The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: ChadTower on January 01, 2006, 12:09:03 pm
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Okay, I bought my house with the intention of finishing the basement. Clearly I'm never going to acquire enough skills and time to do it myself... to give a rough idea, it's ~775 feet of open space with the stairs in the center. Concrete slab, cold but no water issues.
To get a basic finishing job on this, enough electrical for a gameroom (there are only a couple outlets scattered now)... rough jab at a cost for a skilled pro? We're talking no plumbing at this point.
Then, maybe after that, have a bathroom added where the washer and dryer are, which would require some small plumbing but also a sewage ejector pump as the output line is about 3 feet off the floor.
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are you wanting carpet or flooring also?
So you need Drywall and Flooring?
Drywall you should put up yourself then hire someone to puddy and sand it(cause that part sucks)
Drywalling is really easy.
The flooring is another issue cause it depends what kind of carpet you buy(cost), then the install.
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No, like I said, the outlets are insufficient. There are two real grounded outlets and one is dedicated for the washer and dryer.
The moisture checks have been made and I would be coating the walls and floors with a moisture seal first anyway... we have a strong dehumidifier down here and it barely even kicks on during the winter. We do have to empty it about every two days during the summer, though that should lessen once we seal the floor and walls.
I just don't know anything about drywalling or framing. I don't know anything about carpentry in general and it has already been 3-4 years waiting for me to get the time to figure it out. I'd rather pay and get it done before I'm 40.
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Framing and Drywalling is really an easy job.
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I haven't actually built a cab, but have worked on tons of them at this point. I'm sure I would have the capability, but the way it works for me, is I get two weeks with lots of time to work, then 3 months pass before I can touch any of it again.
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Okay, I bought my house with the intention of finishing the basement. Clearly I'm never going to acquire enough skills and time to do it myself... to give a rough idea, it's ~775 feet of open space with the stairs in the center. Concrete slab, cold but no water issues.
To get a basic finishing job on this, enough electrical for a gameroom (there are only a couple outlets scattered now)... rough jab at a cost for a skilled pro? We're talking no plumbing at this point.
Then, maybe after that, have a bathroom added where the washer and dryer are, which would require some small plumbing but also a sewage ejector pump as the output line is about 3 feet off the floor.
Chad, your situation with the setup is identical to what my brother-in-law has/had. He's a carpenter, and got a deal (free) on a bunch of metal studs - enough to do the entire basement. I'll take pics of it - hopefully on Tuesday if we get together like normal - and post 'em here for folks to see. I'll also try to get him to give me some rough estimates for what he'd charge to do things, and I'll see if I can separate it out because I know there's things he did that folks might not want, and therefore would like to remove that price.
As far as the bathroom, he thought the same thing as you, and it turned out that he was able to bust out some of the floor and simply tie into the waste stack with no problems. I'll also see if I can find out how he determined that.
He's got the same center stairs setup. When you get to the bottom of the stairs, to your left and forward, there's the bar and its seating area. To the left and behind, there's a living area/computer area. To the right and forward, there's a nice opening for an antique hutch for glass storage, and behind that wall is his workshop. To the right and behind, there's a bathroom with a shower stall in there, probably about 8x6 or so, and then a separate laundry room.
I'll give you some more info as soon as possible. I'll tell you though, if you can frame the walls in yourself, which shouldn't be difficult for you at all (just some studs laid out according to basic carpentry standards), that'll take a decent chunk out of the cost for you. If you insulate yourself (again, a VERY easy step to complete yourself), you've taken a lot of the time-consuming part of the job out of the equation, and that's SERIOUSLY very easy stuff. A miter saw would speed it up for you, but a circ saw will be fine (I wouldn't trust a jigsaw for making a job like this easy). A hammer or drill will allow you to fasten everything together, and you can rent a Hilti (a nail gun that used .22 loads to drive nails into concrete) for cheap, or buy one if you think you might use it again. The basic formwork is VERY easy to do, and you'd probably want to pay an electrician to run outlets if you're not confident in doing that.
I don't know why, but I'm all jazzed. Why don't you live closer, I'd help ya, ya dork! ;D
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Heh, I figure if I actually knew how, I'd have it done by now... but, like so many other things, the addition of having to learn on the fly means extending the time out by years.
What is the waste stack?
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I'm finishing my second basement. My first I did a lot of work myself, but this one I'm just hiring it out as the money comes in.
