The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Project Announcements => Topic started by: Rook3 on August 10, 2005, 10:45:56 pm
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I've been itching to build a dedicated Visual Pinball/Pinmame cabinet, but I'm really against adding extra buttons to allow the "nudge" movement.
So, I figured, why don't I make a mock up to see if I can engineer a buttonless nudge system.
Had half a sheet of scrap MDF from some kitchen work, so it became the victi... I mean Volunteer.
Total cost in this project thus far is about $5.50, the cost of a darn 1 1/8" spade bit. You'd think I'd have something on hand that would work, but noooooooo. :)
Anyhoo, This was about 4-6 hours work from start to finish. Still have to completely figure out the nudge mechanism. I'm thinking of "free floating" the controls and having an internal switch assembly to register the nudges.
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin1.jpg)
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin2.jpg)
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin3.jpg)
Russ
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Try taking a look at this...
http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_vdt.shtml
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=35969.0
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what are you using for the front plunger? Does that actually activate a switch? I have through about making a pinmame machine, but want to be able to use a real plunger with it. Is there a way to make a plunger that works really well with pinmame?
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If I remember correctly (which I might not be), the plunger in Visual Pinball is a button and the long the button is pressed down, then the farther it simulates a plunger being pulled back. When the button is released (ie: no long pressed), then the plunger hits the ball.
If this is correct, then uses a real plunger does not seem it would be to difficult. Basically, when the plunger is pulled backwards let it activate a microswitch. Keep pulling the plunger backwards keep the microswitch activated long and long. When the plunger is released then this would result in microswitch no long be activated. This should work well for Visual Pinball.
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Your VP cabinet is looking great. Are you going to have a lockdown bar and apron too? I'll be interested in how you'll do the nudges, as I haven't added nudge controls to mine yet.
what are you using for the front plunger?
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Your VP cabinet is looking great. Are you going to have a lockdown bar and apron too? I'll be interested in how you'll do the nudges, as I haven't added nudge controls to mine yet.
what are you using for the front plunger?
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well.... after reading your post, 1 thing I thought of is instead of hanging the metal ball with a string or something....
hang it with a spring... then the ball might have a tedency to bounce back and stay in the center, instead of just swinging around....
(but don't know if this is good or not... just top of my head...)
you can also try the mercury switch..... (that's usually for tilting...)
but if you lay it almost flat.... it might work.....
good luck....
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Well, I'll start at the beginning of the list... :)
what are you using for the front plunger? Does that actually activate a switch?
That's an actual pinball plunger shaft I had on hand. It has an "E" clip on the front, a pinball plunger spring in front, and a washer against the cab wall. On the outside is another washer, and a spring, then the pull handle. The spring is too weak though. Right diameter, wrong thickness, so it crushes easily. I used part of a pinball coil sleeve so the plunger wouldn't just wear on the bare wood hole in the cab. I plan on running all switches through an IPac controller board which should give me every keystroke combo I could ever need.
Is there a way to make a plunger that works really well with pinmame?
Since the "Enter" key is what is usually used to launch a button in pinmame, I'd just do what someone else here did, and use a leaf switch. The longer the button is held, the longer the plunger is pulled back. On games with a fire button style (Indy Jones, Shadow, etc.,), pulling the plunger would auto fire the ball, just as a regular fire button would.
Are you going to have a lockdown bar and apron too? I'll be interested in how you'll do the nudges, as I haven't added nudge controls to mine yet.
I plan on it. Keep in mind that this particular cab is just a preliminary test bed. Once I work out any "kinks" in the design, I plan on making a full size pinball cabinet. :)
I haven't completely worked out the nudge issue, which is really the whole reason I built this. I want to avoid any additional external buttons that you wouldn't have on a regular pinball machine. Things like an exit game button will be on the bottom of the cab where you normally can't see them. :)
I've been given the idea of using the lockdown bar itself, combined with tension springs and switches to do the nudging, and the concept is really growing on me. It seems do-able.
Essentially the bob would sit directly in the middle of these 4 sensors... EXTREMELY close to them, so a bump to the machine would cause it to hit the appropriate sensor depending on which direction you whacked the box. The only issue I see with this is, you whack it hard enough that the bob bounces around and hits multiple sensors as it swings back and forth. That would be a bit innacurate I guess.
