The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: cholin on January 12, 2006, 04:32:06 pm
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Alright, so over the summer I was supposed to work for someone in the US, whose name will not be disclosed. Over the turn of things, only part of the work was complete, and the rest was basically let go. We had a signed agreement for $750 USD, but Im starting to wonder if its really legal since he's in the united states and im in canada, something about an international agreement?
But when the work was let off on my part (it was in the contract that either could cancel), we agreed on 200 USD for the work that had already been done and tested personally by me. He said that a cheque was in the mail, which was a lie. Then he insisted on mid-january. Now, he says that I didnt do anything because his server apparently had to be formatted due to errors that I created, even though it was tested by me and an *exact* copy of his previous server's settings.
This 200 dollar agreement was never signed or anything, an implied agreement over MSN Messenger.
So... now he's refusing to pay me, and I doubt MSN Chat logs will be a decent evidence...
"****************** says:
let's see:
1. Agreement made Internationally - meaning different laws and regulations
2. No written agreement
3. Agreement made over the Internet (online - again weak laws), so it can't even be considered oral.
*************************** says:
BTW, do I know you?
*********************** says:
who are you and what's this server thing you are talking about?"
So hes playing stupid now to avoid the law.
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You're SOL as you didn't bother to get it in writing nor did you bother to finish the work.
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Not only that, in order to get your $200, you're gonna have to pay tons more than $200 to recoup it
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So Im screwed over and I shoudl just give up?
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I don't even see it as you being screwed over. You say you didn't do the work. In his mind he was probably paying $750 for a completed job that you did not provide.
With a small job like that if you don't complete it you don't get paid.
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No, I did do work. I set up a new server and merged his content into it, which is a seperate job on its own, sort of a sub-part of the main coding job. We then agreed on 200 bucks, which isnt documented legally.
Still screwed over?
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Whatever the point of view on the work, you are not going to get paid.
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yea give up. I have been there, and have even taken these things to court. It usually STARTS at $1000-1500 to afford a lawyer that will fight it. If you haven't got at least 3 times that coming to you its not worth your time and money.
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Might be able to take it to Judge Judy... I'm sure that'd make some great TV.
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If that happens, you GOTTA tell us!
My brother-in-law was offered a Judge Judy spot because he owed some dude some money. THEY PAY THE MONEY FOR YOU! All you have to do is sign a waiver for them, and agree to show up. If you watch that show, they usually deal in chump change cases, but you've gotta go through possible nationwide embarassment, something I'm betting that dude isn't gonna sign on for, since he'll just screw you the normal way, like he already is.
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THEY PAY THE MONEY FOR YOU! All you have to do is sign a waiver for them, and agree to show up.
Anyone want to split half the money they "owe" me and get on TV?
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You have to file in your area first. I already thought of this as a way to finance my cab ;D
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HAHAHA I love the system, yet I hate it. Oh well, consider it a loss I guess.
BTW, TheBrownShow, I do recall owing you something like 600 bucks or something :)
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No, I did do work.
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Question: After you agreed to $200, did you send an invoice?
Normally this would go in small claims, with you representing yourself. But you aren't in the same jurisdictions.
Then the next option would be hiring a collection agency (they take a percentage). But no collection agency will take on a tiny amount like that. $200 is nothing. Well, to a $15 year old it's alot. To me it's my monthly credit card bill.
I've had to eat debts in the range of $3000 (us). It's not pleasant, but it happens. >:(
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No, I did do work. I set up a new server and merged his content into it, which is a seperate job on its own, sort of a sub-part of the main coding job. We then agreed on 200 bucks, which isnt documented legally.
Still screwed over?
Did you say you were 15 years old? If so, in the US you cannot legally enter into an agreement until you are 18.
Regardless, you are SOL.
Good point. So only the contract would be legal because in Canada you cant either, but if you have a "witness" over 18 then its legalized. So im TOTALLY screwed. Oh well, only like 200 bucks (scarcasm... 200 bucks is alot to a teenager :))
Question: After you agreed to $200, did you send an invoice?
Normally this would go in small claims, with you representing yourself. But you aren't in the same jurisdictions.
Then the next option would be hiring a collection agency (they take a percentage). But no collection agency will take on a tiny amount like that. $200 is nothing. Well, to a $15 year old it's alot. To me it's my monthly credit card bill.
I've had to eat debts in the range of $3000 (us). It's not pleasant, but it happens. >:(
No invoice... Im done.
NEW QUESTION: Anybody know any laymens terms law agreements that can protect someone from something like this? I need some sort of legal advice if Im gonna do something like this, just cant afford a lawyer for a side-job.
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NEW QUESTION:
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Man, I'm probably not being fair here, but I'm on the American's side. A guy came recently and installed some Cisco firewalls on a couple of my networks and left his job half-finished and it was such a damned headache for me. I'd need more information before I felt like he owed anything.
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Yeah, if he did a half-assed job, he doesnt deserve full pay.
On the other hand, if you said "dude dont bother just leave it like that and ill give ya half the money" hes right.