Right now, I have two bedrooms (one that is really an office), bathroom and a shared walk in closet done. That is about 25% of the basement. The rest is ready for drywall.
I spent about $6000 doing the two bedrooms/bath, including carpet and everything.
The rest, since there is no plumbing, will probably cost around $8000.
The basement is probably around 2000 sq feet.
I'll build my own bar again.
Really, the flooring cost sucks. and I agree with previous poster, I MIGHT do my own drywall, and let someone else finish it.
I love basements.
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Ah, I don't plan on any bedrooms... we already have three + a study that could easily be converted. I want rec area, basically, since that we do not have.
My first task is trying to get rid of as much of the crap down here as I can... it's just shelves and stuff stacked everywhere.
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First go with metal studs, you'll get super straight wall and they are a way less hassel. I also added a bathroom to my basement, not too hard to break up the concrete for the plumbing but I had to add and ejector pit also. Are you planning on doing the wiring yourself?
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metal studs = measure once, cut once, if they are too short, no big deal.
easier than wood.
art
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First go with metal studs, you'll get super straight wall and they are a way less hassel. I also added a bathroom to my basement, not too hard to break up the concrete for the plumbing but I had to add and ejector pit also. Are you planning on doing the wiring yourself?
I may run the wiring myself but terminations would have to be done by a licensed electrician, legally, IIRC.
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I added a separate 20 amp breaker with the proper 12 ga (not 14) wire and 20 amp outlet.
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Okay, since it is a basement you might consider baseboard heaters when doing your wiring. I love mine and they have built in thermostats. For flooring, I just used comercial vinyle tile, I think it looks cool and is cheap and easy to work with. Also if by chance you do get water down there all you have to do is mop it up. I have a few snap shots of my basement under my project announcement if ya want ta take a peek. Puttin in the extra bathroom was easier than expected, but I didn't put a shower in, instead I put a toilet, sink and urinal. I figured that's where most of the parties would end up and I always wanted my own urinal. All in all, once you get your floor planed the rest will fall in place.
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Hey dmsuchy your basement looks great, it doesn't even look like a basement.
Were those tiles the 12" x 12" peel and stick, or something else, they look really nice whatever they are.
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I'm finishing my own basement now. This is my second (in laws was first). The thing that I hate the most is painting on the Dry Lock to the walls. I hate painting, and slopping that stuff on and hanging plastic afterwards for the seal just sucks to me. I like the framing because I used metal this time and have a Dewalt self leveling laser, so application is amazingly simple to have perfect walls. My inlaws walls had a little bow and I used wood. Without the laser, it would have looked terrible. The one thing I'm having issues with in deciding wether or not to put that heated flooring undereath the carpet and I believe that I have decided on a fancy drop ceiling instead of drywall.
Anyways...... Chad, I would say you would be looking at ten large to have a contractor do the work. There is a lot of things involved with the project. While non are rocket science, it takes various skills that will certainly be a premium to have done. In my opinion, this type of project is one that you just have to make a decision as to what is worth paying for and what is not.
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What is the waste stack?
That's probably called something different in your area, and I'm probably not even describing it correctly for my area. You need to tie your plumbing into the rest of the house plumbing, and that will almost certainly be called "soil pipe" no matter where you live. That's the main pipe that takes all the crap (literally) to the sewer system from your house. You also need to tie into the venting system already in your house, mebbe called the waste vent (not positive on the name), to vent the sewage vapors so your house doesn't STINK like a sewer. Dunno, but mebbe someone else can verify - is the sewage vapor also combustible/explosive?
The floor my BIL did is carpet and Pergo in the bar/living area, and tile in the other. You can make the flooring easy (somewhat) if you lay a vapor barrier down (basically a layer of plastic to separate the concrete from the building materials), sleepers over that (2x4's laid flat), insulation (that thick polystyrene-type pink stuff) between the sleepers, and then do a regular floor. That'll help with heating too. He didn't do ANY baseboard heating, just added grilles to the HVAC that was already running to the upstairs, and the insualtion job he did is so effective, the heating vents are almost always closed, and the AC is barely needed to keep it cool in the summer.
Jack's right, my BIL did say using metal studs is the only way he'd go for another basement, but they did cost more at the time he built (which is why he'd have gone with wood if he didn't get the metal ones free at the time). Wood might be the more expensive material now.