Good idea! The accidental bounce issue is what is keeping me from jumping on the mercury switch idea right now. I don't want extra "bounces" if possible.
Good questions and ideas everyone!
Russ
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Great idea! I've been acquiring the parts (lockdown bar, plunger, and legs) as I come across them for the same project. I'm torn between building my own cab, or gutting an old cab.
You've inspired me to build my own! Where's my rubber mallet and duct tape :)
I'm eager to see your results...keep up the good work
John
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How about using a slam switch from an old arcade cab to activate the "nudge"?
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The only issue I see with that is the slam switches were designed to register a severe impact. But being a design mod of a reed switch with a weight attached, it just might work. Again, the whole issue is to have it register an impact, but not "rebound" on the other switches from that impact.
It certainly might work for the forward movement.
Russ
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You just described a real Tilt mechanism, for the most part. The tilt is implemented with a plumb bob inside of a metal circle. When the bob touches the circle, the circuit is closed and the machine is Tilted. Every time you nudge or slam the machine, the bob sways around inside that circle. Nudge it hard enough and it Tilts.
When I was looking through Home Depot the other day, I noticed a tool in the speed-square and rulers section that looked promising.
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Just a minor update. Finally got a pinball lockdown bar on the way... after losing 7 auctions on eBarf. ::)
After I receive that I'll start working out the nudge mechanism.
Russ
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You should have asked, I have a dozen lockdown bars sitting in my garage, I've been tempted to throw them away.
Wade
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Doh! Wish I'd known that. I knew I should have asked here first. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
Put 'em up on eBay. They've been selling for between $5-$15 with $10 shipping.
I ended up paying about $21 shipped. :-\
Russ
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I may have to try that...
Wade
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What is a lockdown bar?
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Are you serious, or joking? ???
If serious, the lockdown bar is a (usually) silver metal bar on the front
edge of a pinball cabinet, above the coin door. It's purpose is to lock the playfield glass in place.
Russ
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Some people have asked about buying a bar, so I'm going to post pics here. Plus, it illustrates what a lockdown is. :)
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(http://www.pcpinball.com/news/screenshots/a0087-sensitivepropinball.gif)
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Tilt assembly 10$ each from happs (http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/pinball/95032800.htm)
no reason to reinvent the wheel after all ;)
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Yeah, that is what I described, a real tilt mechanism.
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(http://www.hyperware.com/pub/pl/pl003.jpg)
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(http://www.hyperware.com/pub/pl/pl003.jpg)
that looks like either a printer piece of paper taped on there, or a semi large lcd screen :) Though I have a hunch its a screen since it looks like a Sony logo on the left there
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That's Foley's (Ultracade) "prototype". It's a crt.
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Tilt assembly 10$ each from happs (http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/pinball/95032800.htm)
no reason to reinvent the wheel after all ;)
It's not the 'tilt' I need to work on, it's the 'nudge' aspect of the game construction.
I can tilt VP easily by just nudging too much. ;)
Russ
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Tilt assembly 10$ each from happs (http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/pinball/95032800.htm)
no reason to reinvent the wheel after all ;)
It's not the 'tilt' I need to work on, it's the 'nudge' aspect of the game construction.
I can tilt VP easily by just nudging too much. ;)
Russ
What I mean is use the tilt switch for your 'nudge' aspect. All it is is a motion switch, what you connect it to is up to you ;)
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It wouldn't work as a nudge... it's not directional, it's just any contact at all to a single switch.
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Just use a regular tilt bob, but put 4 leaf switches around it. So if you push forward, the tilt will move backward and hit the leaf switch. It will take some tweaking to get the sensitivity right, I'm sure, but it should work. You can probably just adjust the bob up and down to tweak it.
Wade
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That would be prone to unwanted nudges when the bob continued to rock around the switches after the first bob. The bob really isn't suited for this, some other solution would be much better.
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That would be prone to unwanted nudges when the bob continued to rock around the switches after the first bob.
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The first thing that comes to mind to me is some type of custom corner cut, where half of the corner is slightly separated and has a leaf switch behind it. That way, you really would nudge the corner of the cabinet to nudge the game.
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The first thing that comes to mind to me is some type of custom corner cut, where half of the corner is slightly separated and has a leaf switch behind it.
