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Main => Monitor/Video Forum => Topic started by: AMIGrAve on March 31, 2004, 08:31:31 am

Title: Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: AMIGrAve on March 31, 2004, 08:31:31 am

Hi all,

I'm back with silly questions.  ;D

I booted up my cab under debian and I was surprised to see that everything worked !
I was happy to see that playing on a mame cab is as cool as I had imagined !
Now I would like to do some fine tuning about video, because all images, whatever resolution i use
is visually cropped because it goes further the visible size of the screen on the left.
I use the bios screen as a reference for that (I don't know if I shouldn't)
I use an ArcadeVGA and a J-Pac.

So I hunted the horizontal size plot, but I can't find it on my monitor. The monitor is supposed to be a 25k7193, I can see it on a metal frame under the board.	(http://amigrave.com/upload/posts/arcade_box/25k7193/DSC01075.JPG)
For some reason, I think it's a hacked board or something, perhaps it's not the original board or monitor or both. But I have no knowledge in monitors so I'm not sure. The first reason why I thibk it's not the original is that there's a strange device attached to the board and wired to the place where H-Pos, V-Pos, etc should be on the board. I don't know if constructors do that or if it has been done by a previous owner of that cab.	(http://amigrave.com/upload/posts/arcade_box/25k7193/DSC01050.JPG)
The second reason is that the board doesn't really look like it should in the pictures I found on this site :    http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/WG_25k7191/ (http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/WG_25k7191/)	(http://amigrave.com/upload/posts/arcade_box/25k7193/DSC01071.JPG)
But as I said, I don't have knowledge of monitors, so I don't know if the boards should be identical or if these two pictures means that they are only slightly difference in the wiring or something. I can see a lot similitudes, but they are not perfectly identical.	(http://amigrave.com/upload/posts/arcade_box/25k7193/WG_25k7191_diagram.JPG)
Anyway, on the previous picture, we can see a "Horiz Size" *thing*. I looked on my board, and in a hardly accessible place, I found that (picture on the left). Do you think it might be the horizontal plot I'm searching for ?     I do not dare to touch it because it is hardly accessible, I'm not sure of what I'm doing and I hear the sound of electricity going everywhere around my hand so I'm afraid :)     But if someone here owns a k7093 and can confirm that it is the horizontal plot	(http://amigrave.com/upload/posts/arcade_box/25k7193/DSC01068.JPG)

Thanks in advance for your help and i'm sorry to be so timorous.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: menace on March 31, 2004, 09:29:38 am

I just went through this with mine so you are in luck  ;D

The strange device is just an up front board--its perfectly ok since it's manufactured by wells gardner as well--it's just a convenience feature so that you can tune the monitor while you are looking at it--i love that little thing.

As far as going off the left side of the screen--is the screen too big or just off center?  if its off center adjust the horizontal position pot (bottom left pot in your picture of the up front board).  You can also adjust the horizontal hold pot on the board itself (its at the back where all the rest of th pots were supposed to be until they were moved to the up front board).  If its too big, then you'll need to adjust the horizontal size using a special plastic torx bit available from bobroberts (don't use a metal one because it will effect the output and it will likely damage the ferrite core of that little sucker).

As far as testing with the AVGA goes you're never really going to be sure how its supposed to look until you have it setup properly.  If you are sure its configured properly then its ok to start from that point.  If you could use a known good dedicated game and plug it into that, you would have a known good starting point since their resolutions and screen sizing are all done on the board and any wonkiness would be the fault of the monitor.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: Ken Layton on March 31, 2004, 12:02:55 pm

You do indeed have a 25K7193 monitor. The normal K7000 series manual should be used in conjunction with the 25K7191/7193 schematic.

That little board with the adjustments on it is a factory original equipment. It's called the P632 "Remote Adjustment Board" (a.k.a. "Upfront Controls"). The earliest versions of the K7000 series had all the adjustment pots on the main board. When 25" monitors started becoming popular, alot of game operators and techs complained to Wells-Gardner that the now much heavier cabinets made it very difficult for some technicians to jockey the cabinet around to get to the the controls to adjust the picture. So during the production run, Wells made changes to the monitors and moved the most often used controls to a little remote board that was conveniently mounted inside the game either near the coin door or by the control panel latches. The remote board's harness is hardwired at the main monitor board, yet the remote board itself is unpluggable. WARNING: Never attempt to operate the monitor without the remote board connected. Damage to the monitor's circuitry WILL result!
There are many mounting variations in the K7000 series so your third picture is also correct. Some chassis may be screwed to a piece of wood and be a normal horizontal (a.k.a. "shelf") mount while others may be a "universal" or "drop-in" frame mount. On those types the metal chassis pan (bottom plate) may be offset to the left or right of the picture tube depending on specific model number.

Your fifth picture is indeed the width coil (a.k.a. "horiz size") and the ferrite slug in yours is shown cranked way out to maximum width. Turn it inwards (clockwise) to reduce the width. Radio Shack # 64-2220 (around $3) Plastic Alignment Tool set is what you use to adjust this coil. Wells-Gardner may have glued the slug in place so if it doesn't turn easily, blow hot air from a hair dryer on it for around 5 minutes to soften the glue. Naturally do this while the monitor is turned off. The normal adjustment range of picture width on screen ids usually a max of 1/2 inch at the sides.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: AMIGrAve on April 01, 2004, 05:02:21 am

Thanks for your replies dudes !

Menace: indeed, the picture is not simply off-centered but it is just too big tho fit on the monitor screen. When you say I should not use a metal tool in order to adjust the hor-size, you mean the case if the monitor is plugged in ? If it's not powered, can I try to adjust with a metal tool ?