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I dunno what stores you have up there, but Office Depot around here has "EZ Contract" kits for whatever you might need. Honestly though, it's not worth the money you'll spend on 'em. Put something in writing, deal strictly with cash (if that's not possible, demand payment up front, or half up front, the other half when the job is done).
It's just the price of doing business. My contracts state that any nails, screws, or adhesives remain my property and are strictly on loan until payment in full is rendered, I am to be given a house key for access to the house, and the time frame for access granted to me to enter the house is usually given as one month longer than I think I'll need to finish the job. If I'm ever hosed on payment (never have been for THOSE types of jobs), it's explained when they (ALWAYS happens) ask me about that clause in the contract. It's simple. If you don't pay me, I'll be back to pick up my screws, nails, and adhesives.
I also don't pay for materials. That's the other person's responsibility, and the determining factor on when work starts. I give them a list, and will not start until everything on that list is there for me. For your work, I'd figure out some way to image your work and transfer it over only after completion and/or payment for services rendered.
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When I photograph a wedding, our studio policy is that the total amount due for the wedding package must be paid before the wedding day.
Why?
Before that policy I had two couples get divorced within weeks after the wedding day and neither wanted the pictures. Now we have signed contracts and payment up front. That takes a lot of pressure off on the Wedding day because if they don't do what they were supposed to do, I still get paid the same. The burden is on them to live up to their side of the agreement.
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DrewKaree, I really like that policy, bet people dont mess with you on that one :)
I figured anything that was written and signed (witnessed too for under 18) was legal. Apparently, there are international contracts you have to make, and since most people I work with are from the US, anybody know about this?
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you learned a $200 lesson. Move on, and remember what you can do next time to get paid.
Oh, and don't take any jobs over MSN messenger.
Art
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Actually it wasnt over MSN Messenger, the conversation went through that and thats how the second agreement came into place......
200 dollar lesson!? I could have taken a PHP test for that price :( Or bought my house automation server :( Or (some other thing!)
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But no collection agency will take on a tiny amount like that. $200 is nothing.
Hey ... I just got a notice from an agency over a $25 amount that I apparently owe to DHL for taxes/handling on a shipment from Andy (never did see the original invoice and it would have been almost a year ago now).
Cheers.
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HAHAHAHA well that sucks! Unexpected charges... pfft.
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200 dollar lesson!?
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HAH, man, think about it... teenager without a cell phone = no bills. I can wire a house, therefore, sooped up room... I already have the toys I want:
minifridge stocked with vokda, pepsi ( i like pepsi !! ), shmirnoff, and orange juice.
laptop that i paid for
computer that i paid for
1500 watt surround sound system with speakers in the ceiling
6 printers
code-lock operated door with key backup
laser operated home security system (more of a tracking device to see whos walking where)
and the best of all: wireless lights all set up, awaiting relays from china.
Sure, I may be bragging (again), but I think thats a decent amount of "toys" to a 15 year old..... Oh, and dont forget the wallet :P Still need to order some buttons, im a bargain hunter by nature so i just cant push myself to spend 50 bucks on joysticks (mag-stik plus -- top of the line imo) and then 50 bucks on translucent buttons....
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You can put this in the "If I knew then what I know now" column, but when I first got some cash from my first jobs and whatnot, I should have stuck that in the bank instead of "investing" in a bunch of crap that was just going to go in my attic.... an attic that I would have had 5 years earlier if I was smart, I might add.
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cholin, do some investigative work, try and find his phone number and start talking to him on the phone, of course you would need his city, address, etc. if you got it.
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Cholin
let me start by saying everyone who said this wouldn't be worth the time of an attorney is correct. For example, my billing rate is somewhere over$250 an hour and I'm a mid level associate at my firm. Small claims is your best bet.
That being said, contracts with 18 year olds ARE valid even in the US. The deal is that they are voidable at your discretion, but if you void the contract, you have to return anything you received. Sort of a "deal at your own risk" for the other party. (I'm really glosing over a lot here, but you get the idea) However, if you want to enforce the contract you can.
Next is the idea of complete performance. Been a long time since I took contracts, but as I recall, you are NOT screwed for your partial performance since you negotiated separately for what you did. Basically, you conferred a benefit on this guy. Sure this guy can say "what benefit...my computer doesn't work." However one measure of the value of the benefit conferred is the value of the services rendered. That part was worth $200 to you and he owes it. Assuming your records are good, you have a decent chance of winning, but you will have a problem getting this guy into court and it's likely not worth your time.
for the record...I've been screwed over operation thunderbolt guns I purchased through e-bay using paypal that were never delivered. I won the paypal "inquiry" but the money had already been removed from the account and the guy is unresponsive. $60 bucks lost and gone forever.
I feel for you. Take it as life lesson learned. Sorry
Patent Doc
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I would at least send the guy an actual invoice. Perhaps then he would treat you more professionally, and maybe even pay it...
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I would at least send the guy an actual invoice. Perhaps then he would treat you more professionally, and maybe even pay it...
I agree entirely.
Cheers.
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That being said, contracts with 18 year olds ARE valid even in the US.
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Chad
Sorry for the confusion. I really should read what I type and edit better. That said, contracts with persons UNDER 18 are valid, but VOIDABLE in the US.