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The problem with that is that you don't nudge above the buttons, you nudge under the buttons, on a real pin. At least I do.
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My original design called for having the entire control area about halfway down the height of the coin door, to about 10" from the front of the cabinet to be a "free floating" block that moved switches inside the base of the cabinet.
My new plan is a greatly reduced version of that, with only the lockdown bar moving.
And on a real pin, I actually nudge the lockdown bar. Well, it's locked down, so it nudges the cabinet. I've never had one come loose or anything, so it works for me. :)
Russ
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Man, on a really heavy machine, like Twilight Zone, you'd have to get a running start to nudge with the lockdown bar.
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Received my Ultimarc shipment today. Ouch! I'm not going to be buying anything for a while now methinks.
Messed around with their encoder/CP layout software and this should work just fine. Pretty slick little piece of software.
Russ
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I bet when those Ultracade pinball cabs come out, they'll show a good nudging solution.
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That's the difference between little 'ol me, working alone, and Ultracade working with a team. ;)
I'm quite interested in how they'll work it out. Up to this point all coin op video pinball machines that featured a nudge function had a dedicated moveable control panel device to replicate that feature. Atari's video pinball, Sega's Time Scanner... and that other one who's name escapes me at the moment. I never did build up my own Time Scanner's panel, so this will be sort of a "see, you can do it" situation for me. :)
Russ
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I bet when those Ultracade pinball cabs come out, they'll show a good nudging solution.
Probably so. We are talking about a DIY solution, but if someone were going to make several units and didn't mind putting a little money into it, a cheap G-meter could be used as a interface to software, to accurately be used for both Tilts and Nudges.
This is probably the way real pinballs would do it, if pinballs every pick up in popularity again or we see any type of modern progress with them. It could be superior to a mechanical tilt bob in many ways.
Wade
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He said it will use a dual axis G-meter. That's why I've been critical of it. You can't beat on a crt.
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I'm not familiar with what that is... I can make an educated guess, but how does the meter make its readings?
You can't beat on a CRT inside a cab anyway. When you nudge the cab, the whole cab moves, saving the CRT from any type of shock. If you couldn't punch or slap a cab without breaking the CRT then very few video cabs would have survived more than a few weeks on location.
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Your educated guess is the same as my educated guess ;). No details were provided.
With an upright, it's pretty rare to hit it hard enough to move it. Pins get moved all the time by beating on them. Plus a pin gets beat on more often than an upright. Pretty much constantly during play. I'd say an upright is like putting a TV on the kitchen counter and smacking the countertop. A CRT pin is like slapping the TV directly.
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With an upright, it's pretty rare to hit it hard enough to move it.
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What about one of those thingies they use on touch lamps. Hook it up to the lockdown bar. So you just have to touch the lockdown to "nudge". Downside would be that you couldn't just rest your hand across that bar while playing.
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You mean run voltage through the lockdown bar... yeah, not a good idea.
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In interesting note:
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2005/sb20050331_4850_sb040.htm
It's an interview of Gary Stern regarding pinball machines done on March 31, 2005. Stern is the last pin maker (besides Foley coming in now).
And what if another company tried to enter the pinball market? "One of two things would happen," Stern says. "One is they would lose all of their money. The second is they might kill us because there's room for one. We're striving towards 10,000 machines a year, our breakeven is 65% or 70% of that. If somebody else came in, they would bring us to breakeven or below -- and maybe kill us both."
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It's an interview of Gary Stern regarding pinball machines done on March 31, 2005.
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Yeah, I agree. I see the reasoning behind what he says though. If there is only demand for 10,000 units (his optimistic view), then all the manufacturers will have to split that "pie". He's saying there isn't enough demand to warrant further investment. Whether that's true... we'll find out.
That link is for Mr. Pinball whom I *believe* is Foley's partner (I'm not sure if I read that somewhere or if I've only thought it to myself). That's why I don't understand Foley when he says he's been working on this with them for 3-years. They've only had a license themselves for 1. Plus they're in Australia, making shipping anything other than software expensive. I think Mr. Pinball has rights for mechanical reproduction & Foley has the right for electrical reproduction. I don't think either has exclusive rights, but I could be wrong. There's a first time for everything ;).
