instead of the destination.
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Education should be its own reward.
Learn to focus on the journey instead of the destination.
Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.
Try to picture this: A "journey" that is open to more possibilities due to the financial reward brought about by that education ::)
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Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.
Tell that to your kids when they grow up in a tiny little two bedroom apartment in crack central. Really. They'll feel much better about their life knowing that daddy loves his job more than he loves them.
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Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.
Tell that to your kids when they grow up in a tiny little two bedroom apartment in crack central. Really. They'll feel much better about their life knowing that daddy loves his job more than he loves them.
what a crock...
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Education should be its own reward.
Learn to focus on the journey instead of the destination.
Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.
Try to picture this: A "journey" that is open to more possibilities due to the financial reward brought about by that education ::)
clever americans who dont want a huge student loan come to australia to study. its cheaper to get board here, go to a top uni and then go back home than to study in the US...
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You guys crack me up. You live in such a simplistic black and white world. Anyone would think that academics are paupers. I mean c'mon. No one with a PhD is likely to end up in "crack central".
Tell that crap to the people who expect you to pay back your student loans.
Tell that to your kids when they grow up in a tiny little two bedroom apartment in crack central. Really. They'll feel much better about their life knowing that daddy loves his job more than he loves them.
Everything in life is a question of balance. Yes of course you cannot ignore money altogether. But you'll not be doing your kids any favours if you work such long hours that you never get to see them, or you keel over from a heart attack at 50 though overwork, or you come home stressed from work and take it out on them.
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I did see a manager position open at the local McDonalds though...I think I'm qualified for that. :)
interestingly, the current CEO of mcdonalds (american headquarters) is australian. where did he start? makin burgers! who is to say he didnt have a degree? im sure even chad would agree with me that being smart (not necessarily have a degree though) AND working hard will get you somewhere. the only reason you are going to be in 'crack central' is cos youre a bum...
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He says this like he's the only one who has an education. I spent years at two top universities studying Computer Science. I know exactly what he's talking about. Unforuntately, his haughty "I deserve affirmation and reward" and "I know more than you" attitude are very, very common in people who have spent their lives in Academia without stepping into the real world.
As you can see, you did well in Academia, but that does not yet entitle you to much in the real world. If you don't like how the real world works I suggest you take up a teaching position like the one mentioned and go back.
You can argue all you want but the fact remains that you are the one who started a thread about the fact that the real world is not jumping at the chance to employ you.
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Ok, my first foray into EE and I should have expected things to degenerate.
People are reading too far into my rant.
For the PhD question, 4-6 years is fairly common in Biosciences for getting a PhD without getting a masters ahead of time and starting a new project. Under 4 years is really, REALLY hard without prior work that you've done that can be thrown into it. I went onto grad school straight out of undergrad after doing internships over the summer because multiple higher ups at companies I met at a conference told me I would need it later on, so it would be better to get it now, when I wouldn't need to support a wife/family. So I did...in Biotech it will end up that I can hit a ceiling I can't go past without a PhD. It will occur when I'm most likely 50-55, but it's past when I can reasonably get a PhD. So as for biosciences, PhD's are actually pretty important for doing anytype of research job/etc. I'm aware this isn't true for other fields, especially humanities, but for my particular field it's very important to get where I want to be in 20-30 years. Phew, anyway.
I'm not expecting someone to 'give me' a great job, great pay, etc. I want a job that wouldn't relegate me to washing glassware, etc. Essentially, I have the technical skills many jobs are calling for, but lack 'pharmaceutical experience' in using those skills. As I said, I had a f-ed up PhD so I got to run a project, etc., so I was hoping that that experience would give me a leg up.
That being said, as someone mentioned I AM working in one of the labs I worked in during my PhD work currently. However I don't want to stay there and would like a biopharma job. The basic thing is getting into an office and getting someone to hire me for these positions which I'm kind of shooting at in the dark because I can't tell what I'm over/under/perfectly qualified for. There seems to be things I'm way overqualified for, or things I'm way underqualified for...so it's making it hard.
When I wrote that email, it was after searching for 2 hours for positions to apply to and finding one. The next day I located 15 and ended up applying for over 25 positions last week. Some higher, some lower, so hopefully something will turn up.
Anyway, thanks for those that were helpful, those that just wanted to be mean and stuff...no reason to even reply :). Dont really care about people that need to be mean/etc. online. Being frank and not an ass about it works wonders, and I understand what people have said and am taking it into account in my search.