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Framing:
http://library.livinghome.com/DIY/Framing-Tips.htm (http://library.livinghome.com/DIY/Framing-Tips.htm)
http://www.michaelholigan.com - Framing (http://www.michaelholigan.com/Departments/TVShow/seg_tscript.asp?ts%5Fid=6129&text%5Ftype=S&text%5Fpage=1&mscssid=CSRG9W6VUR4N9JBGC2RALA8AHNK64UL9)
video:
http://www.mhetv.com:8080/ss?click&mhetv1&41af7e29 (http://www.mhetv.com:8080/ss?click&mhetv1&41af7e29)
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Drew... if I can ID the pipe you're talking about, it is about chest height in the basement wall. We don't have town sewer, we have a cesspool, and the cesspool is probably about 20 feet away in the yard.
I don't think just painting the walls is an option here... I want it to be regular livable space and it's 55 degrees down here right now. Heating it without insulating/finishing would be impossible.
I do have a brand new electrical panel, though, as we discovered the one we got with the house, even though only about ten years old, was rotted through because the input conduit wasn't sealed off properly. That is now fixed, the new panel cost us a grand, but there is lots of extra room on this one. I am looking at it now and there are ten empty slots plus a couple of double breakers that don't seem to actually power anything.
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Drew... if I can ID the pipe you're talking about, it is about chest height in the basement wall. We don't have town sewer, we have a cesspool, and the cesspool is probably about 20 feet away in the yard.
And if I'm correct, you have to have that thing pumped out every so often, right? Yeah, that's a whole different situation deal then, and I'd bet you're correct in having to have a pump installed in a basement bathroom.
With those temps, which sound about like ours in WI, it may cost you a touch more to do it (and you may lose some height, which might be a factor with low ceilings in a basement), but you'll find that insulating your floor is a HUGE benefit and your floor won't be so cold as to be unbearable over longer periods of time.
Keep flipping those double breakers that don't seem to power anything. Stingray will be SO confused about why his kitchen appliances don't seem to work ;)
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And if I'm correct, you have to have that thing pumped out every so often, right? Yeah, that's a whole different situation deal then, and I'd bet you're correct in having to have a pump installed in a basement bathroom.
Yes, cesspool is the predecessor to the modern septic tank. Just as effective, lesser capacity. We have it pumped every June and every month we flush some stuff that add bacteria to the mix.
With those temps, which sound about like ours in WI, it may cost you a touch more to do it (and you may lose some height, which might be a factor with low ceilings in a basement), but you'll find that insulating your floor is a HUGE benefit and your floor won't be so cold as to be unbearable over longer periods of time.
The floor is going to be a challenge that way. We can't lose more than maybe two inches before it gets cramped. I've already figured that rather than a drop ceiling I'm going to paint the joists and put tiles in between them, keeping max ceiling height on that side.
Keep flipping those double breakers that don't seem to power anything. Stingray will be SO confused about why his kitchen appliances don't seem to work ;)
Heh... I think they may have been added for future expansion into central air but we're not going to do that anyway.
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"Dunno, but mebbe someone else can verify - is the sewage vapor also combustible/explosive?"
Didja ever light a fart on fire?
My house has a single stack for the main soil pipe/vent. Is this common? I've seen references to different vent systems elsewhere...
I'd love to refinish my basement, but the 6' ceiling makes it tough. :)
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Never lit a fart on fire, but I know if you waited a second, you can't magically start the room on fire by lighting a match. I'm wondering if when gathered in large quantities it just smells terrible or if it's a danger to the house.
I think the single stack thing depends on code in your area but it doesn't sound uncommon
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Keeping in mind, raw sewage is a source of methane gas...In enough concentation, you can have a real problem with out proper venting. Up here in Manitoba, I've only ever seen vent stacks the go up though the roof for just such a purpose...Not sure if there are other methods <I'm on an actualy sewer system, not septic>
Personally I'm a fan of wood studs over metal...Metal has a tandancy to be razer sharp when cut, and you need to pay special attention when running powerlines though them...One little nick, or a little water in the wrong place and your whole frame is energized.
Xar256 ;D
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you can't magically start the room on fire by lighting a match
But it would be pretty cool.
I'm having split pea and ham soup for lunch. I'll let you know how it goes.
Last confined space entry class I had to take told us that methane is only flammable in air between 5 and 15 % concentration.
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I'm having split pea and ham soup for lunch
What are you in prison cause nobody in the free world eats that unless they are forced too.