Ken: So you confirm that this plot is the horizontal size plot. I'll try to buy the Plastic Alignment Tool set (no Radioshack in my country). Can I do this setup while the monitor is powered on ? (ps: I just realized while looking at your nick, that I mailed you about this two days ago ;-) you can ignore this mail of course)

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: Ken Layton on April 01, 2004, 10:41:43 am

The hex hole in the ferrite slug in the horiz size coil is always metric. If the power is off you could carefully use a metal metric Allen wrench (hex key) to turn the slug. Never use a metal one when the power is on.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: tenex2mg on April 07, 2004, 12:25:10 am

Wow guys very imformative posts, I fear my previous post might have been in vain, can that remote board be purchased separatley?  Either through WG directly or maybe RadioShack or similar store?   (H-Pos pot was damaged in transit) which may be the root of my problems...my monitor is the 7194.  But what I don't understand is why it works ok with my ArcadeVga +MAME just not with my dreamcast....very strange.  Basically the image is scrolling every so slightly and is shifted off center by about 50%.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: Ken Layton on April 07, 2004, 01:03:56 am

You can only get the P632 remote adjustment circuit board from Wells-Gardner (I think the whole thing only costs $10). You can also buy just the replacement trimpot to repair your board from both Wells-Gardner (www.wellsgardner.com) and Bob Roberts (www.therealbobroberts.com).

If ordering parts from Wells-Gardner, it's best to phone them rather than order on the website.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: menace on April 07, 2004, 12:27:12 pm

last I checked the upfront boadr was $18+Shipping--I just made my own--email me if you want the wiring traces.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: JoeB on April 07, 2004, 02:24:26 pm

That front board is a PAIN!

I broken one of the pots on it by mistake as I was installing the CP.  I had to wait 2 weeks to get a new replacement pot from Bob because they're no where to be found around here!   :-\

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: menace on April 07, 2004, 03:39:20 pm

next time--call starburst--i got them for 1.00 ea. and picked them up at the auction--they order them direct from WG.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: Ken Layton on April 07, 2004, 05:39:10 pm

Actually, I get mine from Mouser Electronics for 41 cents each (I buy in the 10 quantity).

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: AMIGrAve on April 13, 2004, 12:56:29 pm

Quote from: JoeB on April 07, 2004, 02:24:26 pm

That front board is a PAIN!

I broken one of the pots on it by mistake as I was installing the CP.  I had to wait 2 weeks to get a new replacement pot from Bob because they're no where to be found around here!   :-\

Well, if you look at the second picture of this post, you can see that I replaced the BLK LEVEL plot. It was broken when I bought the cab. I bought a 2K5 om plot instead of a 2k om plot but it's working great. You are not forced to buy exactly the same as the original plot. Replacing a plot on this front board is not a big deal, and the cost is very low.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: AMIGrAve on April 13, 2004, 02:13:13 pm

Quote from: Ken Layton on March 31, 2004, 12:02:55 pm

Radio Shack # 64-2220 (around $3) Plastic Alignment Tool set is what you use to adjust this coil.

By the way, I asked a lot of stores in Brussels/Belgium, they all said I couldn't find this tool in Belgium !  :'(

So I would like to know if someone here would have the kindness to buy this tool for me and send it to me. If yes, I would send the money first by post or by paypal (still have to check this). So, if one of you is voluntary to help me, I'm around ! ;-)

Thanks.

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: menace on April 13, 2004, 09:35:24 pm

If no brits or other europeans help you out--let me know--I'm sure we could work out something (so long as you have paypal)

Just doing my bit for world harmony ;D

Title: Re:Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: subcriminal on April 17, 2004, 06:25:51 pm

http://slot-tech-ftp.serveftp.com:8080/monitors/adjusting%20monitors/adjusting%20monitors.htm

Title: Re: Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: dax on December 22, 2005, 02:58:16 am

Another good thread I dug up from searching... I too have this monitor, but the problem I have is vertically and not horizontally.  I am running 800x600 with the ArcadeVGA and JPAC but the bottom part of the screen is obscured and the vertical size pot doesn't turn far enough to make the last bit of the bottom of the screen visible.  Is there a pot elsewhere that can adjust this setting?

Also, what resolution should you run this monitor in from Windows?  It seems this has something to do with how mame switches resolutions and modes.  When I ran at 640x480 with Mame32, the vertical games were super-tiny, but when I ran at 800x600, they came out looking pretty nice, but the horizontal games were perfect at 640x480.  I couldn't get the res utility to run under Win98.

Does anyone have a recommended front end for this type of setup?  I am thinking maybe Mame32 isn't the best choice, but maybe it is if I can get the 800x600 mode properly displayed? 

Title: Re: Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: AMIGrAve on December 22, 2005, 05:31:59 am

Does your low resolutions (3xx X 2xx) are working OK for horizontal games ?
If yes, I guess your 800x600 problem should be resolved in a software way (eg: modelines)
I'm not 100% sure, I'm not used to windows so if I'm wrong could someone please correct me ?

I guess there are some front-ends for windows but I don't know them.

Personally, I would use a low resolution front-end (eg: 320x240) in order to keep the original feeling of the arcade monitor. But this is only a mather of taste. And indeed, displaying vertical games on a 15Khz monitor is a problem. This is why I bought another cab with a rotating screen  ;D

Title: Re: Hard to find Horizontal size on a 25k7193
Post by: dax on December 22, 2005, 02:28:07 pm

The low res horizontal games look exactly like the original.  Very nice...

What front end do you recommend?  I can't seem to get ArcadeOS to work properly.. the screen comes out all whacked and I can't figure out why yet.