So...thanks all, appreciate it. I won't rant again...I learned my lesson :)...I'll stick to the arcade stuff.
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What lesson? That going where people disagree with you is a bad idea? Discussion is about variety of viewpoint. If you do not like that, yes, coming here was a bad idea. This has been a pretty good thread, IMO.
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Discussion and variety are great, attacking someone personally on the other hand is never helpful and just makes whatever point a person was making be completely lost.
And, as I said, a lot of the advice was helpful.
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Wow, I bet that was a hella party. :-*
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how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was
Hippy.
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how much was he paid? who cares? he did his degree because he loves physics. so then he was being paid to do what he loved. whatever it was
Hippy.
in my time i have been called a number of things...
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Frankly, most employers in the bio sciences DO require extensive post-doc experience. That's just the way it is. My wife went through a long PHD program in pharmacology ( hence the user name..long story ), did multiple post-docs and THEN decided she didn't like lab work. Ha!
It all worked out ok though. She ended up getting a job doing intellectual property / patent investigation and is MUCH happier now. The thing is, she would NOT have gotten the job without her PHD.
The point here is that there are employers looking for PHDs in areas other than your degree. Unfortunately, I think the post-doc experience is probably still necessary. It almost seems like a 'paying your dues' type of thing.
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We americans have to worry about the "money is everything" because we work in the country with the fewest national holidays, least amount of vacation and one of longest work weeks in western civilsation. If you don't get a high-paid job, it's usually a low-paid, long-hour, bad benefits job. Even without the money... a high-paid job provides more freedom in many cases.
And realistically... not everyone can do the job they love. Somebody has to work in sanitation.
That being said, we Americans do have plenty of our priorities out of whack, but we're not the only one.
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Money isn't everything.
Drinking and trolling late night for loose women is everything.
Isn't it?
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After my last post, I swore I wouldn't read this thread again because I take things personally too easy then get all pissed or whatever and say something stupid.
However, after today I wanted to come back and post again. Farm and pinball - dead on. No one...NO ONE told me this. People always said 'Oh yeah, industry you can get a job without a post doc. It's not like academia'. They were academics. :/
Should have known :).
Well, this being said, I've read a few things and am going to start cold calling/emailing people for informational interviews tomorrow and try to get some more info on the best course of action for me, and how to find an biotech industry postdoc. If anyone knows a good way to get one, lemme know. :)
The sad thing is I'm resigned to the fact of the money...I can deal with it. Hopefully some day ti will pay off, but I can deal. I want to get into management/project oversight anyway, so this is all towards that someday. :)
Pinballjim, uh, can I come to the next party? I wont ask for a job...I'll 'informational get smashed'. :) (Plan on trying to try to set up some of those tomorrow).
What makes things great is the Prof. Im working for now knows people (at least 2) at places I applied to. He didnt know why I was like 'Oh...my god...why didnt you tell me earlier when I asked if you knew anyone in biotech?'
Again, thanks all...Keeping on a happy face, realizing getting a PhD was...more then I expected :). Didn't realize it was at least a decade (phd+postdoc(s)) commitment.
Time for another rum and coke to dull the realization. :)
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You'll find once you get into the field, any field really, that project managers are not the skilled, educated workers. They are 45 year old MBAs with well groomed hair.
That's all it takes to move way up the ladder with velocity. An MBA and well groomed hair.
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...and $200,000 paychecks. :)
Honestly, I'm think part of the reason I'm freaking out is getting a job fast would have lessened me actually thinking about what I want to do. As it is now, I don't KNOW if I want to do research forever, run my own lab, etc.
I like the overarcing idea of being a Chief Science Officer...overseeing all projects, not having a specific specialty but getting involved in everything a bit, having people inform you about different aspects of tons of things, consulting where you can, etc. but I know there's no way for me to do that now...it's frustrating not know how to get there, if there's even a way to do that.
Ah well...guess I better make sure I get keep some hair :).
(Grad School = few year delay in figuring out what to do with your life.)
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I like the overarcing idea of being a Chief Science Officer...overseeing all projects, not having a specific specialty but getting involved in everything a bit, having people inform you about different aspects of tons of things, consulting where you can, etc. but I know there's no way for me to do that now...it's frustrating not know how to get there, if there's even a way to do that.