:D
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Metal studs are much cheaper than wood, but they can be razor sharp as mentioned. As long as your careful and have a pair of tin stips, you can do your whole basement easy. Also if your waste stack is going into the wall at chest height than your's is the same as mine. I dug another pit and had to put an ejector/grinder pump to push it up to the sewage exit. Still not too bad. Finishing a basement can be fun and easy as long as you take your time. And a good mudder can make your walls look perfect no matter of some screw ups.
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I'm having split pea and ham soup for lunch
What are you in prison cause nobody in the free world eats that unless they are forced too.
:D
It was all WaWa had left after the lunch rush. I wanted soup. Beggars can't be choosers.
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Beggars can't be choosers.
Sure they can... they just stay hungry too :)
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Hrm... metal studs... I'll look into that.
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Hrm... metal studs... I'll look into that.
If you use metal studs and plan on using baseboards, its recommended that you use wood for your footer and then run the metal lower track on the wood. As it'll make your life easier when nailing in the baseboards
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I won't be using baseboards, my house is forced hot air.
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I got a feeling he meant molding/trim wise, not heating. Although with the air nailer, molding goes right onto the metal studs quite nicely.
"my house is forced hot air"
Too easy.
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Too easy indeed.
Less easy - I'll nail my metal studs in yr mouth.
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Personally I'm a fan of wood studs over metal...Metal has a tandancy to be razer sharp when cut, and you need to pay special attention when running powerlines though them...One little nick, or a little water in the wrong place and your whole frame is energized.
Who DOESN'T know that metal is sharp when cut? And the only special attention for running electrical is to remember to put those little dickringers in each opening. Mission or Jack have them in stock if you need to buy 'em. ;D
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Who DOESN'T know that metal is sharp when cut?
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Bones has a kitten-killing machine. No one should have ever known that, but he seems quite proud of it.
And we'll stick our noses wherever we think they need to be. You're not the boss of us ;D
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Who DOESN'T know that metal is sharp when cut? And the only special attention for running electrical is to remember to put those little dickringers in each opening. Mission or Jack have them in stock if you need to buy 'em. ;D
You might be surprised just how stupid some people can be...Plus it's more a matter of having to be more carefull when working with this stuff so an errant finger doesn't get sliced wide open when you try to catch a falling stud.
A lot of folks here like sticking their noses where they don't belong...Who knows where their fingers may end up... :angel:
Xar256 ;D
how often do studs fall while you are framing?!? Yes metal is sharper than wood, but simple common sense and a bit of care can avoid most accidents... wood or metal.
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And we'll stick our noses wherever we think they need to be.
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Can we just agree that if I use metal studs I'll wear gloves?
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Can we just agree that if I use metal studs I'll wear gloves?
no
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Wearing gloves doesn't help when you're supposed to use your neck to lift 'em up ;)
Headed off to take pics for you in a few minutes. I'll post 'em when I take 'em off the camera tomorrow-ish
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Oh sweet and unexpected.
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Here ya go. Heading down the stairs:
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When you hit the bottom of the stairs, if you turned to your right, this is what you'd see. That doorway is the bathroom, and the light in the back is the laundry area. I was requested NOT to take pics of the "dirty" areas, so that's as far back as I go for now.
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Hitting the bottom of the stairs, heading straight forward, and turning to the right, here's the area built to fit the glassware hutch. Behind that wall is his workshop, to the right of the workshop is the laundry room you glimpsed in the previous photo. Sorry that some of these pics will be blurry, but I didn't have a lot of time to snap off these few
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Turning left from the same spot as the last pic, you'll see behind the bar. Behind that rock wall is a closet built to hold the fridge that houses the kegs for the tappers, and the lines are run right through the side of the fridge, through the wall, and under the wet sink to the tapper. This bar is a 4 seater and has a mini fridge for soda and whatnot. The chairs are from a barber shop that was closing down.
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Sorry about the terrible blur. Here you can see the seating area and the built-in liquor shelves. I think there was a mirror in there somewhere which contributed to some of this.
The seating area is about one good sized step (think of a "Simon says" step you'd take) from the bottom of the stairs and off to the left. To the left and behind the stairs is the living area which wasn't able to be photographed today. You might be able to get an idea in the next pic about how large it is. He's got his big screen down here too - 55 incher.
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Here's a straight on shot of the bar. Taken while standing a few feet in front of the big screen. You can see in the last pic the closet for the fridge, and in this one, off to the left, you can see it as well. This may give you a little better idea of scale.