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What Stern is saying is that "there is only room for one, and I want to make sure it is me, so please don't compete with me and potentially put me out of business." Wuss. If he can't make better pins than some newcomer then he should be in business.
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The sad fact is that unless you have an arcade in a MAJOR metro center, it takes forever for a pinball to pay for itself. But all this discussion is neither here nor there. :)
I've got my prototype almost completely wired up to my IPAC2.
I found a bit of software that allows me to reconfigure the buttons in VPinmame to whatever I want (much like what you can do with regular mame) so I'm on the way.
I used someone else's idea and rigged a small roller microswitch to the coin reject button, which is wired to the "5" (insert coin) button. It's stuck to the location with double sided foam tape. It works pretty well. I don't know how permanent it is, but it's a simple work around for right now.
I still need to find some time to mock up the nudging mechanism.
More lame in progress pics soon.
Russ
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I'm following this thread with interest since I have almost exactly the same vapourware idea in my head but am waiting to stumble across a gutted pinball cabinet that would make the starting point--I figured that buying legs, lockbars,coin doors, plungers--all separately was going to kill my non-existant budget. Keep the pics coming!
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There was a gutted Star Wars on ebay like 2 weeks ago. The guy had redone the basic cabinet but had no insides. Had I known... :angel:
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Heh, I saw that one too, but in MY opinion he wanted too much for a bare cabinet.
Russ
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There's probably a better place for this, but I thought I would post it here since this is the thread I contacted wade from, but I bought some pinball lock down bars from wade, and he was awsome to work with. It's honest guys like him that make this the best community on the net. Thanks again wade, the bars came yesterday.
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It's time for my 3 cents in this...
A multi-table video pinball machine makes about as much commercial sense as a multi-classic video game upright. Yeah, they might convince a few operators to buy on the basis of "you get many pinball tables but only use up the space of one", but I don't see the public wanting to play this more than a couple times out of curiosity.
Rook, I hope you're on salary and not banking it all on in a profit-share scenario. Those arrangements rarely pay off what the suits claim. (I've been there)
I'd also cut costs wherever possible and that would include the "nudging". I'd add maybe 3 buttons for nudging (one on each side and one on the front) but nothing that encourages actual physical banging and shoving of the unit. I'm not worried about CRT damage like some in here are, but you're still going to see damage over time since that unit is likely to be much lighter than a full size real pinball machine.
Yeah, I'm playing Devil's Advocat here but I have a pretty good feel for these things. On the flip side, if they can partner up with a company in Japan, then maybe there's hope for this, since I could see there being more demand and success in Japan if the price is reasonable.
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PS: Whatever happened to THIS: http://www.pinballnews.com/news/virtual.html
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Dude, think about how much that LCD cost in 2003.
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PS: Whatever happened to THIS:
They're selling mainly in Europe as far as I can tell.
A multi-table video pinball machine makes about as much commercial sense as a multi-classic video game upright. Yeah, they might convince a few operators to buy on the basis of "you get many pinball tables but only use up the space of one", but I don't see the public wanting to play this more than a couple times out of curiosity.
The Ultracade we have makes about $30 a week. Oddly enough, games like Final Fight make the most money on the cabinet. I'm about ready to offer a challenge to anyone who can score 50,000 points on Qix. I've been playing that game exclusively for two weeks now, and the highest I was able to get was 30,050. Darn frustrating game!
I'd also cut costs wherever possible and that would include the "nudging". I'd add maybe 3 buttons for nudging (one on each side and one on the front) but nothing that encourages actual physical banging and shoving of the unit. I'm not worried about CRT damage like some in here are, but you're still going to see damage over time since that unit is likely to be much lighter than a full size real pinball machine.
In MY opinion adding buttons detracts from the "pinball feel." I don't think you'll really see damage to the machine. If they construct it like a real table, with wood blocking in the corners, I don't see damage resulting... unless someone gets REALLY physical with it.
And if they did in my store I'd tell 'em to quit it. ;)
It takes a lot of abuse to damage amusement cabinetry. Most damage occurs if people hit/kick the coin door, speakers, monitor glass, header, etc.
On the route we've had people punch the header on a standard game, breaking the marquee. We've had thieves/vandals bust open coin doors. That's the nature of the business. Some people are just animals.
Russ
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Couple more bad pics.
First one of the reject button coin switch...