You can do it, but you have to start somewhere low and work your way up. How old are you? That kind of position goes to really seasoned people. Unless you're already in your 40's, what are you worried about? Plenty of time to gain the experience and work up the ladder.
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Yeah, I see that too. He seems to be thinking about positions that are 15 years off.
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Necro,
Any chance you could stay put for a while longer and do a post-doc? You might get more opportunities in the furure that way.
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I like the overarcing idea of being a Chief Science Officer...overseeing all projects, not having a specific specialty but getting involved in everything a bit, having people inform you about different aspects of tons of things, consulting where you can, etc. but I know there's no way for me to do that now...it's frustrating not know how to get there, if there's even a way to do that.
You can do it, but you have to start somewhere low and work your way up. How old are you? That kind of position goes to really seasoned people. Unless you're already in your 40's, what are you worried about? Plenty of time to gain the experience and work up the ladder.
You know what, I'd like to ammend my opinion here. Truth is you COULD bullshoot your way into a top job like that. But everyone below you will grow to hate you. ;D
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Farmecologis, I'm thinking of post-docs and now I'm scared I'm going to pick the 'wrong one'. But I am looking. I need to move into more human centric stuff from what I was doing in flies (developed a model system for studying innate immune responses in flies, novel work and first one to show a viral response in flies. Kind of cool...) So I want to get more adaptive immune response experience and direct human research experience as well instead of model systems.
Basically, I'm having sleepless nights, etc., worrying about not being able to have a career in 10-20 years. I'm 28 now...so, not 'young' but not insanely old for a PhD. On the youngish edge...I just see all these people that graduated 5 years ago with their BS's that are established and it scared the bejusus out of me because now I'm 'over qualified' for their positions, but can't get a PhD level position because I'm underqualified (this was what people told me over at a big science careers website forum - basically, they won't hire PhD's for BS/MS jobs because of prior experience where most PhDs get very bored in the jobs and quit because they can't 'lead' anything at all. That and if you do get one, your going down a path where you can't become a 'big researcher' later on...double edged sword. :/
That was basically what induced my original post...
...so...when DO you figure out what you want to do when you grow up? :)
;)
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...so...when DO you figure out what you want to do when you grow up? :)
;)
about 50. several middle aged people have told me that. don't panic. there are many really good jobs out there where they look for highly educated people but not necessarily related to that field. the brother of an ex of mine did a degree in engineering or something and now is the director on the board of a company that is into IT. there's no way he would have known that was how things would pan out. I myself have no degrees and less options than you. but i'm quite positive about the future and i know i will find something i like (eventually).
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I'm just waiting for all the damn baby boomers to retire in the next few years.... there will be plenty of job opp's and good salaries to go with them
28 is pretty young ... and you have knocked out your PHD already...... Ever think of becoming a contractor and going to Iraq? They are always looking for people to help rebuild everything over there and you can easily walk out with 125K+ in your pocket after a year.... gotta watch out and not get blown up though. ;)
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Is this horse dead yet?
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No, it's one HELL of a horse.
I think I saw it in a video with some queen or something.
:)
And Iraq, who would have thought :) hehe.
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I gotcher horse.
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THE HORSE! OHHHHHH! IT JUST KEEPS BOUNCING EVERY TIME THEY STRIKE IT! OH THE HUMANITY!
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can this thread just die allready?
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can this thread just die allready?
Doesn't look like it....
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OH THE HUMANITY!
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THE HORSE IS BACK!!!
Well, not really. I gots me a jobey job. ;D
So it all worked out in the end.
*beats on that horse some more* It's not dead yet!
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What's the job?
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THE HORSE IS BACK!!!
Well, not really. I gots me a jobey job. ;D
So it all worked out in the end.
*beats on that horse some more* It's not dead yet!
Well, welcome back to the world of the Zombies Working Class
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What's the job?
5 words
"may I take your order"
and
"Would you like it super-sized"
well is super-sized one word or two? it's got a hyphen so I'm thinking it's two words formed to make one word...
ba,h well anyway... One Big Mac, fries and a large coke.... to go.............
congrates... I'm sure you'll make Ronald proud
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BTW, MC dun like them college boys.
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What's the job?
Male Gigolo...
:-X
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My man will stick he d1ck in a he-monkey.
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(http://postpurgatory.com/bunk/harpal.gif) has a job too