Of all the stuff here, just finishing the walls (drywall, chair rail, popcorn finish on the walls, paint, and insulation) I was told would run between 4K-8K depending on how much of the basement you wanted finished off. He's only got a quarter of the basement without drywall. No popcorn, no chair rail, with equal amounts of walls finished would be ~5K
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A bar would run you ~ 1500-2000, and the bathroom with what you require (the pump and other issues that may arise) would probably be kinda costly due to your special needs, probably ~2-3K
Framing everything out yourself, he'd think would reduce your costs by about half. That'd leave drywall, painting, plumbing, and various other little things.
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That's actually not too bad... looks a little claustrophobic down there but that may just be the pics.
I don't really need popcorn finish since most of the wall space will be covered with stuff like cabs and projector screen. A decent warm color paint job will do nicely. I'm not going drop ceiling, as mentioned before, because of the height issue. I'm actually going to paint the joists and put tiles between them in order to keep as much height as possible. I'm also going to minimize how far up I come with the floor. This will probably add some cost but ceiling height is one place I want to be as maximal as possible.
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I understand where you're coming from with the ceiling height and all, but just keep something in the back of your mind...If you put up a permanent (say drywall) ceiling, it's almost guaranteed, that you'll have a leaky pipe, or need to run a new power cable, that can be a real ---smurfette--- if you have to cut holes all over the place in your brand new ceiling a year down the road. ( I have a similar situation at my mom's place when I'm doing work...I hate it)
Make sure you make take that into account if you can.
Xar256 ;D
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Dude, I've said at least twice, including in the last post here, that I'm going to put tiles between painted floor joists.
That would be a custom drop ceiling, not drywall or anything permanent. It's easy. Take some thin wood strips, nail them to the lower inside of the joists. Cut some panels to use as tiles, paint them as well...
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Chad, I know you're more of DIYer than you're letting on here. You're more than capable of framing, doing the drywall and taping & mudding. There's nothing about it that's terribly difficult. Just time consuming.
-S
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Dude, I've said at least twice, including in the last post here, that I'm going to put tiles between painted floor joists.
That would be a custom drop ceiling, not drywall or anything permanent.
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Chad, I know you're more of DIYer than you're letting on here. You're more than capable of framing, doing the drywall and taping & mudding. There's nothing about it that's terribly difficult. Just time consuming.
In this case I'm more of an "I understand the concepts but when I try it it will come out ---smurfy--- just like most of my house projects" guy.
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If I can do it, surely anybody can do it. :)
-S
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Fair enough. At this point I'm in the "clearing out the tons and tons of stuff down there" stage... but since we have such strict trash laws, that really means Freecycling as much of it as I can, which takes a while.
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That's actually not too bad... looks a little claustrophobic down there but that may just be the pics.
It's probably got something to do with his drop ceiling too. His ceilings are about 7'. The main run for the furnace also is framed in, so that takes away some of it. It's really just working around what's there and trying to maximize space. The main heating duct was set up as somewhat of a room divider. Everything in the bar/living area was built "open" with no walls or anything to alleviate space issues. I've got a pic of the outside of the house to give an idea of how much room is down there, but it came out TERRIBLE. Something from the other side without any light would give a better idea and if I can remember to take it, I will.
He hates the popcorn finish as well, since it flakes off or kids like picking it off ::) Standard paint like you want is easiest, but some folks just want something "different"
Insulating the floor like he did takes away ~ 3 inches - I didn't take a pic of the floor. :-\
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I was worried about celing height also on my basement. So I replaced all my galvanized plumbing with copper ran a bunch of extra wire, and a pvc tube up between the joist. The PVC was to run my projector cable and I drywalled the celing. I know, possible water leak ect.... but it has been drywalled for over 2 years and no problems, knock on wood. I like the clean look of drywalled celings and I ran a crap load of 4" cans on dimmers for the diffrent "sections" of the basement. To be honest it dosent feel like a basement but another room of the house. As for your floors, i suggested vinyle tile before, cheap and super easy to install. I wanted to just stain my concrete floors for a kinda industrial look but the floor already had a vinyle floor and I couldn't get the old glue off. Maybe staining your esisting concrete floors could be a way to go, or go with vinyle tile and area rugs like i did, makes clean up real easy. Another idea for you celing would be tongue and groove 1/2 X 4 inch cedar, makes a nice finish and is easy to pull down if you need to get up into the celing. Your basement than could be a huge humidor! ;DJust some ideas.
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The floors probably have to be insulated at least a little. It's very cold down here in the winter.