It doesn't matter that he was 15 the other party can't use that as a shield to invalidate the contract only the minor can. Otherwise, it's totally enforceable.
Patent Doc
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Good to know, I wasn't aware that only one side could invalidate the contract.
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Yeah, it's amazing what fun little tidbits of info you can learn in law school.
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What am I missing? The way I am viewing this now, a minor could intentionally enter a contract with an adult, reap the benefits, and then simply invalidate the contract based on their own age.
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hot dam.....assuming a company would offer you a contract at a young age ( which they won't , speaking hypothetically ) You could get a cell phone contract at age 15 and just void it and not be penalized ?
Tim
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Heh. When I was 13 I signed up for the Columbia Record Club (or whatever it was called). I got my 13 cassettes in the mail and then when my mother found out she sent them a letter saying I was underage and that they were to terminate their relationship with me. I never had to pay. :)
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That's pretty much exactly right. The law is set up to protect minors from being exploited, because they are presumably dumber and easy to manipulate by adults. If both parties could void the contract it would defeat the underlying reason for the law (to protect minors). That's how I understand it from what I remember of my business law class in highschool like 10 years ago. So, while it gives minors the possible ability to screw adults, it is assumed that adults are much better equipped already to avoid being manipulated by an unethical minor and don't need special protection. I would tend to agree.
edit: I might add that minors tend to be rather innocent, while adults, in general, are evil, ungrateful ---uvulas---.
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Wow, the things you learn on a forum....
So, if I invoice him and he just says "no" what would happen?
Im also tellin him parts of this so he knows that what he's said is bullsh*t and that I now know that... so it looks like I might at least get a percentage of it.
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Wow, the things you learn on a forum....
So, if I invoice him and he just says "no" what would happen?
Im also tellin him parts of this so he knows that what he's said is bullsh*t and that I now know that... so it looks like I might at least get a percentage of it.
I believe in the US you can report that against his credit as non-paying. (Not sure of the procedure, or if you are able, since you most likely don't have a US d.b.a.) If you can, at the very least you can sting him a little for having you do some work and then re-negging on the deal...
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Oh, that would do just fine! Imagine you just turned 18 and youre trying to apply for a credit card, the only credit you really have recently is that you didnt pay someone!
HA :D I can just imagine it. Anybody confirm this while im lookin on google?
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Also, if I were to sue, I can sue him for court charges too right? Ive seen that on TV all the time, so its gotta be true! :P
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Well, you can sue him for court charges, but you still risk losing. And as mentioned, we are kind of doubtful that you have a business license in the U.S. which could pose problems (d.b.a. stands for doing business as, IIRC, and it's basically the simplest way to set up a sole proprietor business). At any rate, if you don't have a business license it might complicate reporting to someone's credit that they didn't pay you. Or maybe not. I really don't have the first idea and am just talking out ---my bottom---.
Either way, it might make for an official sounding threat that could get some cooporation out of him if he's too lazy to do some research and call your bluff.
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Hes got lawyers, I know that, but I also know he wont spend the money to contact them. Im trying to pull this off, and I dont have a US business registerred. Im only partially legal in Ontario since I personally ocntacted some of the people working at the ontario business board. Im holidng out till next summer because they have a "youth program" that offers grants to people who cna keep a new business running throughout the summer, which should be no problem. So as long as its not legal right now, I can just say im running as a person who sells stuff for fun, but next summer they will do all the hard stuff and Ill end up with a legal business and up to 3 grand CAD to spend on what I please...
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hot dam.....assuming a company would offer you a contract at a young age ( which they won't , speaking hypothetically ) You could get a cell phone contract at age 15 and just void it and not be penalized ?
Tim
Which is why all these kids have to have their PARENTS sign up for a phone so they can annoy the crap outta you in movie theaters.
In the state of NC, you can't sue for court charges. I'm not certain what the law is in WI, since I never have had reason to take someone to court here, but I'm assuming the law will vary from state to state. You CAN sue for emotional distress or whatever the "OMG I'LL NEVR BE TEH SAYM AGAIN!" is called. That's the little "workaround", and I'm not sure it'd apply in this instance.
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LOL gotta love the good old "IT RUINED MY LIFE" thing :)
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Cholin
due to the price of your claim you are likely stuck in small claims court depends on how the court system is set up in your area. If you do plan on filing a suit, go to a local law school. Often law schools have pro bono (free) legal sessions to give their students experience. The help will be pretty good and it will almost have to be supervised by a bar certified attorney (not legal to practice law otherwise). They can help you file the suit and navigate the system (this isn't trivial to do). Alternatively, look for a lawyer willing to take you on pro bono. Then file the suit. If you have all your ducks in a row, he'll settle without trial. As someone said covering court costs depends on the jurisdiction so look for that. Even if you lose, you still kindof win because his legal fees will cost him more than it would have cost just to pay you and end it. You save costs by using free legal work.
Anyway, that's my advice.
Shmokes - nice retention on a legal class from high school. Must have been one hell of a class. Keep it up you'll make a great attorney. I am right that law school is the goal once you finish school ...correct?
Patent Doc