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin4.jpg)
And the location of the IPAC-2 board. I actually turned it 45 degrees to make it easier to see all the connections. Before It was a bear seeing what the connections were on the bottom edge.
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin5.jpg)
(http://www.rookscastle.com/photos/pin6.jpg)
Got the auxiliary button issue sort of "fixed." For no apparent reason, the upper right flipper button would NOT allow itself to be reconfigured, so I was forced to go into the table code and do it by hand.
The Shadow (My test table) works almost perfectly now. I still need to wire up the plunger correctly (It's connected to a standard push button inside the cab...) and then tackle the nudging mech.
Russ
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Hrm, I don't see the pics.
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I can see 'em. I've heard others from time to time have the same problem.
Odd.
Russ
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Any updates here? No pressure :D
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Sorry, been busy. Plus, I just got a real pinball. :)
Been thinking about the project though.
Russ
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Anyone thought of something like this.
Drawn in plan.
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Yeah, that is very similar to something I've suggested (maybe not here, I forget), which is to have a gap like that in the corners themselves, or maybe just a panel in each corner.
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Maybe not realistic but....
"Analyzing the vibration signal from an accelerometer does not always require expensive or complicated analysis equipment. Built in signal conditioning in the model MA15, MA321, MA322 and MA52 accelerometers provides a 4-20mA output that is proportional to the RMS vibration value. This built in signal conditioning means that with only a 4-20mA meter hooked up to your accelerometer you can be monitoring vibration, quickly, easily and cheaply"
http://www.sensotec.com/catpages.shtml
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I'm going to bump this because I really wanted to see where it would go.
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Here is an bump idea so simple you would wish you had of thought of it earlier :)
(http://www.routec.com.au/btidea2.jpg)
or
(http://www.routec.com.au/btidea.jpg)
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Man, on a really heavy machine, like Twilight Zone, you'd have to get a running start to nudge with the lockdown bar.
You can still nudge, and need too sometimes like when you hit the clock target to stop the ball from dropping straight down the middle.
I still haven't mastered doing a bangback yet though. And you REALLY have to hammer the machine for that to work (And I don't want to break mine :P )
3MB video here: http://www.ipdb.org/files/2684/Bally_1993_Twilight_Zone_Bang_Back_video.mpg
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That's a cool idea WWW
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It's the same as the plumb bob... the ball will go one way, then bounce back and hit another switch, nudging the thing in multiple directions.
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Whatever :-X
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Well being a total "noob" to pinball (never got into pinball sorry) this is just a thought.
Attaching microswitchs to the bottom of the front legs so that when you bump the pinball, you would probably get the legs lifting off the floor ever so slightly (am i wrong?)
If nudged from the front you would get the front legs two legs lift, if from the left, the left front leg at least would lift, and same with the right. Now with those microswitchs and a few relays you could have a circuit that switchs left-center-right when you bump the cabinet.
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A good thought... you'd have to account for the fact that the switches are not designed to bear weight, though.
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Not that i've tried either but I think WWW's wood block looking idea has a higher chance of success--if you are hitting a machine hard enough for the legs to leave the ground you are working too hard :D
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It's the same as the plumb bob... the ball will go one way, then bounce back and hit another switch, nudging the thing in multiple directions.
Hmm yes I see the problem. Could fixed by using "channels" to keep the ball from bouncing...
Plus it's been mentioned already but there's the "wire" type switches pinball machines use in lanes. There's potential here, it just needs fine-tuning.
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How about mercury switches? Mount them on a angle, three of them, nudge forward, right and left. Use a plastic wire holder to secure them to the structure.
This is what I'm going to use once I start on mine.. if the coin door ever gets here.
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I thought mercury was a "banned" substance for some reason? have any links to the switches you had in mind?
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I thought mercury was a "banned" substance for some reason?
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Well I'm not sure just how banned it might be but I can still buy thermostats for my furnace that use a mercury switch. I have three mercury switches that I keep wrapped up and inside film bottles till I use them. I have kids and I don't want them breaking them open. I remember playing with this stuff in grade 3.. times have changed.. Anyways once I have them mounted I'm encapsulated them in some sort of plastic/silicone with a note that there is mercury inside.. the stuff ain't great for the environment. Some don't care but I still would want someone to know its there.